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On January 07 2012 09:15 Alzadar wrote:
Oh god, Mordekaiser is BRUTAL to lane against. I've never felt so helpless as Pantheon before.
We won the game though. Built Hexdrinker, ignored Morde and dived their squishies.
...really?!?!?!? how?!?!?!
you should be able to trash him at lvl 1 and he can't do jack shit to you since his shield generation is absolutely terrible until he hits like ~lvl 5 but by then you should have a really good exp and item advantage over him... if you play even remotely passive against morde and let him get spellvamp or be equal level/gold with you then yes, you're going to get wrecked.
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Canada5009 Posts
On January 07 2012 10:10 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 09:15 Alzadar wrote:
Oh god, Mordekaiser is BRUTAL to lane against. I've never felt so helpless as Pantheon before.
We won the game though. Built Hexdrinker, ignored Morde and dived their squishies. ...really?!?!?!? how?!?!?! you should be able to trash him at lvl 1 and he can't do jack shit to you since his shield generation is absolutely terrible until he hits like ~lvl 5 but by then you should have a really good exp and item advantage over him... if you play even remotely passive against morde and let him get spellvamp or be equal level/gold with you then yes, you're going to get wrecked.
I don't see how. He opened Doran's Shield. Siphon of Destruction outranges Spear, does more damage, gives him shield and is only 2 seconds longer CD. After the first time he casts it I basically can't even touch his actual health unless I go balls out aggression, which I won't win because he has more health and can boost his own armor. He beats me right from the get-go at level 1 and it only gets worse as he continues to stack armor.
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United States37500 Posts
Position matters.
Spear when his shield is down. Stay out of creep range when his E is up. If he E's, make him choose between harassing you with it (damage to you, but low shield gain) or E's creep (gives him more shield but you take control of lane).
Getting a NMM before or immediately after your second Doran's wouldn't hurt either.
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Canada5009 Posts
On January 07 2012 10:44 NeoIllusions wrote:
Position matters.
Spear when his shield is down. Stay out of creep range when his E is up. If he E's, make him choose between harassing you with it (damage to you, but low shield gain) or E's creep (gives him more shield but you take control of lane).
Getting a NMM before or immediately after your second Doran's wouldn't hurt either.
Not much of a plan, what if he just saves his E and zones you out? He can get shield from his Q, E anytime you get close and W if you try to commit. Maybe there is some secret way to play the lane, but from my recent experience I'm going to say Mordekaiser hard counters Pantheon.
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On January 07 2012 11:02 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 10:44 NeoIllusions wrote:
Position matters.
Spear when his shield is down. Stay out of creep range when his E is up. If he E's, make him choose between harassing you with it (damage to you, but low shield gain) or E's creep (gives him more shield but you take control of lane).
Getting a NMM before or immediately after your second Doran's wouldn't hurt either. Not much of a plan, what if he just saves his E and zones you out? He can get shield from his Q, E anytime you get close and W if you try to commit. Maybe there is some secret way to play the lane, but from my recent experience I'm going to say Mordekaiser hard counters Pantheon.
one game =/= hard counter
you can just walk into his bushes at level 1 and start throwing spears. Morde is pretty weak early on until about the level where he gets a revolver, and you're Pantheon.
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Canada5009 Posts
On January 07 2012 11:13 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 11:02 Alzadar wrote:On January 07 2012 10:44 NeoIllusions wrote:
Position matters.
Spear when his shield is down. Stay out of creep range when his E is up. If he E's, make him choose between harassing you with it (damage to you, but low shield gain) or E's creep (gives him more shield but you take control of lane).
Getting a NMM before or immediately after your second Doran's wouldn't hurt either. Not much of a plan, what if he just saves his E and zones you out? He can get shield from his Q, E anytime you get close and W if you try to commit. Maybe there is some secret way to play the lane, but from my recent experience I'm going to say Mordekaiser hard counters Pantheon. one game =/= hard counter you can just walk into his bushes at level 1 and start throwing spears. Morde is pretty weak early on until about the level where he gets a revolver, and you're Pantheon.
I know, but it felt so unbelievably helpless, it wasn't just that I was losing. I'd have to play it again, but I'm really unconvinced that it's even playable.
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Maybe you're playing super pro Mordes but I can tell you with like 90% certainty I've never ever lost a lane as Pantheon against a Mordekaiser even before Morde's nerfs unless I get repeatedly ganked or I misplayed the lane.
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as a Morde player, I can't even picture how Morde wouldn't get raped. like level 1, the minions meet, the first minion gets low, I want the last hit but there's an asshole Panth in the way. if I try and go up and siphon it, I get speared, if I siphon the Panth he spears me anyways and I miss the last hit. it sounds so bad that I'd probably be asking for ganks during champion select.
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Canada5009 Posts
Well playing it again right now, perhaps I will redeem myself.
Never mind, Mordekaiser went mid. I stomped an Akali though.
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United States37500 Posts
On January 07 2012 11:02 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 10:44 NeoIllusions wrote:
Position matters.
Spear when his shield is down. Stay out of creep range when his E is up. If he E's, make him choose between harassing you with it (damage to you, but low shield gain) or E's creep (gives him more shield but you take control of lane).
Getting a NMM before or immediately after your second Doran's wouldn't hurt either. Not much of a plan, what if he just saves his E and zones you out? He can get shield from his Q, E anytime you get close and W if you try to commit. Maybe there is some secret way to play the lane, but from my recent experience I'm going to say Mordekaiser hard counters Pantheon.
How does he even zone you?
I just tried explaining this to you. You stand to a flank. Spear him whenever his shield is depleted. If he E's you, he should only hit you and not the creeps.
I've played Mord, his shield is not as durable as you make it sound. The only way it can consistent build up is if he has W on himself and he's standing against a lot of creeps. Outside of that, you should be able to outharass him.
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you must understand that you need to go balls out aggressive with panth on level 1, and if youre not used to being aggressive dont worry about not doing well, just keep trying and discover when/how you should do it
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Also knowing where to stand to avoid him charging a shield + hitting you at the same time is pretty important.
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Canada5009 Posts
On January 07 2012 12:51 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Also knowing where to stand to avoid him charging a shield + hitting you at the same time is pretty important.
That's probably it, I guess.
It's worth pointing our in case you weren't all aware that Mordekaiser's Siphon damage and shield generation were both buffed in the most recent patch.
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On January 07 2012 13:10 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 12:51 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Also knowing where to stand to avoid him charging a shield + hitting you at the same time is pretty important. That's probably it, I guess. It's worth pointing our in case you weren't all aware that Mordekaiser's Siphon damage and shield generation were both buffed in the most recent patch.
Yes, but it's a only 5 damage increase at lvl 1, 10-15 damage increase at lvls 2-3. By the time he gets lvl 4-5 siphon you should already be super far ahead. His shield generation was buffed, but it's still massively nerfed from when Morde would generate full shields off of creep as opposed to 50%.
You should be stomping him starting at lvl 1.
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There's really no way to lose it, either he pushes himself to your tower to stay alive and then you zone him/jungler ganks him or he tries to deal with your spear harass while not pushing the wave and still last hitting. It should be really, really hard for him.
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morde has always been a free matchup. dunno if I've ever lost it. when he doesn't have shield charged, don't let him charge it for free, it's really pretty straight forward.
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If he plays it correctly, wouldn't a flank position set you up for getting ganked more easily, tho? Well, ganks are always a thing to account for as Panth, since if you do your job your opponent should ask for it, but until I get a ward I'd rather not paint a target on myself.
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On January 07 2012 18:54 Alaric wrote:
If he plays it correctly, wouldn't a flank position set you up for getting ganked more easily, tho? Well, ganks are always a thing to account for as Panth, since if you do your job your opponent should ask for it, but until I get a ward I'd rather not paint a target on myself.
Pantheon is always an easy gank because he plays very agressive and on top of that he has like no escape. If you're lucky you can W on their jungler and escape, but if the enemy has some form of cc like a slow/stun you're dead anyways.
I don't know if there's a cv in your games(I still think it's great and always will), but if there is, if you're purple just cv wraiths/red so you know if the jungler is ganking top or not, if you're blue side and the enemy jungler starts blue you should be good aswell.
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On January 07 2012 18:54 Alaric wrote:
If he plays it correctly, wouldn't a flank position set you up for getting ganked more easily, tho? Well, ganks are always a thing to account for as Panth, since if you do your job your opponent should ask for it, but until I get a ward I'd rather not paint a target on myself.
How would a flank position set you up for a gank? Assuming you're in top lane, you can flank him to the side using bushes. If he camps that side, then you might have to position yourself near the river, which I suppose is riskier, but you should have full ward coverage of your lane after your first back.
Whenever you back as Pantheon, you should try to make it a point to buy a ward since Pantheon gets ganked so often and relatively easily due to lack of solid escape.
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Yes, I was mostly talking before the first back, when you don't have wards. Also, against junglers with a good gap closer, being in the bush can put you quite far from your tower, especially if you're purple side.
But it's been my rule since my 2nd game as Panth to buy a ward and one-two pots each time I back, in addition to my normal stuff (doran, blade thingy leading to bruta, etc.). Playing like Mogwai described really gives a good flow to it, since you should thus be killing your opponent/making him back frequently, backing yourself after you shoved the lane.
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EPT
