Aegis of Zeonia mana cost reduced to 55 from 70 Grand Skyfall mana cost reduced to 125 from 150
v1.0.0.123 - 2011-08-09
Heartseeker Strike Now does a better job of hitting targets on top of Pantheon Damage increased to 13/23/33/43/53 from 4/6/8/10/12 Scaling adjusted to a .6 bonus Attack Damage ratio from a .2/.25/.3/.35/.4 total Attack Damage ratio Now fires 3 strikes instead of 5 Cooldown reduced to 10/9/8/7/6 seconds from 18/17/16/15/14 seconds Mana cost reduced to 45/50/55/60/65 from 70 at all ranks Channel duration reduced to .75 seconds from 1.8 seconds Spear Shot Damage increased to 65/105/145/185/225 from 16/28/40/52/64 Now scales off of a 1.4 bonus Attack Damage ratio from a 1/1.15/1.3/1.45/1.6 total Attack Damage ratio Certain Death now causes Spear Shot to critically strike for 1.5x damage Aegis of Zeonia Cooldown adjusted to 13/12/11/10/9 seconds from 12 seconds at all levels Stun duration adjusted to 1 second from .7/.9/1.1/1.3/1.5 Pantheon will now attempt to attack the target after using Aegis of Zeonia Grand Skyfall Jump channel time reduced to 2 seconds from 3 seconds Land time reduced to 1.5 seconds from 2 seconds Edge damage increased to 50% from 33%
v1.0.0.122 - 2011-07-26
Grand Skyfall now has a range of 5500
v1.0.0.118 - 2011-05-10
Fixed a bug where casting Aegis of Zeonia from max range would sometimes fail to stun or damage the target (unrelated to terrain)
v1.0.0.115 - 2011-04-11
Aegis Protection now shows an alternate run animation for Pantheon while active
v1.0.0.114 - 2011-03-28
Fixed a bug where Aegis Protection triggered after every 4 attacks, but every 5 spell casts (reduced casts required to 4)
v1.0.0.111 - 2011-02-16
Heartseeker Strike now deals damage slower - it takes 0.5 seconds longer to deal full damage Grand Skyfall now has a small area near the center that deals full damage (previously it was impossible to deal full damage to any target)
v1.0.0.109 - 2011-01-17
Aegis of Zeonia stun duration reduced to 0.7/0.9/1.1/1.3/1.5 from 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 seconds
v1.0.0.108 - 2011-01-03
Grand Skyfall is now more visible to allies. The green circle that allies see now appears when Pantheon starts channeling. The red circle that enemies see still draws when he leaps into the air
v1.0.0.107 - 2010-12-14
Spear Toss base damage reduced at earlier ranks to 16/28/40/52/64 from 20/31/42/53/64 Heartseeker Spear scaling damage reduced at earlier ranks to 20/25/30/35/40% from 24/28/32/36/40%
v1.0.0.106 - 2010-12-01
Spear Shot base damage reduced to 20/31/42/53/64 from 30/40/50/60/70 Heartseeker Strike attack damage conversion increased to 28/31/34/37/40% from 18/22/26/30/34% Grand Skyfall mana cost reduced to 150 from 150/250/350 Aegis Protection now shows a counter as you build up charges The threshold required to trigger the Aegis Protection now increases with Pantheon's level.
v1.0.0.100 - 2010-09-08
Corrected a display error with Pantheon's auto attack and death recap. Aegis of Zeonia can no longer be cast while rooted Grand Skyfall can no longer be cast while rooted
v1.0.0.99 - 2010-08-24
Fixed a typo in Pantheon's lore
v1.0.0.96 - Season 1 - 2010-07-13
Spear Shot mana cost increased to 45 at all ranks from 30/35/40/45/50 Aegis of Zeonia Cooldown modified to 12 seconds at all ranks from 20/17.5/15/12.5/10 Stun duration changed to 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 from 1.5 Aegis of Zeonia now properly interacts with spell shields Heartseeker Spear Base damage reduced to 4/6/8/10/12 from 6/9/12/15/18 Scaling damage reduced to 18/22/26/30/34% from 20/25/30/35/40% Cooldown reduced to 20/19/18/17/16 from 26/24/22/20/18 Grand Skyfall will now apply smoother damage especially against large targets Grand Skyfall will now properly interact with spell shields General Base health increased to 520 from 505 Base armor increased to 21 from 20.1 Health per level increased to 87 from 85
v1.0.0.94 - 2010-06-24
Heartseeker Strike Fixed a bug where Heartseeker Strike was dealing too much damage based upon your bonus damage. Fixed a bug where Heartseeker Strike procced cast effects with every Heartseeker Strike tick Damage scaling increased to 20/25/30/35/40%. Heartseeker Strike will now properly double the damage of the entire ability against champions, rather than just doubling part of the damage Fixed a bug where Spear Shot wasn't scaling with enough of your damage from items Spear Shot damage scaling increased to 100/115/130/145/160%, from 100/110/120/130/140%. Grand Skyfall now breaks spell shields and is blocked by spell shields. Fixed a bug with Grand Skyfall where it was slowing for an incorrect amount of time Pantheon will now be properly considered melee for the sake of items like Youmuu's Ghostblade
v1.0.0.86 - 2010-06-01
Reduced the summoner spell cooldown so that players can cast summoner spells right after Pantheon completes his Grand Skyfall
v1.0.0.85 - 2010-05-11
Added a new sound to Heartseeker Spear Heartseeker Strike cooldown reduced to 26/24/22/20/18 from 30/28/26/24/22. Grand Skyfall: Fixed a bug that allowed Pantheon to cast Summoner spells before landing Cooldown reduced to 150/135/120 from 180/150/120 Cooldown on channel cancel reduced to 10 from 25 Falling time reduced to 1.5 from 2
v1.0.0.83 - 2010-04-27
Fixed a minor tooltip typo with Heartseeker Aegis of Zeonia is no longer castable while Immobilized
v1.0.0.75 - 2010-02-24
Fixed an issue that would cause Aegis to not stun targets if you did not move as part of the skill
Health ............... 433 (+87) Mana ................ 210 (+34) Attack Damage . 50.7 (+2.9) Attack Speed .... 0.679 (+2.95%) Range .............. 150 Health Regen .... 6.75 (+0.65) Mana Regen ..... 6.6 (+0.45) Armor .............. 17.1 (+3.9) Magic Res ........ 30 (+1.25) Mov. Speed ...... 330
Abilities: Passive - Aegis Protection: After attacking or casting spells 4 times, Pantheon will block the next incoming basic attack.
There's an unlisted threshhold for how high the damage of the attack has to be in order for Pantheon to block it. He'll usually block anything from Champions, Towers, Super Minions, Baron, Dragon, Golem, Lizard, Small Gols, Big Wraith, Big Wolf's crits, and sometimes Seige Minions. This also works on abilities that trigger on-hit effects like Double Up, Parrrrley, Mystic Shot, and Bladesurge. However, it only blocks the basic damage portion of any attack, and will still allow on-hit effects to trigger, so a blocked frost shot will still slow you and a poison shot from teemo will still poison you, etc.
There are all sorts of neat little tricks with this ability for tower diving, such as starting a dive at 3 charges with Q -> W after the first tower shot -> E (cancel it by moving, you're just casting to charge your passive) -> Auto -> Q -> Auto, which will let you block 3 out of 4 tower shots within that time span at low levels. It's stuff like this that makes Pantheon a fantastic tower diver.
Q - Spear Shot: Pantheon hurls his spear at an opponent, dealing 65/105/145/185/225 + 1.4 Bonus AD physical damage.
CD: 4 Mana: 45 Range: 600
Boring, but awesome. 4 second CD, 45 mana ranged nuke with great AD scaling and good base damage. This is Pantheon's bread and butter skill and if you don't like your BnB being a generic nuke, you're gonna have to find a new character. This ability hits like a truck and allows Pantheon to butcher people in lane at low levels, especially alongside his passive. The two together give Pantheon one of the strongest level 1 1v1s in the entire game.
W - Aegis of Zeonia: Pantheon leaps at the target enemy champion and deals 50/75/100/125/150 + 1 AP magic damage and stuns them for 1 second. Pantheon also instantly refreshes his Aegis Protection.
CD: 13/12/11/10/9 Mana: 55 Range: 600
Very low damage and useless scaling on this ability, but hey, it's still a blink + stun rolled into a neat little package and has some nice utility with the instant passive recharge on it, so it's nothing to complain about. This is the very definition of a 1 point wonder, the useful aspects of this spell have very little scaling with levels (only CD really improves that we care about, and it's not great level scaling on the CD anyway).
Aegis also sets up nicely for Heartseeker Strike as a combo. Q->W->E is your midgame combo to completely truck squishies who are out of position.
E - Heartseeker Strike: Passive: Pantheon's basic attacks and Spear Shot gain 100% critical strike chance against targets below 15% health.
Active: Pantheon focuses and deals 3 swift strikes in front of him for 13/23/33/43/53 + 0.6 Bonus AD physical damage per strike. Deals double damage to champions.
CD: 10/9/8/7/6 Mana: 45/50/55/60/65 Range: 600? (leagueoflegends.com says it's 400, leaguecraft.com says it's 780. In my experience it's roughly 600)
While most Passive/Active skills are very closely related, Pantheon's Passive/Active is completely unrelated to itself. The Passive portion is awesome. It's the penultimate Kill Stealing tool (2nd to Demacian Justice) and lets you be super duper lazy with last hitting (especially since Pantheon's crit animation is very very fast and easy to animation cancel out of post-damage). The wording is confusing about the Spear Shot crits, but essentially once you have 1 level in E, your Spear Shots that you throw at people with less than 15% health will do 150% of the regular Spear Shot damage. This will not take bonus crit damage into account, as the game treats this bonus damage as it's own thing, and not as an actual extension of regular critical strike.
The active portion on this skill does a total of 72/132/192/252/312 + 3.6 Bonus AD over 0.75 second to champions. The base damage as a channel is ok, but the real trick is that this has super duper sick AD scaling. Thus, I find the skill pretty mediocre early in the game and then you get a BF Sword and start wtfbbq destroying people with it. The scaling looks worse than the older iterations of this skill, but since the channel has been sped up so greatly, it's actually dishing out much better DPS than before, even if the total damage is lower. The new CD is also just absurdly low. For an AoE nuke that hits that hard, a 6 second CD feels pretty absurd if you can keep yourself alive to get 2-3 of them off per fight.
R - MANDROP: Pantheon gathers his strength and then leaps high into the air, crashing down at the target area a few seconds later. Deals up to 400/700/1000 + 1 AP magic damage to units at the center (down to 50% at the edge) and slows their Movement Speed by 35% for 1 second.
CD: 150/135/120 Mana: 125/125/125 Range: 5500
A fairly long range teleport with a large AoE nuke + slow attached. This skill is pretty far from what it used to be, as the difference in playablity from global to 5500 is staggering, but it's still useful for moving quickly around the map for ganks and enabling you to split from your team and still quickly jump into a fight, you just can't be too far (no more jumping from blue top outer tower to purple bot outer tower).
GUIDES
LANE PANTHEON Summoner Skills: Flash + Ignite Pantheon is a nuker really, so he gains considerably more from ignite than he would from exhaust. Flash is good for the obvious reasons, and also gives you crazy strong spacing with Flash -> Aegis -> Q -> E -> kill vs. weakened opponents.
Runes: Marks: Armor Penetration Seals: Flat Armor or Flat Mana Regen Glyphs: Flat MRes or Scaling MRes or Flat Mana Regen Quints: Flat AD
I like Flat Armor, Scaling MRes because I usually go top. Flat Mana Regen, Flat MRes is best if you go mid. Dunno what else to say, you can flex your Seals/Glyphs as you see fit.
Skill Order: R > Q > E > W QWQEQR to open. Not much else to say, this is pretty much objectively the best way to order your skills, with the only question really being whether the 2nd point in your ult is better than more points in E. I've also toyed with the idea of just skipping my ult until level 12, but I think it's foolish to turn down that option for mobility just to max Heartseeker faster.
Item Build:
Starting Items or + x 3 I favor dblade openings at the moment, but both it and boots are viable.
Core + + + Doran's Blade is just too stupidly efficient to not buy 2. They'll give you crazy good stats for early game. Then get Brutalizer cause Brutalizer gives perfect stats for Pantheon.
What Next Pantheon has boss AD ratios and bloodthirster is the best way to get at these. This item is beast and you should typically get at least one as soon as you can, if not 2. If you are dropping people stupidly fast with just brutalizer and aren't worried about your damage falling off any time soon, you can rush GA to protect your lead. Last Whisper is a great way to punish your lane opponent if they're going balls out armor stacking to counter you (think wriggle's + ninja tabi + chain vest first 3 items). You'll want this late game anyway to do relevant damage to tanks.
Boots Options or or I usually go Mercs, but CDR boots and zerkers both have their merits at increasing your offense. CDR boots will make you a better teamfighter and usually a better duelist too, but Mercs will make you a better split pusher.
Finishing Up Another bloodthirster is a great way to boost your offense. AD is Pantheon's strongest scaling stat, but just realize that if you stack bloodthirsters, you REALLY need to make a point of getting your team to let you charge up your bloodthirsters again if you happen to die, because with 2 bloodthirsters, you're talking about an 80 point AD differential between uncharged and charged thirsters.
GA is the best defensive item on a balls-out offensive build, so get it when you can.
As I said earlier, you need this to counter armor stacking and should probably always have one come late game.
When to get ghostblade is a tricky question, but it's very nice in that it gives you great auto attacking stats for a short duration. When Pantheon resorts to auto attacks, it's typically for a short duration, so getting great value for only 8 seconds is pretty great on him since he wouldn't be using those stats for much longer anyway.
Gives you a nice balance of stats and makes you a much better duelist and chaser, which helps a lot in split pushes since you need to be able to 1v1 people. Whether to get this or a 2nd BT for your last item is a tough call, but I've been generally liking Trinity more as a last item recently.
My Standard Final Item Build + + + + +
Playstyle dblade top Take top lane and FIGHT THEM AT LEVEL 1. Pantheon is a goddamn boss level 1, there is no one who should be able to stand toe-to-toe with dblade Pantheon at level 1. Get first blood or just continually zone them off of creeps by trying to force the issue as they regen off their potions. The key to exerting early lane presence with dblade vs. a potion opening is to not let your opponent sit near creeps while they're potting up. Dblade destroys people, so their only hope is to get mileage out of their potions between exchanges, so make them commit vs. you if they wanna get CS/xp. If they exchange and then camp their tower while you get free farm... GOOD. That's exactly what you want. Now you have a creep advantage and can free farm some more as you approach their tower. When you get to their tower, back off ASAP and go buy some potions and boots. You might miss out on a wave of xp/gold while your opponent doesn't, but guess what? That doesn't matter because they haven't been able to buy yet, so despite being a wave down in XP, you should still be ahead in farm and now they need to deal with you having better items and they're just gonna get zoned again unless they convert their gold into items too, at which point they will have lost their XP advantage anyway. Pantheon - 1, Bad Guy - 0.
dblade vs. cloth
On December 15 2011 04:32 Mogwai wrote: It's simple, you cannot commit to a fight with cloth armor vs. dblade, dblade guy wins every time. So essentially, with dblade, you picks fights and put the responsibility for disengaging on your opponents. Disengaging from dblade Pantheon with cloth armor means you eat an extra spear to the back of the head, every time. It also means that while you pot up, Pantheon builds his passive back up and lifesteals and gains cs and levels on you. This means you simple cannot fight him until the creep wave equalizes so that you catch up in levels and have time to let your pots kick in, which can only happen once it gets to your tower because Pantheon will not let you get into position to shove the wave back without forcing another unfavorable trade. Once he gets you to your tower, Pantheon has an option: 1. he's ahead enough to dive you and kill you (always good for panth, even if he dies because he gets FB gold and you miss out of a ton of XP to the tower murdering his pushing wave) 2. he's not ahead enough to dive you and he backs off to buy. now, this might seem to be like it's a way that he lets you catch back up, but in reality this FUCKS people up because they're usually down 3-4 pots, down in cs from having to last hit under tower at low level and Pantheon returns with bare minimum 3 pots + a ward or even up to boots + that or a 2nd dblade + ward + 1-2 pots. If you try to catch up to him on items, you have to back. If you back, he can push the wave to your tower if his wave is pushing, or even worse he can pull the wave to his tower if your wave is pushing, which lets him safely zone you with a river ward and item advantage.
thing is, that even if they could break completely even with you with cloth + 5 pots, they consumed 175 gold on potions, while you didn't. I don't care if cloth builds into stuff, dblade is stupidly efficient, I wouldn't regret the purchase because they're not looking at the same sort of efficiency from their cloth armor until they get to wriggle's which is 1300 gold down the road, 1650 if they want boots and more realistically ~2000 if they want to ward and get the pots they need to not get butchered like an animal in lane.
boots mid Go mid and throw a lot of spears at their AP carry. After throwing a spear, don't run away, run at them. Nuke trades are like, pretty even between Pantheon and AP carries, so you have to derive your lane advantage by threatening to take the exchange to blows. Force them to back off or eat auto-attacks from you. If they back off, you have boots, so you should be able to run off before they can retaliate when the time is right. Pantheon doesn't seem to dominate most AP carries the way I like to play, so I don't like doing this much, but the big plus of mid is that your ult can quickly get you to either sidelane, so you gotta use that to net some kills if you wanna stay ahead post-6.
bot lane have your lanemate play Leona. Take small gols before heading to lane. when you hit level 2, combo kill one of your lane opponents, then wait for CDs to come back and kill the other one. repeat as necessary until your opponent's rage quit. if your lanemate is too cheap to buy Leona, Taric works as well, but is not nearly as stronk as Leona. + Show Spoiler [Awesome Fake Post From Smashboards] +
Originally Posted by mogwai hey summoners, my name is mogwai, and i own every single one of you. All of you are bad, low elo, wanna-bes who spend every second of their day looking at stupid moba fire guides. You are everything bad in lol. Honestly, have any of you ever gotten any pentakills? I mean, i guess it’s fun feeding because of your own inabilities, but you all take to a whole new level. This is even worse than thinking there is an elo hell. Don’t be a stranger. Just hit me with your best shot. I’m pretty much perfect. I was on team liquid, and pretty much the best jarvan ever. What teams do you play on, other than “random baddies i go to school with”? I also get first bloods, and have a broken bottom lane (she just hit 6 and we got a double kill; **** was so cash). You are all baddies who should just uninstall the game. Thanks for listening.
Pic related: It’s me and my leona.
And yes, that pic is now my facebook picture, lol.
notice that in all these strats, you have to take the game by the balls early. If you wanna sit around and farm up a 10 CS lead on your opponent, don't play Pantheon. he is designed to fuck people up early, so use that to your advantage while you can. New Pantheon scales better than old Pantheon to late game because HSS is so much more reliable now, but he's still designed for early game dominance. Play teamfights like an AP carry who can actually attack to 1v1 or seal the deal on a kill. In other words, focus on positioning such that you get your big nuke combo (Q and E) on a squishy so that you instantly drop them and then duck and weave around the real heart of the fight. You can also play more like an assassin by using MANDROP to enter fights late and from behind so that you can instagib squishies who are staying out of the fray, but you have to be careful because if the opposing team wheels around on you when you MANDROP, you're basically 100% fucked.
If your ap carry doesn't use mana, take blue buff. You're essentially a caster, so having unlimited mana and max CDR is BAWSS, even if it is still generally better on mana casters who are useless between their CDs.
Funny thing is, I used to use a similar build, except i'd start with manemune 0.o. SO much damage, but was way too glass cannon. If our team wasn't already ahead of the other team, i'd be too fragile to actually do anything. GA helps though :D
I guess it's OK if you can get it stupid early but like, I think I'd always rather have a BF sword and a vamp scepter than a manamune, because 900 gold from then, I'll have a bloodthirster, whereas you'll have uhhh.... I dunno, nothing :p.
On August 24 2011 05:32 gtrsrs wrote: wait you start d-blade top? O_o i've been going boots this whole time will try d-blade tonight as i read from the gospel of mogwai 3:16
Yea, I dunno mang. I felt like a nub doing it the first few times and then I never looked back. People just can't afford to stand there and fight a Pantheon with dblade at level 1.
Quick note: A fort potion is an AWESOME buy if you're getting beasted on a little bit by an enemy. Health+ad makes him VERY strong. One of these will completely turn around a bad laning phase.
On August 24 2011 06:02 Two_DoWn wrote: Quick note: A fort potion is an AWESOME buy if your getting beasted on a little bit buy an enemy. Health+ad makes him VERY strong. One of these will completely turn around a bad laning phase.
oh god, why?
also, fort pot changes awhile back made it a lot less attractive in lane. I never do this, though I suppose it could help you crawl back if you let yourself get behind.
As for the pot, it was mainly an investment made in a duo lane when my partner was flat, balls out retarded and got me low before I could afford boots or a dblade. I found the extra umph it gives is actually quite surprising. Give it a shot if you have a little bit of extra money and want to exploit an advantage or use it to come back in lane.
On August 24 2011 06:18 Mogwai wrote: why is bigfatjiji stomping a vastly inferior player with Pantheon worth reposting?
because in your OP you said to take the fight at level 1 and play aggressively. that "inferior player" didn't expect such burst from Pantheon and it snowballed just from that first kill.
personally, after seeing that type of damage, instead of just reading about it, got me and a lot of other people on the Pantheon hype train. much credit to jiji, but the purpose of the video was to show how powerful he is early lane.
hmm, i guess dblade would be good top because of the brush, but i still cant help but feel like i would be inanely slow without boots, esp on a champ that is so reliant on movement in lane.
It honestly doesnt matter. Because of the nature of laning, the enemy either has to make the choice of last hitting and eating a spear to the face or letting themselves get zoned out. Movespeed doesnt matter when you make them come to you.
Go mid and throw a lot of spears at their AP carry. After throwing a spear, don't run away, run at them. Nuke trades are like, pretty even between Pantheon and AP carries, so you have to derive your lane advantage by threatening to take the exchange to blows. Force them to back off or eat auto-attacks from you.
Isn't it worth it for them to trade auto attacks if their minions join the fight and yours don't?
Also I have a question about the jiji video. Before the gank came, it seemed like Irelia was doing fine in the lane -- she hadn't used her pot, but her health was staying higher than pantheon's mana. There were a few cs she couldn't get to, but with pantheons spear shots slowing down due to mana, she could take more control of the lane, as long as her health remains high enough to survive a full combo. So, question is, assuming the gank doesn't come, how does pantheon play that lane out?
It seems like that's all you can do is keep enough mana to threaten full combo at any time, and then use spears every time you regen enough bonus mana, and sneak in some auto attacks when more of your creeps are nearby than hers. Then your early game strength means nothing without a gank and it's just a farm lane.
Go mid and throw a lot of spears at their AP carry. After throwing a spear, don't run away, run at them. Nuke trades are like, pretty even between Pantheon and AP carries, so you have to derive your lane advantage by threatening to take the exchange to blows. Force them to back off or eat auto-attacks from you.
Isn't it worth it for them to trade auto attacks if their minions join the fight and yours don't?
Also I have a question about the jiji video. Before the gank came, it seemed like Irelia was doing fine in the lane -- she hadn't used her pot, but her health was staying higher than pantheon's mana. There were a few cs she couldn't get to, but with pantheons spear shots slowing down due to mana, she could take more control of the lane, as long as her health remains high enough to survive a full combo. So, question is, assuming the gank doesn't come, how does pantheon play that lane out?
It seems like that's all you can do is keep enough mana to threaten full combo at any time, and then use spears every time you regen enough bonus mana, and sneak in some auto attacks when more of your creeps are nearby than hers. Then your early game strength means nothing without a gank and it's just a farm lane.
If you notice, once his mana starting getting low, he focused more on auto hits. Irelia can only avoid those by not csing at all. Since he created a hp lead of around half his health by using his mana, suddenly he can afford to trade hits for his health bar and if irelia tries to fight back she's naturally lose and he can use the last of his mana pool to ensure the kill. Basically just auto harass zone her off the creeps. If pantheon tried to trade early irelias E+W combo is really, really strong.
If I was playing vs pantheon I'd run my armour yellows+quints page with 21 defense and go cloth armour, (~70 armour lvl 1) starting with hiten style first (10 hp per hit vs ~30-40 damage spears?) and maxing it first, that way I can shrug off spear harass and farm, probably not even needing to use more than 1 potion. What that irelia was doing was stupid, she realized she couldn't fight him but didn't have a plan to do anything so just kept csing and let jiji do what he wanted with her.
I think pantheon is better bot lane where he can shut down carries hard instead of having to deal with sustain top laners who win their lane easily after like 6-7 and first or second buy/heal.
Go mid and throw a lot of spears at their AP carry. After throwing a spear, don't run away, run at them. Nuke trades are like, pretty even between Pantheon and AP carries, so you have to derive your lane advantage by threatening to take the exchange to blows. Force them to back off or eat auto-attacks from you.
Isn't it worth it for them to trade auto attacks if their minions join the fight and yours don't?
Also I have a question about the jiji video. Before the gank came, it seemed like Irelia was doing fine in the lane -- she hadn't used her pot, but her health was staying higher than pantheon's mana. There were a few cs she couldn't get to, but with pantheons spear shots slowing down due to mana, she could take more control of the lane, as long as her health remains high enough to survive a full combo. So, question is, assuming the gank doesn't come, how does pantheon play that lane out?
It seems like that's all you can do is keep enough mana to threaten full combo at any time, and then use spears every time you regen enough bonus mana, and sneak in some auto attacks when more of your creeps are nearby than hers. Then your early game strength means nothing without a gank and it's just a farm lane.
If you notice, once his mana starting getting low, he focused more on auto hits. Irelia can only avoid those by not csing at all. Since he created a hp lead of around half his health by using his mana, suddenly he can afford to trade hits for his health bar and if irelia tries to fight back she's naturally lose and he can use the last of his mana pool to ensure the kill. Basically just auto harass zone her off the creeps. If pantheon tried to trade early irelias E+W combo is really, really strong.
If I was playing vs pantheon I'd run my armour yellows+quints page with 21 defense and go cloth armour, (~70 armour lvl 1) starting with hiten style first (10 hp per hit vs ~30-40 damage spears?) and maxing it first, that way I can shrug off spear harass and farm, probably not even needing to use more than 1 potion. What that irelia was doing was stupid, she realized she couldn't fight him but didn't have a plan to do anything so just kept csing and let jiji do what he wanted with her.
Honestly, jiji played the lvl 1 of that lane very wrong. He wasted more than half his mana to deal ultimately 5% of her life in damage.
Theoretically thats the way it goes though. Add in a couple of early auto hits while passive is up, at lvl 1, but even then if she has stun or hiten style it's not looking that well for you.
Go mid and throw a lot of spears at their AP carry. After throwing a spear, don't run away, run at them. Nuke trades are like, pretty even between Pantheon and AP carries, so you have to derive your lane advantage by threatening to take the exchange to blows. Force them to back off or eat auto-attacks from you.
Isn't it worth it for them to trade auto attacks if their minions join the fight and yours don't?
Also I have a question about the jiji video. Before the gank came, it seemed like Irelia was doing fine in the lane -- she hadn't used her pot, but her health was staying higher than pantheon's mana. There were a few cs she couldn't get to, but with pantheons spear shots slowing down due to mana, she could take more control of the lane, as long as her health remains high enough to survive a full combo. So, question is, assuming the gank doesn't come, how does pantheon play that lane out?
It seems like that's all you can do is keep enough mana to threaten full combo at any time, and then use spears every time you regen enough bonus mana, and sneak in some auto attacks when more of your creeps are nearby than hers. Then your early game strength means nothing without a gank and it's just a farm lane.
You don't want to get into a farm fest with anyone really, because that means you are both coming out relatively even from lane, and then you depend on your teammates to win game. What can you do? Go vamp up the agression from lvl 1. She has regrowth pendant and 1 hp pot, you have boots and 3 hp pots. You have stronger regen from the 3 pots, ms boost, and stronger lvl 1. Get a slight push towards her, and when she makes herself vulnerable or goes for a last hit, just auto attack her. Keep auto attacking her, and use a pot. There are different variations of this, but you just ultimately want the kill. Just keep auto attacking her from lvl 1 and tank the creep dmg, because you have that shield which blocks auto attacks and a spear. Just keep hitting her, and you can finish her off if she tried to fight you like a nub at lvl 1, or hit her a bit, aim for faster lvl 2, and just stun, hit her a bit, spear, and kill for ignite, flashing if she flashes.
jiji played like ass cause he didn't auto attack and spear at the same time and instead just speared and wasted mana. his boots amounted to nothing because they you know... didn't do anything for him. but Irelia sucked and also didn't open cloth + 5, so it works out to look imba anyway, but seriously, that clip is awful.
in other words, numbers is right.
also slayer is right in how irelia should spec vs. Pantheon, it's impossible to win when irelia does that, but pretty much everyone is a fknoob so you get away with beating nasus and irelia and mordekaisers all the time because people are too stubborn to sacrifice their crappy default spec for a pure counter-Pantheon spec.
I actually like running full flat mana regen yellows and blues on Panth for more Q time early. I think it has good synergy with the dblade opening as it allows for more Q spam and ultimately a kill before their pots take effect imo (or just hard zoning).
Rumble vs Panth not very fun... I could get kills on him, but only because he was an idiot and kept trying to dive me at the tower, but otherwise, even with boots there's really not that much you can do to avoid damage and stay in lane at the same time.
On August 24 2011 20:24 jtype wrote: Rumble vs Panth not very fun... I could get kills on him, but only because he was an idiot and kept trying to dive me at the tower, but otherwise, even with boots there's really not that much you can do to avoid damage and stay in lane at the same time.
oh yea, that matchup is 100% impossible. his shield needs a higher fucking CD, that thing is such bullshit. you still have lane dominance for like, the first couple levels, but around level 4 it starts getting completely impossible.
On August 24 2011 19:07 LoCicero wrote: I actually like running full flat mana regen yellows and blues on Panth for more Q time early. I think it has good synergy with the dblade opening as it allows for more Q spam and ultimately a kill before their pots take effect imo (or just hard zoning).
I tried this and don't like it terribly much tbh, but I do notice more spears, so it has its merits.
I rather get the meki pendant opening into tears of goddess and then get my boots. Just because Pantheon has so much trouble with early game mana, and minion kills is so needed in early game. I also don't like stacking bloodthirster's. Maybe 1 after my last whisper and Infinity edge
On August 24 2011 11:54 Mogwai wrote: but Irelia sucked and also didn't open cloth + 5
I never open cloth + 5
well, you spec like 40 Armor from your runepage, so w/e. on a standard spec, knowing you're laning vs. Pantheon, cloth + 5 is the way to hard counter him.
On August 24 2011 11:54 Mogwai wrote: but Irelia sucked and also didn't open cloth + 5
I never open cloth + 5
well, you spec like 40 Armor from your runepage, so w/e. on a standard spec, knowing you're laning vs. Pantheon, cloth + 5 is the way to hard counter him.
"Hardcounter" sounds so mean.
What should I do if I'm panth and they are assholes and start cloth+5? Can't just bend over and take it, being a spartan and all.
get a 10-15 cs advantage and deal with it. or get ganks, you can rape them still with ganks, cloth + 5 is more about grinding down Pantheon's mana pool and outlasting him than beating him, so when you have a gank that presents an immediate threat of death, they're in trouble.
Don't underestimate the boots + 3 pots start, it gives a massive mobility boost over the non-boots Irelia, giving him the ability to poke easily without the irelia being able to effectively trade blows. She was already losing the lane by taking those summoners, and she knew pantheon would be dishing out that much damage, so she tried to stay back getting the only CS she could. If Udyr ganked then maybe it would have turned out a lot different. This is the result of taking Teleport instead of Exhaust or Ignite.
People are starting to counterpick my panth with cho It's real fkdumb lane. If cho is dumb I can still get a kill before 6, but at 6 I have 0% chance to kill him. And if he's smart he can actually out-cs me while taking no net damage thanks to brokenly strong passive and infinite range aoe farm spells. What do?
On August 28 2011 00:56 gtrsrs wrote: People are starting to counterpick my panth with cho It's real fkdumb lane. If cho is dumb I can still get a kill before 6, but at 6 I have 0% chance to kill him. And if he's smart he can actually out-cs me while taking no net damage thanks to brokenly strong passive and infinite range aoe farm spells. What do?
pull the lane after he pushes it and call for ganks. it's not a good matchup, but he shouldn't really be able to harass you and cs at the same time really effectively.
Warwick, probably udyr. He gets trumped by the real stupid sustainability guys, but seems to rape everyone else. I hate that fucking character so much.
Most AP heroes and most ranged AD absolutely stomp Rumble. And Rumble doesn't really shine midlane, so you can force him to go mid and then he's usually pretty fucked.
On August 30 2011 03:05 Southlight wrote: Most AP heroes and most ranged AD absolutely stomp Rumble. And Rumble doesn't really shine midlane, so you can force him to go mid and then he's usually pretty fucked.
mmm, I disagree. That fucking speed boost shield + his retarded flamethrower damage let him eat most squishy ranged characters up in top lane in my experience. Teemo might beat him, but I'm not sure, you really need some strong early kiting and damage skills to put a dent in that fucker without just dying.
He would get roasted by Brand/Ori/Malz, not sure about Annie, etc. Cait would also wreck him, not as sure about MF as you might need to consistently dodge/have him miss his harpoons.
On August 28 2011 00:56 gtrsrs wrote: People are starting to counterpick my panth with cho It's real fkdumb lane. If cho is dumb I can still get a kill before 6, but at 6 I have 0% chance to kill him. And if he's smart he can actually out-cs me while taking no net damage thanks to brokenly strong passive and infinite range aoe farm spells. What do?
pull the lane after he pushes it and call for ganks. it's not a good matchup, but he shouldn't really be able to harass you and cs at the same time really effectively.
it's not like i have a hard time farming against him it's just that panth's strength is in laning kills and i can't kill him. farmed cho compared to evenly farmed panth favors cho unfortunately cause he can build pure tank and still do infinite damage. especially cho with teleport fuck that
Atmog almost always has a niche. It's game dependent really. The combo requires insane farm so expect to be fairly weak (compared to the "standard" builds) until the Atmog's is finished.
e.g. you ding 6, manjump bot and score FB and a double kill. With that kind of start, you could probably start on your Warmog's and maybe fit a Brutalizer in somewhere so your AD stays relevant.
On August 30 2011 05:56 Woony wrote: What about Atmogs panth? Trolly or does it have its niche?
Just like the ppl before me wrote: it depends.
I count Pantheon as an "AD caster" similar to e.g. Garen: sick early game damage / scaling. Abuse it or die trying. You will probably die trying if you can't tighten your advantage and keep up the hilarious damage output from early game.
Observe how your lane is going. Do your spears still hurt a lot or do they only tickle the enemy? Can you risk to not have another chunk of AD while building Atmog's or not?
Personally, in most of my games with Pantheon (and Garen) I feel the need for a medium AD follow up after D-Blade stacking (a simple B. F. Sword is usually enough with its +45 AD and grows into BT / IE later).
But then you have to go Atmogs right after since it takes its time to get it and you probably plan on maxing out the bonus on Warmogs.
On August 30 2011 11:53 Mogwai wrote: really? is the spell vamp really worth it?
No he is joking.
On August 30 2011 06:07 gtrsrs wrote: i like atmogs if i've got a nice lead cause it prevents me from dying and furthers my lead if i'm behind then i build pure glass cannon AD
Strange I, and I imagined most people would do this, is to build glass cannon from the go, and use my rediculous early game powers to dominate the shit and snowball into victory, or if i fail, to switch into atmogs, which scales a lot better into late game, and if the game makes it to lategame, i wont be a useless underfed glass cannon...
On August 30 2011 11:53 Mogwai wrote: really? is the spell vamp really worth it?
No he is joking.
actually vamp works on a lot of physical dmg spells, i wouldnt be suprised if it worked on all 4 of his skills, plus you can always use the active on pretty much any champ, and the amount of pure regen you get is pretty insane, assuming you dont get incapacitated by cc.
afaik, spellvamp only doesnt work on physicals that apply onhits, so ez and pirate q, and some other random exceptions i dont kno off the top of my head
On August 30 2011 11:53 Mogwai wrote: really? is the spell vamp really worth it?
No he is joking.
actually vamp works on a lot of physical dmg spells, i wouldnt be suprised if it worked on all 4 of his skills, plus you can always use the active on pretty much any champ, and the amount of pure regen you get is pretty insane, assuming you dont get incapacitated by cc.
afaik, spellvamp only doesnt work on physicals that apply onhits, so ez and pirate q, and some other random exceptions i dont kno off the top of my head
On August 30 2011 11:53 Mogwai wrote: really? is the spell vamp really worth it?
No he is joking.
actually vamp works on a lot of physical dmg spells, i wouldnt be suprised if it worked on all 4 of his skills, plus you can always use the active on pretty much any champ, and the amount of pure regen you get is pretty insane, assuming you dont get incapacitated by cc.
afaik, spellvamp only doesnt work on physicals that apply onhits, so ez and pirate q, and some other random exceptions i dont kno off the top of my head
are you trolling me?
spellvamp works on physical spells?
how could i not know that in 2000 games...
yes what bear said is true it works on physical spells
On September 05 2011 07:07 Ryuu314 wrote: gunblade es #1 item. always vamp never not vamp
i personally just think spellvamp is kind of a dumb mechanic but maybe that's just me.
I agree, spell vamp is just a crappy mechanic. It's inherently hard to balance because of the insane amount of regeneration burst casters could get from it if they had too much or it's negligible in the amount of regeneration it provides.
On September 05 2011 07:07 Ryuu314 wrote: gunblade es #1 item. always vamp never not vamp
i personally just think spellvamp is kind of a dumb mechanic but maybe that's just me.
I agree, spell vamp is just a crappy mechanic. It's inherently hard to balance because of the insane amount of regeneration burst casters could get from it if they had too much or it's negligible in the amount of regeneration it provides.
This is kind of mitigated by the fact that spells have cooldowns AND if you play 100% ideally you shouldn't be taking any damage. (Other than Morde, Vlad, and Swain)
EDIT: Also the big damage bursts usually come at beginning of the fight where casters should have close to full HP
On September 05 2011 15:23 Lanzoma wrote: People always think I'm trolling with gunblade mantheon.
Even after they die.
I tested it today in a normal..
I forced morde to go support lower, so I could top...
Even when i was 11-1-4, morde was going
"report pantheon troll noob 2 hextechs wtf"
"omg third hextech wtf troll report noob"
"game is lost i dont care"
"we lose cos of you" (we were winning/we won/who cares lol)
etc etc
Well, more than one gunblade is pretty trolly >.>
2 Dblades+Gunblade+BT+LW imo. Maybe a GA so you don't insta-die.
Altho I gotta say, the stats on Gunblade are so damn efficient it's almost imba imo. U can just stack pure gunblades and still get a shitload of AD/AP.
On September 06 2011 10:56 broz0rs wrote: Gunblade on one of the highest AD scaling dudes on the game.. who woulda thunk it?
but can somebody try to explain why you would even get this item for Panth? does it make him tanky from spellvamp?
I've never done it, but my guess is that the insane vamp you get from it will let you stay in fights a little longer.
You'd still die easily to concentrated burst but otherwise you have more sustain. It's kinda like why you would sometimes get BT on range AD. So you have some form of heal in fights.
On September 06 2011 10:56 broz0rs wrote: Gunblade on one of the highest AD scaling dudes on the game.. who woulda thunk it?
but can somebody try to explain why you would even get this item for Panth? does it make him tanky from spellvamp?
I've never done it, but my guess is that the insane vamp you get from it will let you stay in fights a little longer.
You'd still die easily to concentrated burst but otherwise you have more sustain. It's kinda like why you would sometimes get BT on range AD. So you have some form of heal in fights.
best way to build gunblade on pantheon is double bdlade -> brutalizer -> cutlass -> BT -> gunblade IMO. Cutlass active is somewhat cute after your W. I like it for nubstomping, but I'm not sure I'd ever use it at my real elo.
On September 07 2011 00:17 Mogwai wrote: best way to build gunblade on pantheon is double bdlade -> brutalizer -> cutlass -> BT -> gunblade IMO. Cutlass active is somewhat cute after your W. I like it for nubstomping, but I'm not sure I'd ever use it at my real elo.
Is the damage loss from going revolver instead of cutlass first too much for the survivability gains from the vamp? Or is the lifesteal on your auto-attacks enough at that point in the game?
well, it's not like you spam your shit in lane. you spam auto-attacks on creeps with less than 15% HP, meaning you get to lifesteal auto-crits, meaning lifesteal is way the fuck better for lane sustainability. Spell vamp is mostly just useful later on in teamfights and stuff. Also, Cutlass gives you an active that's useful, and as you already noted, gives way better damage.
On September 05 2011 15:23 Lanzoma wrote: People always think I'm trolling with gunblade mantheon.
Even after they die.
I tested it today in a normal..
I forced morde to go support lower, so I could top...
Even when i was 11-1-4, morde was going
"report pantheon troll noob 2 hextechs wtf"
"omg third hextech wtf troll report noob"
"game is lost i dont care"
"we lose cos of you" (we were winning/we won/who cares lol)
etc etc
Well, more than one gunblade is pretty trolly >.>
2 Dblades+Gunblade+BT+LW imo. Maybe a GA so you don't insta-die.
Altho I gotta say, the stats on Gunblade are so damn efficient it's almost imba imo. U can just stack pure gunblades and still get a shitload of AD/AP.
Pantheon is trolly.
And don't ">.>" me... If multiple gunblades = carry + win its not ">.>" its "^_^ :D !! h4x :3"
On September 05 2011 15:23 Lanzoma wrote: People always think I'm trolling with gunblade mantheon.
Even after they die.
I tested it today in a normal..
I forced morde to go support lower, so I could top...
Even when i was 11-1-4, morde was going
"report pantheon troll noob 2 hextechs wtf"
"omg third hextech wtf troll report noob"
"game is lost i dont care"
"we lose cos of you" (we were winning/we won/who cares lol)
etc etc
Well, more than one gunblade is pretty trolly >.>
2 Dblades+Gunblade+BT+LW imo. Maybe a GA so you don't insta-die.
Altho I gotta say, the stats on Gunblade are so damn efficient it's almost imba imo. U can just stack pure gunblades and still get a shitload of AD/AP.
Pantheon is trolly.
And don't ">.>" me... If multiple gunblades = carry + win its not ">.>" its "^_^ :D !! h4x :3"
That's true. Funnily enough I've had more success stacking gunblades on Tryn than I do building him more traditionally lol
vamp (spell and lifesteal) easily one of the most underrated stats. which is kinda funny kus it was one of the most overrated by pugs in DotA, which is why it was my kneejerk reaction to kinda underrate it in this game too.
On September 08 2011 14:28 barbsq wrote: vamp (spell and lifesteal) easily one of the most underrated stats. which is kinda funny kus it was one of the most overrated by pugs in DotA, which is why it was my kneejerk reaction to kinda underrate it in this game too.
Well the thing is, in LoL, lifesteal stacks while in DotA it doesn't and acts as an orb effect (usually) which limits your itemization options.
Which is why stacking shit like gunblade is so damn lulzy cause you get hilarious levels of vamp after a couple items.
On September 08 2011 14:28 barbsq wrote: vamp (spell and lifesteal) easily one of the most underrated stats. which is kinda funny kus it was one of the most overrated by pugs in DotA, which is why it was my kneejerk reaction to kinda underrate it in this game too.
Well the thing is, in LoL, lifesteal stacks while in DotA it doesn't and acts as an orb effect (usually) which limits your itemization options.
Which is why stacking shit like gunblade is so damn lulzy cause you get hilarious levels of vamp after a couple items.
Everything stated is true, but you forgot to mention the cost of lifesteal and the lack of stat diversity on lifesteal items.
Most of the items were "tanky" items. (The only exception is mask of madness which is a deathwish on most non-tanks but can be considered a DPS item)
Mask of Madness was jawesome. I fucking loved charging across the whole map with Spirit Breaker to isolate 1 jerk freefarming, activate Mask and then stunlock rape them.
I used it, doesn't seem as effective as SmashGizmo's build O_o the active is fun to play with though. people don't expect you to have that lil extra nuke lol.
Are you talking about early game? I usually don't have mana problems. I would say if you can manage your spells and don't spam then you should be fine. It depppends on how you are doing in lane though. Like if your spear poke isn't doing much then don't use it as much and don't over spear when it does as they will just back off and go heal. Poke them down but you want to save your mana for when you want to jump in for a kill. regening when you go back for items and being smart with your harass and you should be fine.
So I haven't played Pantheon (or LoL for that matter) in a while. Last time I played, HSS was god awful and pretty much it was spear/stun/auto repeat. 1 level of HSS for the passive. Is that still a viable build? I loved the spear/stun pantheon to death, but couldn't stand him pre "nerf" when HSS was godly
EDIT: I think I stopped playing around 107/108 ish?
On September 24 2011 17:13 Xenocide_Knight wrote: So I haven't played Pantheon (or LoL for that matter) in a while. Last time I played, HSS was god awful and pretty much it was spear/stun/auto repeat. 1 level of HSS for the passive. Is that still a viable build? I loved the spear/stun pantheon to death, but couldn't stand him pre "nerf" when HSS was godly
EDIT: I think I stopped playing around 107/108 ish?
basically last iteration, leveling w increased stun duration. now it does 1 sec at all levels, so its a 1 point wonder, and the cd goes from 13 to 9, which is really not worth leveling at all over hss
edit
On October 07 2011 17:31 JackDino wrote: Smash, do you still open d-blade top if your opponent opens boots? And more specific, how do you lane against an irellia?
lol, smash is tempbanned
edit2: and to try to best answer your question, i would imagine yes. the whole point of the dblade first is to go fight them at lvl 1 and either zone them or outright kill them. this will certainly work on irelia if she levels q or w first, not sure about e tho with creep dmg and all, dunno how that would work, but i'd imagine if you fought intelligently and abused ur passive it would still be ok
Zzz anyone else have any advice in that case:p? I opened boots vs akali and I zoned her rather hard, tried opening Dblade and I just got kited @ the start, she could still cs with her Q.
I forced irellia back @ lvl1( I opened boots3) but then she came to lane with full hp while I wasn't 100%, got ganked and from there on I just was scared of her dmg(she just healed up every harass with her ult, felt like it had no cd). Usually I just fill in roles/play against bad people so I don't get to play him all that much.
On October 08 2011 01:27 JackDino wrote: I forced irellia back @ lvl1( I opened boots3) but then she came to lane with full hp while I wasn't 100%, got ganked and from there on I just was scared of her dmg(she just healed up every harass with her ult, felt like it had no cd). Usually I just fill in roles/play against bad people so I don't get to play him all that much.
That's why I like teleport. This way if she backs, you can back as well and get in lane faster than she does. The thing about pantheon is you have to deal a lot of damage to them early. with the scaling buffs it's easier to keep the lead. For panth to succeed, you have to deprive the other guy of enough farm so that it's hard for them to get back in the game.
I just basically go stupidly aggressive with Pantheon starting lvl 1 and just maintain that lead. Every time they try to last hit just chuck spears at them and autoattack 'em. Dont' let them have free last hits ever.
not having ignite vs. Irelia is a death sentence, you'll never be able to kill her, and frankly, if you don't kill Irelia, regardless of farm, she'll be able to stomp your shit come level 6.
you gotta just jump way way way far ahead in the early levels, so I just open dblade and deny her as hard as possible and make sure to back off when she backs off so that I don't get myself at an item disadvantage. if she opens ninja tabi though, you're kinda just fucked.
On September 12 2011 09:49 dnastyx wrote: Don't waste your mana.
Problem solved. (PS if you read through this thread you'll see people have asked that question about 50000000 times.)
And this is a stupid answer given that Panth's lane control is dependent on his ability to repeatedly spear the fuck out of someone.
The better answer is cast sparingly at levels 2 and 4 where the mana/damage efficiency is lower, but ramp it up during levels 3 and 5 to compensate.
Eh...I like being really aggressive at lvl 4 'cause you can easily kill someone when you hit 4 if they're not careful. Agreed about lvl 2 tho.
Against Akali you just have to be careful. I think you should win trades at lvl 1-2 if you're autoattacking a bunch, but Akali starts to out-trade you by like...lvl 3 or smth.
On October 17 2011 08:09 freelander wrote: with 600+ bonus ad HSS does some 2300 damage under 0.75 sec im jelly
super cool build but a last whisper as 6th item is cooler :3 though i will try this
Yea people pretty much just melted to HSS. 1.2k+ crits to last hit with too ^^. I thought about LW for the last item but this was too stylish. Rammus with 400+ armor? Np, still rip through him. Lifeleech>Thornmail all day.
On October 17 2011 08:09 freelander wrote: with 600+ bonus ad HSS does some 2300 damage under 0.75 sec im jelly
super cool build but a last whisper as 6th item is cooler :3 though i will try this
Yea people pretty much just melted to HSS. 1.2k+ crits to last hit with too ^^. I thought about LW for the last item but this was too stylish. Rammus with 400+ armor? Np, still rip through him. Lifeleech>Thornmail all day.
in order to outlifeleech a 400 armor rammus with thornmail, you'd need... 150% lifesteal, just to handle his thornmail (and not his DBC). Hope those BTs are stacked up!
On October 17 2011 08:09 freelander wrote: with 600+ bonus ad HSS does some 2300 damage under 0.75 sec im jelly
super cool build but a last whisper as 6th item is cooler :3 though i will try this
Yea people pretty much just melted to HSS. 1.2k+ crits to last hit with too ^^. I thought about LW for the last item but this was too stylish. Rammus with 400+ armor? Np, still rip through him. Lifeleech>Thornmail all day.
in order to outlifeleech a 400 armor rammus with thornmail, you'd need... 150% lifesteal, just to handle his thornmail (and not his DBC). Hope those BTs are stacked up!
you don't have to autoattack rammus it's pantheon after all edit : if you survive the taunt l0l
Does anyone have any tips for going against Nunu in the early game as Pantheon? I seem to get stuck trading spear pokes for Ice Blasts and then he just Consumes and heals up. I get no cs, no kills and then I'm trash in the mid/late game. I usually open dblade. Good idea? Bad idea?
so what would you guys think about this *slight* buff to panth: when your aegis shield is up, your spears apply on-hit effects
boom, a nice change that would allow you to get sheen->triforce, or have a stronger jungling panth, or make mallet + atma's better on him, without making him OP or fucking his skills?
On November 16 2011 10:02 gtrsrs wrote: so what would you guys think about this *slight* buff to panth: when your aegis shield is up, your spears apply on-hit effects
boom, a nice change that would allow you to get sheen->triforce, or have a stronger jungling panth, or make mallet + atma's better on him, without making him OP or fucking his skills?
na, too awkward. would have to have it's damage lowered anyway to make it reasonable too. I get where you're coming from, but I just don't think on-hits on spears is in the cards.
Well its not like he auto's alot? Just feels a bit of a waste if the lifesteal only is for the autoattacks, without any aspd built at all. What about Manamune on Panth? Is it an okay item, seeing as he's quite manastarved if you spam your attacks.
On November 17 2011 08:01 Fayfay wrote: Well its not like he auto's alot? Just feels a bit of a waste if the lifesteal only is for the autoattacks, without any aspd built at all. What about Manamune on Panth? Is it an okay item, seeing as he's quite manastarved if you spam your attacks.
Since all of pantheons skills scale retardedly good off AD, BT gives the cheapest form and the highest AD in the game
On November 17 2011 08:01 Fayfay wrote: Well its not like he auto's alot? Just feels a bit of a waste if the lifesteal only is for the autoattacks, without any aspd built at all. What about Manamune on Panth? Is it an okay item, seeing as he's quite manastarved if you spam your attacks.
Pantheon shouldn't have mana issues tbh. Especially with a 23/0/07 spec
Just followed Mog's guide. It's retardedly good. I was against a Tryn top and got first blade pretty much immediately, and snowballed from there. One thing I really dislike though is the fact that you are OoM constantly.
On November 22 2011 07:05 ryanAnger wrote: Just followed Mog's guide. It's retardedly good. I was against a Tryn top and got first blade pretty much immediately, and snowballed from there. One thing I really dislike though is the fact that you are OoM constantly.
If you're oom you're doing it wrong imo.
What I like to do is harass with 50% spears and 50% autos at lvl 1. At level 2, I get stun and only harass very sparingly (only when I get get a full combo of QWautoQ off with very little or no retaliation from them). Mostly use lvl 2 to regen mana. At level 3 resume spear chucking like a boss. At level 4 just regen mana unless an opportunity to kill or force them back arises. At level 5 more spear chucking. If you haven't killed 'em or forced them to buy tons of pots by the time you get 6 you're doing it wrong.
You just gotta be smarter about using your q. Also abuse your autoattack harass. Your passive makes it so you will almost always win autoattack trades.
On November 28 2011 14:34 broz0rs wrote: I have been playing a lot of Pantheon and wish I purchased him a lot earlier.
What are your opinions about him in high level play in the current state of the game? (top lane of course)
My thoughts are that he's probably playable because he fucks people up for most of the laning phase, but that I'd almost always rather just play Gangplank because Gangplank does a lot of the same things in laning but scales way better with farm and has a more useful global presence.
Lulziest bot lane I've seen in a while is Leona/Lux
The just lane along until one of them lands a snare, then they instantly stack absolutely every skill in one huge alpha strike that does like 4 billion damage and stunlocks the victim for about 20 seconds.
On November 16 2011 10:02 gtrsrs wrote: so what would you guys think about this *slight* buff to panth: when your aegis shield is up, your spears apply on-hit effects
boom, a nice change that would allow you to get sheen->triforce, or have a stronger jungling panth, or make mallet + atma's better on him, without making him OP or fucking his skills?
well
this post looks absolutely fucking genius now
haven't had a chance to mess around with redspear panth but i'm sure i will crush with it
On December 01 2011 10:52 Xenocide_Knight wrote: Wait, with redbuff procing off spells now, does it work for spear?
Yuuuuuuup. Spear with slow + DoT. Be even more annoying.
I *love* pantheon. Holyshit I don't know how I never discovered this guy early on. He's so fucking fun to play, and your lvl1 duels are HILARIOUS. No one can touch you 1v1 at lvl1. Riven? LOL rite. Trynd? Yeah he wishes. Renekton with cloth armor? You can still kill him at lvl1. The only problem imo is that you feel a lot like leblanc late game. Not many people can 1v1 you, and your burst damage is ridiculous, but you are soooo fragile in teamfights and if you don't crush your lane opponent you just lack anything late game.
I'm also not sure how he fits into the current meta. Panth *needs* to build serious damage to be relevant at all late game, and so you aren't able to really be a good tank. Top lane is usually where tanky champs rule, and so if you send Panth top instead of a bruiser, your team may lack a good tank. I personally prefer to run him mid, because you can really mess up a lot of casters too, (and obviously the ability to jump to both lanes is invaluable). But then your team may be lacking magic damage and need to run an AP champ elsewhere.
His lane strength is crazy though. Open dblade and you can seriously force people to recall or die at lvl1 or 2. Always spear never not spear and trade autos if they try to get anywhere near you. Once you hit 2, spear and jump on their face and just trade autos until they back up. *No one* can go toe to toe with you at this level, and you WILL force them to back off, and sometimes even get the early kill because a lot of players even at supposedly higher elos are simply not expecting to die at lvl1 and it somehow just doesn't register with them that "yuuup i can kill you already". They'll try to trade hits or last hit and forget all about your passive and your crazy damage output.
Using his passive well is super important too. Against other auto attackers it's what wins you the fight. As soon as your shield comes up, go start a fight. Right click on them and chuck a spear. If they run, yay, if they fight, yay! As soon as you block the first hit, W on them so you insta-proc another shield and block the next hit. You'll have done good damage by now and blocked 2 full autos which makes the trade look terrifyingly in your favor and they're likely to retreat. As they run, HSS them in the butt and chuck one last spear as it ends. EZPZ.
I'm still torn on runes for him though and I'm hoping people can help me out here. I'm not the best mathcrafter or whatnot and I've been experimenting with lots of different rune setups. Mainly only reds/quints I'm concerned about, and basically flat AD vs arpen. I used to run arpen marks and AD quints, but yesterday I was playing around with pure arpen and actually found myself dealing more damage than normal. Full arpen and a dorans opening is incredibly strong, but part of me also questions running full AD and starting the game with like +27 damage and chuck super death spears all day. What would be most efficient for panth?
I see Loci running panth a lot in ranked and so Loci if you read this please give me your thoughts! I love panth and I want to play him more in ranked games but I feel like unless I really REALLY crush my lane opponent, then I'm just not useful late game. I can insta-gib squishies with a Q->W->auto->E->Q combo late game, but if you get CC'd or focused you just explode. You're like a squishy AD carry that needs to be on the front lines. I just find him super hard to position. If your team lands great CC and you catch like 2-3 people in your E, ohhh my god you do crazy damage. But if you jump on someone and your team doesn't peel or anything and you get stunned, you're probably dead. Very GOBIGGOHOME champ. I also am not sure what summons to run. I always run ignite/flash and ignite is WONDERFUL in lane for early kills but late game I find myself seriously wishing I had another escape skill because I'm so damned fragile and super super vulnerable to CC T_T;
Oh, and you hard counter pirate like no one else in the game. Super fun match up. Block every Q huehuehuehue
Had an interesting lane setup the other day: I was playing Pantheon/Lux with a friend bot lane for shits and giggles (although Pantheon/Leona sounds even stronger), and we had our AD mid and galio top. We had some ridiculous galio ults (including one with a tp) with a pantheon ult at the same time. So much fun.
Anyway - Pantheon mid is definitely viable if you send an anti-bruiser AP top. Ryze, Swain, Galio are all good, and will tank for you later in the game. Kennen can work too if you have a tanky jungle. Having Rammus on your team is just hilarious.
For quints, ArPen is better top, AD is better mid. Basically, as long as you're sure the ArPen won't be wasted, it's stronger. ArPen on reds, always.
ignite/flash is kinda necessary because without those early game kills, you're pretty useless. back in the old days I liked ghost + flash, but I just feel like you have a hard time securing kills in lane without ignite.
On December 01 2011 10:52 Xenocide_Knight wrote: Wait, with redbuff procing off spells now, does it work for spear?
Yuuuuuuup. Spear with slow + DoT. Be even more annoying.
I *love* pantheon. Holyshit I don't know how I never discovered this guy early on. He's so fucking fun to play, and your lvl1 duels are HILARIOUS. No one can touch you 1v1 at lvl1. Riven? LOL rite. Trynd? Yeah he wishes. Renekton with cloth armor? You can still kill him at lvl1. The only problem imo is that you feel a lot like leblanc late game. Not many people can 1v1 you, and your burst damage is ridiculous, but you are soooo fragile in teamfights and if you don't crush your lane opponent you just lack anything late game.
I'm also not sure how he fits into the current meta. Panth *needs* to build serious damage to be relevant at all late game, and so you aren't able to really be a good tank. Top lane is usually where tanky champs rule, and so if you send Panth top instead of a bruiser, your team may lack a good tank. I personally prefer to run him mid, because you can really mess up a lot of casters too, (and obviously the ability to jump to both lanes is invaluable). But then your team may be lacking magic damage and need to run an AP champ elsewhere.
His lane strength is crazy though. Open dblade and you can seriously force people to recall or die at lvl1 or 2. Always spear never not spear and trade autos if they try to get anywhere near you. Once you hit 2, spear and jump on their face and just trade autos until they back up. *No one* can go toe to toe with you at this level, and you WILL force them to back off, and sometimes even get the early kill because a lot of players even at supposedly higher elos are simply not expecting to die at lvl1 and it somehow just doesn't register with them that "yuuup i can kill you already". They'll try to trade hits or last hit and forget all about your passive and your crazy damage output.
Using his passive well is super important too. Against other auto attackers it's what wins you the fight. As soon as your shield comes up, go start a fight. Right click on them and chuck a spear. If they run, yay, if they fight, yay! As soon as you block the first hit, W on them so you insta-proc another shield and block the next hit. You'll have done good damage by now and blocked 2 full autos which makes the trade look terrifyingly in your favor and they're likely to retreat. As they run, HSS them in the butt and chuck one last spear as it ends. EZPZ.
I'm still torn on runes for him though and I'm hoping people can help me out here. I'm not the best mathcrafter or whatnot and I've been experimenting with lots of different rune setups. Mainly only reds/quints I'm concerned about, and basically flat AD vs arpen. I used to run arpen marks and AD quints, but yesterday I was playing around with pure arpen and actually found myself dealing more damage than normal. Full arpen and a dorans opening is incredibly strong, but part of me also questions running full AD and starting the game with like +27 damage and chuck super death spears all day. What would be most efficient for panth?
I see Loci running panth a lot in ranked and so Loci if you read this please give me your thoughts! I love panth and I want to play him more in ranked games but I feel like unless I really REALLY crush my lane opponent, then I'm just not useful late game. I can insta-gib squishies with a Q->W->auto->E->Q combo late game, but if you get CC'd or focused you just explode. You're like a squishy AD carry that needs to be on the front lines. I just find him super hard to position. If your team lands great CC and you catch like 2-3 people in your E, ohhh my god you do crazy damage. But if you jump on someone and your team doesn't peel or anything and you get stunned, you're probably dead. Very GOBIGGOHOME champ. I also am not sure what summons to run. I always run ignite/flash and ignite is WONDERFUL in lane for early kills but late game I find myself seriously wishing I had another escape skill because I'm so damned fragile and super super vulnerable to CC T_T;
Oh, and you hard counter pirate like no one else in the game. Super fun match up. Block every Q huehuehuehue
Your analysis is pretty accurate. I don't like him top because at top elo the junglers know how easily he is ganked, and you'll just get abused 2v1. Even if the jungler sits top and doesn't farm his jungle that much a pantheon with no farm is completely useless so it doesn't even matter, the game will be 4v5 while panth tries to farm. I don't like him top simply because of that. You can usually get around the whole "not having a bruiser" top be getting a jungler to pick a pretty tanky champ like amumu or malph.
I prefer him mid. You're against people with low armor and weaker early games. This is a situation where Panth thrives. You're less easily ganked mid as well due to the short lane distance. For Mid I would recommend damage quints and ArPen reds. For Top you'll want full armor pen as Smash said. Mid is also better because you can ult either top or bot (usually bot is the place to go, you can get a double and dragon off of it usually). I just build him pure damage and go big or go home (bruta, 2x bloodthirster last whisper and maybe atmogs, you'll have upwards of 400 damage with 1500+ damage heartseekers). Late game is hard because you're a squishy champ who gets crushed by any sort of CC and you have zero mobility. The only way I've gotten around it is to simply play smart. Don't use your E on the target you want to kill, use it to reposition yourself. The 1 second stun isn't nearly enough to justify jumping a carry next to a support, you'll simply get exhausted and get destroyed. So pay attention during teamfights and try to use your E to jump OUT of a shitstorm if you find yourself in one. You pretty much just have to outplay people hard lategame, lol.
Has anyone experimented with pantheon in the new jungle? If he can clear it decently (maybe with HSS level first?), red buff spear and stun could be brutal.
On December 02 2011 05:58 HAL9OOO wrote: Has anyone experimented with pantheon in the new jungle? If he can clear it decently (maybe with HSS level first?), red buff spear and stun could be brutal.
na, HSS too weak vs. non-champs. Panth jungle has always chewed through mana too quickly and been too slow, even when level 1 spear was 30 mana.
Panth mid and Swain top sounds pretty legit, as both really fuck with the typical roles in each lane really well. Problem is it's impossible to hide your intentions with picks like that(you'd have to pick both last, and might still be vulnerable to simple lane swaps). Hard to fit him into the meta outside of soloQ.
On December 02 2011 10:05 Haemonculus wrote: Loci what's your take on dblades on panth? I usually build 2 before moving on to big damage items. You recommend any? More? Or is it situational?
Only time I don't get 2 dblades is if I can go back to shop and buy a straight up BF sword on my first time back to base (faster BT the better). If I can't do that I simply go 2x dblade into bruta into BT.
On December 03 2011 00:50 Mogwai wrote: My Pantheon raped Rainman's Udyr so hard that he ragequit last night, trolololo.
That was HILARIOUS. I absolutely hate watching rainman, but I saw Smash on pantheon so I watched it (with sounds, painful as it was).
He takes tiger at level 1 instead of turtle. Eats a few spears to the face, gets zoned to the tower while spamming pots. When creep wave pushes to tower, Smash throws a couple more spears, then dives for kill. Someone already died, so it wasn't first blood. Smash died as well but he denied tons of farm so it was a win.
At this point Udyr had like 6 cs and lost ~1.5 creep waves to the tower after he died. Apparently has no idea how much damage Pantheon does, because he tried to engage in lane and got throttled and had to go back again (with like 20 hp). Smash hit level 6 when Rainman was still level 4. The only reason he somewhat got back into the game is because Smash jumped on dragon while Udyr pushed top by himself.
When Smash gets back in lane Rain types WTF HOW DOES HE HAVE 3 KILLS WHOS FEEDING HIM (bitching about how their mid sucks and is feeding). He stacks armor (tabi, wriggle, cloth) and so Smash starts building Last Whisperer. That's when the stream died. So amusing.
He claims during stream that he has the wrong runes and that he's drunk (with his obligatory hyena-like ASHDFHASJHAHAHAHAHAH's in between).
EDIT: There was one unwarded gank from gangplank when lane was pushed. Pantheon instantly jumps backwards towards GP and flashes. Right before that, I noticed you could have jumped on Udyr and win a trade but didn't; were you expecting the gank?
On December 03 2011 00:50 Mogwai wrote: My Pantheon raped Rainman's Udyr so hard that he ragequit last night, trolololo.
That was HILARIOUS. I absolutely hate watching rainman, but I saw Smash on pantheon so I watched it (with sounds, painful as it was).
He takes tiger at level 1 instead of turtle. Eats a few spears to the face, gets zoned to the tower while spamming pots. When creep wave pushes to tower, Smash throws a couple more spears, then dives for kill. Someone already died, so it wasn't first blood. Smash died as well but he denied tons of farm so it was a win.
At this point Udyr had like 6 cs and lost ~1.5 creep waves to the tower after he died. Apparently has no idea how much damage Pantheon does, because he tried to engage in lane and got throttled and had to go back again (with like 20 hp). Smash hit level 6 when Rainman was still level 4. The only reason he somewhat got back into the game is because Smash jumped on dragon while Udyr pushed top by himself.
When Smash gets back in lane Rain types WTF HOW DOES HE HAVE 3 KILLS WHOS FEEDING HIM (bitching about how their mid sucks and is feeding). He stacks armor (tabi, wriggle, cloth) and so Smash starts building Last Whisperer. That's when the stream died. So amusing.
He claims during stream that he has the wrong runes and that he's drunk (with his obligatory hyena-like ASHDFHASJHAHAHAHAHAH's in between).
EDIT: There was one unwarded gank from gangplank when lane was pushed. Pantheon instantly jumps backwards towards GP and flashes. Right before that, I noticed you could have jumped on Udyr and win a trade but didn't; were you expecting the gank?
I would've traded had I been losing the lane or even close to udyr getting some semblance of control back. however, as things were, I just played it safe and used GP to springboard myself to safety to preserve my lead. no point in trading while ahead, just gives him a chance to claw back into the game
How safe is it to open dorans in top lane though? I try to when I see my lane opponent open cloth armor, simply because if they don't have boots, you might not need em, and cloth5 will outlast boots5 any day. So I get dorans in that situation, (or if they also get dorans which is great for you as well), but in dorans vs cloth5 you *need* to be hyper aggressive, no? You've got more damage, but they have sustain and you don't, so you need to reeeeaally punish them out of lane early.
But playing hyper aggressive top lane that early, (especially if you start purple side imo) is just asking to be ganked, and panth with no boots getting ganked early is like instant death, or at the very least forced to blow flash at which point rammus just comes back 15 seconds later and finishes the deal T_T;
I just played a game with a Pantheon, we lost, but I had a cool moment where I told Pantheon to ult on top of an Ezreal. I then moved in as Sona and ulted the Ezreal as he was running, and Pantheon just immediately exploded on top of him and killed him.
On December 04 2011 23:58 Haemonculus wrote: How safe is it to open dorans in top lane though? I try to when I see my lane opponent open cloth armor, simply because if they don't have boots, you might not need em, and cloth5 will outlast boots5 any day. So I get dorans in that situation, (or if they also get dorans which is great for you as well), but in dorans vs cloth5 you *need* to be hyper aggressive, no? You've got more damage, but they have sustain and you don't, so you need to reeeeaally punish them out of lane early.
But playing hyper aggressive top lane that early, (especially if you start purple side imo) is just asking to be ganked, and panth with no boots getting ganked early is like instant death, or at the very least forced to blow flash at which point rammus just comes back 15 seconds later and finishes the deal T_T;
you play hyper aggressive until you get to their tower or until they gank you and you blow flash, at which point you back for pots, ward and/or another dblade/boots. I think I feel more free to just say fuck it and bluepill more than most people who, for no apparent reason, like to sit on a lane with no hp, no flash and no pots and then get mad when they die.
How the fuck do you finish a game as pantheon? I don't understand any of it.
I shit on my lane. Like SHIT on them. Poor riven has 7 cs before she hits 6. I jump mid and kill sion. I jump bot and get double kill. 9-1 before team fights happen, but I just can't actually carry anything with pantheon.
Just last game I go 9-1 in laning-ish phase, we lose game. Last night I went fucking 11-0 and we lose. I have roughly a 2:1 K:D ratio overall with panth, and a 40% winrate. It doesn't seem to matter how badly I win lane, I feel so useless late game. Blahhghghghhgh
On December 11 2011 10:53 Haemonculus wrote: How the fuck do you finish a game as pantheon? I don't understand any of it.
I shit on my lane. Like SHIT on them. Poor riven has 7 cs before she hits 6. I jump mid and kill sion. I jump bot and get double kill. 9-1 before team fights happen, but I just can't actually carry anything with pantheon.
Just last game I go 9-1 in laning-ish phase, we lose game. Last night I went fucking 11-0 and we lose. I have roughly a 2:1 K:D ratio overall with panth, and a 40% winrate. It doesn't seem to matter how badly I win lane, I feel so useless late game. Blahhghghghhgh
smash can probably explain better than me, but whenever I play panth, after laning phase is over I stock up on wards and just splitpush all fucking day. when teamfights break out, i ulti on top of the enemy carries and explode them as best as I can. The channel time allows you to arrive after the cc has been blown so it's generaly a very easy thing to just blow up at least one of their carries after ulting onto them. Panth is kinda weak lategame cause he's so squishy, but if you've been doing well and you have bruta/LW and at least 2 BTs you should melt squishies like nobodies business.
Hmmm... I'll try the splitpush thing. I find that like teamfights start and no one is organized to land good CC or anything. Blahhh. Once you get that first BT or mebbe a 2nd BF sword you start to do downright silly damage, but it's just not enough. It's not like a real carry where you can actually incinerate people. You're sooooo strong 1v1, but merely the presence of a 2nd enemy and you can't seem to do anything T_T
edit: Like, if there's ever a point in any game where I'm 11-0 as cait or vayne, I just right click on people and they melt instantly, and I'm far enough away to not die. Panth needs to be so close that you eat alllllll the CC and get focused super fast.
On December 11 2011 10:53 Haemonculus wrote: How the fuck do you finish a game as pantheon? I don't understand any of it.
I shit on my lane. Like SHIT on them. Poor riven has 7 cs before she hits 6. I jump mid and kill sion. I jump bot and get double kill. 9-1 before team fights happen, but I just can't actually carry anything with pantheon.
Just last game I go 9-1 in laning-ish phase, we lose game. Last night I went fucking 11-0 and we lose. I have roughly a 2:1 K:D ratio overall with panth, and a 40% winrate. It doesn't seem to matter how badly I win lane, I feel so useless late game. Blahhghghghhgh
smash can probably explain better than me, but whenever I play panth, after laning phase is over I stock up on wards and just splitpush all fucking day. when teamfights break out, i ulti on top of the enemy carries and explode them as best as I can. The channel time allows you to arrive after the cc has been blown so it's generaly a very easy thing to just blow up at least one of their carries after ulting onto them. Panth is kinda weak lategame cause he's so squishy, but if you've been doing well and you have bruta/LW and at least 2 BTs you should melt squishies like nobodies business.
a lot of times when pantheon gets fed, he can't carry and thus its better to let team mates take the kill. but the most effective pantheons builds are and boots + mass bloodthirsters.
seriously get blood thirsters non stop, do not ever get ghostblade cuz its weak late game (armor pen is weak and overrated).
GA really helps. If you have 10 kills and decent cs coming out of laning phase, you should still be doing terrible terrible dmg with only 1 BT(assuming u have 2 dblade and bruta as well). IMHO a GA before second BT could be worth it if you find yourself to likely be the prime target of focus fire. I would seriously recommend GA after 2 BTs though if you are still in the lead.
On December 11 2011 10:53 Haemonculus wrote: How the fuck do you finish a game as pantheon? I don't understand any of it.
I shit on my lane. Like SHIT on them. Poor riven has 7 cs before she hits 6. I jump mid and kill sion. I jump bot and get double kill. 9-1 before team fights happen, but I just can't actually carry anything with pantheon.
Just last game I go 9-1 in laning-ish phase, we lose game. Last night I went fucking 11-0 and we lose. I have roughly a 2:1 K:D ratio overall with panth, and a 40% winrate. It doesn't seem to matter how badly I win lane, I feel so useless late game. Blahhghghghhgh
I generally just babysit late game. Once you have like doran/doran/BT/BT/merc, just chuck spears at whoever is in range and wait for an assassin to try and kill your carry. Stun them and you+your carries damage should instantly melt anyone foolish enough to try. Or you can get GA/BV after your first BT and try leading the charge. After being rolled by panth all game, people generally panic and blow everything on you asap.
On December 11 2011 10:53 Haemonculus wrote: How the fuck do you finish a game as pantheon? I don't understand any of it.
I shit on my lane. Like SHIT on them. Poor riven has 7 cs before she hits 6. I jump mid and kill sion. I jump bot and get double kill. 9-1 before team fights happen, but I just can't actually carry anything with pantheon.
Just last game I go 9-1 in laning-ish phase, we lose game. Last night I went fucking 11-0 and we lose. I have roughly a 2:1 K:D ratio overall with panth, and a 40% winrate. It doesn't seem to matter how badly I win lane, I feel so useless late game. Blahhghghghhgh
I generally just babysit late game. Once you have like doran/doran/BT/BT/merc, just chuck spears at whoever is in range and wait for an assassin to try and kill your carry. Stun them and you+your carries damage should instantly melt anyone foolish enough to try. Or you can get GA/BV after your first BT and try leading the charge. After being rolled by panth all game, people generally panic and blow everything on you asap.
One thing I dont liek bout babysitting is that generally it's either assassins or bruisers diving your carry. If it's the former then you have np just gibbing the assassin. But if it's a bruiser diving the carry you're probably not gonna do much.
I tend to end games as Pantheon somewhere around 5:00 when their bot lane is level 2 and a combined 0/6 while I have a brutalizer and dblade and leona has philo + boots and we're both outleveling our solos .
If they're not just afking at fountain though, you win games as pantheon when you get your GA and split push. If your team cannot play split push well, you're fucked going into late game, plain and simple. The only way to play straight up 5v5 teamfights with Pantheon is to camp back with your carry and find HSS opportunities.
On December 13 2011 13:29 Haemonculus wrote: Yay less mana on W! That's actually going to be seriously useful early game!
Yup haha. I like the mentality of Riot in this game
- "Pantheon is rarely played, you think its because he falls of late game ? " - "Nah, lets buff his laning phase".
I sure ain't gonna complain tho. More kills early :D.
Had an amazing game with panth yesterday where I laned with blitz again trist/Zilean. Their jungle somehow gave blue to Zil, I 1st blooded him at lvl 2, started throwing spear non stop, and went 8-0 before the end of the laning phase :D
On December 13 2011 13:29 Haemonculus wrote: Yay less mana on W! That's actually going to be seriously useful early game!
Yup haha. I like the mentality of Riot in this game
- "Pantheon is rarely played, you think its because he falls of late game ? " - "Nah, lets buff his laning phase".
I sure ain't gonna complain tho. More kills early :D.
Had an amazing game with panth yesterday where I laned with blitz again trist/Zilean. Their jungle somehow gave blue to Zil, I 1st blooded him at lvl 2, started throwing spear non stop, and went 8-0 before the end of the laning phase :D
I'm glad they buffed his early game in all honesty. Riot's biggest problem as of late is homogenizing power curves, which makes for a boring game. By doing this, they're moving away from that trend (hopefully).
On December 13 2011 13:29 Haemonculus wrote: Yay less mana on W! That's actually going to be seriously useful early game!
Yup haha. I like the mentality of Riot in this game
- "Pantheon is rarely played, you think its because he falls of late game ? " - "Nah, lets buff his laning phase".
I sure ain't gonna complain tho. More kills early :D.
Had an amazing game with panth yesterday where I laned with blitz again trist/Zilean. Their jungle somehow gave blue to Zil, I 1st blooded him at lvl 2, started throwing spear non stop, and went 8-0 before the end of the laning phase :D
Haha yeah I was thinking the same thing. My bf read the notes before me and mentioned panth buffs so I was all excited. Maybe they gave him a little something to keep up late game with other AD casters? Then I read the actual notes and lol'd.
I'm glad it's not too strong a buff though, I like playing champs that aren't too popular. Panth is still extremely underestimated at my elo, and so is not often picked. Many trynd/riven players still try to trade hits with me at low level even after getting their faces wrecked. I don't want him to become popular T_T
On December 13 2011 13:29 Haemonculus wrote: Yay less mana on W! That's actually going to be seriously useful early game!
Yup haha. I like the mentality of Riot in this game
- "Pantheon is rarely played, you think its because he falls of late game ? " - "Nah, lets buff his laning phase".
I sure ain't gonna complain tho. More kills early :D.
Had an amazing game with panth yesterday where I laned with blitz again trist/Zilean. Their jungle somehow gave blue to Zil, I 1st blooded him at lvl 2, started throwing spear non stop, and went 8-0 before the end of the laning phase :D
Haha yeah I was thinking the same thing. My bf read the notes before me and mentioned panth buffs so I was all excited. Maybe they gave him a little something to keep up late game with other AD casters? Then I read the actual notes and lol'd.
I'm glad it's not too strong a buff though, I like playing champs that aren't too popular. Panth is still extremely underestimated at my elo, and so is not often picked. Many trynd/riven players still try to trade hits with me at low level even after getting their faces wrecked. I don't want him to become popular T_T
I really need to play Navitar and Brees in those matchups. I still seem to fuck Riven and Trynd in the face recently.
i am 99% confident at this point that pantheon just destroys riven. I've played the matchup 4 more times, and have won the matchup 4 more times, and it wasn't even remotely close.
i think if riven opens E and plays a bit passively til she gets razer/madred, she won't lose the lane and riven lategame v pantheon lategame, lol
the most troublesome rivens for me have all put lots of points in E and just played passively when it was on cooldown->blocked spears when it was ready.
On December 14 2011 04:59 gtrsrs wrote: i think if riven opens E and plays a bit passively til she gets razer/madred, she won't lose the lane and riven lategame v pantheon lategame, lol
the most troublesome rivens for me have all put lots of points in E and just played passively when it was on cooldown->blocked spears when it was ready.
Shhhhhhh.
Riven players, please ignore this advice, and keep maxing Q or W and trying to trade hits at lvl1.
On December 14 2011 04:59 gtrsrs wrote: i think if riven opens E and plays a bit passively til she gets razer/madred, she won't lose the lane and riven lategame v pantheon lategame, lol
the most troublesome rivens for me have all put lots of points in E and just played passively when it was on cooldown->blocked spears when it was ready.
you can run GP and panth oom if you get early levels of e
On December 14 2011 04:59 gtrsrs wrote: i think if riven opens E and plays a bit passively til she gets razer/madred, she won't lose the lane and riven lategame v pantheon lategame, lol
the most troublesome rivens for me have all put lots of points in E and just played passively when it was on cooldown->blocked spears when it was ready.
Shhhhhhh.
Riven players, please ignore this advice, and keep maxing Q or W and trying to trade hits at lvl1.
i'm a traitor as of yesterday now i play panth AND riven can't show bias any more T_T
Did anyone else see that video that was posted on Reddit about how to get Garen's ult to fire like twice as far as normal? Basically if you attempt to cast your ult while spinning, and then issue *no* other commands until your spin ends, Garen would ult the target you clicked on even if it had moved way out of range as soon as he stopped spinning. This required some finesse, as you had to predict where your target would be because if you moved at all while spinning the trick wouldn't work.
Same principle applies to HSS and Q. If you smartcast a Q while you are casting HSS, even if your target moves wildly out of range while casting, as soon as HSS is done channeling, you will chuck that spear. I was laning Panth vs Kass mid, and generally stomping his face in mantheon style. I jumped on his face, auto, HSS, and smartcast a Q. As soon as the stun wore off kass riftwalked away. HSS finished, and I chucked a spear across the entire goddamn lane. Not even a threw it *while* he was riftwalking. He finished his rift, and then I threw the spear, and it just traveled like 4 times as far as normal and hit him under tower.
Pretty snazzy trick for those jerks that like to flash out of your combo!
On December 15 2011 02:00 Haemonculus wrote: I discovered a fun pantheon trick last night.
Did anyone else see that video that was posted on Reddit about how to get Garen's ult to fire like twice as far as normal? Basically if you attempt to cast your ult while spinning, and then issue *no* other commands until your spin ends, Garen would ult the target you clicked on even if it had moved way out of range as soon as he stopped spinning. This required some finesse, as you had to predict where your target would be because if you moved at all while spinning the trick wouldn't work.
Same principle applies to HSS and Q. If you smartcast a Q while you are casting HSS, even if your target moves wildly out of range while casting, as soon as HSS is done channeling, you will chuck that spear. I was laning Panth vs Kass mid, and generally stomping his face in mantheon style. I jumped on his face, auto, HSS, and smartcast a Q. As soon as the stun wore off kass riftwalked away. HSS finished, and I chucked a spear across the entire goddamn lane. Not even a threw it *while* he was riftwalking. He finished his rift, and then I threw the spear, and it just traveled like 4 times as far as normal and hit him under tower.
Pretty snazzy trick for those jerks that like to flash out of your combo!
hmm, interesting. I did not know you could do that out of HSS because HSS is a channel that can be broken by issuing other commands (as opposed to stuff like garen spin/kenning lightning rush where you have to manually break the channel). I'll test it a bit later tonight.
but I do buffer stuff out of my ult with Pantheon multiple times per day. that shit is so hax. I fucking love it when someone goes apeshit trying to get out of my ult circle just for me to lane and Aegis jump 1500 range onto them for the kill.
Haha, I love doing that. The best part is how if you spam it right you not only jump on their face while falling out of the sky, but also throw a spear from somewhere up in the clouds. They see the circle of death, then a spear literally falls vertically down on them from the heavens, and then you land on them, and THEN your ult damage/sound effect hits. Hilarious shenanigans.
edit: As to my previous "trick", I haven't tested it extensively, so I can't be 100% sure that it works, but I definitely saw it last night and in a manly display of manliness panth threw that spear like 3-4 times as far as normal completely after kass had rifted.
On December 15 2011 02:17 Haemonculus wrote: Haha, I love doing that. The best part is how if you spam it right you not only jump on their face while falling out of the sky, but also throw a spear from somewhere up in the clouds. They see the circle of death, then a spear literally falls vertically down on them from the heavens, and then you land on them, and THEN your ult damage/sound effect hits. Hilarious shenanigans.
edit: As to my previous "trick", I haven't tested it extensively, so I can't be 100% sure that it works, but I definitely saw it last night and in a manly display of manliness panth threw that spear like 3-4 times as far as normal completely after kass had rifted.
omg, this one time, I ulted top on top of a Kass with like 200 HP and after my ult I only had like 50 mana, so I couldn't buffer aegis, so I just buffered a spear out of the sky. He rifted and flashed away like, all the way to baron opening where there was a ward and I'm just watching him like 2000 range away as a Spear comes flying downward on his head for 150% damage that just kills him followed by his, "/all OMG WTF!?!?!?" haha, Pantheon is so awesome.
0K you've got me, I'll buy him. I'm wondering tho, since I often ("often", he's barely played it seems to me) see Panth start with meki+2 for mana regen, do you go 21-0-9 Ezreal style with your doran to be able to hurl spears longer? And ignite > exhaust because you favor early kills, I guess.
Wowow never open meki pendant, lol. That's a horrid idea.
I have two panth setups. For mid lane, (laning vs casters), I run flat mp5 yellows. For top lane, (laning against bruisers), I run armor yellows. 21/0/9 or 21/2/7 depending on how likely I think I'm going to end up getting buffs. Starting with just that little bit of mana regen is really nice, but imo the only feasible item openings for Panth are dblade, (for like 90% of matchups top lane), or boots/3 for mid lane, (dodgin' spells all day).
On December 15 2011 04:06 freelander wrote: mogwai wrote earlier that doranblade opening counters cloth+5 pot
can someone explain why/how?
the HP/damage it gives you are enough that you can completely bully someone from level 1 who has neither i wouldn't call it a counter, but it's definitely a strong opening on some champs (panth, garen) who need AS MANY stats as they can get early. panth's spears have great AD scaling so you want as much AD as possible, and the hp lets you trade with someone who has pots. unfortunately, cloth + 5 is also in a way a counter to d-blade if played right. if the person with cloth + 5 trades with you until they are low (and you lose a little too), backs off and plays passively, pots up, and trades again til YOU are low, and still has pots left, they've essentially won the lane. their item will build into something and yours won't, you missed your window.
utilizing d-blade top is all about controlling the creep wave and engaging properly, and BURSTING them, not playing attrition
On December 15 2011 04:06 freelander wrote: mogwai wrote earlier that doranblade opening counters cloth+5 pot
can someone explain why/how?
the HP/damage it gives you are enough that you can completely bully someone from level 1 who has neither i wouldn't call it a counter, but it's definitely a strong opening on some champs (panth, garen) who need AS MANY stats as they can get early. panth's spears have great AD scaling so you want as much AD as possible, and the hp lets you trade with someone who has pots. unfortunately, cloth + 5 is also in a way a counter to d-blade if played right. if the person with cloth + 5 trades with you until they are low (and you lose a little too), backs off and plays passively, pots up, and trades again til YOU are low, and still has pots left, they've essentially won the lane. their item will build into something and yours won't, you missed your window.
utilizing d-blade top is all about controlling the creep wave and engaging properly, and BURSTING them, not playing attrition
gtrsrs real baddy. It's simple, you cannot commit to a fight with cloth armor vs. dblade, dblade guy wins every time. So essentially, with dblade, you picks fights and put the responsibility for disengaging on your opponents. Disengaging from dblade Pantheon with cloth armor means you eat an extra spear to the back of the head, every time. It also means that while you pot up, Pantheon builds his passive back up and lifesteals and gains cs and levels on you. This means you simple cannot fight him until the creep wave equalizes so that you catch up in levels and have time to let your pots kick in, which can only happen once it gets to your tower because Pantheon will not let you get into position to shove the wave back without forcing another unfavorable trade. Once he gets you to your tower, Pantheon has an option: 1. he's ahead enough to dive you and kill you (always good for panth, even if he dies because he gets FB gold and you miss out of a ton of XP to the tower murdering his pushing wave) 2. he's not ahead enough to dive you and he backs off to buy. now, this might seem to be like it's a way that he lets you catch back up, but in reality this FUCKS people up because they're usually down 3-4 pots, down in cs from having to last hit under tower at low level and Pantheon returns with bare minimum 3 pots + a ward or even up to boots + that or a 2nd dblade + ward + 1-2 pots. If you try to catch up to him on items, you have to back. If you back, he can push the wave to your tower if his wave is pushing, or even worse he can pull the wave to his tower if your wave is pushing, which lets him safely zone you with a river ward and item advantage.
thing is, that even if they could break completely even with you with cloth + 5 pots, they consumed 175 gold on potions, while you didn't. I don't care if cloth builds into stuff, dblade is stupidly efficient, I wouldn't regret the purchase because they're not looking at the same sort of efficiency from their cloth armor until they get to wriggle's which is 1300 gold down the road, 1650 if they want boots and more realistically ~2000 if they want to ward and get the pots they need to not get butchered like an animal in lane.
On December 15 2011 04:06 freelander wrote: mogwai wrote earlier that doranblade opening counters cloth+5 pot
can someone explain why/how?
the HP/damage it gives you are enough that you can completely bully someone from level 1 who has neither i wouldn't call it a counter, but it's definitely a strong opening on some champs (panth, garen) who need AS MANY stats as they can get early. panth's spears have great AD scaling so you want as much AD as possible, and the hp lets you trade with someone who has pots. unfortunately, cloth + 5 is also in a way a counter to d-blade if played right. if the person with cloth + 5 trades with you until they are low (and you lose a little too), backs off and plays passively, pots up, and trades again til YOU are low, and still has pots left, they've essentially won the lane. their item will build into something and yours won't, you missed your window.
utilizing d-blade top is all about controlling the creep wave and engaging properly, and BURSTING them, not playing attrition
gtrsrs real baddy. It's simple, you cannot commit to a fight with cloth armor vs. dblade, dblade guy wins every time. So essentially, with dblade, you picks fights and put the responsibility for disengaging on your opponents. Disengaging from dblade Pantheon with cloth armor means you eat an extra spear to the back of the head, every time. It also means that while you pot up, Pantheon builds his passive back up and lifesteals and gains cs and levels on you. This means you simple cannot fight him until the creep wave equalizes so that you catch up in levels and have time to let your pots kick in, which can only happen once it gets to your tower because Pantheon will not let you get into position to shove the wave back without forcing another unfavorable trade. Once he gets you to your tower, Pantheon has an option: 1. he's ahead enough to dive you and kill you (always good for panth, even if he dies because he gets FB gold and you miss out of a ton of XP to the tower murdering his pushing wave) 2. he's not ahead enough to dive you and he backs off to buy. now, this might seem to be like it's a way that he lets you catch back up, but in reality this FUCKS people up because they're usually down 3-4 pots, down in cs from having to last hit under tower at low level and Pantheon returns with bare minimum 3 pots + a ward or even up to boots + that or a 2nd dblade + ward + 1-2 pots. If you try to catch up to him on items, you have to back. If you back, he can push the wave to your tower if his wave is pushing, or even worse he can pull the wave to his tower if your wave is pushing, which lets him safely zone you with a river ward and item advantage.
thing is, that even if they could break completely even with you with cloth + 5 pots, they consumed 175 gold on potions, while you didn't. I don't care if cloth builds into stuff, dblade is stupidly efficient, I wouldn't regret the purchase because they're not looking at the same sort of efficiency from their cloth armor until they get to wriggle's which is 1300 gold down the road, 1650 if they want boots and more realistically ~2000 if they want to ward and get the pots they need to not get butchered like an animal in lane.
i mean it's not that cut and dry but that's the gist of why d-blade is good it's definitely not failproof, and cloth + 5 is 100% the strongest opening against pantheon
On December 15 2011 04:06 freelander wrote: mogwai wrote earlier that doranblade opening counters cloth+5 pot
can someone explain why/how?
the HP/damage it gives you are enough that you can completely bully someone from level 1 who has neither i wouldn't call it a counter, but it's definitely a strong opening on some champs (panth, garen) who need AS MANY stats as they can get early. panth's spears have great AD scaling so you want as much AD as possible, and the hp lets you trade with someone who has pots. unfortunately, cloth + 5 is also in a way a counter to d-blade if played right. if the person with cloth + 5 trades with you until they are low (and you lose a little too), backs off and plays passively, pots up, and trades again til YOU are low, and still has pots left, they've essentially won the lane. their item will build into something and yours won't, you missed your window.
utilizing d-blade top is all about controlling the creep wave and engaging properly, and BURSTING them, not playing attrition
gtrsrs real baddy. It's simple, you cannot commit to a fight with cloth armor vs. dblade, dblade guy wins every time. So essentially, with dblade, you picks fights and put the responsibility for disengaging on your opponents. Disengaging from dblade Pantheon with cloth armor means you eat an extra spear to the back of the head, every time. It also means that while you pot up, Pantheon builds his passive back up and lifesteals and gains cs and levels on you. This means you simple cannot fight him until the creep wave equalizes so that you catch up in levels and have time to let your pots kick in, which can only happen once it gets to your tower because Pantheon will not let you get into position to shove the wave back without forcing another unfavorable trade. Once he gets you to your tower, Pantheon has an option: 1. he's ahead enough to dive you and kill you (always good for panth, even if he dies because he gets FB gold and you miss out of a ton of XP to the tower murdering his pushing wave) 2. he's not ahead enough to dive you and he backs off to buy. now, this might seem to be like it's a way that he lets you catch back up, but in reality this FUCKS people up because they're usually down 3-4 pots, down in cs from having to last hit under tower at low level and Pantheon returns with bare minimum 3 pots + a ward or even up to boots + that or a 2nd dblade + ward + 1-2 pots. If you try to catch up to him on items, you have to back. If you back, he can push the wave to your tower if his wave is pushing, or even worse he can pull the wave to his tower if your wave is pushing, which lets him safely zone you with a river ward and item advantage.
thing is, that even if they could break completely even with you with cloth + 5 pots, they consumed 175 gold on potions, while you didn't. I don't care if cloth builds into stuff, dblade is stupidly efficient, I wouldn't regret the purchase because they're not looking at the same sort of efficiency from their cloth armor until they get to wriggle's which is 1300 gold down the road, 1650 if they want boots and more realistically ~2000 if they want to ward and get the pots they need to not get butchered like an animal in lane.
couldn't have said it better myself, except I used dblade gangplank. Same exact counter to any champion taking cloth + 5. The only way to counter it is a level 2 gank from their jungler.
On December 15 2011 05:06 Haemonculus wrote: So what are some matchups that panth just plain loses? Enemy firstpicks pantheon, who do we send top to make him sad panda?
they've all gone out of style. I would pick solo Malphite, Alistar, or Galio and just play stupidly passive.
On December 15 2011 05:06 Haemonculus wrote: So what are some matchups that panth just plain loses? Enemy firstpicks pantheon, who do we send top to make him sad panda?
armor runes nasus is a pick you don't want. he can just play passively and win lategame. i still think riven is a bad MU for panth. ryze can be a bother sometimes. talon can be troublesome if he gets fb
On December 15 2011 05:06 Haemonculus wrote: So what are some matchups that panth just plain loses? Enemy firstpicks pantheon, who do we send top to make him sad panda?
armor runes nasus is a pick you don't want. he can just play passively and win lategame. i still think riven is a bad MU for panth. ryze can be a bother sometimes. talon can be troublesome if he gets fb
nasus can't do crap against panth...he can only start tanking out your burst once he gets chain vest+cloth and if you're playing it right nasus won't be able to get those items until you have bruta+hella levels on him.
nah a well-played, careful nasus can sacrifice early farm, patiently wait out shroud, and then turn the lane/game around your standard regrowth opening nasus that takes Q at level 1 is gonna get pooped on, but a smart nasus can definitely not die, take teleport, wait til he has a few levels of spirit fire and a defensive item, and then start farming hard
On December 15 2011 05:51 gtrsrs wrote: nah a well-played, careful nasus can sacrifice early farm, patiently wait out shroud, and then turn the lane/game around your standard regrowth opening nasus that takes Q at level 1 is gonna get pooped on, but a smart nasus can definitely not die, take teleport, wait til he has a few levels of spirit fire and a defensive item, and then start farming hard
On December 15 2011 05:51 gtrsrs wrote: nah a well-played, careful nasus can sacrifice early farm, patiently wait out shroud, and then turn the lane/game around your standard regrowth opening nasus that takes Q at level 1 is gonna get pooped on, but a smart nasus can definitely not die, take teleport, wait til he has a few levels of spirit fire and a defensive item, and then start farming hard
even if this is the case (and tbh i dont think it is), all of the sudden you have a free farming panth who is going to royally shit on the other 2 lanes + possibly jungler. Panth just has extraordinary midgame presence with his ult, just like TF, meanwhile nasus is going to be 30+ cs behind at the least, and it will prob take him another 10 or more minutes to even get back into the game.
i don't think that's the case if panth leaves to stomp other lanes, nasus is free to farm so panth kind of HAS to stay and babysit nasus, lessening his effect on other lanes. and even then it's just like a timebomb, you hammer him all day but eventually he's gonna get that farm and blow your team up
i dunno what to say. i know this is anecdotal but i've definitely seen this happen. it's just extremely hard to get kills against a safe, smart player with teleport. and panth relies on those kills. a good player knows a wave or two of CS won't lose the game in a nasus v panth matchup. like i said, a good panth will stomp a good nasus in solo queue, but a great nasus that REALLY wants to play smart and win, will not die to a great panth.
i should also put an addendum that early ganks will help decide this lane too. wither is one of the best gank-assisting skills in the game and panth has no escapes... but likewise panth has enough burst to kill anyone with a little help and nasus has no escapes...
So how is nasus supposed to farm after the first spirit fire pushes the creep wave to the middle of the lane and pantheon just does pantheon shit and poops on nasus head without having to worry about a turret?
On December 15 2011 06:00 Two_DoWn wrote: So how is nasus supposed to farm after the first spirit fire pushes the creep wave to the middle of the lane and pantheon just does pantheon shit and poops on nasus head without having to worry about a turret?
he doesn't farm, and he doesn't push the first wave. he just last hits and heals up with pots. when panth starts doing too much damage he backs off, lets the lane push to his tower, spirit fires to hold it in a safe position, uses teleport when necessary, etc. nasus should never push the lane against panth obviously. he wants the lane open for ganks against panth, not the other way around
On December 15 2011 05:59 gtrsrs wrote: i don't think that's the case if panth leaves to stomp other lanes, nasus is free to farm so panth kind of HAS to stay and babysit nasus, lessening his effect on other lanes. and even then it's just like a timebomb, you hammer him all day but eventually he's gonna get that farm and blow your team up
i dunno what to say. i know this is anecdotal but i've definitely seen this happen. it's just extremely hard to get kills against a safe, smart player with teleport. and panth relies on those kills. a good player knows a wave or two of CS won't lose the game in a nasus v panth matchup. like i said, a good panth will stomp a good nasus in solo queue, but a great nasus that REALLY wants to play smart and win, will not die to a great panth.
i should also put an addendum that early ganks will help decide this lane too. wither is one of the best gank-assisting skills in the game and panth has no escapes... but likewise panth has enough burst to kill anyone with a little help and nasus has no escapes...
stop the presses, are you seriously trying to talk down to me about my experiences in the matchup and skill level? captain thank-god-they-lowered-the-bar-to-1520-so-that-I-can-get-Victorious-Jarman is talking to me, Smash fucking Gizmo, about how at a level higher than mine, Nasus will beat Pantheon's ass. please, give me a fucking break. when great players play, they're content making the game a 4v5 by babysitting Nasus and making sure he stays underfarmed and underleveled rather than derping around and ganking with Pantheon ult and letting a character with better scaling back into the game.
Sure, if Nasus's team is crushing Pantheon's team, Nasus will get the oppurtunity to get back into the game, but assuming the game isn't a steamroll anyway, I see no reason to ever pull my dick out of Nasus's mouth, so I just don't. I keep facefucking him, over and over and over again.
Well, I think the argument here is that Guitar is saying that nasus can not die when playing against pantheon, yet still be a viable pick because he eventually becomes useful, not that he beats pants in lane.
Personally, I feel the point is moot. Not dying to pantheon but sacrificing your farm in the process is essentially a pantheon win. His job is to take someone out of the game. If you do it voluntarily, well, you just did his job for him. I mean, even not dying as nasus doesnt mean anything because pantheon can just free farm his facefuck items off the minions, not have to worry about making you sacrifice your own farm because you do it for him, then he can end the game before nasus catches up (which is really what pantheon is all about- no one can say with a straight face that he is an asset to the team past 30 minutes).
... i can, i think a lot of ppl overestimate how much he falls off late game. Yes, he does fall off, but you can't say that it becomes a 4v5 late game. Not to mention, he has an incredible split push presence, and can just force 5v4 fights all day, or else he just takes towers.
a smart team can do the following nasus with armor runes, cloth + 5 pots top aggressive, early-ganking jungler ala noc, pirate, skarner, udyr, w/e solid, hard-to-gank mid, ala karthus, kennen, vladimir
jungler babysits nasus top against pantheon. every 1.5 minutes you have skarner charging into your lane wreaking bloody hell on you. pantheon has 2 choices: play less aggressively, giving up his edge, or be killed by continuous ganks (or be forced back by continuous ganks).
enemy jungler has 2 options: counter-babysit nasus. you now have 2 people dedicated to shutting down 1, and 1 of yours is worthless past 20 minutes, OR exclusively gank other lanes (which is a hard thing against kennen etc) and let nasus farm with the help of his jungler.
neither of those are optimal for pantheon.
you don't need to flame and pull out your e-peen. am i saying nasus beats pantheon and you're a shit player? no, none of the above. am i saying that pantheon can crush nasus if nasus doesn't play the lane right? absolutely. but rhavanna asked for things you can do against pantheon, and this is definitely one of them. i've seen it done, i've done it myself, and i know that it's (tough, but) possible
that's about all i have to say on this topic, you can take your rage elsewhere
On December 15 2011 06:14 Two_DoWn wrote: Well, I think the argument here is that Guitar is saying that nasus can not die when playing against pantheon, yet still be a viable pick because he eventually becomes useful, not that he beats pants in lane.
Personally, I feel the point is moot. Not dying to pantheon but sacrificing your farm in the process is essentially a pantheon win. His job is to take someone out of the game. If you do it voluntarily, well, you just did his job for him. I mean, even not dying as nasus doesnt mean anything because pantheon can just free farm his facefuck items off the minions, not have to worry about making you sacrifice your own farm because you do it for him, then he can end the game before nasus catches up (which is really what pantheon is all about- no one can say with a straight face that he is an asset to the team past 30 minutes).
Pantheon's wall is closer to 40 minutes than 30 tbh.
On December 15 2011 06:21 gtrsrs wrote: a smart team can do the following nasus with armor runes, cloth + 5 pots top aggressive, early-ganking jungler ala noc, pirate, skarner, udyr, w/e solid, hard-to-gank mid, ala karthus, kennen, vladimir
jungler babysits nasus top against pantheon. every 1.5 minutes you have skarner charging into your lane wreaking bloody hell on you. pantheon has 2 choices: play less aggressively, giving up his edge, or be killed by continuous ganks (or be forced back by continuous ganks).
enemy jungler has 2 options: counter-babysit nasus. you now have 2 people dedicated to shutting down 1, and 1 of yours is worthless past 20 minutes, OR exclusively gank other lanes (which is a hard thing against kennen etc) and let nasus farm with the help of his jungler.
neither of those are optimal for pantheon.
you don't need to flame and pull out your e-peen. am i saying nasus beats pantheon and you're a shit player? no, none of the above. am i saying that pantheon can crush nasus if nasus doesn't play the lane right? absolutely. but rhavanna asked for things you can do against pantheon, and this is definitely one of them. i've seen it done, i've done it myself, and i know that it's (tough, but) possible
that's about all i have to say on this topic, you can take your rage elsewhere
look, you want to have this discussion, I'm happy to have it with you. If you made this post to begin with there would be no problem whatsoever. but you don't get to say shit like, "oh well, a great Pantheon vs. a great Nasus is different" to me. you haven't earned that. Loci wants to tell me that, sure, I'll listen. Maknoon wants to tell me that, sure, I'll listen. but you have to earn that shit and you haven't, so w/e, I don't regret anything I said. I've played this game too damn much and gotten too damn good to tolerate disrespectful bullshit about Pantheon of all characters.
if Pantheon's jungler camps the lane along with Nasus's jungler, team Pantheon isn't dedicating 2 people to shutting down 1, they're dedicating 2 people to shutting down 2 (remember, Nasus's jungle has to camp the lane to even force Pantheon's jungler to do the same). it doesn't matter if they pick option 1 or 2, both are viable depending on the opposing team and Pantheon is buying his team those options. dragging a jungler into a matchup as an integral part of how it has to play out so that you don't get murdered is an indication in and of itself that it's a disadvantageous matchup.
so sure, Nasus can 2v1 with a friend and beat Pantheon, but if that's your plan for making this counter work, you might as well pick Irelia who can deal with the 1v1 a hell of a lot sooner and scales almost as well to lategame.
On December 15 2011 05:06 Haemonculus wrote: So what are some matchups that panth just plain loses? Enemy firstpicks pantheon, who do we send top to make him sad panda?
they've all gone out of style. I would pick solo Malphite, Alistar, or Galio and just play stupidly passive.
Although it's not a direct lane counter, I remember Loci would always shit his pants when he went Panth and the enemy team picked up Janna
my post wasn't intended to be disrespectful smash You are a great panth but you aren't the end all be all, you need to have a more open mind. Kills are hard to come by in arranged play especially the higher level you get to A champ that relies on (repeatably) killing his lane opponent to get ahead is going to be focused by enemy jungler. It's that simple I've made the concession multiple times here that solo queue is different and yes panth is gonna see more success there
I don't even want to get into the respect argument with you here, that's so offtopic and completely unrelated
On December 15 2011 09:20 gtrsrs wrote: my post wasn't intended to be disrespectful smash You are a great panth but you aren't the end all be all, you need to have a more open mind. Kills are hard to come by in arranged play especially the higher level you get to A champ that relies on (repeatably) killing his lane opponent to get ahead is going to be focused by enemy jungler. It's that simple I've made the concession multiple times here that solo queue is different and yes panth is gonna see more success there
I don't even want to get into the respect argument with you here, that's so offtopic and completely unrelated
It was disrespectful, straight up, and you're spouting really stupid shit in a really arrogant way, so I'm taking you down a notch, suck it up and deal with it. I'm not the end all be all, but I know more than enough to know pantheon rapes nasus 6 ways from sunday. and the fact that you think Pantheon needs to repeatedly kill his opponent makes me think a hell of a lot less of your opinion.
and shit you're talking about solo vs. arranged like somehow it's more viable to camp top in arranged than solo. are you kidding me? any team worth anything is going to punish you camping top by taking uncontested dragons, while a solo queue jungler will just derp around farming small camps while Pantheon has to 1v2. if your pick vs. Pantheon is Nasus, you're hamstringing yourself. it's a stupid pick, period.
Absolutely none of my posts were arrogant or stupid. I've raised valid points in a calm respectful way and you and your cronies are just yelling at me mocking me and bashing me for no reason. Just because you've never been to china doesn't mean it doesn't exist, gizbro. Likewise, just because you can beat nasus every time doesn't mean my suggestions are wrong. But please, keep raving. I neverthought of all the dunderheads that post here you would reach this level of craziness. Much respect lost bro
On December 15 2011 14:50 gtrsrs wrote: Absolutely none of my posts were arrogant or stupid. I've raised valid points in a calm respectful way and you and your cronies are just yelling at me mocking me and bashing me for no reason. Just because you've never been to china doesn't mean it doesn't exist, gizbro. Likewise, just because you can beat nasus every time doesn't mean my suggestions are wrong. But please, keep raving. I neverthought of all the dunderheads that post here you would reach this level of craziness. Much respect lost bro
Generally its a bad idea to claim you aren't being arrogant by calling the rest of us retards.
he's just telling one of TL's most consistently high rated players who has been known for playing Pantheon how a good matchup isn't actually a good matchup when great players play it. he wasn't calling anyone retards, he was just saying stupid stuff with such conviction. and god, all he had to do was say "in my experience, Nasus can play passive and not die and I think that's good enough" and I would've been fine having a civil discussion, but jesus tittyfucking christ he had to start talking about "great players" vs. "good players."
w/e, should just be dropped, I'm sure I'll live just fine without gtrsrs's respect and there's nothing productive that can come from this anymore. I've explained why the matchup sucks for Nasus and guitar disagrees for bad reasons, it's an impasse and should just be left there.
On December 15 2011 14:50 gtrsrs wrote: Absolutely none of my posts were arrogant or stupid. I've raised valid points in a calm respectful way and you and your cronies are just yelling at me mocking me and bashing me for no reason. Just because you've never been to china doesn't mean it doesn't exist, gizbro. Likewise, just because you can beat nasus every time doesn't mean my suggestions are wrong. But please, keep raving. I neverthought of all the dunderheads that post here you would reach this level of craziness. Much respect lost bro
Generally its a bad idea to claim you aren't being arrogant by calling the rest of us retards.
please quote where i said anything like that? oh wait just two_downs making stuff up as usual
On December 15 2011 15:47 Mogwai wrote: he's just telling one of TL's most consistently high rated players who has been known for playing Pantheon how a good matchup isn't actually a good matchup when great players play it. he wasn't calling anyone retards, he was just saying stupid stuff with such conviction. and god, all he had to do was say "in my experience, Nasus can play passive and not die and I think that's good enough" and I would've been fine having a civil discussion, but jesus tittyfucking christ he had to start talking about "great players" vs. "good players."
w/e, should just be dropped, I'm sure I'll live just fine without gtrsrs's respect and there's nothing productive that can come from this anymore. I've explained why the matchup sucks for Nasus and guitar disagrees for bad reasons, it's an impasse and should just be left there.
your post reminds me of that one tournament game where CLG took that one champ and TSM took a champ that counters him and CLG got stomped. nope, no it doesn't, because in high level play, teams don't play super stupidly aggressive, teams don't bank on early-game champs, teams protect their lategame assets, etc etc etc
i didn't mean to insinuate that you weren't a great player. my whole point was that as you get to higher skill levels (hence the comparison from good to great, where great is clearly better), it gets harder and harder to kill anyone in lane, because people are better at judging when they'll die and preventing that. YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS.
"winning a lane" is different for every champ. for singed, winning a lane is taking a tower or 10 by the 20 minute mark. for caitlyn, winning a lane is getting more CS than the enemy ranged carry and dicking their early game a bit. for pantheon, winning a lane is completely shutting another person out of the game. for nasus, winning a lane is just surviving to a point where he gets 1 or 2 items and can freefarm his big items from there (IMO). the ENTIRE reason i listed nasus as a "counter" to panth is that a good nasus can just survive til lategame and have more of an impact. look at panth's skills v nasus's skills. panth has 3 skills that do high damage and need damage items to fuel them. nasus has 0 skills that need items to fuel them. wither doesn't scale on anything. spirit fire will always reduce the same amount of armor no matter how much of your triforce you have built. his ult will give him a flat X00 HP even if you shut him down early. in MY eyes, nasus is a great teamfighter even without a superior build. the fact that he can also build pure tank and probably have more of a lategame impact than a fully squishy/offensive pantheon TO ME means that nasus is a "counter"
sorry that i didn't go that far in depth in my original post. i can extrapolate on why i think the other champs i listed do well too, if you want. then two_downs can accuse me of insulting your skill, dnastyx can act like a 14 year old, and you can get insulted for no reason, all over again!
Looking at this from a neutral perspective, I don't see Nasus as a counter to Pantheon. But I don't see Pantheon as a counter to Nasus either. And I think you guys are arguing over nothing.
Nasus has a viable game-plan against Pantheon. That's fairly obvious. Try to stick around in lane and eventually get to farm your shit (either when Pantheon leaves to do other shit, or with some amount of babysitting). Outscale the fuck out of Pantheon lategame as a hard melee carry (in other words, Nasus' game-plan against basically everyone).
Pantheon also has a viable game-plan against Nasus. Facefuck him in lane. Deny him CS, and kill him if possible. Get free-farm. Then when you are ready, go make shit happen around the map and end the game before Nasus has a chance to recover and farm up to his invincible melee-carry status.
These are both stable strategies. One of them doesn't inherently "counter" the other. One is focused on dragging out the game into a lategame carry scenario, while the other is looking at an aggressive gank->push strategy that wants to end the game early. The success of either strategy is dependent on how its supported by the other 4 members of each team, both in terms of how well they play, and how well the picks support the general strategy. How good is Nasus' team at stalling and holding onto shit? How good is Pantheon's team at taking objectives? How strong is the initiation/counter-initiation involved? Pantheon can shit on Nasus all he wants, but if his team doesn't have the means to take objectives, then it's rough turning your lane advantage into a win before Nasus eventually gets to farm his shit. Likewise, Nasus can farm all he wants, but if his team can't stall towers/inhibs/Baron until he gets big, it's not going to accomplish anything.
On December 15 2011 16:38 TheYango wrote: Looking at this from a neutral perspective, I don't see Nasus as a counter to Pantheon. But I don't see Pantheon as a counter to Nasus either. And I think you guys are arguing over nothing.
Nasus has a viable game-plan against Pantheon. That's fairly obvious. Try to stick around in lane and eventually get to farm your shit (either when Pantheon leaves to do other shit, or with some amount of babysitting). Outscale the fuck out of Pantheon lategame as a hard melee carry (in other words, Nasus' game-plan against basically everyone).
Pantheon also has a viable game-plan against Nasus. Facefuck him in lane. Deny him CS, and kill him if possible. Get free-farm. Then when you are ready, go make shit happen around the map and end the game before Nasus has a chance to recover and farm up to his invincible melee-carry status.
These are both stable strategies.One of them doesn't inherently "counter" the other. One is focused on dragging out the game into a lategame carry scenario, while the other is looking at an aggressive gank->push strategy that wants to end the game early. The success of either strategy is dependent on how its supported by the other 4 members of each team, both in terms of how well they play, and how well the picks support the general strategy. How good is Nasus' team at stalling and holding onto shit? How good is Pantheon's team at taking objectives? How strong is the initiation/counter-initiation involved? Pantheon can shit on Nasus all he wants, but if his team doesn't have the means to take objectives, then it's rough turning your lane advantage into a win before Nasus eventually gets to farm his shit. Likewise, Nasus can farm all he wants, but if his team can't stall towers/inhibs/Baron until he gets big, it's not going to accomplish anything.
That entire paragraph, however, boils down to basically whichever team plays better wins. Which is kind of a dumb argument in the whole panth v. nasus debate because that's kinda how you win a game of LoL regardless of champ select; whichever team plays better with their comp wins.
The problem I have with guitar's argument is that he's more or less saying that if Nasus has a better team he'll win, which is a stupid argument imo. When dealing with lane matchups it's kinda pointless to bring in the entire team into the equation because then almost every matchup is theoretically "winnable." It's important to take note of the jungler, but honestly, if in order to win or even equalize your lane you absolutely need to bring the jungler into the equation it's kind of indicative of a bad matchup don't you think?
On December 15 2011 15:41 Two_DoWn wrote: Generally its a bad idea to claim you aren't being arrogant by calling the rest of us retards.
On December 15 2011 14:50 gtrsrs wrote: Absolutely none of my posts were arrogant or stupid. I've raised valid points in a calm respectful way and you and your cronies are just yelling at me mocking me and bashing me for no reason. Just because you've never been to china doesn't mean it doesn't exist, gizbro. Likewise, just because you can beat nasus every time doesn't mean my suggestions are wrong. But please, keep raving. I neverthought of all the dunderheads that post here you would reach this level of craziness. Much respect lost bro
Yea, you pretty much called us retards. Maybe you weren't trying to be arrogant, but some of your posts sounded a bit lofty imho
On December 15 2011 17:02 Ryuu314 wrote: That entire paragraph, however, boils down to basically whichever team plays better wins. Which is kind of a dumb argument in the whole panth v. nasus debate because that's kinda how you win a game of LoL regardless of champ select; whichever team plays better with their comp wins.
The problem I have with guitar's argument is that he's more or less saying that if Nasus has a better team he'll win, which is a stupid argument imo. When dealing with lane matchups it's kinda pointless to bring in the entire team into the equation because then almost every matchup is theoretically "winnable." It's important to take note of the jungler, but honestly, if in order to win or even equalize your lane you absolutely need to bring the jungler into the equation it's kind of indicative of a bad matchup don't you think?
Pantheon is a midgame tempo-carrying champ. Nasus is a late-game carry. It's Pantheon's ROLE to stunt Nasus' development, and if he weren't good at it to some extent, then he would be worthless as a champ.
No, I don't think it's farfetched to assume a scenario where Nasus is getting help in lane, because it's not at all farfetched for a team to be allocating a large fraction of resources toward securing the development of a lategame carry. That's how you're supposed to play when your team has a champ that outscales the other 9 players in the game. From the perspective of a jungler, I don't even think I would pick Nasus at all if I weren't expecting to do a significant amount of babysitting for him.
Assuming the mirror-scenario where the enemy jungler babysits Pantheon doesn't achieve the same effect because Pantheon is not a late-game carry. Going out of your way to babysit his development doesn't pay dividends in nearly the same way. It's not about Pantheon's team being "worse" than Nasus' team--it's about the fact that the payoff for the enemy jungler making an inordinate presence to help Pantheon is much lower than for Nasus' jungler helping him, and therefore it's natural to expect a larger jungler presence from Nasus' team.
On December 15 2011 17:02 Ryuu314 wrote: That entire paragraph, however, boils down to basically whichever team plays better wins. Which is kind of a dumb argument in the whole panth v. nasus debate because that's kinda how you win a game of LoL regardless of champ select; whichever team plays better with their comp wins.
The problem I have with guitar's argument is that he's more or less saying that if Nasus has a better team he'll win, which is a stupid argument imo. When dealing with lane matchups it's kinda pointless to bring in the entire team into the equation because then almost every matchup is theoretically "winnable." It's important to take note of the jungler, but honestly, if in order to win or even equalize your lane you absolutely need to bring the jungler into the equation it's kind of indicative of a bad matchup don't you think?
Pantheon is a midgame tempo-carrying champ. Nasus is a late-game carry. It's Pantheon's ROLE to stunt Nasus' development, and if he weren't good at it to some extent, then he would be worthless as a champ.
No, I don't think it's farfetched to assume a scenario where Nasus is getting help in lane, because it's not at all farfetched for a team to be allocating a large fraction of resources toward securing the development of a lategame carry. That's how you're supposed to play when your team has a champ that outscales the other 9 players in the game. From the perspective of a jungler, I don't even think I would pick Nasus at all if I weren't expecting to do a significant amount of babysitting for him.
Assuming the mirror-scenario where the enemy jungler babysits Pantheon doesn't achieve the same effect because Pantheon is not a late-game carry. Going out of your way to babysit his development doesn't pay dividends in nearly the same way. It's not about Pantheon's team being "worse" than Nasus' team--it's about the fact that the payoff for the enemy jungler making an inordinate presence to help Pantheon is much lower than for Nasus' jungler helping him, and therefore it's natural to expect a larger jungler presence from Nasus' team.
Fair enough. But if the jungler is babysitting Nasus's lane then Smash's point about the Panth's jungler having uncontested map control is fair game. If Nasus's jungler spends too much time up top then Panth's jungler is free to take buffs/dragons and the rest of Panth's team is free to push all day.
On December 15 2011 17:02 Ryuu314 wrote: Yea, you pretty much called us retards. Maybe you weren't trying to be arrogant, but some of your posts sounded a bit lofty imho
i actually like you ryuu, i wasn't referring to you it was mostly brees/twodowns/dnasty/jackdino/all the other people who respond to everything i say with "lol ur bad" that i was referring to but keep posting itt and find yourself on that list!
On December 15 2011 17:20 Ryuu314 wrote: Fair enough. But if the jungler is babysitting Nasus's lane then Smash's point about the Panth's jungler having uncontested map control is fair game. If Nasus's jungler spends too much time up top then Panth's jungler is free to take buffs/dragons and the rest of Panth's team is free to push all day.
An early-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things early-game. A late-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things late-game. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone. But just saying that doesn't tell you anything about the interactions between those champs. If early-game champs having an advantage early on was enough to win games, then people would always play early-game dominators, and nobody would play late-game carries.
On December 15 2011 16:38 TheYango wrote: Looking at this from a neutral perspective, I don't see Nasus as a counter to Pantheon. But I don't see Pantheon as a counter to Nasus either. And I think you guys are arguing over nothing.
Nasus has a viable game-plan against Pantheon. That's fairly obvious. Try to stick around in lane and eventually get to farm your shit (either when Pantheon leaves to do other shit, or with some amount of babysitting). Outscale the fuck out of Pantheon lategame as a hard melee carry (in other words, Nasus' game-plan against basically everyone).
Pantheon also has a viable game-plan against Nasus. Facefuck him in lane. Deny him CS, and kill him if possible. Get free-farm. Then when you are ready, go make shit happen around the map and end the game before Nasus has a chance to recover and farm up to his invincible melee-carry status.
These are both stable strategies.One of them doesn't inherently "counter" the other. One is focused on dragging out the game into a lategame carry scenario, while the other is looking at an aggressive gank->push strategy that wants to end the game early. The success of either strategy is dependent on how its supported by the other 4 members of each team, both in terms of how well they play, and how well the picks support the general strategy. How good is Nasus' team at stalling and holding onto shit? How good is Pantheon's team at taking objectives? How strong is the initiation/counter-initiation involved? Pantheon can shit on Nasus all he wants, but if his team doesn't have the means to take objectives, then it's rough turning your lane advantage into a win before Nasus eventually gets to farm his shit. Likewise, Nasus can farm all he wants, but if his team can't stall towers/inhibs/Baron until he gets big, it's not going to accomplish anything.
That entire paragraph, however, boils down to basically whichever team plays better wins. Which is kind of a dumb argument in the whole panth v. nasus debate because that's kinda how you win a game of LoL regardless of champ select; whichever team plays better with their comp wins.
The problem I have with guitar's argument is that he's more or less saying that if Nasus has a better team he'll win, which is a stupid argument imo. When dealing with lane matchups it's kinda pointless to bring in the entire team into the equation because then almost every matchup is theoretically "winnable." It's important to take note of the jungler, but honestly, if in order to win or even equalize your lane you absolutely need to bring the jungler into the equation it's kind of indicative of a bad matchup don't you think?
On December 15 2011 14:50 gtrsrs wrote: Absolutely none of my posts were arrogant or stupid. I've raised valid points in a calm respectful way and you and your cronies are just yelling at me mocking me and bashing me for no reason. Just because you've never been to china doesn't mean it doesn't exist, gizbro. Likewise, just because you can beat nasus every time doesn't mean my suggestions are wrong. But please, keep raving. I neverthought of all the dunderheads that post here you would reach this level of craziness. Much respect lost bro
Yea, you pretty much called us retards. Maybe you weren't trying to be arrogant, but some of your posts sounded a bit lofty imho
i think its a completely fine paragraph. if both teams are able to win by playing better then the game is balanced enough, atleast with respect to these 2 champs. if you are saying this isnt true then the game is imbalanced crap. but if you agree then how to play the lane to win is a discussion to worth having.
On December 15 2011 17:20 Ryuu314 wrote: Fair enough. But if the jungler is babysitting Nasus's lane then Smash's point about the Panth's jungler having uncontested map control is fair game. If Nasus's jungler spends too much time up top then Panth's jungler is free to take buffs/dragons and the rest of Panth's team is free to push all day.
An early-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things early-game. A late-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things late-game. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone. But just saying that doesn't tell you anything about the interactions between those champs. If early-game champs having an advantage early on was enough to win games, then people would always play early-game dominators, and nobody would play late-game carries.
okay fair enough. But i just feel that you have to draw the distinction between a matchup that's so tilted in favor of one side, the opportunity cost in order for that champ's team to equalize the matchup isn't worth playing that matchup in the first place.
in other words, i don't want to put words into smash's mouth but what I got from his posts and what I personally feel, is that in order for Nasus's team to make that matchup bearable/winnable for Nasus the team has to make sacrifices to the point where it's simply just not worth it. I mean, sure, Nasus scales fucking hard and with enough babysitting he can reach that point, but his team is at such a huge disadvantage he probably won't get there. As opposed to say an Irelia pick vs. Panth; Irelia can beat or equalize the lane against Panth much earlier/easier so Irelia's team doesn't have to sacrifice nearly as much.
On December 15 2011 17:02 Ryuu314 wrote: Yea, you pretty much called us retards. Maybe you weren't trying to be arrogant, but some of your posts sounded a bit lofty imho
i actually like you ryuu, i wasn't referring to you it was mostly brees/twodowns/dnasty/jackdino/all the other people who respond to everything i say with "lol ur bad" that i was referring to but keep posting itt and find yourself on that list!
It's almost like lots of people repeatedly call you a bad poster. Maybe this is because you make bad posts. But you know, keep up the victim complex!
EDIT: On topic, I'm not going to pretend I'm good enough at this game to play it at the level that Smash does, but I think there's some confusion on what his actual point is.
On December 15 2011 17:20 Ryuu314 wrote: Fair enough. But if the jungler is babysitting Nasus's lane then Smash's point about the Panth's jungler having uncontested map control is fair game. If Nasus's jungler spends too much time up top then Panth's jungler is free to take buffs/dragons and the rest of Panth's team is free to push all day.
An early-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things early-game. A late-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things late-game. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone. But just saying that doesn't tell you anything about the interactions between those champs. If early-game champs having an advantage early on was enough to win games, then people would always play early-game dominators, and nobody would play late-game carries.
fine
look at the interactions between the two champs.
Pantheon has his 2 strongest abilities as low mana cost, low CD, AD Scaling nukes, one of which is a channel. He has a stun and semi-global presence via his ult. He's most effective @ levels 1-9 and tends to taper off after level 13. His Passive blocks auto attacks and is refreshed by his stun.
Nasus has an Attack Modifier that requires last hits to scale well. He has decent AoE creep clearing with spirit fire. He has a giant move/attack speed debuff with wither and a strong teamfighting ult steroid. He's a garbage character until level 11 and a ton of Q farm and needs to get into melee range to farm said Q. The only way he wins lane trades is via hitting Qs.
Alright, so, Pantheon bosses everyone up @ low levels, even those with strong level 1 skills. Spear Shot + Aegis Protection is too strong. So you can't fight him level 1 unless you have a deathwish, especially as nasus. You can't get last hits without fighting him because that's what Pantheon does. You're zoned, right off the bat. You don't catch up to the point where you can 1v1 Pantheon ever because you can never get the farm to hit your sweet spot because a great Pantheon won't let you get there. Nasus's best 1v1 skills are whither and siphoning strike. Pantheon's Aegis will fuck up siphoning strike, even if you do a regular attack to pop the proc, Pantheon can respond by stunning you before you get the Q off if he's any good at all, meaning you're just never going to land a Q while aegis is off CD. Whither is mana intensive and does proportionally little to Pantheon's damage output compared to most characters because it doesn't do anything to Spear Shot or HSS. So basically, Nasus's only hope is to power level Spirit Fire, get philo + glacial shroud and just use Spirit Fire to Farm and Whither to disengage unless he gets ganks. By the time you get to that point, you're staring down at a pantheon with bare minimum brutalizer + 2 dblades + several hundred gold in the bank (assuming even farm, which is only possible if your jungle puts himself behind to camp top to force Pantheon to be honest). This gameplan leaves you with a team with no map control on the bottom half of the map for the early section of the game in exchange for a nasus with poor Q farm and an underfarmed jungler... ok, super, how is this acceptable again?
Like, tell me a character that can't do at least that well if not better with a jungler camping for them. What makes nasus a good pick here? He can't get his early Q farm, he has a terrible skill set for 1v1ing Pantheon, if this is our strategy, why aren't we just picking Irelia and camping the lane. Irelia with wriggle's + chain vest is more resilient vs. pantheon and more threatening to him than a Nasus with Glacial + Philo and she scales almost as hard off the same farm.
What I'm saying is that the Nasus pick isn't what's worrying me as Pantheon, it's the fucking jungler camping my lane. If he's not, I will destroy Nasus. If that's not a bad matchup, I don't know what is and I might as well quit LoL because I don't understand the fundamental concepts of the game.
I dunno, it just feels to me that towerdiving before you even have boots seems like a pretty gimmicky way of winning lane. I mean as a jungler top is so fucking easy to gank and when someone even pushes a little bit without boots it just feels like a free kill even with flash if I have something like nasus slow. I guess you can countergank but I usually play like skarner or udyr or riven or generally people who can easily get away and generally take no damage in ganks+win against almost 2v2 early game because of retarded aoes/shields.
Like, I almost never gank bot early, like pre 6 because 2 people with flash+3 wards at level 1 + support to help him makes it too hard and risky. Mid is usually a waste of time pre 6 and after if it's an ungankable mid unless they overextend super hard so generally any agressive pushing top lane to me is just free kills or at least forces them to flash and back if you didn't buy any potions and started dblade. It's not even camping lane its just coming to gank when I feel the oppurtunity is there and I have my jungle cleared anyway, I'll lose some time because respawn is shorter now but they're still a small bit of down time.
Pantheon completely and utterly ruins Nasus' shit 1v1 and it's not even close. He's the hardest counter in the game to Nasus because his early dominance completely gimps Nasus, who requires reasonable sustained Q farming from the first creep wave onward.
And yes, if Nasus gets babysat, there's no hardcounter for a 1v2 lane. But forcing someone to babysit toplane is just giving dragon and ganks in the other two lanes, which pantheon can help with (atleast midlane if this is all going on top) with his ult.
As for the Nasus against pantheon lane, I actually feel like missing out on almost all of the Q's early levels isn't that big of a deal for Nasus. You have an huge cooldown on Q early levels and you only get 1 or 2 per wave. (at least if it gets pushed to tower which happens a LOT of nasus) You have like 1/3 of the cooldown after you get your glacial and level 9 and thats when you start really farming it at a good rate, also around the point where it's really hard to zone nasus because he just heals so much so even if he can't 1v1 you unless you can tower dive a nasus (with ultimate must be hard even for pantheon) you don't have an easy wave of denying him unless the wave pushes and you like hold it or something.
I also don't believe in everyone thinking you need 5000 stacks in Q to be effective. Nasus is pretty useful in teamfights after he gets ultimate. His whither with a lot of CDR has very high uptime and is very gimping and his base damage with ultimate % leeching isn't that bad for a tank. It's just he does crazy damage for a tank when he does get that Q farm. I mean obviously you can say malphite or whatever is far more useful than nasus with 0 stacks in Q because of the initiate, but after that Nasus has a better slow is more tanky and is still probably better at doing damage. Not to mention that I don't think Nasus won't be able to get some good stacks going once he has his low cooldown on Q.
Obviously if you ever kill Nasus a couple times early he's going to be useless for the midgame because he'll be so underleveled and have no items that he won't compare to a now fed and free farming pantheon but I feel like if Nasus just doesn't do anything stupid he won't be so far behind that he won't be able to be effective.
On December 16 2011 01:43 Slayer91 wrote: As for the Nasus against pantheon lane, I actually feel like missing out on almost all of the Q's early levels isn't that big of a deal for Nasus. You have an huge cooldown on Q early levels and you only get 1 or 2 per wave. (at least if it gets pushed to tower which happens a LOT of nasus) You have like 1/3 of the cooldown after you get your glacial and level 9 and thats when you start really farming it at a good rate, also around the point where it's really hard to zone nasus because he just heals so much so even if he can't 1v1 you unless you can tower dive a nasus (with ultimate must be hard even for pantheon) you don't have an easy wave of denying him unless the wave pushes and you like hold it or something.
I also don't believe in everyone thinking you need 5000 stacks in Q to be effective. Nasus is pretty useful in teamfights after he gets ultimate. His whither with a lot of CDR has very high uptime and is very gimping and his base damage with ultimate % leeching isn't that bad for a tank. It's just he does crazy damage for a tank when he does get that Q farm. I mean obviously you can say malphite or whatever is far more useful than nasus with 0 stacks in Q because of the initiate, but after that Nasus has a better slow is more tanky and is still probably better at doing damage. Not to mention that I don't think Nasus won't be able to get some good stacks going once he has his low cooldown on Q.
Obviously if you ever kill Nasus a couple times early he's going to be useless for the midgame because he'll be so underleveled and have no items that he won't compare to a now fed and free farming pantheon but I feel like if Nasus just doesn't do anything stupid he won't be so far behind that he won't be able to be effective.
Having gone on Nasus kicks from time to time, I find his late game absurdly overrated. I still don't see how you're supposed to do jack all against a ranged carry that can melt faces with a team that has CC.
but w/e that's neither here nor there, as far as vs. Pantheon is concerned, you can't safely farm and you can't 1v1 him. you wanna say you can just play safe and not die, fine, w/e, I'll give you that if it means we can move on and discuss the fact that you're going to get denied to the point where you're going to be less useful to your team than I am going to be to mine until you get 5 minutes straight of free farm. If you want to deny both of these, I'll just see you on the fields of justice, cause I've yet to encounter a nasus who has not gotten completely dumped on by my Pantheon.
I'm still mystified how any pantheon is winning a lane vs one of the tankier tops especially if nasus is opening cloth. How are you not completely buttfucked on mana by the time he's burned his pots?
On December 15 2011 02:00 Haemonculus wrote: I discovered a fun pantheon trick last night.
Did anyone else see that video that was posted on Reddit about how to get Garen's ult to fire like twice as far as normal? Basically if you attempt to cast your ult while spinning, and then issue *no* other commands until your spin ends, Garen would ult the target you clicked on even if it had moved way out of range as soon as he stopped spinning. This required some finesse, as you had to predict where your target would be because if you moved at all while spinning the trick wouldn't work.
Same principle applies to HSS and Q. If you smartcast a Q while you are casting HSS, even if your target moves wildly out of range while casting, as soon as HSS is done channeling, you will chuck that spear. I was laning Panth vs Kass mid, and generally stomping his face in mantheon style. I jumped on his face, auto, HSS, and smartcast a Q. As soon as the stun wore off kass riftwalked away. HSS finished, and I chucked a spear across the entire goddamn lane. Not even a threw it *while* he was riftwalking. He finished his rift, and then I threw the spear, and it just traveled like 4 times as far as normal and hit him under tower.
Pretty snazzy trick for those jerks that like to flash out of your combo!
teach me to smartcast pl0x D:
Just go to your Key Bindings and remap Smartcast Spell X to just be Q/W/E/R instead of Shift-Q/W/E/R. It's pretty damn useful for getting your combos off quickly, I smartcast most spells except ultimates and things like Morgana/Blitzcrank's Q. I also recommend smartcasting summoners like Ignite/Exhaust.
On December 16 2011 02:27 TL Blazeraid wrote: I'm still mystified how any pantheon is winning a lane vs one of the tankier tops especially if nasus is opening cloth. How are you not completely buttfucked on mana by the time he's burned his pots?
Can anyone direct me to a vod of this happening?
I explained dblade vs. cloth last page. If you're running out of mana, you're doing it wrong.
On December 16 2011 03:47 Alzadar wrote: So what opening do you recommend against Pantheon, if not Cloth+5?
it's character dependent. Cloth + 5 is your best bet most of the time tbh, but that doesn't mean that dblade isn't still stronger than it if played right.
I think Kennen with boots is a good pick vs. Pantheon.
On December 16 2011 03:47 Alzadar wrote: So what opening do you recommend against Pantheon, if not Cloth+5?
armor runes+cloth5 is your best bet. A good pantheon will still be able to dick you really hard the early levels, but with the right champ you should be okay and be able to at least equalize the lane eventually. Like I hate playing against Irelia as Panth because as soon as Irelia gets Wriggles I can't do jack to her and it becomes a farmfest, which is bad for Panth.
I taught my bf pantheon so now TL can terror all elos with manly spears of justice.
As for panth vs nasus I've never done that matchup personally but I agree it'd go a lot like what everyone's been saying. Panth will rofl him out of lane with usual spear chucking shenanigans, but obviously late game if nasus manages to get his 200 cs and gear he'll be as scary as usual.
I managed to maul Malphite enough that Xin was very often at my lane (turned it into a 1v2 several times, killed Xin when he dived) and Brand had to come and gank sometimes too. They took my tower while I was dead and one or two continued to come back every time I pushed to their tower (with wards) so I couldn't kill it but diverted them. It still went far into the lategame (66 minutes game) and I felt quite useless as Brand had the burst to 100-0 me (zerkers, GA, 2 BT, a DB, LW, scaling mr blues), and Xin's autos would straight up beat me because of aspd I think, so I basically ulted into the back of the teamfights and destroyed whoever was in range to queue W-E during the drop (usually Teemo or Xin), then I got bursted down by whoever was still alive.
Morg destroyed midtower first because of Brand often trying to gank me or bot, and Voli/Twitch barely went into top jungle (we were purple side) since bot had troubles early on. I got blamed for trying to burst people and getting myself killed often in teamfights, rather than sticking with the team, but ideally should I have pressed them to push like mad and win bot while Xin was forced to camp top? Then splitpushed or tried to flank people in teamfights to avoid the burst?
We won in the end (farmed Twitch too powerful + my E's output was sick with 400+ AD), but I really felt useless. I didn't know what to replace my last DB with, I felt like with 160 armor + 120 mr and only 2200 HP FM would have been good for survivability, but should I even have farmed a warmog? Another BT would have felt like overkill, plus I didn't get to auto much after E so the lifesteal was only really useful whenever I survived a teamfight.
Edit: don't get me wrong, I had a lot of fun with him, not regretting the IP in the least. I just got blamed so much I'm wondering if I played bad or if it's my team's fault for not capitalizing on my early game.
Hard to comment on playstyle from a written description, but I would never get zerks on panth. How often are you really landing consecutive auto attacks? Merc treads *every* game.
On December 15 2011 17:20 Ryuu314 wrote: Fair enough. But if the jungler is babysitting Nasus's lane then Smash's point about the Panth's jungler having uncontested map control is fair game. If Nasus's jungler spends too much time up top then Panth's jungler is free to take buffs/dragons and the rest of Panth's team is free to push all day.
An early-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things early-game. A late-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things late-game. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone. But just saying that doesn't tell you anything about the interactions between those champs. If early-game champs having an advantage early on was enough to win games, then people would always play early-game dominators, and nobody would play late-game carries.
fine
look at the interactions between the two champs.
Pantheon has his 2 strongest abilities as low mana cost, low CD, AD Scaling nukes, one of which is a channel. He has a stun and semi-global presence via his ult. He's most effective @ levels 1-9 and tends to taper off after level 13. His Passive blocks auto attacks and is refreshed by his stun.
Nasus has an Attack Modifier that requires last hits to scale well. He has decent AoE creep clearing with spirit fire. He has a giant move/attack speed debuff with wither and a strong teamfighting ult steroid. He's a garbage character until level 11 and a ton of Q farm and needs to get into melee range to farm said Q. The only way he wins lane trades is via hitting Qs.
Alright, so, Pantheon bosses everyone up @ low levels, even those with strong level 1 skills. Spear Shot + Aegis Protection is too strong. So you can't fight him level 1 unless you have a deathwish, especially as nasus. You can't get last hits without fighting him because that's what Pantheon does. You're zoned, right off the bat. You don't catch up to the point where you can 1v1 Pantheon ever because you can never get the farm to hit your sweet spot because a great Pantheon won't let you get there. Nasus's best 1v1 skills are whither and siphoning strike. Pantheon's Aegis will fuck up siphoning strike, even if you do a regular attack to pop the proc, Pantheon can respond by stunning you before you get the Q off if he's any good at all, meaning you're just never going to land a Q while aegis is off CD. Whither is mana intensive and does proportionally little to Pantheon's damage output compared to most characters because it doesn't do anything to Spear Shot or HSS. So basically, Nasus's only hope is to power level Spirit Fire, get philo + glacial shroud and just use Spirit Fire to Farm and Whither to disengage unless he gets ganks. By the time you get to that point, you're staring down at a pantheon with bare minimum brutalizer + 2 dblades + several hundred gold in the bank (assuming even farm, which is only possible if your jungle puts himself behind to camp top to force Pantheon to be honest). This gameplan leaves you with a team with no map control on the bottom half of the map for the early section of the game in exchange for a nasus with poor Q farm and an underfarmed jungler... ok, super, how is this acceptable again?
Like, tell me a character that can't do at least that well if not better with a jungler camping for them. What makes nasus a good pick here? He can't get his early Q farm, he has a terrible skill set for 1v1ing Pantheon, if this is our strategy, why aren't we just picking Irelia and camping the lane. Irelia with wriggle's + chain vest is more resilient vs. pantheon and more threatening to him than a Nasus with Glacial + Philo and she scales almost as hard off the same farm.
What I'm saying is that the Nasus pick isn't what's worrying me as Pantheon, it's the fucking jungler camping my lane. If he's not, I will destroy Nasus. If that's not a bad matchup, I don't know what is and I might as well quit LoL because I don't understand the fundamental concepts of the game.
unless im missing something, whats stopping nasus just farming under his turret? open cloth +5 and just q farm under a turret. if you cant get last hits with a 100 dmg ability then playing nasus isnt your problem anyway.
On December 15 2011 17:20 Ryuu314 wrote: Fair enough. But if the jungler is babysitting Nasus's lane then Smash's point about the Panth's jungler having uncontested map control is fair game. If Nasus's jungler spends too much time up top then Panth's jungler is free to take buffs/dragons and the rest of Panth's team is free to push all day.
An early-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things early-game. A late-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things late-game. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone. But just saying that doesn't tell you anything about the interactions between those champs. If early-game champs having an advantage early on was enough to win games, then people would always play early-game dominators, and nobody would play late-game carries.
fine
look at the interactions between the two champs.
Pantheon has his 2 strongest abilities as low mana cost, low CD, AD Scaling nukes, one of which is a channel. He has a stun and semi-global presence via his ult. He's most effective @ levels 1-9 and tends to taper off after level 13. His Passive blocks auto attacks and is refreshed by his stun.
Nasus has an Attack Modifier that requires last hits to scale well. He has decent AoE creep clearing with spirit fire. He has a giant move/attack speed debuff with wither and a strong teamfighting ult steroid. He's a garbage character until level 11 and a ton of Q farm and needs to get into melee range to farm said Q. The only way he wins lane trades is via hitting Qs.
Alright, so, Pantheon bosses everyone up @ low levels, even those with strong level 1 skills. Spear Shot + Aegis Protection is too strong. So you can't fight him level 1 unless you have a deathwish, especially as nasus. You can't get last hits without fighting him because that's what Pantheon does. You're zoned, right off the bat. You don't catch up to the point where you can 1v1 Pantheon ever because you can never get the farm to hit your sweet spot because a great Pantheon won't let you get there. Nasus's best 1v1 skills are whither and siphoning strike. Pantheon's Aegis will fuck up siphoning strike, even if you do a regular attack to pop the proc, Pantheon can respond by stunning you before you get the Q off if he's any good at all, meaning you're just never going to land a Q while aegis is off CD. Whither is mana intensive and does proportionally little to Pantheon's damage output compared to most characters because it doesn't do anything to Spear Shot or HSS. So basically, Nasus's only hope is to power level Spirit Fire, get philo + glacial shroud and just use Spirit Fire to Farm and Whither to disengage unless he gets ganks. By the time you get to that point, you're staring down at a pantheon with bare minimum brutalizer + 2 dblades + several hundred gold in the bank (assuming even farm, which is only possible if your jungle puts himself behind to camp top to force Pantheon to be honest). This gameplan leaves you with a team with no map control on the bottom half of the map for the early section of the game in exchange for a nasus with poor Q farm and an underfarmed jungler... ok, super, how is this acceptable again?
Like, tell me a character that can't do at least that well if not better with a jungler camping for them. What makes nasus a good pick here? He can't get his early Q farm, he has a terrible skill set for 1v1ing Pantheon, if this is our strategy, why aren't we just picking Irelia and camping the lane. Irelia with wriggle's + chain vest is more resilient vs. pantheon and more threatening to him than a Nasus with Glacial + Philo and she scales almost as hard off the same farm.
What I'm saying is that the Nasus pick isn't what's worrying me as Pantheon, it's the fucking jungler camping my lane. If he's not, I will destroy Nasus. If that's not a bad matchup, I don't know what is and I might as well quit LoL because I don't understand the fundamental concepts of the game.
unless im missing something, whats stopping nasus just farming under his turret? open cloth +5 and just q farm under a turret. if you cant get last hits with a 100 dmg ability then playing nasus isnt your problem anyway.
You're taking spear chucks to the face every few seconds. Take a few and you're in range for pantheon to burst you down even at tower.
Panth can reliably kill Nasus below half hp if all he has is cloth armor. HSS and Aegis are ridic strong for tower diving and +spears makes it really easy to harass someone under the tower.
I managed to maul Malphite enough that Xin was very often at my lane (turned it into a 1v2 several times, killed Xin when he dived) and Brand had to come and gank sometimes too. They took my tower while I was dead and one or two continued to come back every time I pushed to their tower (with wards) so I couldn't kill it but diverted them. It still went far into the lategame (66 minutes game) and I felt quite useless as Brand had the burst to 100-0 me (zerkers, GA, 2 BT, a DB, LW, scaling mr blues), and Xin's autos would straight up beat me because of aspd I think, so I basically ulted into the back of the teamfights and destroyed whoever was in range to queue W-E during the drop (usually Teemo or Xin), then I got bursted down by whoever was still alive.
Morg destroyed midtower first because of Brand often trying to gank me or bot, and Voli/Twitch barely went into top jungle (we were purple side) since bot had troubles early on. I got blamed for trying to burst people and getting myself killed often in teamfights, rather than sticking with the team, but ideally should I have pressed them to push like mad and win bot while Xin was forced to camp top? Then splitpushed or tried to flank people in teamfights to avoid the burst?
We won in the end (farmed Twitch too powerful + my E's output was sick with 400+ AD), but I really felt useless. I didn't know what to replace my last DB with, I felt like with 160 armor + 120 mr and only 2200 HP FM would have been good for survivability, but should I even have farmed a warmog? Another BT would have felt like overkill, plus I didn't get to auto much after E so the lifesteal was only really useful whenever I survived a teamfight.
Edit: don't get me wrong, I had a lot of fun with him, not regretting the IP in the least. I just got blamed so much I'm wondering if I played bad or if it's my team's fault for not capitalizing on my early game.
Your description shouts banshees to me. Should do the math whether Banshees or Warmogs gives you more for that last slot (kinda depends on how much gold you have left over obv), but to me it sounds as if Banshees was the way to go.
Apart from that, splitpushing (keep those wards up!) is what makes Panth lategame shine.
I managed to maul Malphite enough that Xin was very often at my lane (turned it into a 1v2 several times, killed Xin when he dived) and Brand had to come and gank sometimes too. They took my tower while I was dead and one or two continued to come back every time I pushed to their tower (with wards) so I couldn't kill it but diverted them. It still went far into the lategame (66 minutes game) and I felt quite useless as Brand had the burst to 100-0 me (zerkers, GA, 2 BT, a DB, LW, scaling mr blues), and Xin's autos would straight up beat me because of aspd I think, so I basically ulted into the back of the teamfights and destroyed whoever was in range to queue W-E during the drop (usually Teemo or Xin), then I got bursted down by whoever was still alive.
Morg destroyed midtower first because of Brand often trying to gank me or bot, and Voli/Twitch barely went into top jungle (we were purple side) since bot had troubles early on. I got blamed for trying to burst people and getting myself killed often in teamfights, rather than sticking with the team, but ideally should I have pressed them to push like mad and win bot while Xin was forced to camp top? Then splitpushed or tried to flank people in teamfights to avoid the burst?
We won in the end (farmed Twitch too powerful + my E's output was sick with 400+ AD), but I really felt useless. I didn't know what to replace my last DB with, I felt like with 160 armor + 120 mr and only 2200 HP FM would have been good for survivability, but should I even have farmed a warmog? Another BT would have felt like overkill, plus I didn't get to auto much after E so the lifesteal was only really useful whenever I survived a teamfight.
Edit: don't get me wrong, I had a lot of fun with him, not regretting the IP in the least. I just got blamed so much I'm wondering if I played bad or if it's my team's fault for not capitalizing on my early game.
The others can explain it better but I literally treat Panth as if he was a ranged spell caster late game. My reasoning is that late game his job is to land the full HSS, and if he's being focused/cc'd he can't really do his thing. He's basically similar to late game Miss Fortune. So the early game aggression becomes completely obsolete late game as I'm just waiting for the right opportunity to land HSS.
I think merc treads are the only boots you'd want because of the cc reduction. I used to get zerkers because my reasoning was why waste all that AD and lifesteal from BT stacking? But he dies so fast late game that cc reduction is just better imo.
On December 15 2011 17:20 Ryuu314 wrote: Fair enough. But if the jungler is babysitting Nasus's lane then Smash's point about the Panth's jungler having uncontested map control is fair game. If Nasus's jungler spends too much time up top then Panth's jungler is free to take buffs/dragons and the rest of Panth's team is free to push all day.
An early-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things early-game. A late-game champ makes it easier for his team to do things late-game. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone. But just saying that doesn't tell you anything about the interactions between those champs. If early-game champs having an advantage early on was enough to win games, then people would always play early-game dominators, and nobody would play late-game carries.
fine
look at the interactions between the two champs.
Pantheon has his 2 strongest abilities as low mana cost, low CD, AD Scaling nukes, one of which is a channel. He has a stun and semi-global presence via his ult. He's most effective @ levels 1-9 and tends to taper off after level 13. His Passive blocks auto attacks and is refreshed by his stun.
Nasus has an Attack Modifier that requires last hits to scale well. He has decent AoE creep clearing with spirit fire. He has a giant move/attack speed debuff with wither and a strong teamfighting ult steroid. He's a garbage character until level 11 and a ton of Q farm and needs to get into melee range to farm said Q. The only way he wins lane trades is via hitting Qs.
Alright, so, Pantheon bosses everyone up @ low levels, even those with strong level 1 skills. Spear Shot + Aegis Protection is too strong. So you can't fight him level 1 unless you have a deathwish, especially as nasus. You can't get last hits without fighting him because that's what Pantheon does. You're zoned, right off the bat. You don't catch up to the point where you can 1v1 Pantheon ever because you can never get the farm to hit your sweet spot because a great Pantheon won't let you get there. Nasus's best 1v1 skills are whither and siphoning strike. Pantheon's Aegis will fuck up siphoning strike, even if you do a regular attack to pop the proc, Pantheon can respond by stunning you before you get the Q off if he's any good at all, meaning you're just never going to land a Q while aegis is off CD. Whither is mana intensive and does proportionally little to Pantheon's damage output compared to most characters because it doesn't do anything to Spear Shot or HSS. So basically, Nasus's only hope is to power level Spirit Fire, get philo + glacial shroud and just use Spirit Fire to Farm and Whither to disengage unless he gets ganks. By the time you get to that point, you're staring down at a pantheon with bare minimum brutalizer + 2 dblades + several hundred gold in the bank (assuming even farm, which is only possible if your jungle puts himself behind to camp top to force Pantheon to be honest). This gameplan leaves you with a team with no map control on the bottom half of the map for the early section of the game in exchange for a nasus with poor Q farm and an underfarmed jungler... ok, super, how is this acceptable again?
Like, tell me a character that can't do at least that well if not better with a jungler camping for them. What makes nasus a good pick here? He can't get his early Q farm, he has a terrible skill set for 1v1ing Pantheon, if this is our strategy, why aren't we just picking Irelia and camping the lane. Irelia with wriggle's + chain vest is more resilient vs. pantheon and more threatening to him than a Nasus with Glacial + Philo and she scales almost as hard off the same farm.
What I'm saying is that the Nasus pick isn't what's worrying me as Pantheon, it's the fucking jungler camping my lane. If he's not, I will destroy Nasus. If that's not a bad matchup, I don't know what is and I might as well quit LoL because I don't understand the fundamental concepts of the game.
unless im missing something, whats stopping nasus just farming under his turret? open cloth +5 and just q farm under a turret. if you cant get last hits with a 100 dmg ability then playing nasus isnt your problem anyway.
you kill him under his turret. you're Pantheon for god's sake. I played the matchup today, tower dived him at level 4, went some stupid score and won in under 20 minutes. anecdotal, I know, but it's mindbogglingly easy for Pantheon to pressure Nasus under his turret without jungle support.
Regarding the whole Mercs vs. Zerkers discussion, you should also consider CDR boots. Zerkers #1 for split pushing speed, CDR #1 for teamfighting damage output, Mercs #1 defensive choice. I'd say I get Mercs like, 50% of the time, CDR 35% of the time, Zerkers like 15% of the time.
I routinely trash rivens with Pantheon, but they aren't maxing shield. I think if she maxes shield first she might beat him, but it's tough to say when every riven is just derp maxing stun and getting assraped by me. still need to play navitar a bit and figure it out. If she does max shield, I'm pretty sure Pantheon would need some mana regen in his spec, which might just be how that matchup naturally evolves, but I think Pantheon should still have an edge.
On December 21 2011 04:15 Mogwai wrote: Guide updated.
Thanks! I just bought Panth last night (Read my wife a list of champs, asked which one I should buy, she picked Panth because she liked his name) and I was just coming here to ask how you are building him these days.
I haven't had this much fun with a new champ since I bought Jax.
I looked funny at him awhile ago, heard that he's so much fun quite frequently, still hesitant. Never regretted the buy once since I got him. <3 So much fun, and so much bullshit you can pull off with his ult.
I tend to get instantly focused (and bursted down since he's so squishy) when I do that, but earlier in the game there's that "Oh, no, you want to dive my mid... ! Well, no, you don't, either you run back as fast as you can, or I stand between your turret and you, with my turret and ally on the other side". His passive even allow to ult in front of the tower to force an opponent to take another path and be easier to pick off. You need to be winning your lane so it doesn't get too pushed when you ult, but it feels so great pseudo-counterganking like that.
Panth v Nasus goes a bit like this: Nasus opens cloth 5. Nasus drinks lots of potions, uses Q on creeps. Backs for a pink ward + items around 900 gold in. Panth gets repeatedly ganked at Nasus's tower. The end. Panth spears run out if he tries to pressure significantly during levels 1-2, so nasus shouldn't have a problem cashwise. If panth does put excessive pressure during those levels, even a failed jungle gank can give him enough face time with creeps to net him an easy 3-4 spears worth of damage in lifesteal.
On December 20 2011 04:05 Mogwai wrote: I routinely trash rivens with Pantheon, but they aren't maxing shield. I think if she maxes shield first she might beat him, but it's tough to say when every riven is just derp maxing stun and getting assraped by me. still need to play navitar a bit and figure it out. If she does max shield, I'm pretty sure Pantheon would need some mana regen in his spec, which might just be how that matchup naturally evolves, but I think Pantheon should still have an edge.
Shield blocks spear entirely + extra if you run a cloth opening, but Spear has half the cooldown of shield. You still can't do very much to panth sitting in the creeps even if you chump his spear because he has block up when you go in. But you don't really need to; your goal is to dash in during a spear, last hit as much as possible while using q to keep you out of auto range, then get out around 2 seconds after the second spear he tosses. Panth, however, if he tries to harrass you, will push his lane, and most jungles can eviscerate an overextended panth with a riven around.
That's my experience at least; jungle chain free kills on panth as long as riven pink wards the bush.
Short version: if you can chump spears, you will be okay.
On December 21 2011 11:20 L wrote: Panth v Nasus goes a bit like this: Nasus opens cloth 5. Nasus drinks lots of potions, uses Q on creeps. Backs for a pink ward + items around 900 gold in. Panth gets repeatedly ganked at Nasus's tower. The end. Panth spears run out if he tries to pressure significantly during levels 1-2, so nasus shouldn't have a problem cashwise. If panth does put excessive pressure during those levels, even a failed jungle gank can give him enough face time with creeps to net him an easy 3-4 spears worth of damage in lifesteal.
On December 20 2011 04:05 Mogwai wrote: I routinely trash rivens with Pantheon, but they aren't maxing shield. I think if she maxes shield first she might beat him, but it's tough to say when every riven is just derp maxing stun and getting assraped by me. still need to play navitar a bit and figure it out. If she does max shield, I'm pretty sure Pantheon would need some mana regen in his spec, which might just be how that matchup naturally evolves, but I think Pantheon should still have an edge.
Shield blocks spear entirely + extra if you run a cloth opening, but Spear has half the cooldown of shield. You still can't do very much to panth sitting in the creeps even if you chump his spear because he has block up when you go in. But you don't really need to; your goal is to dash in during a spear, last hit as much as possible while using q to keep you out of auto range, then get out around 2 seconds after the second spear he tosses. Panth, however, if he tries to harrass you, will push his lane, and most jungles can eviscerate an overextended panth with a riven around.
That's my experience at least; jungle chain free kills on panth as long as riven pink wards the bush.
Short version: if you can chump spears, you will be okay.
ok, well, I've explained how Panth vs. Nasus goes in my experience. I daresay I've had more experience and more relevant experience. hate to bring this to appeal to authority, but put up or shut up. Show me that you can play Nasus vs. Pantheon and not be completely nuetered without your jungler and I'll believe the matchup isn't shit. If the jungler is necessary, then cool, that's a disadvantage. If my jungle just counter ganks, you're fucked, end of story, otherwise my jungler gets to wreak havoc while yours babysits your worthless ass and prays to god that your team is doing well enough elsewhere to force an endgame where nasus is useful.
Riven, w/e, you're bringing nothing new to the table. Your shield won't absorb more than a spear cloth vs. dblade and later you have to use your shield defensively and then get out between spear coming off cd and your shield coming off cd. I'm still not convinced she can hang with panth
For Pantheon vs. Nasus I see no possible way Nasus can survive this lane unless he runs full defensive tree and armor yellows/quints. Ultimately Pantheon with a doran blade opening will run Nasus through pots faster than Pantheon loses mana. I really don't see how this lane could even go remotely well for Nasus. His only hope would be to max spirit fire and farm with that since sitting around in lane for extended periods of time will get him crushed in a 1v1 scenario. Of course his jungler will probably come and help him, but that's not what this discussion is about imo. This discussion is about a 1v1 matchup with no intervention.
As for Riven, I'm pretty sure Pantheon can beat her just fine. Recently I played a game (ranked, at 2.1k) where I was up against their first pick riven. I got lvl 2 ganked before i could hit 2 and died. I promptly came back to lane and killed Riven twice and then she couldn't touch me. Again maybe this riven was just garbage, but I'm pretty confident Pantheon wins this match-up too. I started doran blade opening with full armor penetration reds/quints, offensive masteries ofc (21 - 0 - 9).
On December 21 2011 15:13 LoCicero wrote: I'll add my 2 cents.
For Pantheon vs. Nasus I see no possible way Nasus can survive this lane unless he runs full defensive tree and armor yellows/quints. Ultimately Pantheon with a doran blade opening will run Nasus through pots faster than Pantheon loses mana. I really don't see how this lane could even go remotely well for Nasus. His only hope would be to max spirit fire and farm with that since sitting around in lane for extended periods of time will get him crushed in a 1v1 scenario. Of course his jungler will probably come and help him, but that's not what this discussion is about imo. This discussion is about a 1v1 matchup with no intervention.
As for Riven, I'm pretty sure Pantheon can beat her just fine. Recently I played a game (ranked, at 2.1k) where I was up against their first pick riven. I got lvl 2 ganked before i could hit 2 and died. I promptly came back to lane and killed Riven twice and then she couldn't touch me. Again maybe this riven was just garbage, but I'm pretty confident Pantheon wins this match-up too. I started doran blade opening with full armor penetration reds/quints, offensive masteries ofc (21 - 0 - 9).
I've been toying with the idea of going back to full ArPen. Haven't run the numbers in such a way that I'm convinced it's better yet, but it always comes out close. I'm glad to see you're seeing the matchups the same way I have Loci. I was beginning to think that maybe just every 1900 Riven sucks vs. Panth cause I crush them every time.
On December 21 2011 16:27 freelander wrote: I love how Pantheon is like the most discussed champion on TL
while noone plays him anywhere l0l
except me and other TLers
You have to take into account that people tend not to play offbeat champions in ranked because it leads to trolling. I think champs like Mundo, karma, and shen are legitimately good if they get a lane they can win (which is 95% of lanes) and lots of xp and farm in a solo lane but I never play them in ranked just because I'd get trolled unless I played one of them so much that I'm known for playing that champ. (like Kotlettdrakes katarina is atm in EU west)
On December 21 2011 15:13 LoCicero wrote: I'll add my 2 cents.
For Pantheon vs. Nasus I see no possible way Nasus can survive this lane unless he runs full defensive tree and armor yellows/quints. Ultimately Pantheon with a doran blade opening will run Nasus through pots faster than Pantheon loses mana. I really don't see how this lane could even go remotely well for Nasus. His only hope would be to max spirit fire and farm with that since sitting around in lane for extended periods of time will get him crushed in a 1v1 scenario. Of course his jungler will probably come and help him, but that's not what this discussion is about imo. This discussion is about a 1v1 matchup with no intervention.
As for Riven, I'm pretty sure Pantheon can beat her just fine. Recently I played a game (ranked, at 2.1k) where I was up against their first pick riven. I got lvl 2 ganked before i could hit 2 and died. I promptly came back to lane and killed Riven twice and then she couldn't touch me. Again maybe this riven was just garbage, but I'm pretty confident Pantheon wins this match-up too. I started doran blade opening with full armor penetration reds/quints, offensive masteries ofc (21 - 0 - 9).
I've been toying with the idea of going back to full ArPen. Haven't run the numbers in such a way that I'm convinced it's better yet, but it always comes out close. I'm glad to see you're seeing the matchups the same way I have Loci. I was beginning to think that maybe just every 1900 Riven sucks vs. Panth cause I crush them every time.
What runes do you usually run?
For top lane, (usually vs bruisers), I run armorpen reds/quints, armor yellows, scaling MR blues, (how many top lanes actually deal magic damage early game?) I open d-blade like 90% of the time in top lane.
For mid lane, (usually vs casters), I run armor pen reds, flat AD quints, flat mana-regen yellows, and flat MR blues. I open boots 90% of the time in mid lane.
Does that sound optimal or should I switch it around some?
I just started playing LoL since exams ended and this is the only champion i have purchased. Hes so much fun to play. Maybe its because I am new but i seem to always do better when I get boots and pots versus dblade. Should i wait till i have a full set of runes/masteries to try dblade again? Or am I only failing because I'm bad.
According to Infinite who I trust with mathcraft, spear chucking at level 1 AD quints are better than apen quints assuming Apen reds, standard 21/0/9. The difference was 2% or so you barely lose anything by switching them.
I think it was with armor < 40 targets that ad reds and quints were better than ad quints/apen reds with spear chucking.
On December 21 2011 23:53 Wala.Revolution wrote: According to Infinite who I trust with mathcraft, spear chucking at level 1 AD quints are better than apen quints assuming Apen reds, standard 21/0/9. The difference was 2% or so you barely lose anything by switching them.
I think it was with armor < 40 targets that ad reds and quints were better than ad quints/apen reds with spear chucking.
This is probably true, but top lane champs are very likely to build wriggles, (at least trynd/riven do, and they're my top picks to counter with panth).
Full arpen runes and a bruta gives you 41 flat armor pen. Overkill for mid lane, but still not lowering most top champ's armor to 0. But giving them 20 armor instead of 60 is a really nice boost in damage imo.
I've been testing the throwback +19 ad rune page. It seems to work reasonably well against most champions.. especially the melee attrition types who usually sustain against average damage output. Once you get a lead in HP and drop a ward you can zone starting at level 3. He's just soooo weak to Udyr. But who isn't?
On December 22 2011 01:06 Zanzabar Haberdasher wrote: I've been testing the throwback +19 ad rune page. It seems to work reasonably well against most champions.. especially the melee attrition types who usually sustain against average damage output. Once you get a lead in HP and drop a ward you can zone starting at level 3. He's just soooo weak to Udyr. But who isn't?
panth should crush udyr, one of the few who do o.O
edit: litmus test: if it's melee, it probably loses to pantheon. due to passive and sheer dmg output, there are practically no champions that can just fight toe to toe without kiting him in the early game.
Can't Udyr just bear-stun you if you feign to want to trade (he doesn't care about your passive if he just wants the stun) then turtle-shield the spear you'll hurl at him while he flees? Well I guess he'd need at least level 2 for this so he'll eat some harass, and an Aegis-HSS combo is fast enough for him to eat most of them before he can stun you back, but you'd run oom before him so he can spam shield.
I meant top lane + Udyr jungle. If he camps you around the time you would get a massive advantage (3-5), there's nothing you can do. To commit would mean death.
Then I guess it's a huge win because you forced the enemy jungler (and one of the fastest at that) to camp your lane, while yours is supposedly free to go where he pleases, counterjungle and assist other lanes unhinged. I think that's what has been my biggest grief with Pantheon: you can easily force 1v2 if you dominate your opponent, or threaten to do so, but ultimately it's up to your team to take advantage of that. You aren't Nasus, Riven, Irelia or whatever, where surviving's good enough as long as you can get some farm and you'll just hit your strongest a bit later than usual, they need to capitalize early and I haven't seen a lot do that. I guess that's because he's not so played. :/
.......eh, if their jungle udyr camps you for 3 entire full levels......their team like, just lost the entire game with an underleveled jungle and 0 ganks while your jungle just kills everything and takes all the buffs + dragon. >__>
On December 22 2011 02:11 Zanzabar Haberdasher wrote: I meant top lane + Udyr jungle. If he camps you around the time you would get a massive advantage (3-5), there's nothing you can do. To commit would mean death.
uh...any jungler camping top lane would mean death for any top lane champ who overcommits, regardless of matchup, so i dont get why specifically udyr to specifically panth. You're basically saying that 2 champions will typically beat pantheon in an early game fight, which makes perfect sense, but doesn't really contribute any new ideas. There are also ways of dealing with (basically) 2v1's top which include counterganks and simply destroying the rest of the map with a 4v3 advantage that aren't really in the scope of discussion. I mean you could easily say that you can beat panth top by just being a better player than him, but that doesn't really fit in the scope of the discussion either.
\rant i guess i'm just getting tired of this whole 'jungler counters top lane' deal
edit: tbh, i'm not even that certain he's terribly susceptible to ganks (meaning he's a sitting duck), since there are some really cute things u can do with aegis stun + flash. so i guess he's more susceptible when aegis and flash are on cd, but then trynd is when his spin is on cd too, and fizz, generally regarded as a pretty slippery fucker is significantly more susceptible to ganks when trickster is on cd, vlad pool, etc etc.
Well, I get the feeling that panth becomes really weak after level 6 and relies on punishing their lane opponent before he gets his first big buy, if you die once early you'll be useless for the rest of the game. Also jungler ganks are at their strongest at top lane before the first buy because there's no wards and melees are already really easy to gank. Compare it to mid which is shorter with a ranged champion playing passively or bot with a support and wards. Of course, that's just my opinion I'm not a huge pantheon player so don't take my opinion with too much weight.
Udyr can easily gank you when you're level 3 without losing anything, and gank again at level 5 or so again losing little to nothing. Udyr is incredibly weak ganking mid and bot anyway. Coming top when you clear jungle and camping by literally sitting in the brush are different things. When you play top and you get ganked and flash you have to be careful because some assholes will stay in that brush then then other guys will have gone to clear their jungle and will be back just when you're starting to feel safe.
I don't think udyr is a relevant champion to name but I get it works since he clears fastest and ganks strong if you don't have flash you're almost guaranteed to die since everyone starts boots on udyr now as well.
On December 22 2011 03:46 Slayer91 wrote: Well, I get the feeling that panth becomes really weak after level 6 and relies on punishing their lane opponent before he gets his first big buy, if you die once early you'll be useless for the rest of the game. Also jungler ganks are at their strongest at top lane before the first buy because there's no wards and melees are already really easy to gank. Compare it to mid which is shorter with a ranged champion playing passively or bot with a support and wards. Of course, that's just my opinion I'm not a huge pantheon player so don't take my opinion with too much weight.
Udyr can easily gank you when you're level 3 without losing anything, and gank again at level 5 or so again losing little to nothing. Udyr is incredibly weak ganking mid and bot anyway. Coming top when you clear jungle and camping by literally sitting in the brush are different things. When you play top and you get ganked and flash you have to be careful because some assholes will stay in that brush then then other guys will have gone to clear their jungle and will be back just when you're starting to feel safe.
I don't think udyr is a relevant champion to name but I get it works since he clears fastest and ganks strong if you don't have flash you're almost guaranteed to die since everyone starts boots on udyr now as well.
i'm not refuting that an udyr who ganks top has a decent chance of killing pantheon, i just don't see how it contributes to anything at all, because that applies to nearly any jungler to nearly any solo top
Simply because most bruiser tops have very little aggressive resources early and benefit from playing passive until levels 6/7 and usually have at least boots + wriggles or razors and a ward which lets them play agressive without loldying.
Udyr? Never plays agressive early Irelia? Waits till level 7 at least Warwick? Q does nothing for half your mana until like level 7 as well. Renek? Has basically 3 flashes to get away and is very hard to kill after level 6.
Trynd, GP, I guess rumble, and wukong are the guys who play agressive early. Trynd has spin and later ulti, GP has oranges and Rumble needs revolver to really start owning people and I dunno about wukong.
So your typical bruiser simply sits and farms top and then back and buy and ward their lane before they even think of laning past the half way mark, unless lane happens to push. Meanwhile pantheon is trying hard as hell to kill you before you buy so he can be more effective than you later on and that's the kind of play easy to punish. You can kinda do the same thing with rumbles and gps that play agressive early, though.
Although I probably underestimate Aegis stun+flash for getting away from a dicey situation. But if you don't have a ward and your laner baits him to stun because you do something stupid like get a ranged cs then you could be screwed even with flash.
Too many people seem to think that it's easy to "sit back and farm against pantheon".
Have you even laned against him? o.O
He'll kill you at lvl1 if given the chance, and he'll do it again at lvl2. Against pantheon, 'sitting back" and "farming" are pretty mutually exclusive without massive intervention from your jungler.
What about setting up a countergank when the inevitable jungle pressure comes? Panth + whoever your jungler is should be able to wreck a 2v2, right?
(Warning: Requires knowing where the hell the enemy jungler is, or just having your jungler follow you in to an early level 1 or level 3 2v1 and trying to catch the opponent extra hard and hoping their jungler doesn't show up in a way that dicks you over.)
On December 22 2011 04:03 Slayer91 wrote: Simply because most bruiser tops have very little aggressive resources early and benefit from playing passive until levels 6/7 and usually have at least boots + wriggles or razors and a ward which lets them play agressive without loldying.
Udyr? Never plays agressive early Irelia? Waits till level 7 at least Warwick? Q does nothing for half your mana until like level 7 as well. Renek? Has basically 3 flashes to get away and is very hard to kill after level 6.
Trynd, GP, I guess rumble, and wukong are the guys who play agressive early. Trynd has spin and later ulti, GP has oranges and Rumble needs revolver to really start owning people and I dunno about wukong.
So your typical bruiser simply sits and farms top and then back and buy and ward their lane before they even think of laning past the half way mark, unless lane happens to push. Meanwhile pantheon is trying hard as hell to kill you before you buy so he can be more effective than you later on and that's the kind of play easy to punish. You can kinda do the same thing with rumbles and gps that play agressive early, though.
Although I probably underestimate Aegis stun+flash for getting away from a dicey situation. But if you don't have a ward and your laner baits him to stun because you do something stupid like get a ranged cs then you could be screwed even with flash.
I usually agree with you Slayer, but here it just sounds like you have never played vs. a Pantheon who knows what the hell they're doing.
On December 22 2011 04:33 sylverfyre wrote: What about setting up a countergank when the inevitable jungle pressure comes? Panth + whoever your jungler is should be able to wreck a 2v2, right?
(Warning: Requires knowing where the hell the enemy jungler is, or just having your jungler follow you in to an early level 1 or level 3 2v1 and trying to catch the opponent extra hard and hoping their jungler doesn't show up in a way that dicks you over.)
Pick up a kill or 2 before jungler comes, when jungler comes pick up a double kill:p
On December 23 2011 03:22 SHr3DD3r wrote: EU has trash Panths
Eu has pants that open cloth5 and go wriggles into atmogs lol.
today i had the chance to try out pantheon top lane i started with doran blade and totally destroyed lee sin (he had exhaust/flash w/ cloth armor opening)
thanks for the tips before you explained it, doran blade opening seemed so bad to me
On December 22 2011 04:03 Slayer91 wrote: Simply because most bruiser tops have very little aggressive resources early and benefit from playing passive until levels 6/7 and usually have at least boots + wriggles or razors and a ward which lets them play agressive without loldying.
Udyr? Never plays agressive early Irelia? Waits till level 7 at least Warwick? Q does nothing for half your mana until like level 7 as well. Renek? Has basically 3 flashes to get away and is very hard to kill after level 6.
Trynd, GP, I guess rumble, and wukong are the guys who play agressive early. Trynd has spin and later ulti, GP has oranges and Rumble needs revolver to really start owning people and I dunno about wukong.
So your typical bruiser simply sits and farms top and then back and buy and ward their lane before they even think of laning past the half way mark, unless lane happens to push. Meanwhile pantheon is trying hard as hell to kill you before you buy so he can be more effective than you later on and that's the kind of play easy to punish. You can kinda do the same thing with rumbles and gps that play agressive early, though.
Although I probably underestimate Aegis stun+flash for getting away from a dicey situation. But if you don't have a ward and your laner baits him to stun because you do something stupid like get a ranged cs then you could be screwed even with flash.
I usually agree with you Slayer, but here it just sounds like you have never played vs. a Pantheon who knows what the hell they're doing.
This is exactly the spot where I'd love some advice.
My recent games as Panth went along these lines: Riven vs Panth top (me right side). I smack her face in lvl 1, she decides to trade with minion aggro, I'm around 90%, she's around 40% and starts to eat her first pot. I walk up to her to w+spear her, a wild GP appears from my tribrush. My shit is on cd, flash isn't enough, I loldie.
Panth vs Udyr top (me left side). I smack his face in lvl 1 because he randomly decided to walk up from his brush to me and hit me in the middle of my wave (!?). He walks back and eats pots. When I ding lvl 3 he is still 2 and the wave is almost at his tower. At 3:30 a wild Trundle appears to smack my head in. (I flash to get away.) Udyr pushes the wave back a little bit so I decide to stay in lane, smack him to 20% and the trundle comes around like 30s later to smack my head in again. No flash, I loldie.
How do you deal with that? Do you read the enemy lane well enough to not get ganked like this? Do you walk in patterns to allow you seeing more of the river? I had multiple games where I got my support to ward at lvl 1 and then this is NO problem at all. Ever. However, in solo Q where you can't rely on that or perfect CVs - just, how do you deal with being in their face and not getting ganked at the same time?
On December 22 2011 04:03 Slayer91 wrote: Simply because most bruiser tops have very little aggressive resources early and benefit from playing passive until levels 6/7 and usually have at least boots + wriggles or razors and a ward which lets them play agressive without loldying.
Udyr? Never plays agressive early Irelia? Waits till level 7 at least Warwick? Q does nothing for half your mana until like level 7 as well. Renek? Has basically 3 flashes to get away and is very hard to kill after level 6.
Trynd, GP, I guess rumble, and wukong are the guys who play agressive early. Trynd has spin and later ulti, GP has oranges and Rumble needs revolver to really start owning people and I dunno about wukong.
So your typical bruiser simply sits and farms top and then back and buy and ward their lane before they even think of laning past the half way mark, unless lane happens to push. Meanwhile pantheon is trying hard as hell to kill you before you buy so he can be more effective than you later on and that's the kind of play easy to punish. You can kinda do the same thing with rumbles and gps that play agressive early, though.
Although I probably underestimate Aegis stun+flash for getting away from a dicey situation. But if you don't have a ward and your laner baits him to stun because you do something stupid like get a ranged cs then you could be screwed even with flash.
I usually agree with you Slayer, but here it just sounds like you have never played vs. a Pantheon who knows what the hell they're doing.
This is definitely true and as I said my opinion doesn't hold much weight I'm just adding my 2 cents about why I think junglers hurt pantheon a little bit more than they hurt other bruisers.
On December 21 2011 11:20 L wrote: Panth v Nasus goes a bit like this: Nasus opens cloth 5. Nasus drinks lots of potions, uses Q on creeps. Backs for a pink ward + items around 900 gold in. Panth gets repeatedly ganked at Nasus's tower. The end. Panth spears run out if he tries to pressure significantly during levels 1-2, so nasus shouldn't have a problem cashwise. If panth does put excessive pressure during those levels, even a failed jungle gank can give him enough face time with creeps to net him an easy 3-4 spears worth of damage in lifesteal.
On December 20 2011 04:05 Mogwai wrote: I routinely trash rivens with Pantheon, but they aren't maxing shield. I think if she maxes shield first she might beat him, but it's tough to say when every riven is just derp maxing stun and getting assraped by me. still need to play navitar a bit and figure it out. If she does max shield, I'm pretty sure Pantheon would need some mana regen in his spec, which might just be how that matchup naturally evolves, but I think Pantheon should still have an edge.
Shield blocks spear entirely + extra if you run a cloth opening, but Spear has half the cooldown of shield. You still can't do very much to panth sitting in the creeps even if you chump his spear because he has block up when you go in. But you don't really need to; your goal is to dash in during a spear, last hit as much as possible while using q to keep you out of auto range, then get out around 2 seconds after the second spear he tosses. Panth, however, if he tries to harrass you, will push his lane, and most jungles can eviscerate an overextended panth with a riven around.
That's my experience at least; jungle chain free kills on panth as long as riven pink wards the bush.
Short version: if you can chump spears, you will be okay.
ok, well, I've explained how Panth vs. Nasus goes in my experience. I daresay I've had more experience and more relevant experience. hate to bring this to appeal to authority, but put up or shut up. Show me that you can play Nasus vs. Pantheon and not be completely nuetered without your jungler and I'll believe the matchup isn't shit. If the jungler is necessary, then cool, that's a disadvantage. If my jungle just counter ganks, you're fucked, end of story, otherwise my jungler gets to wreak havoc while yours babysits your worthless ass and prays to god that your team is doing well enough elsewhere to force an endgame where nasus is useful.
Riven, w/e, you're bringing nothing new to the table. Your shield won't absorb more than a spear cloth vs. dblade and later you have to use your shield defensively and then get out between spear coming off cd and your shield coming off cd. I'm still not convinced she can hang with panth
I play nasus v pantheon quite frequently. Most comps that put nasus top put him top with the intention of pairing him with a specific set of junglers because nasus has a lot of mediocre matchups, but he is one of the best scaling heros in the game bar none.
Teams that plunk nasus top and aren't putting him because their team was thrown together haphazardly are going to be baiting aegis and not throwing spirit fire down in order to let the lane drift towards nasus's tower, where nasus can farm just fine given the AA reset on q and his relatively solid damage + good animation. Add wither + a huge chunk of armor reduction to ganks and you have very, very strong reasons to throw your jungle top asap. Additionally, even if panth doesn't die to a gank, the facetime nasus gets with creeps as a result of the threat created by the jungler in the area is often enough for him to heal a huge chunk of health.Its also pretty common to have nasus run to golems to heal up if his lane isn't doing well, especially now that the gold and xp value of the smaller doubles golem is often not important.
Nasus is an investment for the lategame. Your jungle should be playing with that in mind. Your jungle ganking top twice doesn't magically mean you've missed five dragons and every other lane is now losing, either.
As for riven, that's pretty much what I said. You shield in AS spear happens, which pretty much obliterates 80% of your shield, which means panth has free autos on you and you're forced to Q out. Basically you end up trading w for 2 panth autos, hopefully 1 if you can time your w to get a cs. If you run him down on mana; tits. You win. If he times his spear so that your w would push the lane and not get cs, well dick, you lose. You can't shield prior to spear because panth runs faster than you do and shield does not last long enough to allow you to trade with panth or cs then get away without an unshielded spear coming at you.
On December 22 2011 04:03 Slayer91 wrote: Simply because most bruiser tops have very little aggressive resources early and benefit from playing passive until levels 6/7 and usually have at least boots + wriggles or razors and a ward which lets them play agressive without loldying.
Udyr? Never plays agressive early Irelia? Waits till level 7 at least Warwick? Q does nothing for half your mana until like level 7 as well. Renek? Has basically 3 flashes to get away and is very hard to kill after level 6.
Trynd, GP, I guess rumble, and wukong are the guys who play agressive early. Trynd has spin and later ulti, GP has oranges and Rumble needs revolver to really start owning people and I dunno about wukong.
So your typical bruiser simply sits and farms top and then back and buy and ward their lane before they even think of laning past the half way mark, unless lane happens to push. Meanwhile pantheon is trying hard as hell to kill you before you buy so he can be more effective than you later on and that's the kind of play easy to punish. You can kinda do the same thing with rumbles and gps that play agressive early, though.
Although I probably underestimate Aegis stun+flash for getting away from a dicey situation. But if you don't have a ward and your laner baits him to stun because you do something stupid like get a ranged cs then you could be screwed even with flash.
I usually agree with you Slayer, but here it just sounds like you have never played vs. a Pantheon who knows what the hell they're doing.
This is exactly the spot where I'd love some advice.
My recent games as Panth went along these lines: Riven vs Panth top (me right side). I smack her face in lvl 1, she decides to trade with minion aggro, I'm around 90%, she's around 40% and starts to eat her first pot. I walk up to her to w+spear her, a wild GP appears from my tribrush. My shit is on cd, flash isn't enough, I loldie.
Panth vs Udyr top (me left side). I smack his face in lvl 1 because he randomly decided to walk up from his brush to me and hit me in the middle of my wave (!?). He walks back and eats pots. When I ding lvl 3 he is still 2 and the wave is almost at his tower. At 3:30 a wild Trundle appears to smack my head in. (I flash to get away.) Udyr pushes the wave back a little bit so I decide to stay in lane, smack him to 20% and the trundle comes around like 30s later to smack my head in again. No flash, I loldie.
How do you deal with that? Do you read the enemy lane well enough to not get ganked like this? Do you walk in patterns to allow you seeing more of the river? I had multiple games where I got my support to ward at lvl 1 and then this is NO problem at all. Ever. However, in solo Q where you can't rely on that or perfect CVs - just, how do you deal with being in their face and not getting ganked at the same time?
The problem is, panth is a pretty easy gank because he has no escapes and a lot of junglers are assholes and just start blue and camp top, regardless of if you're playing pant or not. Wondering about this myself aswell when you're playing top regardless of champ, how to deal with early jungle pressure, esp when they keep camping for a bit.
On December 23 2011 19:08 OutlaW- wrote: Can someone tell me who counters panth? :s
Yorick and Malphite are pretty rough for him, I think.
Yorrick tends to not bother me, but Malphite sucks and Rumble is a real sonofabitch if he counter specs you (which he can afford to do because he still does 23819023801928390123 DPS even with a 40 Armor page and cloth opening). Kennen is also a problem.
Yah, skarner is one hero that's been able to beat me in lane without jungle help. I HATE that scorpion. Always shield never die always hurt you magically even with no items T_T
On December 24 2011 01:38 Mogwai wrote: never had to play it, so I dunno. him being a manaless and CDless champion though... he's probably pretty tough!
Skarner uses mana? Unless you're referring to low mana costs.. :>
Pantheon is pretty much the hardest counter to GP, in my experience. Spears do a ton of damage, his passive blocks Parrrley, and he wins sustained trades too.
On December 26 2011 05:14 Bevan wrote: Pantheon is pretty much the hardest counter to GP, in my experience. Spears do a ton of damage, his passive blocks Parrrley, and he wins sustained trades too.
Yep Gp vs Pantheon is pretty much auto lose.
Also I played jungle Pantheon recently and rolled faces. His ganks are really really strong.
Going into normals for my daily victory, against Akali+Sion top (they had no jungler). I obviously die a horrible death at the first mistake, instruct Rammus never to gank top as it was a dead lane from load screen onwards and they warded it after their first back—and my powerlessness in the lategame doesn't justify the effort to give me some farm. He tries anyway, forces me to commit, give a double kill (and double buff) to Akali (who survived with 41 HP, and Sion ~30 despite ignite. QQ). Well we can't do much more and soon my tower is destroyed and the roamers kill more people and push it into a 20 minutes surrender. Taric rages at me despite the facts (unholdable lane, even with ganks).
Shrug it off, queue up again, get another Akali top... and their jungler LS calling me a noob and predicting how easy a victory my feeding will give them. "Sup Taric." Trade Qs with Akali, have LS come and gank me when it's obvious she can't handle a level 1 fight with Panth oh-so-well. When I realize I'm going to die anyway, I turn around to finish off Akali for fb. I use that death to get wards and another DB, then start zoning Akali all day, dodging LS ganks, and kill her twice once she gets level 6 and tries to down me. Akali got shut down and was useless for the remainder of the game, while I managed to catch people here and there in between Primordial bursts to the face. LS didn't say anything for the rest of the game and promptly left post-game chat.
I already knew Panth would have the edge against Akali, but finding out that way, and with the added correction that he actually trashes her, totally made my day. You suck at anything involving teamfights (except for clean-up) but it's k, I still love you dude. <3
On December 26 2011 16:35 Cloud9157 wrote: I'm curious since I've been seeing a lot more Panths in solo queue. How does he sustain? Do you just buy a Wriggles and call it a day?
On December 26 2011 16:35 Cloud9157 wrote: I'm curious since I've been seeing a lot more Panths in solo queue. How does he sustain? Do you just buy a Wriggles and call it a day?
You don't need sustain when the other guy is always dead
If you're forced into a sustain match as Panth in top lane you're doin it wrong or you shouldn't be playing that matchup.
On December 26 2011 16:35 Cloud9157 wrote: I'm curious since I've been seeing a lot more Panths in solo queue. How does he sustain? Do you just buy a Wriggles and call it a day?
You're a burst caster with easy harass. You don't "sustain" on anything besides your opponent's tears.
Went to top lane vs irelia, like 3rd game ever on panth and I'm like..yea shaco gank fast pls I prolly lose this. End up killing irelia as soon as I hit lvl 2 which I hit first as I was able to zone her since the get go (even ignited a creep instead of her lolz), then followed with a double kill on her and their jungle under my tower after some chasing around. Dblade opening holy fk! that damage. Game kinda rolled on from there and irelia was stuck around 50 cs when they surrendered :D
On December 27 2011 05:53 daemir wrote: Went to top lane vs irelia, like 3rd game ever on panth and I'm like..yea shaco gank fast pls I prolly lose this. End up killing irelia as soon as I hit lvl 2 which I hit first as I was able to zone her since the get go (even ignited a creep instead of her lolz), then followed with a double kill on her and their jungle under my tower after some chasing around. Dblade opening holy fk! that damage. Game kinda rolled on from there and irelia was stuck around 50 cs when they surrendered :D
MAN UP!
You'd prolly have a much harder time against irelia starting cloth5 with armour runes, esp if they run tp. Irelia so incredibly annoying.
That's true, that irelia went boots 3, but it was offset by me being a total nablet with mantheon. Never got that jungle gank either, the one time our shaco was gonna dive from behind the turret was when irelia was already 0-3 and I was 4-0-1 (ganked mid with ult) so I just killed irelia under turret before shaco had time to deceive in the distance ^_^
Yeah yesterday I actually lost the level one trade with irelia. Was still ahead in lane overall but it enabled a gank on me later that made things hard.
I played vs 300 elo less gp (i am 1700) and started doran blade. He went cloth + 5 and had armor quints/yellow . His parley proceded to do more dmg then my spear due to armor, and in sustained fights I also lost due to his passive. He managed to first blood me at 3 and then procceded to roflstomp me later
On December 29 2011 00:56 Makavw wrote: How do you win as pantheon vs gp?
I played vs 300 elo less gp (i am 1700) and started doran blade. He went cloth + 5 and had armor quints/yellow . His parley proceded to do more dmg then my spear due to armor, and in sustained fights I also lost due to his passive. He managed to first blood me at 3 and then procceded to roflstomp me later
How is he trading against you with parley? You get your shield up and it blocks parley. He goes to parley you, you spear him, then you get your shield back up on last hits while you're both on cooldown.
You don't really counter GP, but you lane against him just fine.
Also, even with armor, how is he possibly doing more damage? Pantheon's spear's base damage is x3 more than GP's parley at level 1, more than x2 at level 2, and has 0.4 ad scaling better. None of this makes sense to me. His passive shouldn't be making up for 45 damage at level 1, 60 damage at level 2, 75 damage at level 3 and .4 ad scaling with your shield to take hits.
I tried to follow the guidlines here and force the level 1 fight, he came out of it waaay better then me and then he proceded to deny me. I couldnt autoattack creeps since he was there and spent evrey parley at me if i came close. And he had frikin 5 more potions and i could only stare with doran .
Spear base dmg is higher, but i only get extra dmg from any AD i get after. He gets base AD on top of his parley meaning that parley did more dmg then my spear at 1 on top of his extra armor from cloth + runes.
I dunno, beeing gp player myself as well i dont see anything that can pantheon do better then gp at solo top , and i so wanted to try him out more :/
Is smart casting E a good idea? I tried it for awhile but it just does not feel natural to me, should I keep trying and get used to it or is it better to manually cast it.
On December 29 2011 04:11 warscythes wrote: Quick question here
Is smart casting E a good idea? I tried it for awhile but it just does not feel natural to me, should I keep trying and get used to it or is it better to manually cast it.
I smartcast it, a lot easier that way in my opinion. Hover your mouse over enemy and press W>E for your combo.
On December 29 2011 02:05 Makavw wrote: I tried to follow the guidlines here and force the level 1 fight, he came out of it waaay better then me and then he proceded to deny me. I couldnt autoattack creeps since he was there and spent evrey parley at me if i came close. And he had frikin 5 more potions and i could only stare with doran .
Spear base dmg is higher, but i only get extra dmg from any AD i get after. He gets base AD on top of his parley meaning that parley did more dmg then my spear at 1 on top of his extra armor from cloth + runes.
I dunno, beeing gp player myself as well i dont see anything that can pantheon do better then gp at solo top , and i so wanted to try him out more :/
Wat runes are u running? With enough ad/apen runes his cloth armor should do almost nothing for him. Add dblade and u out damage by a large margin. I also guessing that you're tanking creep while he isn't? It's also better to get a couple autos/spears in before u trade sustained harass to get ur passive up faster. I actually like to go in lane and start whacking creep ASAP to get passive charged up and also build a creep advantage. You're going to push regardless of what you do so u might as well get an advantage while u push
On December 29 2011 02:05 Makavw wrote: I tried to follow the guidlines here and force the level 1 fight, he came out of it waaay better then me and then he proceded to deny me. I couldnt autoattack creeps since he was there and spent evrey parley at me if i came close. And he had frikin 5 more potions and i could only stare with doran .
Spear base dmg is higher, but i only get extra dmg from any AD i get after. He gets base AD on top of his parley meaning that parley did more dmg then my spear at 1 on top of his extra armor from cloth + runes.
I dunno, beeing gp player myself as well i dont see anything that can pantheon do better then gp at solo top , and i so wanted to try him out more :/
build up your passive and block parrrleys. it's really not hard, no idea how you fuck the matchup up tbh =\. sounds like you got scared and blinked first on the level 1 fight (autolose) or picked it where you were eating too much creep agro (which makes no sense vs. GP since he won't commit vs. you and your passive negates his harass trades).
On December 29 2011 02:05 Makavw wrote: I tried to follow the guidlines here and force the level 1 fight, he came out of it waaay better then me and then he proceded to deny me. I couldnt autoattack creeps since he was there and spent evrey parley at me if i came close. And he had frikin 5 more potions and i could only stare with doran .
Spear base dmg is higher, but i only get extra dmg from any AD i get after. He gets base AD on top of his parley meaning that parley did more dmg then my spear at 1 on top of his extra armor from cloth + runes.
I dunno, beeing gp player myself as well i dont see anything that can pantheon do better then gp at solo top , and i so wanted to try him out more :/
build up your passive and block parrrleys. it's really not hard, no idea how you fuck the matchup up tbh =\. sounds like you got scared and blinked first on the level 1 fight (autolose) or picked it where you were eating too much creep agro (which makes no sense vs. GP since he won't commit vs. you and your passive negates his harass trades).
Smash, is there any chance you could post a replay of this type of harass with the counting of the passive? I would be truly grateful!
On December 29 2011 04:11 warscythes wrote: Quick question here
Is smart casting E a good idea? I tried it for awhile but it just does not feel natural to me, should I keep trying and get used to it or is it better to manually cast it.
I smartcast it, a lot easier that way in my opinion. Hover your mouse over enemy and press W>E for your combo.
I used to smartcast it but often the cursor is on such a spot that the cast won't go off, even when I'm not mousing over myself, really annoying so I stopped smartcasting it.
Yea i probbably picked a fight with too much aggro. After the inital exchange he just didnt let me go near my creeps to build up passive and he could allow himself that since he was on 100% hp with 3 pots left and i was half with doran :/.
Got wrecked by riven today as well, she also started armor runes + cloth and maxed her shield. My spears did next to no dmg. Sigh, I am a crappy pantheon :D
On December 29 2011 02:05 Makavw wrote: I tried to follow the guidlines here and force the level 1 fight, he came out of it waaay better then me and then he proceded to deny me. I couldnt autoattack creeps since he was there and spent evrey parley at me if i came close. And he had frikin 5 more potions and i could only stare with doran .
Spear base dmg is higher, but i only get extra dmg from any AD i get after. He gets base AD on top of his parley meaning that parley did more dmg then my spear at 1 on top of his extra armor from cloth + runes.
I dunno, beeing gp player myself as well i dont see anything that can pantheon do better then gp at solo top , and i so wanted to try him out more :/
build up your passive and block parrrleys. it's really not hard, no idea how you fuck the matchup up tbh =\. sounds like you got scared and blinked first on the level 1 fight (autolose) or picked it where you were eating too much creep agro (which makes no sense vs. GP since he won't commit vs. you and your passive negates his harass trades).
Smash, is there any chance you could post a replay of this type of harass with the counting of the passive? I would be truly grateful!
buy pantheon, have no idea what i'm doing, get steamrolled read smash's guide on TL, do decently, but still win half/lose half watch 1 recording of him playing, rolling like a boss
I've got a question about that trynd game, smash. Why did you start pushing the lane again after you killed trynd the second time, instead of freezing it in front of you tower? It seems like you could've just kept him away from all the farm for the entire laning phase if you'd frozen it instead.
On January 01 2012 03:16 JackDino wrote: You ever try opening Red elixir and some hp pots over dblade?
ppl stopped doing that after the elixer nerfs, something along the lines of just not being cost-efficient enough to justify an all-consumable start. There used to be a fairly interesting triangle between dblade+pot vs boots+3 vs elixer+5 for pantheon (as well as a few others). I dont remember exactly how they interacted with each other tho, it's been so long.
On January 01 2012 03:16 JackDino wrote: You ever try opening Red elixir and some hp pots over dblade?
ppl stopped doing that after the elixer nerfs, something along the lines of just not being cost-efficient enough to justify an all-consumable start. There used to be a fairly interesting triangle between dblade+pot vs boots+3 vs elixer+5 for pantheon (as well as a few others). I dont remember exactly how they interacted with each other tho, it's been so long.
The thing is, elixir gives you more hp, same damage, no lifesteal but you get a few pots in trade, couldn't it be better for some matchups or dblade all the way.
and red pot is a bad opening since the nerf. it was only even strong when it was like 200 HP and 20 AD for 300 gold. that shit was broken, but now it's pretty meh.
Panth/leona lane needs some form of sustain. I usually open boots/3. If you fail to kill them with your first burst, you'll be in the troubles otherwise.
Any tips on laning Panth against Yorick? I just got my ass handed to me. I got FB at level 1, but he just came back to lane and started chucking ghouls at me every time I got close enough for a spear. It was pretty sad to watch really...
On January 04 2012 00:46 Terranasaur wrote: Any tips on laning Panth against Yorick? I just got my ass handed to me. I got FB at level 1, but he just came back to lane and started chucking ghouls at me every time I got close enough for a spear. It was pretty sad to watch really...
did you forget to back after you got fb?
the matchup's pretty impossible after awhile, but for the early levels, you can get all up in his grill and kill him if he tries to fight.
I dunno, it is a bad matchup, but if you had trouble pre-tear, you probably did something wrong.
Are there any champions that can deal with Pantheon that well as a solo top (beyond like, Garen/Yorick?), or do I just need to start running full armor pages if I go top against this jerk? Laned against him as Wukong with cloth/5 pots, armor seals/defensive masteries, never really felt like I could much of anything... granted my jungler fed him a kill, so that probably made it that much harder. I saw Kennen mentioned earlier, but I don't own that prick yet.
On January 04 2012 09:24 zer0das wrote: Are there any champions that can deal with Pantheon that well as a solo top (beyond like, Garen/Yorick?), or do I just need to start running full armor pages if I go top against this jerk? Laned against him as Wukong with cloth/5 pots, armor seals/defensive masteries, never really felt like I could much of anything... granted my jungler fed him a kill, so that probably made it that much harder. I saw Kennen mentioned earlier, but I don't own that prick yet.
malphite's the simple answer tbh. open cloth + 5, stack a couple dshields and spam /t at him.
I am not sure if I have really terrible luck or failure to play well, but I can completely dominate my lane and still just cannot bring that into a win as Pantheon. Most games I will get kills or just force my opponent back frequently enough where they will be multiple levels behind, but as soon as laning ends its feels like a loosing battle as people begin to group up and just focus me.
On January 04 2012 14:29 arto wrote: I am not sure if I have really terrible luck or failure to play well, but I can completely dominate my lane and still just cannot bring that into a win as Pantheon. Most games I will get kills or just force my opponent back frequently enough where they will be multiple levels behind, but as soon as laning ends its feels like a losing battle as people begin to group up and just focus me.
This is what separates good Pantheons from great Pantheons. Late game can be hard to manage, the biggest thing I can suggest is to not just blindly W onto an enemy carry. Use your W to reposition yourself out of danger from an AP or AD carry (or even a bruiser). Try to hit multiple targets with your heartseeker, don't try to heartseeker high risk targets, just try to put out some good damage on more than one target. Save your W to reposition yourself into a less threatening position during fights and be smart. Lategame is hard as Panth and requires a large amount of finesse.
I like to sit behind my ranged carry and HSS bruisers that jump on them as Pantheon. puts out hella damage, just use HSS as a zoning tool, I mean fuck, it's a 6 second CD at level 5, just be patient and use that shit to deter people from group diving your team.
On January 04 2012 15:45 Shikyo wrote: Um it's always better :S
meh. i think the first few levels aren't worth using because even tho it might do more damage, they can leave the aoe pretty easily and it's channeling so you're standing still (ie not sticking to them). That's just me tho
On January 04 2012 15:50 stormtemplar wrote: I've been PWNING my 1000 elo opponents with panth top, mostly due to this guide, so thanks. I wanted to ask, how do I jungle him, so I can slaugher people even if someone takes solo top after I ask for it?
Boots+3pot. More or less same masteries/runes as lane panth. Jungle is pretty weak so it doesn't really matter in all honesty. Same skill build because E doesn't do jack to minions at low levels and the cd is still significant enough. So Q>W/E>Q>E/W>Q>R. Then Q>R/E>W. More or less same item build except you may want to invest in wriggles. Personally, I'd rather just get 2 dorans. Panth jungle is a bit cheesy tho 'cause you need to get successful ganks or you'll fall behind.
On January 04 2012 17:08 OutlaW- wrote: Do u get +1.5% damage or 3% lifesteal?
Lifesteal imo 'cause that plus 2 dorans plus your E passive means you have pretty good sustain from just last hitting.
pantheon dominates GP so hard its not even funny, i was level 7 when he was 4 with 10 cs? i had maybe 50 with 4:0 too bad my team couldnt initiate and we lost to a good nocturne cassio combo
On January 04 2012 17:08 OutlaW- wrote: Do u get +1.5% damage or 3% lifesteal?
the masteries are a clickable link to how I allocate the points.
but to answer your question, lifesteal. lifesteal masteries double your initial lifesteal in lane, and that's a real big deal, especially when you're showing up without potions.
On December 29 2011 02:05 Makavw wrote: I tried to follow the guidlines here and force the level 1 fight, he came out of it waaay better then me and then he proceded to deny me. I couldnt autoattack creeps since he was there and spent evrey parley at me if i came close. And he had frikin 5 more potions and i could only stare with doran .
Spear base dmg is higher, but i only get extra dmg from any AD i get after. He gets base AD on top of his parley meaning that parley did more dmg then my spear at 1 on top of his extra armor from cloth + runes.
I dunno, beeing gp player myself as well i dont see anything that can pantheon do better then gp at solo top , and i so wanted to try him out more :/
build up your passive and block parrrleys. it's really not hard, no idea how you fuck the matchup up tbh =\. sounds like you got scared and blinked first on the level 1 fight (autolose) or picked it where you were eating too much creep agro (which makes no sense vs. GP since he won't commit vs. you and your passive negates his harass trades).
Or he got crit twice in a row by a stupid 4% chance which happens. If they crit you with Parley it does just under 200 dmg lv 1 which is kinda retarded.
On December 29 2011 02:05 Makavw wrote: I tried to follow the guidlines here and force the level 1 fight, he came out of it waaay better then me and then he proceded to deny me. I couldnt autoattack creeps since he was there and spent evrey parley at me if i came close. And he had frikin 5 more potions and i could only stare with doran .
Spear base dmg is higher, but i only get extra dmg from any AD i get after. He gets base AD on top of his parley meaning that parley did more dmg then my spear at 1 on top of his extra armor from cloth + runes.
I dunno, beeing gp player myself as well i dont see anything that can pantheon do better then gp at solo top , and i so wanted to try him out more :/
build up your passive and block parrrleys. it's really not hard, no idea how you fuck the matchup up tbh =\. sounds like you got scared and blinked first on the level 1 fight (autolose) or picked it where you were eating too much creep agro (which makes no sense vs. GP since he won't commit vs. you and your passive negates his harass trades).
Or he got crit twice in a row by a stupid 4% chance which happens. If they crit you with Parley it does just under 200 dmg lv 1 which is kinda retarded.
well, right, if the 0.16% chance of double crit parley happens when you commit to a fight (otherwise there's no excuse for you to not have your passive up when he parleys you), sure I guess that'll lose you the lane, but that's pretty clearly a sign of horrid luck and not a general matchup issue.
On January 05 2012 02:29 stormtemplar wrote: Question. In lane, how do I know how aggressive to be? In a void, I'm winning every lane I play, but it feels like past river I get ganked every 3 seconds and escape is difficult. I ward a lot, but It never seems to be enough. How do I know if I'm being to pushy in lane?
Also: Thanks for this, this guide is the main reason I'm up about 100 elo points. I feel so strong as panth now.
If you ward the correct spots, I am pretty sure you just need to work on your map awareness. While you struggle doing that, try to stay behind river as much as possible and establish movement patterns that barely let you get the last hits but keep you as far away from their turret as possible. Another indicator of being able to be aggressive is when their jungler is ganking another lane. This should instantly trigger an impulse to push your lane.
Unrelated: TIL how strong Pantheon is. Have been winning every lane I played today, even against 2 Rumbles, even though they started DShield and were 21/9/0, so that might not say too much.
On January 05 2012 06:25 mr_tolkien wrote: Bought him today. 3/0 in ranked with him with a 4.1 KDA.
Two times VS GP, they had 10 cs by 8 minutes, once VS Riven, was way harder @_@
i mean i see that u did that and thats why it doesnt matter, but dont u first play normals before going on ranked if u literally just bought a new hero? :x
On January 05 2012 06:25 mr_tolkien wrote: Bought him today. 3/0 in ranked with him with a 4.1 KDA.
Two times VS GP, they had 10 cs by 8 minutes, once VS Riven, was way harder @_@
i mean i see that u did that and thats why it doesnt matter, but dont u first play normals before going on ranked if u literally just bought a new hero? :x
SPOILER ALERT : normal is like ranked with no stats. Same characters. Same damages. Same XP.
well by playing bad(which is completely reasonable) with a champion you've never tried before in normals you don't bring down elo of other players and also have a more free way to learn
On January 05 2012 06:54 OutlaW- wrote: well by playing bad(which is completely reasonable) with a champion you've never tried before in normals you don't bring down elo of other players and also have a more free way to learn
You're way too sensitive about what Elo means, and I won my 3 games with him @_@ It's like Skarner, I never played him outside ranked and I have an 80% win rate with him, straightforward chars like this don't need a lot of training. Let's not derail the thread further and be back to MANTHEON :
When do you use this friggin ult except for ganking and when your team engages a teamfight ? It feels so hard to use really properly from lvl6 to 10 (when you're expected to still be in lane) :/
On January 05 2012 06:54 OutlaW- wrote: well by playing bad(which is completely reasonable) with a champion you've never tried before in normals you don't bring down elo of other players and also have a more free way to learn
You're way too sensitive about what Elo means, and I won my 3 games with him @_@ It's like Skarner, I never played him outside ranked and I have an 80% win rate with him, straightforward chars like this don't need a lot of training. Let's not derail the thread further and be back to MANTHEON :
When do you use this friggin ult except for ganking ? It feels so hard to place properly :/
Waiting for someone on your team to initiate then ulting everyone for ~800damage is the best.
On January 05 2012 06:54 OutlaW- wrote: well by playing bad(which is completely reasonable) with a champion you've never tried before in normals you don't bring down elo of other players and also have a more free way to learn
You're way too sensitive about what Elo means, and I won my 3 games with him @_@ It's like Skarner, I never played him outside ranked and I have an 80% win rate with him, straightforward chars like this don't need a lot of training. Let's not derail the thread further and be back to MANTHEON :
When do you use this friggin ult except for ganking ? It feels so hard to place properly :/
Waiting for someone on your team to initiate then ulting everyone for ~800damage is the best.
You're so fast that you couldn't read my edit XD My biggest question is during laning phase (around 6+), are you supposed to have a use for your ult ?
On January 05 2012 06:54 OutlaW- wrote: well by playing bad(which is completely reasonable) with a champion you've never tried before in normals you don't bring down elo of other players and also have a more free way to learn
You're way too sensitive about what Elo means, and I won my 3 games with him @_@ It's like Skarner, I never played him outside ranked and I have an 80% win rate with him, straightforward chars like this don't need a lot of training. Let's not derail the thread further and be back to MANTHEON :
When do you use this friggin ult except for ganking ? It feels so hard to place properly :/
Waiting for someone on your team to initiate then ulting everyone for ~800damage is the best.
You're so fast that you couldn't read my edit XD My biggest question is during laning phase (around 6+), are you supposed to have a use for your ult ?
only to get back to lane quickly i don't take ult til level 8, 10, or 11 usually
On January 05 2012 06:54 OutlaW- wrote: well by playing bad(which is completely reasonable) with a champion you've never tried before in normals you don't bring down elo of other players and also have a more free way to learn
You're way too sensitive about what Elo means, and I won my 3 games with him @_@ It's like Skarner, I never played him outside ranked and I have an 80% win rate with him, straightforward chars like this don't need a lot of training. Let's not derail the thread further and be back to MANTHEON :
When do you use this friggin ult except for ganking ? It feels so hard to place properly :/
Waiting for someone on your team to initiate then ulting everyone for ~800damage is the best.
You're so fast that you couldn't read my edit XD My biggest question is during laning phase (around 6+), are you supposed to have a use for your ult ?
only to get back to lane quickly i don't take ult til level 8, 10, or 11 usually
Meh. I always get it at 6 cause u never know if an opportunity to do a three man gank with ur jungler on other lanes, notably mid, will arise. I know I've also used it once to escape certain death after tower diving my opponent since the enemy jungler and mid lane was coming to cut me off and his ulti has shorter channel time than recall.
On January 05 2012 06:54 OutlaW- wrote: well by playing bad(which is completely reasonable) with a champion you've never tried before in normals you don't bring down elo of other players and also have a more free way to learn
You're way too sensitive about what Elo means, and I won my 3 games with him @_@ It's like Skarner, I never played him outside ranked and I have an 80% win rate with him, straightforward chars like this don't need a lot of training. Let's not derail the thread further and be back to MANTHEON :
When do you use this friggin ult except for ganking ? It feels so hard to place properly :/
Waiting for someone on your team to initiate then ulting everyone for ~800damage is the best.
You're so fast that you couldn't read my edit XD My biggest question is during laning phase (around 6+), are you supposed to have a use for your ult ?
only to get back to lane quickly i don't take ult til level 8, 10, or 11 usually
Meh. I always get it at 6 cause u never know if an opportunity to do a three man gank with ur jungles on other lanes, notably mid, will arise.
Ya. Ulting into a gank is one of the most satisfying things in the game. You can almost hear all the other players going "oh shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit" and running away like scared critters.
Also, its nice to ult onto a big stack of minions when returning to lane and instaclearing them. Those are the main times i use my ult in the laning phase.
On January 05 2012 06:54 OutlaW- wrote: well by playing bad(which is completely reasonable) with a champion you've never tried before in normals you don't bring down elo of other players and also have a more free way to learn
You're way too sensitive about what Elo means, and I won my 3 games with him @_@ It's like Skarner, I never played him outside ranked and I have an 80% win rate with him, straightforward chars like this don't need a lot of training. Let's not derail the thread further and be back to MANTHEON :
When do you use this friggin ult except for ganking ? It feels so hard to place properly :/
Waiting for someone on your team to initiate then ulting everyone for ~800damage is the best.
You're so fast that you couldn't read my edit XD My biggest question is during laning phase (around 6+), are you supposed to have a use for your ult ?
Sometimes, when my lane is reaaaaally far pushed and I have just killed someone, I'll back and gank bot with my ult. I usually make it back top without losing too much XP.
Got my first loss. I killed GP 4 times in lane, but he had decent CS (around 100 at 20 minutes, I had 200) because my team failed a lvl1 gank on him and he lived at 1HP with my ignite... So, I had no ignite, and couldn't finish him off when he was creeping with Q.
I ended the game 16/6/6 but the bott lane was way too heavy to carry :'(
Man Pantheon is fun but he is hard as well, especially the passive.
Hahaha, just played a game where they sent Karma top against my Pantheon. Their Lee Sin didn't even try a gank until I was 4/0 and level 9, which is way too late to do anything.
So far in my Pantheon playing the only person that's given me any real trouble has been Cho'Gath stacking armor, how do you deal with that? I went Last Whisper first but then the game got funky and for some reason we kept having teamfights toplane, so I never really got to lane extensively against Cho after that. Even so, it didn't seem like I was doing anywhere near enough damage to prevent him from just farming and regening what I hit him with.
I use my ult to flee, to finish off an enemy that ran past his tower, whenever I'm in range and there's somebody recalling or fleeing that you can ult (mid between the first two turrets for example), or when I get ganked and tower-dived, once my shit's on cd and I know I won't dodge them, I just cast my ult to gain that 1.5s where they can't target me but still get hit by the turret. Managed a double kill like that once, against Lee Sin and I think Wukong (I still died tho).
On January 05 2012 08:34 Alzadar wrote: Hahaha, just played a game where they sent Karma top against my Pantheon. Their Lee Sin didn't even try a gank until I was 4/0 and level 9, which is way too late to do anything.
So far in my Pantheon playing the only person that's given me any real trouble has been Cho'Gath stacking armor, how do you deal with that? I went Last Whisper first but then the game got funky and for some reason we kept having teamfights toplane, so I never really got to lane extensively against Cho after that. Even so, it didn't seem like I was doing anywhere near enough damage to prevent him from just farming and regening what I hit him with.
I think that Panth should only be picked against melee bruisers. He is very prone to counter picking, but is wonderful in certain match ups. Am I right ? I just 1v1d with a friend playing Riven, and I went 3/0 with him having 15cs at 10 minutes, knowing we're on the same elo.
I'm supposed to crush Renekton, right? I got edged by him 3 times in a row and the third time was because of Lee Sin. I think if I took havoc I woulda got the first kill too .
mmm, if he gets solid jungle presence up until level 6, it's hard, but 1v1, you ruin him pre-6. as with all renekton matchups though, it changes completely when he hits 6....
Against stuff like Parrrley? Shouldn't the banshee pop anyway? I know it has the same priority as spells, since Sivir's and Nocturne's shields can be popped at the same time as their banshee with a single spell, but since it's a passive...
On January 05 2012 08:34 Alzadar wrote: Hahaha, just played a game where they sent Karma top against my Pantheon. Their Lee Sin didn't even try a gank until I was 4/0 and level 9, which is way too late to do anything.
So far in my Pantheon playing the only person that's given me any real trouble has been Cho'Gath stacking armor, how do you deal with that? I went Last Whisper first but then the game got funky and for some reason we kept having teamfights toplane, so I never really got to lane extensively against Cho after that. Even so, it didn't seem like I was doing anywhere near enough damage to prevent him from just farming and regening what I hit him with.
Chogath absolutely wrecks pantheon in every way shape and form and short of being significantly better than him you will straight out lose.
On January 05 2012 22:59 Alaric wrote: Against stuff like Parrrley? Shouldn't the banshee pop anyway? I know it has the same priority as spells, since Sivir's and Nocturne's shields can be popped at the same time as their banshee with a single spell, but since it's a passive...
On January 05 2012 08:34 Alzadar wrote: Hahaha, just played a game where they sent Karma top against my Pantheon. Their Lee Sin didn't even try a gank until I was 4/0 and level 9, which is way too late to do anything.
So far in my Pantheon playing the only person that's given me any real trouble has been Cho'Gath stacking armor, how do you deal with that? I went Last Whisper first but then the game got funky and for some reason we kept having teamfights toplane, so I never really got to lane extensively against Cho after that. Even so, it didn't seem like I was doing anywhere near enough damage to prevent him from just farming and regening what I hit him with.
Chogath absolutely wrecks pantheon in every way shape and form and short of being significantly better than him you will straight out lose.
honestly I don't find cho to be a problem until he gets a chain vest, but once that happens, it's a one way ticket to frown town for Pantheon .
Isn't this valid for all champs tho, unless you managed to build a sizeable lead before that arrives? Or is it that as much as you can bully Cho, he'll manage to farm anyway thanks to his kit and passive so he'll get his chain vest soon enough no matter what?
On January 06 2012 01:16 Alaric wrote: Isn't this valid for all champs tho, unless you managed to build a sizeable lead before that arrives? Or is it that as much as you can bully Cho, he'll manage to farm anyway thanks to his kit and passive so he'll get his chain vest soon enough no matter what?
You can still ruin a lot of people after they get chain vest, but cho's infinite sustain, creep pushing, and gank supporting make it particularly difficult to deal with once he gets a chain vest, not to mention it doesn't hurt his threat level to you as much as say, forcing a riven to rush chain vest.
On January 06 2012 01:32 Shikyo wrote: I highly doubt you can even force a Riven to rush chain vest, in my opinion ninja tabi + wriggles should be enough to deal with panth
right, but that's not as much armor as quickly and she's behind the whole time. cho can literally spend his first 700 on a chain vest and still be problematic for you. that's the point I'm trying to make.
On January 06 2012 01:32 Shikyo wrote: I highly doubt you can even force a Riven to rush chain vest, in my opinion ninja tabi + wriggles should be enough to deal with panth
Yeah, but that's like 2300 gold down the drain. Haven't played a smart one (aka. one that maxes E against Panth) yet, but I'd be surprised if she'd get Wriggle's+Tabi in a reasonable amount of time.
Today, I bossed a Nidalee around who rushed Tabi (by the time I already had Bruta, huehue) and Wriggle's right after. Surprisingly, the matchup was really easy, because the sustain from Wriggle's is inexistant if she never gets near a single creep.
On January 06 2012 01:32 Shikyo wrote: I highly doubt you can even force a Riven to rush chain vest, in my opinion ninja tabi + wriggles should be enough to deal with panth
Yeah, but that's like 2300 gold down the drain. Haven't played a smart one (aka. one that maxes E against Panth) yet, but I'd be surprised if she'd get Wriggle's+Tabi in a reasonable amount of time.
Today, I bossed a Nidalee around who rushed Tabi (by the time I already had Bruta, huehue) and Wriggle's right after. Surprisingly, the matchup was really easy, because the sustain from Wriggle's is inexistant if she never gets near a single creep.
wriggles tabi is core on riven so that's not exactly down the drain
On January 06 2012 01:32 Shikyo wrote: I highly doubt you can even force a Riven to rush chain vest, in my opinion ninja tabi + wriggles should be enough to deal with panth
Yeah, but that's like 2300 gold down the drain. Haven't played a smart one (aka. one that maxes E against Panth) yet, but I'd be surprised if she'd get Wriggle's+Tabi in a reasonable amount of time.
Today, I bossed a Nidalee around who rushed Tabi (by the time I already had Bruta, huehue) and Wriggle's right after. Surprisingly, the matchup was really easy, because the sustain from Wriggle's is inexistant if she never gets near a single creep.
wriggles tabi is core on riven so that's not exactly down the drain
I'd imagine Riven would want mercs over tabi since she's not going to get much magic resist from items outside of GA. Masteries and runes only cover so much. But yea, I agree with your basic premise tho.
On January 06 2012 01:32 Shikyo wrote: I highly doubt you can even force a Riven to rush chain vest, in my opinion ninja tabi + wriggles should be enough to deal with panth
Yeah, but that's like 2300 gold down the drain. Haven't played a smart one (aka. one that maxes E against Panth) yet, but I'd be surprised if she'd get Wriggle's+Tabi in a reasonable amount of time.
Today, I bossed a Nidalee around who rushed Tabi (by the time I already had Bruta, huehue) and Wriggle's right after. Surprisingly, the matchup was really easy, because the sustain from Wriggle's is inexistant if she never gets near a single creep.
wriggles tabi is core on riven so that's not exactly down the drain
I might have misworded that. I was trying to put across that she magically has to get 2000+ gold and that's just not gonna happen in a reasonable amount of time against Panth.
On January 06 2012 01:32 Shikyo wrote: I highly doubt you can even force a Riven to rush chain vest, in my opinion ninja tabi + wriggles should be enough to deal with panth
Yeah, but that's like 2300 gold down the drain. Haven't played a smart one (aka. one that maxes E against Panth) yet, but I'd be surprised if she'd get Wriggle's+Tabi in a reasonable amount of time.
Today, I bossed a Nidalee around who rushed Tabi (by the time I already had Bruta, huehue) and Wriggle's right after. Surprisingly, the matchup was really easy, because the sustain from Wriggle's is inexistant if she never gets near a single creep.
nidalee needs early jungle help badly. she relies too much on auto-attacks for early harass and her heal gets absolutely shit on by spear shot in terms of mana efficiency. if she makes it to 6 in a reasonable amount of time without being too far back on CS, she can be fine though.
So do you just run @ nida and start stabbing her and draw creep aggro? What's stopping her from farming since she's ranged, 525 range even. Or do you jump on her when she goes for ranged minions? Never played against nida as pant, just wondering.
ummmmmm you throw spears at her. always spear chucking, never not spear chucking. commit to the fight when she's about to die, or just run her out of mana and force her off the lane.
On January 06 2012 06:04 Mogwai wrote: ummmmmm you throw spears at her. always spear chucking, never not spear chucking. commit to the fight when she's about to die, or just run her out of mana and force her off the lane.
And by the time she gets a wriggle's, you can draw creep aggro like a baws.
On January 07 2012 09:15 Alzadar wrote: Oh god, Mordekaiser is BRUTAL to lane against. I've never felt so helpless as Pantheon before.
We won the game though. Built Hexdrinker, ignored Morde and dived their squishies.
...really?!?!?!? how?!?!?!
you should be able to trash him at lvl 1 and he can't do jack shit to you since his shield generation is absolutely terrible until he hits like ~lvl 5 but by then you should have a really good exp and item advantage over him... if you play even remotely passive against morde and let him get spellvamp or be equal level/gold with you then yes, you're going to get wrecked.
On January 07 2012 09:15 Alzadar wrote: Oh god, Mordekaiser is BRUTAL to lane against. I've never felt so helpless as Pantheon before.
We won the game though. Built Hexdrinker, ignored Morde and dived their squishies.
...really?!?!?!? how?!?!?!
you should be able to trash him at lvl 1 and he can't do jack shit to you since his shield generation is absolutely terrible until he hits like ~lvl 5 but by then you should have a really good exp and item advantage over him... if you play even remotely passive against morde and let him get spellvamp or be equal level/gold with you then yes, you're going to get wrecked.
I don't see how. He opened Doran's Shield. Siphon of Destruction outranges Spear, does more damage, gives him shield and is only 2 seconds longer CD. After the first time he casts it I basically can't even touch his actual health unless I go balls out aggression, which I won't win because he has more health and can boost his own armor. He beats me right from the get-go at level 1 and it only gets worse as he continues to stack armor.
Position matters. Spear when his shield is down. Stay out of creep range when his E is up. If he E's, make him choose between harassing you with it (damage to you, but low shield gain) or E's creep (gives him more shield but you take control of lane).
Getting a NMM before or immediately after your second Doran's wouldn't hurt either.
On January 07 2012 10:44 NeoIllusions wrote: Position matters. Spear when his shield is down. Stay out of creep range when his E is up. If he E's, make him choose between harassing you with it (damage to you, but low shield gain) or E's creep (gives him more shield but you take control of lane).
Getting a NMM before or immediately after your second Doran's wouldn't hurt either.
Not much of a plan, what if he just saves his E and zones you out? He can get shield from his Q, E anytime you get close and W if you try to commit. Maybe there is some secret way to play the lane, but from my recent experience I'm going to say Mordekaiser hard counters Pantheon.
On January 07 2012 10:44 NeoIllusions wrote: Position matters. Spear when his shield is down. Stay out of creep range when his E is up. If he E's, make him choose between harassing you with it (damage to you, but low shield gain) or E's creep (gives him more shield but you take control of lane).
Getting a NMM before or immediately after your second Doran's wouldn't hurt either.
Not much of a plan, what if he just saves his E and zones you out? He can get shield from his Q, E anytime you get close and W if you try to commit. Maybe there is some secret way to play the lane, but from my recent experience I'm going to say Mordekaiser hard counters Pantheon.
one game =/= hard counter
you can just walk into his bushes at level 1 and start throwing spears. Morde is pretty weak early on until about the level where he gets a revolver, and you're Pantheon.
On January 07 2012 10:44 NeoIllusions wrote: Position matters. Spear when his shield is down. Stay out of creep range when his E is up. If he E's, make him choose between harassing you with it (damage to you, but low shield gain) or E's creep (gives him more shield but you take control of lane).
Getting a NMM before or immediately after your second Doran's wouldn't hurt either.
Not much of a plan, what if he just saves his E and zones you out? He can get shield from his Q, E anytime you get close and W if you try to commit. Maybe there is some secret way to play the lane, but from my recent experience I'm going to say Mordekaiser hard counters Pantheon.
one game =/= hard counter
you can just walk into his bushes at level 1 and start throwing spears. Morde is pretty weak early on until about the level where he gets a revolver, and you're Pantheon.
I know, but it felt so unbelievably helpless, it wasn't just that I was losing. I'd have to play it again, but I'm really unconvinced that it's even playable.
Maybe you're playing super pro Mordes but I can tell you with like 90% certainty I've never ever lost a lane as Pantheon against a Mordekaiser even before Morde's nerfs unless I get repeatedly ganked or I misplayed the lane.
as a Morde player, I can't even picture how Morde wouldn't get raped. like level 1, the minions meet, the first minion gets low, I want the last hit but there's an asshole Panth in the way. if I try and go up and siphon it, I get speared, if I siphon the Panth he spears me anyways and I miss the last hit. it sounds so bad that I'd probably be asking for ganks during champion select.
On January 07 2012 10:44 NeoIllusions wrote: Position matters. Spear when his shield is down. Stay out of creep range when his E is up. If he E's, make him choose between harassing you with it (damage to you, but low shield gain) or E's creep (gives him more shield but you take control of lane).
Getting a NMM before or immediately after your second Doran's wouldn't hurt either.
Not much of a plan, what if he just saves his E and zones you out? He can get shield from his Q, E anytime you get close and W if you try to commit. Maybe there is some secret way to play the lane, but from my recent experience I'm going to say Mordekaiser hard counters Pantheon.
How does he even zone you?
I just tried explaining this to you. You stand to a flank. Spear him whenever his shield is depleted. If he E's you, he should only hit you and not the creeps.
I've played Mord, his shield is not as durable as you make it sound. The only way it can consistent build up is if he has W on himself and he's standing against a lot of creeps. Outside of that, you should be able to outharass him.
you must understand that you need to go balls out aggressive with panth on level 1, and if youre not used to being aggressive dont worry about not doing well, just keep trying and discover when/how you should do it
On January 07 2012 12:51 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Also knowing where to stand to avoid him charging a shield + hitting you at the same time is pretty important.
That's probably it, I guess.
It's worth pointing our in case you weren't all aware that Mordekaiser's Siphon damage and shield generation were both buffed in the most recent patch.
On January 07 2012 12:51 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Also knowing where to stand to avoid him charging a shield + hitting you at the same time is pretty important.
That's probably it, I guess.
It's worth pointing our in case you weren't all aware that Mordekaiser's Siphon damage and shield generation were both buffed in the most recent patch.
Yes, but it's a only 5 damage increase at lvl 1, 10-15 damage increase at lvls 2-3. By the time he gets lvl 4-5 siphon you should already be super far ahead. His shield generation was buffed, but it's still massively nerfed from when Morde would generate full shields off of creep as opposed to 50%.
There's really no way to lose it, either he pushes himself to your tower to stay alive and then you zone him/jungler ganks him or he tries to deal with your spear harass while not pushing the wave and still last hitting. It should be really, really hard for him.
morde has always been a free matchup. dunno if I've ever lost it. when he doesn't have shield charged, don't let him charge it for free, it's really pretty straight forward.
If he plays it correctly, wouldn't a flank position set you up for getting ganked more easily, tho? Well, ganks are always a thing to account for as Panth, since if you do your job your opponent should ask for it, but until I get a ward I'd rather not paint a target on myself.
On January 07 2012 18:54 Alaric wrote: If he plays it correctly, wouldn't a flank position set you up for getting ganked more easily, tho? Well, ganks are always a thing to account for as Panth, since if you do your job your opponent should ask for it, but until I get a ward I'd rather not paint a target on myself.
Pantheon is always an easy gank because he plays very agressive and on top of that he has like no escape. If you're lucky you can W on their jungler and escape, but if the enemy has some form of cc like a slow/stun you're dead anyways. I don't know if there's a cv in your games(I still think it's great and always will), but if there is, if you're purple just cv wraiths/red so you know if the jungler is ganking top or not, if you're blue side and the enemy jungler starts blue you should be good aswell.
On January 07 2012 18:54 Alaric wrote: If he plays it correctly, wouldn't a flank position set you up for getting ganked more easily, tho? Well, ganks are always a thing to account for as Panth, since if you do your job your opponent should ask for it, but until I get a ward I'd rather not paint a target on myself.
How would a flank position set you up for a gank? Assuming you're in top lane, you can flank him to the side using bushes. If he camps that side, then you might have to position yourself near the river, which I suppose is riskier, but you should have full ward coverage of your lane after your first back.
Whenever you back as Pantheon, you should try to make it a point to buy a ward since Pantheon gets ganked so often and relatively easily due to lack of solid escape.
Yes, I was mostly talking before the first back, when you don't have wards. Also, against junglers with a good gap closer, being in the bush can put you quite far from your tower, especially if you're purple side. But it's been my rule since my 2nd game as Panth to buy a ward and one-two pots each time I back, in addition to my normal stuff (doran, blade thingy leading to bruta, etc.). Playing like Mogwai described really gives a good flow to it, since you should thus be killing your opponent/making him back frequently, backing yourself after you shoved the lane.
How would you build panth if you really crushed your lane (2-3 kills and your opponent with < 50cs by 20 minutes) but your other lanes are really behind and you have to carry all the team by yourself ? Happened to me 3-4 times recently, and BT/Bruta/2 Drings/Mercs isn't really enough to carry facecheckers @_@
You mean dblades? I like to build Aegis or GA after my first BT+bruta, then BT or LW, then the second defensive item and the third offensive item I didn't get. Not gonna carry anything with that tho, just not blow up.
The best thing to do I guess would be to help at least mid or to roam a bit as soon as you can, coming back top to deny and crush your opponent to slow his catching up, since you fall off too hard. I'd rather help one of the carries to get his farm.
I just had the saddest game ever. Went 7-0 top within like 15 minutes against Irelia, got a doublekill bot after ganking them and well, I generally did a really good job this game. Couldn't carry hard enough though, or couldn't get my team to end it quick enough, so I lost the game and ended it something stupid like 20-10-8 or so. Low elo real sad. :/
Edit: to actually contribute something: I'm sure I could have done more to end this game. How do you force to end a game faster as pantheon?
as any champ but especially strong early gamers like panth, you turn an early game stomp into a win by leading your team and taking objectives. mandrop other lanes every chance you get, kill somebody, and tell your stupid team to take towers and force fights while it's 5v4. double kill bot? assuming at least 1 of your bot lane is healthy and your jungler is around, that should be dragon + bot tower for free.
On January 08 2012 10:19 novalight wrote: as any champ but especially strong early gamers like panth, you turn an early game stomp into a win by leading your team and taking objectives. mandrop other lanes every chance you get, kill somebody, and tell your stupid team to take towers and force fights while it's 5v4. double kill bot? assuming at least 1 of your bot lane is healthy and your jungler is around, that should be dragon + bot tower for free.
tl;dr TAKE TOWERS/DRAGON/BARON
Did all of the above, it's pretty basic stuff. Team kept derping like they were fed, while I was the only one doing exceptionally well compared to the enemy laner. Guess there's games that can't be won after all. Still, I'ma look into the replay and see what I could've done better.
@smash I know its already been said that getting straight-up warmog-atma is a huge gold investment midgame and you're sacrificing your early to midgame power. But I still would like to hear your views about this ->
(I specifically want to discuss a scenario where you feel the game cannot be finished early, and will go into a lategame situation)
Say instead of getting a GA after your first BT, you get chainmail+negatron and upgrade to atmas. Then depending on the situation (if game goes long enough) belt+BFsword. Finally warmogs.
The argument about atmogs is usually it doesn't does anything for your damage until you finish it but we've always considered getting warmog before atma's mainly due to the need of building stacks on warmogs. But lately I feel, especially after the warmog nerf, that getting atma's first shouldn't be that huge of a deal since 1) it straightens up your damage curve 2) the extra 375 health from a fully stacked warmog doesn't really translate to that much more survivabilty or damage (less then 10AD) to what you already have with an unstacked warmog. So if the game does inevitably go to a lategame situation you are beefier than just GA path.
On January 08 2012 13:28 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: @smash I know its already been said that getting straight-up warmog-atma is a huge gold investment midgame and you're sacrificing your early to midgame power. But I still would like to hear your views about this ->
(I specifically want to discuss a scenario where you feel the game cannot be finished early, and will go into a lategame situation)
Say instead of getting a GA after your first BT, you get chainmail+negatron and upgrade to atmas. Then depending on the situation (if game goes long enough) belt+BFsword. Finally warmogs.
The argument about atmogs is usually it doesn't does anything for your damage until you finish it but we've always considered getting warmog before atma's mainly due to the need of building stacks on warmogs. But lately I feel, especially after the warmog nerf, that getting atma's first shouldn't be that huge of a deal since 1) it straightens up your damage curve 2) the extra 375 health from a fully stacked warmog doesn't really translate to that much more survivabilty or damage (less then 10AD) to what you already have with an unstacked warmog. So if the game does inevitably go to a lategame situation you are beefier than just GA path.
I did bruta -> BT -> Mog's -> Atmas a couple days ago. Still don't really like it. I think there's something to be said for bruta -> phage -> atma's -> mallet, but it still doesn't really fit my style. too late with the damage, too hard to get LW in time, no sustain, meh.
Also what do you do against Renektons that open cloth 5? I was winning the lane against my friend today in a tournament but he was pretty hard to play against. I think there's timings I need to watch out for with my aegis procs that I'm unaware of atm.
How do you play against a Sion as Pantheon? At early levels you can burst his shield easily with 1 spear 1 auto, but as he gets more levels, it's gets harder to bust it. Also, the guy I was playing was holding on to his stun until his shield went down, so if I tried to jump him after his shield popped to do damage, he'd just stun me and run. I have to check, but I think he was maxing his stun/leveling shield/stun evenly so taking the stun damage+minion aggro was pretty painful.
i tried panth vs gang. "denied" him so that he couldnt lasthit with melee, even so. Wide open to jungle ganks. so with jungle help i couldnt deny him the whole time. Also. He just bought philo and other gp5 items and spammed parrrley and heal, he was healing over 300 hp with heal so it also meant my harrass was just a waste of mana.
Now in the midgame or so i have 120 creeps he has 71, I call this a clear victory for him although i denied him as hard as i had mana. So, I still think panth is bad vs gang, sad I believed you guys and tried this -.-
On January 09 2012 10:48 Alaric wrote: He got jungle help. So if your jungle wasn't able to use that to your team's advantage, you're not the one at fault.
Doesn't even matter if he got jungle help, I got jungle help too and even killed the GP. My point is that after his heal heals him for 350 hp, he can lasthit with parrley, and with wriggles heals 50 hp per parrrley, I cant deny him in lane and as gp is 500000 times better in lategame panth just flat-out loses vs the hero hes supposed to hardcounter, funny how useless panth is
your just not as manly as locicero, and thats the number 1 stat on mantheon. maybe its just trolling but to me it feels like pantheon + aggresive support shits on traditional support + ranged ads in lane, if you get gp on top just trade with your ranged?
But I counterpicked pantheon vs GP because pantheon supposedly hardcounters GP o_o Why would I switch that if its supposed to be my best matchup?
And I dunno what you mean, he never lasthit with autoattack when he wasnt in his towerrange and I autod him whenever he tried to come close and used all my mana on spears(still not nearly enough though and just made me be at 0 mana).
No idea how you could even possibly deny harder than this, and yet he still could farm fine because he could just lasthit with Parrrrley and heal 300+ hp with W
On January 09 2012 10:40 Shikyo wrote: i tried panth vs gang. "denied" him so that he couldnt lasthit with melee, even so. Wide open to jungle ganks. so with jungle help i couldnt deny him the whole time. Also. He just bought philo and other gp5 items and spammed parrrley and heal, he was healing over 300 hp with heal so it also meant my harrass was just a waste of mana.
Now in the midgame or so i have 120 creeps he has 71, I call this a clear victory for him although i denied him as hard as i had mana. So, I still think panth is bad vs gang, sad I believed you guys and tried this -.-
You not being able to execute how to play that lane does not make it a bad matchup. Pantheon RAPES GP. Learn when to pull and push lanes, ward properly, then the jungle pressure becomes relatively obsolete for your team. (as in: your jungler can freeroam like he pleases to) You allowing him 71 CS when you have 120 (around 16-17 minutes) is a sign of not playing the lane correctly in my opinion.
It's nowhere near his BEST matchup in my opinion, but there's no way you should let him stay in the game like that. Like, he has to max W in order to heal as hard as he did and how on earth does he parrley creeps without eating QWE, especially if he eats oranges on CD?
Then, he was behind and got GP10. Do something. Tell your team you are WAY stronger right now and he's a nonfactor in teamfights. Push turrets like mad, what are they gonna do?
On January 09 2012 10:40 Shikyo wrote: i tried panth vs gang. "denied" him so that he couldnt lasthit with melee, even so. Wide open to jungle ganks. so with jungle help i couldnt deny him the whole time. Also. He just bought philo and other gp5 items and spammed parrrley and heal, he was healing over 300 hp with heal so it also meant my harrass was just a waste of mana.
Now in the midgame or so i have 120 creeps he has 71, I call this a clear victory for him although i denied him as hard as i had mana. So, I still think panth is bad vs gang, sad I believed you guys and tried this -.-
You not being able to execute how to play that lane does not make it a bad matchup. Pantheon RAPES GP. Learn when to pull and push lanes, ward properly, then the jungle pressure becomes relatively obsolete for your team. (as in: your jungler can freeroam like he pleases to) You allowing him 71 CS when you have 120 (around 16-17 minutes) is a sign of not playing the lane correctly in my opinion.
It's nowhere near his BEST matchup in my opinion, but there's no way you should let him stay in the game like that. Like, he has to max W in order to heal as hard as he did and how on earth does he parrley creeps without eating QWE, especially if he eats oranges on CD?
Then, he was behind and got GP10. Do something. Tell your team you are WAY stronger right now and he's a nonfactor in teamfights. Push turrets like mad, what are they gonna do?
Panth is by no means useless. What the fuck.
I warded properly, as you perhaps understood from me never gotten ganked by the jungler, I just couldn't deny gang so he could freefarm when the jungler was around. Isn't that exactly what I said?
Yeah, he maxed heal first with only lvl 1 parrrrley. And he did only eat Q, I couldn't QWE without being in range of his turret. 2 times I did QWE though but that's not mana efficient at all compared to just spear spam so I stopped doing that.
And yeah I wish I knew how to play it correctly if it's not correct when he cant melee a creep unless it's at his tower, constantly eats spears, and his jungler has to camp top and he still gets denied. Please share me your wisdom?
I can't just tank a 10 creep wave for 50 years to hold the wave in place as you probably would like me to, that would make me lose way too much hp, so it's necessary for the lane to push sometimes.
Think Panth has absolutely no way of winning that lane ever and gets super hardcountered by philo gangplank.
Oh okay so the way panth counters gangplank is by going to push other lanes and letting gangplank freefarm while defending the turret you're pushing with his ulti? That sounds like a great idea
On January 09 2012 10:40 Shikyo wrote: i tried panth vs gang. "denied" him so that he couldnt lasthit with melee, even so. Wide open to jungle ganks. so with jungle help i couldnt deny him the whole time. Also. He just bought philo and other gp5 items and spammed parrrley and heal, he was healing over 300 hp with heal so it also meant my harrass was just a waste of mana.
Now in the midgame or so i have 120 creeps he has 71, I call this a clear victory for him although i denied him as hard as i had mana. So, I still think panth is bad vs gang, sad I believed you guys and tried this -.-
You not being able to execute how to play that lane does not make it a bad matchup. Pantheon RAPES GP. Learn when to pull and push lanes, ward properly, then the jungle pressure becomes relatively obsolete for your team. (as in: your jungler can freeroam like he pleases to) You allowing him 71 CS when you have 120 (around 16-17 minutes) is a sign of not playing the lane correctly in my opinion.
It's nowhere near his BEST matchup in my opinion, but there's no way you should let him stay in the game like that. Like, he has to max W in order to heal as hard as he did and how on earth does he parrley creeps without eating QWE, especially if he eats oranges on CD?
Then, he was behind and got GP10. Do something. Tell your team you are WAY stronger right now and he's a nonfactor in teamfights. Push turrets like mad, what are they gonna do?
Panth is by no means useless. What the fuck.
I warded properly, as you perhaps understood from me never gotten ganked by the jungler, I just couldn't deny gang so he could freefarm when the jungler was around. Isn't that exactly what I said?
Yeah, he maxed heal first with only lvl 1 parrrrley. And he did only eat Q, I couldn't QWE without being in range of his turret. 2 times I did QWE though but that's not mana efficient at all compared to just spear spam so I stopped doing that.
And yeah I wish I knew how to play it correctly if it's not correct when he cant melee a creep unless it's at his tower, constantly eats spears, and his jungler has to camp top and he still gets denied. Please share me your wisdom?
I can't just tank a 10 creep wave for 50 years to hold the wave in place as you probably would like me to, that would make me lose way too much hp, so it's necessary for the lane to push sometimes.
Think Panth has absolutely no way of winning that lane ever and gets super hardcountered by philo gangplank.
Oh okay so the way panth counters gangplank is by going to push other lanes and letting gangplank freefarm while defending the turret you're pushing with his ulti? That sounds like a great idea
I don't think it's an issue of you beating gp but the issue sounds like it's rather you dont know what to do with your 50 cs x lvl lead over gp.
yes, if gp goes wriggles, double gp/10, and maxes oranges, he can avoid getting killed outright, but he'll still be behind. while gp is playing catchup, you need to exert your advantage in helping your team snowball and get more ahead.
obviously, if you can't use that advantage to get your team an unsurmountable lead, then gp will catch up and crush you lategame. that's how it is with all early-game oriented champions, like leblanc.
And i still wanna know how you're supposed to lane against sion :[
On January 09 2012 10:40 Shikyo wrote: i tried panth vs gang. "denied" him so that he couldnt lasthit with melee, even so. Wide open to jungle ganks. so with jungle help i couldnt deny him the whole time. Also. He just bought philo and other gp5 items and spammed parrrley and heal, he was healing over 300 hp with heal so it also meant my harrass was just a waste of mana.
Now in the midgame or so i have 120 creeps he has 71, I call this a clear victory for him although i denied him as hard as i had mana. So, I still think panth is bad vs gang, sad I believed you guys and tried this -.-
You not being able to execute how to play that lane does not make it a bad matchup. Pantheon RAPES GP. Learn when to pull and push lanes, ward properly, then the jungle pressure becomes relatively obsolete for your team. (as in: your jungler can freeroam like he pleases to) You allowing him 71 CS when you have 120 (around 16-17 minutes) is a sign of not playing the lane correctly in my opinion.
It's nowhere near his BEST matchup in my opinion, but there's no way you should let him stay in the game like that. Like, he has to max W in order to heal as hard as he did and how on earth does he parrley creeps without eating QWE, especially if he eats oranges on CD?
Then, he was behind and got GP10. Do something. Tell your team you are WAY stronger right now and he's a nonfactor in teamfights. Push turrets like mad, what are they gonna do?
Panth is by no means useless. What the fuck.
I warded properly, as you perhaps understood from me never gotten ganked by the jungler, I just couldn't deny gang so he could freefarm when the jungler was around. Isn't that exactly what I said?
Yeah, he maxed heal first with only lvl 1 parrrrley. And he did only eat Q, I couldn't QWE without being in range of his turret. 2 times I did QWE though but that's not mana efficient at all compared to just spear spam so I stopped doing that.
And yeah I wish I knew how to play it correctly if it's not correct when he cant melee a creep unless it's at his tower, constantly eats spears, and his jungler has to camp top and he still gets denied. Please share me your wisdom?
I can't just tank a 10 creep wave for 50 years to hold the wave in place as you probably would like me to, that would make me lose way too much hp, so it's necessary for the lane to push sometimes.
Think Panth has absolutely no way of winning that lane ever and gets super hardcountered by philo gangplank.
Oh okay so the way panth counters gangplank is by going to push other lanes and letting gangplank freefarm while defending the turret you're pushing with his ulti? That sounds like a great idea
Gonna answer paragraph by paragraph.
Tell your team to take advantage of when their jungler is camping top. Nothing stops them from doing dragon and pushing turrets while he is top.
By level 9, he should either have died several times or lost a lot of XP because you zone him hardcore. He runs out of mana fast if he maxes W, so I don't see how QWE isn't mana efficient against him. You should be around level 11, that's a level 3/4 HSS. That shit hurts. You should also have a Brutalizer at that point, which means you can drop him in one combo as soon as he hits like 70%. You are aware you can towerdive like mad with Spear (first block) -> W (second block) -> Auto -> HSS cancel -> Auto -> Spear (3rd block) and an Ignite? How does he farm under turret with that pressure in mind, Q+maxed W run him oom ridiculously fast.
I already said that, but if their jungler camps you, tell your team to take advantage of that. You make rest of the map a 4v3, which equals a win for your team.
You can tank a 10 minion creep wave for stupid amounts of time. Get 2-3 pots and realize you constantly lifesteal off of crits.
Philo is 820 gold, that's 30-40 CS. How does he get 40 in any reasonable amount of time, I mean, wat? You should at least double his CS and have double dorans and probably a long sword. How on earth is he supposed to deal with that? How can you not take advantage of that huge lead? And please don't tell me he started Regrowth, that'd just be the epitome of ridiculing yourself.
And yeah, you can tell your jungler to hold top for you and push because you are supposed to be stronger than everyone on the map early on. Hell, even if you go 5v4, you can get a dragon and at least two towers out of that if you play it correctly.
Also, I'd be really interested how on earth he would manage to get MULTIPLE GP10s and a Wriggle's before the game is basically decided. That's 3200ish gold. How does he get 3k+ gold laning against Panth?
It sounds like you didn't manage your creeps correctly and don't know how to push your advantage over him and suffered from that. That's about it.
He started rejuv pendant -> philo and he indeed managed to farm the 365 gold pretty fast for philo, after which he had quite a bit of mana to spam heal.
Also I dunno if you knew this but pantheons skills cost a ton of mana and gangplank had teleport giving him a free heal.
I honestly believe that the gangplank has to absolutely suck if you can somehow kill him in lane if he maxes W
Also you seriously seem to completely ignore the jungler camping, it's not like I have problems denying if I can hump the edge of his tower range the whole time...
destroyed irelia. she had 13 cs at lv7 and was 2 lvls behind me I feel so good now and I gave the irelia the first loss w/ irelia. Hes now 6-1 with irelia
On January 09 2012 12:29 Shikyo wrote: He started rejuv pendant -> philo and he indeed managed to farm the 365 gold pretty fast for philo, after which he had quite a bit of mana to spam heal.
Also I dunno if you knew this but pantheons skills cost a ton of mana and gangplank had teleport giving him a free heal.
I honestly believe that the gangplank has to absolutely suck if you can somehow kill him in lane if he maxes W
Also you seriously seem to completely ignore the jungler camping, it's not like I have problems denying if I can hump the edge of his tower range the whole time...
To me this sounds like a) You weren't aggressive enough very early. For me I always thought I was, then I saw smash playing and realized I have fuck no idea at all what "aggressive" means in this matchup or for pantheon in general.
b) You control the creepflow badly.
How the lane should look like, ESPECIALLY for regrowth opening: You get in his face lvl 1. If he agrees to a trade the lane is already done cause he'll be below 50% while you're at 90%.
If he doesn't agree to trade, you just won lanecontrol. I usually aim to keep it pushed early to hit lvl 3 and 5 earlier than him. The levels where you get into his face heavily with spears are 1, 3, 5. Regrowth opening has no where near the needed sustain vs Dblade panth if even most cloth+5 openings struggle.
After the wave first hits his tower (lvl 3-4, depending on which side your on and what the enemy jungle most likely does you can start to either go back and buy and then zone him or start with it right there, most likely resulting in a kill.
Whenever I feel that I played Panth vs cloth+5 correctly he dies 2-3 times / is behind 2+ levels / is behind 50+ CS before he finishes wriggles. That's enough to keep shitting on him 24/7.
If the enemy jungle seems campy, hell, buy two wards each time. He can stay top and steal xp/push waves all day, I don't care. Not to mention you can tell your team that you're being camped but fine & tell your jungle that he can shit all over the rest of the map.
PS: Even though I find TP annoying because of the LOLIMBACKHI factor, that means there is no fucking way in hell that he can ever commit to a 1n1 while also being behind in levels/items. Force those all fucking day.
PPS: GPs W starts to heal for "350+" at level 9. You should have forced enough of an advantage WAY before that to keep raping him once he gets there.
PPPS: -"I tried Panth vs GP" & "But I counterpicked pantheon vs GP because pantheon supposedly hardcounters GP" (aka I'm playing this matchup for the first time) into -"panth just flat-out loses vs the hero hes supposed to hardcounter, funny how useless panth is" (aka lol panth always sucks and loses to GP) into -"And yeah I wish I knew how to play it correctly if it's not correct when he cant melee a creep unless it's at his tower, constantly eats spears, and his jungler has to camp top and he still gets denied. Please share me your wisdom?" (aka im awesum at this game lol wtf don't talk me like I don't know how to play - which you obviously don't.) -"Think Panth has absolutely no way of winning that lane ever and gets super hardcountered by philo gangplank." (aka retarded theorycraft originating from you originally having no idea whatsoever how to play the matchup since it was your first time and completely generalizing this experience on EVERYONE playing this matchup.)
...is arrogant, whiney and quite frankly producing an incredibly retarded chain of thoughts.
...sadly I didn't even realize all of this before I typed my answer above since you seem to be coming here to whine (nicely hidden btw) instead of asking for actual advice.
On January 09 2012 10:40 Shikyo wrote: i tried panth vs gang. "denied" him so that he couldnt lasthit with melee, even so. Wide open to jungle ganks. so with jungle help i couldnt deny him the whole time. Also. He just bought philo and other gp5 items and spammed parrrley and heal, he was healing over 300 hp with heal so it also meant my harrass was just a waste of mana.
Now in the midgame or so i have 120 creeps he has 71, I call this a clear victory for him although i denied him as hard as i had mana. So, I still think panth is bad vs gang, sad I believed you guys and tried this -.-
You not being able to execute how to play that lane does not make it a bad matchup. Pantheon RAPES GP. Learn when to pull and push lanes, ward properly, then the jungle pressure becomes relatively obsolete for your team. (as in: your jungler can freeroam like he pleases to) You allowing him 71 CS when you have 120 (around 16-17 minutes) is a sign of not playing the lane correctly in my opinion.
It's nowhere near his BEST matchup in my opinion, but there's no way you should let him stay in the game like that. Like, he has to max W in order to heal as hard as he did and how on earth does he parrley creeps without eating QWE, especially if he eats oranges on CD?
Then, he was behind and got GP10. Do something. Tell your team you are WAY stronger right now and he's a nonfactor in teamfights. Push turrets like mad, what are they gonna do?
Panth is by no means useless. What the fuck.
I warded properly, as you perhaps understood from me never gotten ganked by the jungler, I just couldn't deny gang so he could freefarm when the jungler was around. Isn't that exactly what I said?
Yeah, he maxed heal first with only lvl 1 parrrrley. And he did only eat Q, I couldn't QWE without being in range of his turret. 2 times I did QWE though but that's not mana efficient at all compared to just spear spam so I stopped doing that.
And yeah I wish I knew how to play it correctly if it's not correct when he cant melee a creep unless it's at his tower, constantly eats spears, and his jungler has to camp top and he still gets denied. Please share me your wisdom?
I can't just tank a 10 creep wave for 50 years to hold the wave in place as you probably would like me to, that would make me lose way too much hp, so it's necessary for the lane to push sometimes.
Think Panth has absolutely no way of winning that lane ever and gets super hardcountered by philo gangplank.
Oh okay so the way panth counters gangplank is by going to push other lanes and letting gangplank freefarm while defending the turret you're pushing with his ulti? That sounds like a great idea
Gonna answer paragraph by paragraph.
Tell your team to take advantage of when their jungler is camping top. Nothing stops them from doing dragon and pushing turrets while he is top.
By level 9, he should either have died several times or lost a lot of XP because you zone him hardcore. He runs out of mana fast if he maxes W, so I don't see how QWE isn't mana efficient against him. You should be around level 11, that's a level 3/4 HSS. That shit hurts. You should also have a Brutalizer at that point, which means you can drop him in one combo as soon as he hits like 70%. You are aware you can towerdive like mad with Spear (first block) -> W (second block) -> Auto -> HSS cancel -> Auto -> Spear (3rd block) and an Ignite? How does he farm under turret with that pressure in mind, Q+maxed W run him oom ridiculously fast.
I already said that, but if their jungler camps you, tell your team to take advantage of that. You make rest of the map a 4v3, which equals a win for your team.
You can tank a 10 minion creep wave for stupid amounts of time. Get 2-3 pots and realize you constantly lifesteal off of crits.
Philo is 820 gold, that's 30-40 CS. How does he get 40 in any reasonable amount of time, I mean, wat? You should at least double his CS and have double dorans and probably a long sword. How on earth is he supposed to deal with that? How can you not take advantage of that huge lead? And please don't tell me he started Regrowth, that'd just be the epitome of ridiculing yourself.
And yeah, you can tell your jungler to hold top for you and push because you are supposed to be stronger than everyone on the map early on. Hell, even if you go 5v4, you can get a dragon and at least two towers out of that if you play it correctly.
Also, I'd be really interested how on earth he would manage to get MULTIPLE GP10s and a Wriggle's before the game is basically decided. That's 3200ish gold. How does he get 3k+ gold laning against Panth?
It sounds like you didn't manage your creeps correctly and don't know how to push your advantage over him and suffered from that. That's about it.
I understand there's TL fever surrounding pantheon but GP maxing w will be fine against panth. The whole basis of this panth hardcounter gp argument is that parley gets blocked. Max w GP won't be parleying you. He sits on GP10 and parleys minions for gold. You will have plenty more CS than him but he won't be feeding you, which IMO is a win for GP.
to address some of your points
w costs a constant 65 mana..
the beauty of GP top is that he can just sit in lane and ult to help the team, even if he maxes w first. he will still have presence on the map. How do you get dragons when your smiter is covering top for you while you 4v4 at drag when they have smite + gp ult? Your theorycrafting is a little too much for me, and if this is not theorycrafting then show me a ranked replay of this smiter covering top while you drag business
Okay, here's what smash said about sustain. Sustain doesn't help you come out ahead in burst trades. You NEED to get in his face from level1.
You say he opened regrowth. Not even cloth+5. Pantheon should SHIT on him for the first 3 levels. Also about GP's sustain. W has a really long-ass CD. Its 22sec at lvl1. He has no way to come out ahead trades(especially with a lvl1 parleyyy), pantheon doesn't care about tower shots so basically GP has to recall constantly. TP has a pretty high CD too. If he's starting regrowth, he should be crazy behind by the time he gets to his wriggles, and by that time you should have ur 2DB, bruta and boots2. Go put pressure everywhere else whenever you force him to recall.
On January 09 2012 10:40 Shikyo wrote: i tried panth vs gang. "denied" him so that he couldnt lasthit with melee, even so. Wide open to jungle ganks. so with jungle help i couldnt deny him the whole time. Also. He just bought philo and other gp5 items and spammed parrrley and heal, he was healing over 300 hp with heal so it also meant my harrass was just a waste of mana.
Now in the midgame or so i have 120 creeps he has 71, I call this a clear victory for him although i denied him as hard as i had mana. So, I still think panth is bad vs gang, sad I believed you guys and tried this -.-
You not being able to execute how to play that lane does not make it a bad matchup. Pantheon RAPES GP. Learn when to pull and push lanes, ward properly, then the jungle pressure becomes relatively obsolete for your team. (as in: your jungler can freeroam like he pleases to) You allowing him 71 CS when you have 120 (around 16-17 minutes) is a sign of not playing the lane correctly in my opinion.
It's nowhere near his BEST matchup in my opinion, but there's no way you should let him stay in the game like that. Like, he has to max W in order to heal as hard as he did and how on earth does he parrley creeps without eating QWE, especially if he eats oranges on CD?
Then, he was behind and got GP10. Do something. Tell your team you are WAY stronger right now and he's a nonfactor in teamfights. Push turrets like mad, what are they gonna do?
Panth is by no means useless. What the fuck.
I warded properly, as you perhaps understood from me never gotten ganked by the jungler, I just couldn't deny gang so he could freefarm when the jungler was around. Isn't that exactly what I said?
Yeah, he maxed heal first with only lvl 1 parrrrley. And he did only eat Q, I couldn't QWE without being in range of his turret. 2 times I did QWE though but that's not mana efficient at all compared to just spear spam so I stopped doing that.
And yeah I wish I knew how to play it correctly if it's not correct when he cant melee a creep unless it's at his tower, constantly eats spears, and his jungler has to camp top and he still gets denied. Please share me your wisdom?
I can't just tank a 10 creep wave for 50 years to hold the wave in place as you probably would like me to, that would make me lose way too much hp, so it's necessary for the lane to push sometimes.
Think Panth has absolutely no way of winning that lane ever and gets super hardcountered by philo gangplank.
Oh okay so the way panth counters gangplank is by going to push other lanes and letting gangplank freefarm while defending the turret you're pushing with his ulti? That sounds like a great idea
Gonna answer paragraph by paragraph.
Tell your team to take advantage of when their jungler is camping top. Nothing stops them from doing dragon and pushing turrets while he is top.
By level 9, he should either have died several times or lost a lot of XP because you zone him hardcore. He runs out of mana fast if he maxes W, so I don't see how QWE isn't mana efficient against him. You should be around level 11, that's a level 3/4 HSS. That shit hurts. You should also have a Brutalizer at that point, which means you can drop him in one combo as soon as he hits like 70%. You are aware you can towerdive like mad with Spear (first block) -> W (second block) -> Auto -> HSS cancel -> Auto -> Spear (3rd block) and an Ignite? How does he farm under turret with that pressure in mind, Q+maxed W run him oom ridiculously fast.
I already said that, but if their jungler camps you, tell your team to take advantage of that. You make rest of the map a 4v3, which equals a win for your team.
You can tank a 10 minion creep wave for stupid amounts of time. Get 2-3 pots and realize you constantly lifesteal off of crits.
Philo is 820 gold, that's 30-40 CS. How does he get 40 in any reasonable amount of time, I mean, wat? You should at least double his CS and have double dorans and probably a long sword. How on earth is he supposed to deal with that? How can you not take advantage of that huge lead? And please don't tell me he started Regrowth, that'd just be the epitome of ridiculing yourself.
And yeah, you can tell your jungler to hold top for you and push because you are supposed to be stronger than everyone on the map early on. Hell, even if you go 5v4, you can get a dragon and at least two towers out of that if you play it correctly.
Also, I'd be really interested how on earth he would manage to get MULTIPLE GP10s and a Wriggle's before the game is basically decided. That's 3200ish gold. How does he get 3k+ gold laning against Panth?
It sounds like you didn't manage your creeps correctly and don't know how to push your advantage over him and suffered from that. That's about it.
I understand there's TL fever surrounding pantheon but GP maxing w will be fine against panth. The whole basis of this panth hardcounter gp argument is that parley gets blocked. Max w GP won't be parleying you. He sits on GP10 and parleys minions for gold. You will have plenty more CS than him but he won't be feeding you, which IMO is a win for GP.
to address some of your points
w costs a constant 65 mana..
the beauty of GP top is that he can just sit in lane and ult to help the team, even if he maxes w first. he will still have presence on the map. How do you get dragons when your smiter is covering top for you while you 4v4 at drag when they have smite + gp ult? Your theorycrafting is a little too much for me, and if this is not theorycrafting then show me a ranked replay of this smiter covering top while you drag business
Why the fuck would you be dragoning without the jungler there ? And he was talking about THEIR jungler camping YOU at top + being able to 5v4 where YOU are the 5 because GP should be trying to catch up on farm top giving you a clear advantage if you want to force a teamfight.
"And yeah, you can tell your jungler to hold top for you and push because you are supposed to be stronger than everyone on the map early on. Hell, even if you go 5v4, you can get a dragon and at least two towers out of that if you play it correctly."
On January 09 2012 10:40 Shikyo wrote: i tried panth vs gang. "denied" him so that he couldnt lasthit with melee, even so. Wide open to jungle ganks. so with jungle help i couldnt deny him the whole time. Also. He just bought philo and other gp5 items and spammed parrrley and heal, he was healing over 300 hp with heal so it also meant my harrass was just a waste of mana.
Now in the midgame or so i have 120 creeps he has 71, I call this a clear victory for him although i denied him as hard as i had mana. So, I still think panth is bad vs gang, sad I believed you guys and tried this -.-
You not being able to execute how to play that lane does not make it a bad matchup. Pantheon RAPES GP. Learn when to pull and push lanes, ward properly, then the jungle pressure becomes relatively obsolete for your team. (as in: your jungler can freeroam like he pleases to) You allowing him 71 CS when you have 120 (around 16-17 minutes) is a sign of not playing the lane correctly in my opinion.
It's nowhere near his BEST matchup in my opinion, but there's no way you should let him stay in the game like that. Like, he has to max W in order to heal as hard as he did and how on earth does he parrley creeps without eating QWE, especially if he eats oranges on CD?
Then, he was behind and got GP10. Do something. Tell your team you are WAY stronger right now and he's a nonfactor in teamfights. Push turrets like mad, what are they gonna do?
Panth is by no means useless. What the fuck.
I warded properly, as you perhaps understood from me never gotten ganked by the jungler, I just couldn't deny gang so he could freefarm when the jungler was around. Isn't that exactly what I said?
Yeah, he maxed heal first with only lvl 1 parrrrley. And he did only eat Q, I couldn't QWE without being in range of his turret. 2 times I did QWE though but that's not mana efficient at all compared to just spear spam so I stopped doing that.
And yeah I wish I knew how to play it correctly if it's not correct when he cant melee a creep unless it's at his tower, constantly eats spears, and his jungler has to camp top and he still gets denied. Please share me your wisdom?
I can't just tank a 10 creep wave for 50 years to hold the wave in place as you probably would like me to, that would make me lose way too much hp, so it's necessary for the lane to push sometimes.
Think Panth has absolutely no way of winning that lane ever and gets super hardcountered by philo gangplank.
Oh okay so the way panth counters gangplank is by going to push other lanes and letting gangplank freefarm while defending the turret you're pushing with his ulti? That sounds like a great idea
I was like "this new poster in the forum sounds really bad at the game" and then I realized it was Shikyo. Shouldn't you know better than this? It's just about getting to level 2 first and immediately starting to zone him. Pray you're level 2 by the time their jungler comes to gank and try to either turn the gank into a kill, get a double kill, escape blowing w + flash or rest assured you're gonna beat them when you come back.
On January 09 2012 14:59 Saeglopur wrote: "And yeah, you can tell your jungler to hold top for you and push because you are supposed to be stronger than everyone on the map early on. Hell, even if you go 5v4, you can get a dragon and at least two towers out of that if you play it correctly."
i was responding to this
Why would you directly attempt dragon witht their jungler alive? I am talking about picking a fight, winning it because you are supposed to be ridiculously strong against a GP that opens Regrowth after a couple of minutes, then take objects out of that.
GP starting Philo is just asking to get speared all day—he may not die, but he'll at least have to back, or is going to get zoned pretty hard. Especially if you say QWE puts you into tower range, what I'd do in this case (I'm really far from other people here's level, but that's how I play until I harass people into OS zone) is just pull the wave, freeze it in your half of the lane if you can, and then zone the shit out of him because he won't be able to leave his tower.
And I don't even know how to pull properly, hell, I'd probably need to get told in details (I guess it has something to do with drawing aggro from your opponent's aa to make him push). I just take every chance I get whenever the enemy wave's bigger to let it come to my side, then more-or-less freeze it, and start zoning the enemy so he can't even push. Also, against GP you've got quite an advantage if you're on blue side and your jungler starts blue since you can use it to build up your passive before you even show up in lane. Inb4 level 1 fight.
r.Evo wrote: The levels where you get into his face heavily with spears are 1, 3, 5.
Do you mean you put a point into Q at level 3, and E at level 4? I tend to do the opposite to blow a QWE in my opponent's face as soon as I hit 3. But then again, maybe I'm too insecure about early jungle ganks but I'd rather freeze the lane and zone/Q people all day, even tho that means I'll get a big wave to my tower if I get ganked early and die.
On January 09 2012 18:42 Alaric wrote: Do you mean you put a point into Q at level 3, and E at level 4? I tend to do the opposite to blow a QWE in my opponent's face as soon as I hit 3. But then again, maybe I'm too insecure about early jungle ganks but I'd rather freeze the lane and zone/Q people all day, even tho that means I'll get a big wave to my tower if I get ganked early and die.
Yep. You want to harass with lvl 2 spears once you hit 3 so you have immediate killing potential at 4. It's the more mana efficient way to play it.
Why are you arguing over pant vs gp when smash himself said he can just farm as gp against a pant.
On January 06 2012 05:04 Mogwai wrote: It's funny, but even though I routinely CP GPs with Pantheon, I don't mind when I pick GP and the opponents pick Panth. Gear up dem Armor Quints, open cloth and just sit back and parley creeps. The thing that makes GP vs. Pantheon fine IMO is that oranges fuck up Pantheon's kill combos and GP's permaslow is basically an instant kill on Pantheon when you get a jungle gank vs. an aggressively positioned Pantheon.
But Mogwai's actually smart and you see a lot of people not knowing how to build accordingly to opponent. D: I can see his point though, I'd take anybody running loads of armor would do at least kind of fine against Panth with a ranged farming tool or the survival skill to get early sustain.
On January 06 2012 05:04 Mogwai wrote: It's funny, but even though I routinely CP GPs with Pantheon, I don't mind when I pick GP and the opponents pick Panth. Gear up dem Armor Quints, open cloth and just sit back and parley creeps. The thing that makes GP vs. Pantheon fine IMO is that oranges fuck up Pantheon's kill combos and GP's permaslow is basically an instant kill on Pantheon when you get a jungle gank vs. an aggressively positioned Pantheon.
On January 09 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote: Why are you arguing over pant vs gp when smash himself said he can just farm as gp against a pant.
On January 06 2012 05:04 Mogwai wrote: It's funny, but even though I routinely CP GPs with Pantheon, I don't mind when I pick GP and the opponents pick Panth. Gear up dem Armor Quints, open cloth and just sit back and parley creeps. The thing that makes GP vs. Pantheon fine IMO is that oranges fuck up Pantheon's kill combos and GP's permaslow is basically an instant kill on Pantheon when you get a jungle gank vs. an aggressively positioned Pantheon.
he.opened.regrowth.
Dunno how you'd be unable to rape a regrowth gp lol, even with fruits healing for 300 you should be so far ahead it shouldn't matter.
On January 09 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote: Why are you arguing over pant vs gp when smash himself said he can just farm as gp against a pant.
On January 06 2012 05:04 Mogwai wrote: It's funny, but even though I routinely CP GPs with Pantheon, I don't mind when I pick GP and the opponents pick Panth. Gear up dem Armor Quints, open cloth and just sit back and parley creeps. The thing that makes GP vs. Pantheon fine IMO is that oranges fuck up Pantheon's kill combos and GP's permaslow is basically an instant kill on Pantheon when you get a jungle gank vs. an aggressively positioned Pantheon.
he.opened.regrowth.
Dunno how you'd be unable to rape a regrowth gp lol, even with fruits healing for 300 you should be so far ahead it shouldn't matter.
That was my point. I highly doubt he had Armor Quints, too.
On January 09 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote: Why are you arguing over pant vs gp when smash himself said he can just farm as gp against a pant.
On January 06 2012 05:04 Mogwai wrote: It's funny, but even though I routinely CP GPs with Pantheon, I don't mind when I pick GP and the opponents pick Panth. Gear up dem Armor Quints, open cloth and just sit back and parley creeps. The thing that makes GP vs. Pantheon fine IMO is that oranges fuck up Pantheon's kill combos and GP's permaslow is basically an instant kill on Pantheon when you get a jungle gank vs. an aggressively positioned Pantheon.
he.opened.regrowth.
Dunno how you'd be unable to rape a regrowth gp lol, even with fruits healing for 300 you should be so far ahead it shouldn't matter.
That was my point. I highly doubt he had Armor Quints, too.
GP with armour quints(I actually use armour seals/quints on gp regardless of matchup, unless I'm against a mage) and cloth5 should be able to farm vs pant, especially with teleport but I don't see how he would even get a philo if he opens regrowth.
On January 08 2012 19:52 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Also what do you do against Renektons that open cloth 5? I was winning the lane against my friend today in a tournament but he was pretty hard to play against. I think there's timings I need to watch out for with my aegis procs that I'm unaware of atm.
meh, renek never struck me as a problem. spears in the face constantly, run away when he tries to ult and kill you.
On January 09 2012 02:28 r.Evo wrote: Since someone just mentioned it... how much sense does Aegis+Nega or Chain make instead of GA once BT+mercs are done?
uhh, depends how you're going to be playing teamfights. I can see Aegis being fine on Pantheon if you're babysitting your ranged carry and helping him zone in teamfights with HSS, but in cases like this, LW is a higher priority so that your HSS does meaningful damage to tanks. If you're doing standard, GO-BALLS-DEEP-FOR-THE-OPPOSING-RANGED-AD, Pantheon strategy, aegis is a pretty mediocre pick. GA or Mallet should be your defensive item if you're doing that. for whatever it's worth though, babysitting is how I like to play lategame with Pantheon, so I do build aegis from time to time.
On January 09 2012 04:28 Ryuu314 wrote: How do you play against a Sion as Pantheon? At early levels you can burst his shield easily with 1 spear 1 auto, but as he gets more levels, it's gets harder to bust it. Also, the guy I was playing was holding on to his stun until his shield went down, so if I tried to jump him after his shield popped to do damage, he'd just stun me and run. I have to check, but I think he was maxing his stun/leveling shield/stun evenly so taking the stun damage+minion aggro was pretty painful.
Loci and I used to think this was Pantheon's worst matchup. It sucks really hard after a little while, but early it's ezpz. I think one of the keys to not sucking ass in the matchup is to save your W until after he stuns you so that you can re-engage when he puts his shit on CD, as that's the only time you can do meaningful damage to a Sion.
On January 09 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote: Why are you arguing over pant vs gp when smash himself said he can just farm as gp against a pant.
On January 06 2012 05:04 Mogwai wrote: It's funny, but even though I routinely CP GPs with Pantheon, I don't mind when I pick GP and the opponents pick Panth. Gear up dem Armor Quints, open cloth and just sit back and parley creeps. The thing that makes GP vs. Pantheon fine IMO is that oranges fuck up Pantheon's kill combos and GP's permaslow is basically an instant kill on Pantheon when you get a jungle gank vs. an aggressively positioned Pantheon.
meh, Shikyo's mostly whining, so I'd suggest mostly ignoring him. he considers up 50 CS and a kill advantage not a successful Pantheon game, so there's really nothing to talk to him about with regards to that. I swear, no one knows how the fuck to play Pantheon later in the game, everyone just thinks they're fucking akali 2.0 and dives the whole opposing team onto the opposing carry, no one knows how to use HSS zoning to protect a carry.
interestingly though, I was talking to Neo a few days ago and he was talking about how most GPs consider W a 1-point wonder, which was really surprising to me because even if I'm aggressively dominating a lane with GP, I still max W after Q. GP's W scaling is retarded, with +70 heal, -1 CD, and no change to the mana per level. Whenever I'm having trouble on a lane with GP, I just max W and spam it and NPNP. Now, this doesn't really work if you open regrowth vs. Pantheon, but Armor Quints + Seals building cloth -> wriggle's + ninja tabi -> double gold/10 lets me routinely get my farm as GP vs. Pantheon.
On January 08 2012 19:52 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Also what do you do against Renektons that open cloth 5? I was winning the lane against my friend today in a tournament but he was pretty hard to play against. I think there's timings I need to watch out for with my aegis procs that I'm unaware of atm.
meh, renek never struck me as a problem. spears in the face constantly, run away when he tries to ult and kill you.
On January 09 2012 02:28 r.Evo wrote: Since someone just mentioned it... how much sense does Aegis+Nega or Chain make instead of GA once BT+mercs are done?
uhh, depends how you're going to be playing teamfights. I can see Aegis being fine on Pantheon if you're babysitting your ranged carry and helping him zone in teamfights with HSS, but in cases like this, LW is a higher priority so that your HSS does meaningful damage to tanks. If you're doing standard, GO-BALLS-DEEP-FOR-THE-OPPOSING-RANGED-AD, Pantheon strategy, aegis is a pretty mediocre pick. GA or Mallet should be your defensive item if you're doing that. for whatever it's worth though, babysitting is how I like to play lategame with Pantheon, so I do build aegis from time to time.
On January 09 2012 04:28 Ryuu314 wrote: How do you play against a Sion as Pantheon? At early levels you can burst his shield easily with 1 spear 1 auto, but as he gets more levels, it's gets harder to bust it. Also, the guy I was playing was holding on to his stun until his shield went down, so if I tried to jump him after his shield popped to do damage, he'd just stun me and run. I have to check, but I think he was maxing his stun/leveling shield/stun evenly so taking the stun damage+minion aggro was pretty painful.
Loci and I used to think this was Pantheon's worst matchup. It sucks really hard after a little while, but early it's ezpz. I think one of the keys to not sucking ass in the matchup is to save your W until after he stuns you so that you can re-engage when he puts his shit on CD, as that's the only time you can do meaningful damage to a Sion.
On January 09 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote: Why are you arguing over pant vs gp when smash himself said he can just farm as gp against a pant.
On January 06 2012 05:04 Mogwai wrote: It's funny, but even though I routinely CP GPs with Pantheon, I don't mind when I pick GP and the opponents pick Panth. Gear up dem Armor Quints, open cloth and just sit back and parley creeps. The thing that makes GP vs. Pantheon fine IMO is that oranges fuck up Pantheon's kill combos and GP's permaslow is basically an instant kill on Pantheon when you get a jungle gank vs. an aggressively positioned Pantheon.
meh, Shikyo's mostly whining, so I'd suggest mostly ignoring him. he considers up 50 CS and a kill advantage not a successful Pantheon game, so there's really nothing to talk to him about with regards to that. I swear, no one knows how the fuck to play Pantheon later in the game, everyone just thinks they're fucking akali 2.0 and dives the whole opposing team onto the opposing carry, no one knows how to use HSS zoning to protect a carry.
interestingly though, I was talking to Neo a few days ago and he was talking about how most GPs consider W a 1-point wonder, which was really surprising to me because even if I'm aggressively dominating a lane with GP, I still max W after Q. GP's W scaling is retarded, with +70 heal, -1 CD, and no change to the mana per level. Whenever I'm having trouble on a lane with GP, I just max W and spam it and NPNP. Now, this doesn't really work if you open regrowth vs. Pantheon, but Armor Quints + Seals building cloth -> wriggle's + ninja tabi -> double gold/10 lets me routinely get my farm as GP vs. Pantheon.
Thanks for the insight, as always really appreciated.
While the guide focuses on an "AD caster" style of straight damage and more damage, at what point do you consider tanky dps items like Atmog's or Fromallet? Or is it like Riven, where it's better just to ignore your defense and try to hit harder? Not that Pants has a scaling AD shield, but a similar concept.
Basically, is there any point in a game where you think "man, I'm behind, and just GA isn't going to cover it"?
On January 10 2012 06:40 Requizen wrote: While the guide focuses on an "AD caster" style of straight damage and more damage, at what point do you consider tanky dps items like Atmog's or Fromallet? Or is it like Riven, where it's better just to ignore your defense and try to hit harder? Not that Pants has a scaling AD shield, but a similar concept.
Basically, is there any point in a game where you think "man, I'm behind, and just GA isn't going to cover it"?
mmm, not really. Pantheon is so forgettable as a Tanky DPS that if you find yourself making that sort of concession in your build, you're probably screwed anyway. if I'm behind, faster Last Whisper -> Aegis -> BT and just camp the back of teamfights and try to zone off your ranged DPS with HSS.
On January 10 2012 06:40 Requizen wrote: While the guide focuses on an "AD caster" style of straight damage and more damage, at what point do you consider tanky dps items like Atmog's or Fromallet? Or is it like Riven, where it's better just to ignore your defense and try to hit harder? Not that Pants has a scaling AD shield, but a similar concept.
Basically, is there any point in a game where you think "man, I'm behind, and just GA isn't going to cover it"?
mmm, not really. Pantheon is so forgettable as a Tanky DPS that if you find yourself making that sort of concession in your build, you're probably screwed anyway. if I'm behind, faster Last Whisper -> Aegis -> BT and just camp the back of teamfights and try to zone off your ranged DPS with HSS.
So is that kind of your late-game plan? Play him not so much as a dps anymore, but as a peeler and clean-up killer? Seems pretty right to me, though I imagine he's still pretty strong 1v1 later on.
he's strong 1v1 later on, but I think the biggest buff Pantheon's gotten over the past year was the HSS CD reduction. With HSS at it's current CD, you can throw out HSS every 4-5 seconds in areas where the opposing team is trying to be in order to murder your other high priority targets. I mean, he's still DPS, it's not like he peels via CC very well, it's just about positioning yourself in the places where you'll be able to utilize his strongest teamfighting DPS (HSS) effectively without blowing up.
I find that the moment where I start to fall off isn't when people survive my burst (since cds are low anyway and he trades like a boss), but when they've built enough damage to start bursting me. Panth has a sick damage output (2 charged BT+LW = ~1300 damage HSS at level 18) but there's a moment where you'll stop doing one-shots, and then your squishy nature makes it so any burster/dps-er able to survive it even with 200 hp will just burst you before you can finish them off. That's when I switch to defensive/split push mode, personnally (but I'm still a noob because it takes me a death to realize they've passed the threshold ).
Sometimes when I'm doing fine I feel after BT+bruta I'm doing enough damage to fuck up their squishies, I just build atma+negatron to not blow up afterwards. If the game goes even longer I may pick up mallet later. I just hate being squishy. Basically this is situations where ur damage is already fine. If you're in a situation where u feel you don't have enough damage to blow their squishies, you're screwed as pantheon anyways no matter what you do.
But I've never gone negative in KDA since I picked pantheon last week because even though I'm terrible, other people are even worse.
Also ignite exhaust panth best panth, lvl1 always kill never not kill.
After watching Smash go Panth for about a week, I would say the biggest difference between him and other (average) Panth is how he utilizes HSS in lane for harass and in team fights as a zoning mechanism for his carries. It's ridiculous how much damage Smash can output.
Panth is not all about QWEQ combo. That's like the most basic tactic Panth has.
Man I was reading up on the Panth v Morde matchup and like the person who originally had that problem, I'm a baddie who doesn't see how you win when Morde comes to lane with cloth+5. Sure you can spear him when his shield is down but as soon as he gets W his shield is never down. You can't harass with only shield so obviously you get a few autoattacks in here and there, but then you draw minion aggro from tons of minions. Your last hitting suffers from not being able to stand in the creeps due to fear of E harass and the minion wave builds up, further making harass difficult for fear of eating a billion minion autoattacks. Ugh.
In theory I get how it's supposed to work from reading what you guys wrote, but I can't see it. Is Dblade start the answer with just insane level 1 harass to throw him off of stuff right away or you're screwed...? I really have to practice this...
Aren't Morde's first few levels ridiculous in terms of healt-cost-to-shield-generation if he tries to use his spells to fend you off anyway? I only played him on free weeks and not since his recent buffs/nerfs, but level 1 harass seemed pretty annoying to him I recall.
Also, time zones not letting me watch Smash. My thoughts were that lane phase generally doesn't last long after the point where your AD's good enough that HSS outdamages Spearshot, so Q harass always better. But Q's unavoidable if they go for the last hit so they might as hell eat it, while they can avoid HSS if they back off. Is there some kind of psychological twist like that in HSS harass, or am I just reading too much into things?
On January 10 2012 18:27 Alaric wrote: Also, time zones not letting me watch Smash. My thoughts were that lane phase generally doesn't last long after the point where your AD's good enough that HSS outdamages Spearshot, so Q harass always better. But Q's unavoidable if they go the last hit so they might as hell eat it, while they can avoid HSS if they back off. Is there some kind of psychological twist like that in HSS harass, or am I just reading too much into things?
I run MRegen/lvl blues and 7 in Utility. With this setup, it's practically impossible to run OOM from level 5/6 onwards. That being said, there will be times where your Q is on CD, you autoattacked them after they walked up for a last hit and you HSS onto them, simply because you can. It's sort of hard to explain how Smash does it and I'm still trying to figure out what exactly it is that he does so much better, but as Neo said, there's something about his use of HSS that puts him on a whole nother level than other Panths. I'd suggest to check out the VoD he provided and browse his channel a little more, there's a couple of Panth games.
On January 10 2012 15:39 NeoIllusions wrote: After watching Smash go Panth for about a week, I would say the biggest difference between him and other (average) Panth is how he utilizes HSS in lane for harass and in team fights as a zoning mechanism for his carries. It's ridiculous how much damage Smash can output.
Panth is not all about QWEQ combo. That's like the most basic tactic Panth has.
I have fuck no idea at all how this should look like properly. I want to know about it. For the games I play panth I'm basicly forcing a 4n5 for 10-15minutes and the game has to be won at that point. Using W as a repositioning skill instead of a gapcloser in teamfights already has helped me there a LOT, but I'm pretty damn sure there must be way more potential.
Since I keep missing your streams smash... VOD pretty please? :>
Edit: Just rewatched the vod vs tryn... is your plan more to stick close to the ad/ap carry, HSS their frontline, wait for an opening -> dive / force their carry out? When is which your priority?
Like, sometimes you try to flank their carries but then decide to W on their frontline and HSS them. I think I'm just not getting your decision making in teamfights. =/
On January 10 2012 15:39 NeoIllusions wrote: After watching Smash go Panth for about a week, I would say the biggest difference between him and other (average) Panth is how he utilizes HSS in lane for harass and in team fights as a zoning mechanism for his carries. It's ridiculous how much damage Smash can output.
Panth is not all about QWEQ combo. That's like the most basic tactic Panth has.
I have fuck no idea at all how this should look like properly. I want to know about it. For the games I play panth I'm basicly forcing a 4n5 for 10-15minutes and the game has to be won at that point. Using W as a repositioning skill instead of a gapcloser in teamfights already has helped me there a LOT, but I'm pretty damn sure there must be way more potential.
Since I keep missing your streams smash... VOD pretty please? :>
While I can't comment on his teamfight strategy as I don't entirely grasp that myself, I'd suggest you check out this video of him playing against Riven. Actually, 2 Rivens. While those might not be perfect games, I think they show some brilliant use of HSS in order to abuse Riven's (mis)positioning in lane. I spent my last night browsing through his channel (fuck exams huehue) and it really helped me improve my laning phase a lot.
On January 10 2012 15:39 NeoIllusions wrote: After watching Smash go Panth for about a week, I would say the biggest difference between him and other (average) Panth is how he utilizes HSS in lane for harass and in team fights as a zoning mechanism for his carries. It's ridiculous how much damage Smash can output.
Panth is not all about QWEQ combo. That's like the most basic tactic Panth has.
Are they VODs on that ? Damn americans, streaming only when I sleep :'( Nevermind found all of it. Btw I see so many fail Panth today... Free week is sad :/
I'm planning on playing a lot less this week, as I'm on tilt due to a string of bad luck and just generally hating the direction that the new jungle took the game.
On January 10 2012 18:12 WaveofShadow wrote: Man I was reading up on the Panth v Morde matchup and like the person who originally had that problem, I'm a baddie who doesn't see how you win when Morde comes to lane with cloth+5. Sure you can spear him when his shield is down but as soon as he gets W his shield is never down. You can't harass with only shield so obviously you get a few autoattacks in here and there, but then you draw minion aggro from tons of minions. Your last hitting suffers from not being able to stand in the creeps due to fear of E harass and the minion wave builds up, further making harass difficult for fear of eating a billion minion autoattacks. Ugh.
In theory I get how it's supposed to work from reading what you guys wrote, but I can't see it. Is Dblade start the answer with just insane level 1 harass to throw him off of stuff right away or you're screwed...? I really have to practice this...
You got it right pretty much. For Morde's first few lvls, I'd say lvls 1~4 his skills costs are really high while shield generation is quite low. In those levels, you absolutely need to get a good commanding leading and try force him back at least once. Once Morde hits lvl 5 with 3 levels in one skill, he can start to trade pretty well if you don't have an exp/item lead on him.
alright, so after taking a close look at my recent games, don't play Pantheon top lane anymore unless your jungler is someone you trust. junglers just lane camp, Panthoen's an easy target for lane camping. The only way to win with Pantheon now is if your jungler is prepared to early countergank the inevitable early gank.
re: Morde, assuming you're not about to get jumped by a level 2 udyr who just stole your red buff, you need to make sure Morde has to fight you before he gets anywhere near the creep wave to charge his shield. sadly, you are always about to get jumped by a level udyr who just stole your red buff, so you should've just picked a laner who can sit on his tower and then just come forward to 1-shot creepwaves and then dominate late game.
been jungling panth since he is on free week now. running 21/9/0 and opening vamp sceptor. it feels like if my team refuses to give me serious help on blue i have to back at lvl 2 and buy regrowth, is there anything i can do to be less at the mercy of retards?
On January 11 2012 04:25 turdburgler wrote: been jungling panth since he is on free week now. running 21/9/0 and opening vamp sceptor. it feels like if my team refuses to give me serious help on blue i have to back at lvl 2 and buy regrowth, is there anything i can do to be less at the mercy of retards?
vamp scepter is a stupid opening. open boots + 3 or cloth + 5 and then camp lanes. Pantheon is actually a perfect new jungler, which is to say he camps lanes really well.
On January 10 2012 15:39 NeoIllusions wrote: After watching Smash go Panth for about a week, I would say the biggest difference between him and other (average) Panth is how he utilizes HSS in lane for harass and in team fights as a zoning mechanism for his carries. It's ridiculous how much damage Smash can output.
Panth is not all about QWEQ combo. That's like the most basic tactic Panth has.
I have fuck no idea at all how this should look like properly. I want to know about it. For the games I play panth I'm basicly forcing a 4n5 for 10-15minutes and the game has to be won at that point. Using W as a repositioning skill instead of a gapcloser in teamfights already has helped me there a LOT, but I'm pretty damn sure there must be way more potential.
Since I keep missing your streams smash... VOD pretty please? :>
While I can't comment on his teamfight strategy as I don't entirely grasp that myself, I'd suggest you check out this video of him playing against Riven. Actually, 2 Rivens. While those might not be perfect games, I think they show some brilliant use of HSS in order to abuse Riven's (mis)positioning in lane. I spent my last night browsing through his channel (fuck exams huehue) and it really helped me improve my laning phase a lot.
When I watched that VOD I was like WTF IS HE TALKING ABOUT HE USES HSS JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE ... then he starts abusing that when the riven moves to cs she can a) get the cs and eat a full combo b) eat like 70% of a HSS while running back from it or c) commit to the fight and lose.
After watching that VOD, I can see why any Panth would hate that faggot bearbirdman who keeps coming to gank.
When I watched that VOD I was like WTF IS HE TALKING ABOUT HE USES HSS JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE ... then he starts abusing that when the riven moves to cs she can a) get the cs and eat a full combo b) eat like 70% of a HSS while running back from it or c) commit to the fight and lose
Not in stun range to make them eat HSS = no problem for those pro panths
well it's kinda a damn shame I didn't record my last game. was a shitty shitty start where an exhaust/ignite trynd got some lucky breaks on the level 1 fight and fucked me up for first blood. got raped up and down the lane, came into midgame a tower and a half and 20-30 CS down (even in kills, both 3/1, 1 kill on each other in lane, my extra kills on 1 good ult gank bot, his on invading our jungle), but then managed to legitimately carry my team through midgame by zoning trynd and GP off of my graves in teamfights. pretty much a perfect instructional game of how to play Pantheon effectively in teamfights and a prime example of when to build aegis on Panth, and I wasn't streaming... oh well.
On January 11 2012 13:46 Mogwai wrote: well it's kinda a damn shame I didn't record my last game. was a shitty shitty start where an exhaust/ignite trynd got some lucky breaks on the level 1 fight and fucked me up for first blood. got raped up and down the lane, came into midgame a tower and a half and 20-30 CS down (even in kills, both 3/1, 1 kill on each other in lane, my extra kills on 1 good ult gank bot, his on invading our jungle), but then managed to legitimately carry my team through midgame by zoning trynd and GP off of my graves in teamfights. pretty much a perfect instructional game of how to play Pantheon effectively in teamfights and a prime example of when to build aegis on Panth, and I wasn't streaming... oh well.
dont worry, we're all firm believers in the patented 'give first blood and end up winning anyways' smash gizbro strategy huehuehue
On January 11 2012 13:46 Mogwai wrote: well it's kinda a damn shame I didn't record my last game. was a shitty shitty start where an exhaust/ignite trynd got some lucky breaks on the level 1 fight and fucked me up for first blood. got raped up and down the lane, came into midgame a tower and a half and 20-30 CS down (even in kills, both 3/1, 1 kill on each other in lane, my extra kills on 1 good ult gank bot, his on invading our jungle), but then managed to legitimately carry my team through midgame by zoning trynd and GP off of my graves in teamfights. pretty much a perfect instructional game of how to play Pantheon effectively in teamfights and a prime example of when to build aegis on Panth, and I wasn't streaming... oh well.
you should run lolreplay for times like these! I'd really enjoy watching that game
On January 11 2012 13:46 Mogwai wrote: well it's kinda a damn shame I didn't record my last game. was a shitty shitty start where an exhaust/ignite trynd got some lucky breaks on the level 1 fight and fucked me up for first blood. got raped up and down the lane, came into midgame a tower and a half and 20-30 CS down (even in kills, both 3/1, 1 kill on each other in lane, my extra kills on 1 good ult gank bot, his on invading our jungle), but then managed to legitimately carry my team through midgame by zoning trynd and GP off of my graves in teamfights. pretty much a perfect instructional game of how to play Pantheon effectively in teamfights and a prime example of when to build aegis on Panth, and I wasn't streaming... oh well.
I am a believer! Friend wanted to play some normals, and i thought i would try mantheon. And omg that game, i have never had so much fun. Bought him instantly, and i think that i know what champ to practice next.
On January 11 2012 13:46 Mogwai wrote: well it's kinda a damn shame I didn't record my last game. was a shitty shitty start where an exhaust/ignite trynd got some lucky breaks on the level 1 fight and fucked me up for first blood. got raped up and down the lane, came into midgame a tower and a half and 20-30 CS down (even in kills, both 3/1, 1 kill on each other in lane, my extra kills on 1 good ult gank bot, his on invading our jungle), but then managed to legitimately carry my team through midgame by zoning trynd and GP off of my graves in teamfights. pretty much a perfect instructional game of how to play Pantheon effectively in teamfights and a prime example of when to build aegis on Panth, and I wasn't streaming... oh well.
pics/vids + detailed play by play breakdown of item choices and positioning decisions OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
On January 11 2012 13:46 Mogwai wrote: well it's kinda a damn shame I didn't record my last game. was a shitty shitty start where an exhaust/ignite trynd got some lucky breaks on the level 1 fight and fucked me up for first blood. got raped up and down the lane, came into midgame a tower and a half and 20-30 CS down (even in kills, both 3/1, 1 kill on each other in lane, my extra kills on 1 good ult gank bot, his on invading our jungle), but then managed to legitimately carry my team through midgame by zoning trynd and GP off of my graves in teamfights. pretty much a perfect instructional game of how to play Pantheon effectively in teamfights and a prime example of when to build aegis on Panth, and I wasn't streaming... oh well.
pics/vids + detailed play by play breakdown of item choices and positioning decisions OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
yeah
I'll just get LoL replay so that I can deal with this issue in the future.
here's my recolection of the game:
boots + 3 pots opening, get FBed by crits when my passive is down and non-crits while my passive is up + earlier level 2 due to him taking small gols + ignite + exhaust being gay as balls . get zoned pretty badly (not really off of XP, mostly just CS) while spaming consumables and getting stuck on 1 dblade until my nocturne hits level 6 when we manage to set up a gank that trades noct for trynd. After we get that kill, I'm down 30 cs and I'm 1/1 to Trynd's 2/1. After pushing my wave, I back and buy consumables, my 2nd dblade and ninja tabi (I've been neglecting ninja tabi on Pantheon too much, will write more about them later).
at this point, my wave is pushed to his tower and I see 2 1/2 HP opponents at bot lane, so I head bot and ult behind their soraka + cait, which nets me 2 kills and 2 assists for graves + ali, then we take bot tower, followed by dragon. In the meantime, Trynd takes first top tower and 1/2 of the inner top tower while getting significantly further up in CS on me. I back for brutalizer and then go top to stop the push. At this point, Fizz + noct go to our blue and facecheck into trynd + GP for a kill on nocturne before I can even respond.
At this point, we're down by a decent margin. We're tired on towers, up 1 dragon, down 8/12 in terms of kills and accross the board down in CS by a fair bit. From here I have less specific recolections of the gameflow, but my item build was BT -> LW -> Aegis -> GA -> Ghostblade and my general teamfighting strategy was to stay off to the side of graves and position my HSS as such:
& ........ KEY >@ ..... & = Bad guys (GP, Annie, Tynd) * = Good guy (Graves) * ......... @ = #1 pro (Pant, so stronk and manly) > = HSS AoE
This essentially forced their divers to either walk through my HSS channels or veer off to the side to go for me, where graves could get potshots for free while staying sufficiently far from their AoE effects.
For midgame fights, they chose to ignore me and go for graves. This led to me going from 3/1/0 -> 11/2/7 over the course of midgame fights as I would routinely get 3+ multi-target HSS channels off per fight. As they caught on to the fact that I was dealing problematic amounts of damage, they chose to start focusing me (note: this is roughly when I decided to work on my GA), which effectively pulled them off of Graves, at which point he never died again and even though they were able to drop me each fight, it came at the cost of bunching up for Graves' AoE. End score: 11/7/15 (roughly, +/- 1 on each of those stats, can't remember perfectly), 42 minute win. It's the last game on my account, so you could get final build and score from my match history.
Pantheon #1 gold earned, #1 takedowns in a 40 minute game where he got crushed in lane. Pantheon useless after 20-25 minutes, huehuehue.
This is undoubtedly the best pantheon resource in existence. Awesome job Smash, and everyone else (even the ppl who ask questions for smash to answer).
2 from 2 so far... lost lane first game against ignite exhaust volibear, but owned midgame hard with ult ganks. 2nd game, got to crush a singed in lane and own with ult ganks. So much fun to play this champ. Thanks heaps to smash for making me feel like im not completely derping with him.
On January 12 2012 16:16 Perplex wrote: so if the other team first picks pantheon.. whats a good response to that? Can udyr win?
As Smash already said, GP maxing W and starting cloth+5 (+armor quints) makes laning vs panth a breeze.
However, your team will most likely rage at you since Panth hardcounters GP. Or so I heard. I'm in the process of grinding my way back from 1300 (don't ask, lol.) and around 1500 people seem to assume that Panth counters GP and Udyr counters Panth. Also Swain and Ryze get picked as "hardcounters" against mah panth. Don't ask. Easy wins at dat elo cause people can't deal with snowballs at all.
Edit: Actually the REAL counterpick to panth is imo the jungle. When I want to FP panth I make sure Rammus/Shaco/Lee and maybe even Maokai get banned. In case a strong jungle pick gets through and you somehow ended up with Panth top anyway, asking your support for a lvl 1 ward top is fucking huge.
On January 12 2012 16:16 Perplex wrote: so if the other team first picks pantheon.. whats a good response to that? Can udyr win?
Udyr can do quite well, but the first few levels are rocky; same with Yorick. If you want a hard counter, Malphite and Cho stacking armor hard counters Pantheon. Sion is also a really strong matchup against Pantheon. GP and Riven can do okay against Panth with cloth+5pot and armor runes if they max heal and shield respectively. The strongest counter to Panth is a good jungler that camps his lane. If Panth can't fuck the other guy over, a lot of his potential is wasted.
As others have mentioned, strong junglers screw panth over. As panth, you want to be aggressive, and having a jungler with oracles really fucks with that.
On January 13 2012 10:47 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: I think malph works if he has more armor or panth doesn't follow up with his trades and they just poke each other. Otherwise I'm not too sure.
Any reason why malphite works?
Granite Shield negates a lot of Pantheon's harass, Q is very good gank assistance, W is an armor steroid. Malphite tends to stack lots of armor.
Like, literally everything about Malphite is a direct counter to Pantheon. Shard reduces ms, so Pantheon's aggressive zoning means 100% gank rate. W gives Malphite the upper hand in creep trades. Ground Slam shuts auto-attacks down completely, meaning less aegis procs and less lifesteal and less damage output. Malphite's ult is an aoe knockup gapcloser nuke while Pantheon's can't be cast easily in lane and usually does nothing 1v1. Everything about this matchup is just so in Malphite's favor that it's unfair.
Also yeah, as far as fun goes, Pantheon is easily the most fun champ in the whole game right now. You just feel so stupidly stronk and didn't afraid of anything. Start 8-0 in the first 10 minutes and start towerdiving bases at level 9. Fuck playing to win, I just play to kill people in SUPER DEEP spots.
I'm not sure that I really agree with the rush Last Whisper strategy to counter armor stackers. By the time you actually finish Last Whisper you're starting to get to the stage where you could a: lose your tower and no longer have a real 1v1 scenario or b: have a teamfight in which your lane opponent is not the person you want to be attacking. Your damage against squishies (your preferred targets at that stage of the game) is significantly hampered by Last Whisper first instead of Brutalizer -> Bloodthirster, and to be honest even with the Last Whisper you will still have a tough time actually killing the armor stacker.
I feel like instead of trying to specifically counter your lane opponent's build at the expense of your damage against all other targets, you're better off sticking with a more generalized approach, just farming and switching lanes if at all possible.
Have you actually had much success Smash at going LW against someone spamming armor against you?
I just played a game as Malphite against Pantheon and he rushed Last Whisper after boots but it did him no good, his damage was still pretty bad against me, but on top of that he wasn't much of a threat to our Caitlyn either... For reference I went Cloth+5, Chain Vest, Boots1, Glacial, Frozen Heart -> Merc's.
On January 13 2012 13:24 Alzadar wrote: I'm not sure that I really agree with the rush Last Whisper strategy to counter armor stackers. By the time you actually finish Last Whisper you're starting to get to the stage where you could a: lose your tower and no longer have a real 1v1 scenario or b: have a teamfight in which your lane opponent is not the person you want to be attacking. Your damage against squishies (your preferred targets at that stage of the game) is significantly hampered by Last Whisper first instead of Brutalizer -> Bloodthirster, and to be honest even with the Last Whisper you will still have a tough time actually killing the armor stacker.
I feel like instead of trying to specifically counter your lane opponent's build at the expense of your damage against all other targets, you're better off sticking with a more generalized approach, just farming and switching lanes if at all possible.
Have you actually had much success Smash at going LW against someone spamming armor against you?
I just played a game as Malphite against Pantheon and he rushed Last Whisper after boots but it did him no good, his damage was still pretty bad against me, but on top of that he wasn't much of a threat to our Caitlyn either... For reference I went Cloth+5, Chain Vest, Boots1, Glacial, Frozen Heart -> Merc's.
Can you reference me the post where the rush LW strat was originally espoused? I didn't see it in the discussion recently and I want a refresher.
On January 13 2012 13:24 Alzadar wrote: I'm not sure that I really agree with the rush Last Whisper strategy to counter armor stackers. By the time you actually finish Last Whisper you're starting to get to the stage where you could a: lose your tower and no longer have a real 1v1 scenario or b: have a teamfight in which your lane opponent is not the person you want to be attacking. Your damage against squishies (your preferred targets at that stage of the game) is significantly hampered by Last Whisper first instead of Brutalizer -> Bloodthirster, and to be honest even with the Last Whisper you will still have a tough time actually killing the armor stacker.
I feel like instead of trying to specifically counter your lane opponent's build at the expense of your damage against all other targets, you're better off sticking with a more generalized approach, just farming and switching lanes if at all possible.
Have you actually had much success Smash at going LW against someone spamming armor against you?
I just played a game as Malphite against Pantheon and he rushed Last Whisper after boots but it did him no good, his damage was still pretty bad against me, but on top of that he wasn't much of a threat to our Caitlyn either... For reference I went Cloth+5, Chain Vest, Boots1, Glacial, Frozen Heart -> Merc's.
there was this one game where I was, like, not really drunk, but kinda buzzed and I started tilting when I got CPed with a Malphite. dblades, bruta, lw, raped him six ways from sunday NPNP. *shrug* lw is good anyway, I can't see a reason you wouldn't get it vs. FH rush Cho/Malphite since if you don't, you'll just get ignored and raped, but at least with LW rush you can deal damage to them.
I just downloaded the game and Pantheon looks cool. Should I play him or should I be using a more noob friendly character.
As an aside: where is the best Noob guide to help me better understand the game faster? I was hoping TL would have one but I havent been able to find it.
I think LoL can be a fun kind of game to unwind with
Since I remember how daunting IP costs seemed when I first started playing, especially because saving up to buy your runes is extremely IP heavy, I'd recommend you take advantage of the free rotation champs as much as you can. You have a lot of fun learning a variety of champs this way. But there are plenty of good champs in the 450 and 1350 range. I definitely recommend picking up Sivir, Soraka, and Ryze as they are all great champs at the lowest cost.
Get Alistar and Tristana for free through their youtube/facebook.
I actually have to remember to auto with Pantheon >.> I played a few games and got so many kills with just QWEQ that I forgot his autoattacks actually do a fuckton of damage since you're building AD.
Me too - it's really easy to forget, particularly as you're the kind of champ who needs to be jinking around. Also, late game with those bloodthirsters, autoattacks can help keep you alive through the lifesteal.
On January 13 2012 13:24 Alzadar wrote: I'm not sure that I really agree with the rush Last Whisper strategy to counter armor stackers. By the time you actually finish Last Whisper you're starting to get to the stage where you could a: lose your tower and no longer have a real 1v1 scenario or b: have a teamfight in which your lane opponent is not the person you want to be attacking. Your damage against squishies (your preferred targets at that stage of the game) is significantly hampered by Last Whisper first instead of Brutalizer -> Bloodthirster, and to be honest even with the Last Whisper you will still have a tough time actually killing the armor stacker.
I feel like instead of trying to specifically counter your lane opponent's build at the expense of your damage against all other targets, you're better off sticking with a more generalized approach, just farming and switching lanes if at all possible.
Have you actually had much success Smash at going LW against someone spamming armor against you?
I just played a game as Malphite against Pantheon and he rushed Last Whisper after boots but it did him no good, his damage was still pretty bad against me, but on top of that he wasn't much of a threat to our Caitlyn either... For reference I went Cloth+5, Chain Vest, Boots1, Glacial, Frozen Heart -> Merc's.
there was this one game where I was, like, not really drunk, but kinda buzzed and I started tilting when I got CPed with a Malphite. dblades, bruta, lw, raped him six ways from sunday NPNP. *shrug* lw is good anyway, I can't see a reason you wouldn't get it vs. FH rush Cho/Malphite since if you don't, you'll just get ignored and raped, but at least with LW rush you can deal damage to them.
Just did a bit of actual math. Comparing DBlade + LW + 2xLongsword with DBlade + Brutalizer + BF Sword (equal cost), the LW outperforms the other in Spear damage at only 60 armor, which is pretty low.
But if you start talking about a stacked DBlade + Bloodthirster (stacked) + Brutalizer vs DBlade + LW + BF Sword + Vamp (equal cost)... Bloodthirster is better even if the target has 120 armor.
Then if you look at HSS, things swing heavily in favour of Bloodthirster: better even at 200+ armor. It's because of the mad AD ratio on it.
It's definitely an interesting issue, but seeing as later in the game HSS becomes more and more your primary source of damage, I think BT should almost always come before LW.
On January 13 2012 13:24 Alzadar wrote: I'm not sure that I really agree with the rush Last Whisper strategy to counter armor stackers. By the time you actually finish Last Whisper you're starting to get to the stage where you could a: lose your tower and no longer have a real 1v1 scenario or b: have a teamfight in which your lane opponent is not the person you want to be attacking. Your damage against squishies (your preferred targets at that stage of the game) is significantly hampered by Last Whisper first instead of Brutalizer -> Bloodthirster, and to be honest even with the Last Whisper you will still have a tough time actually killing the armor stacker.
I feel like instead of trying to specifically counter your lane opponent's build at the expense of your damage against all other targets, you're better off sticking with a more generalized approach, just farming and switching lanes if at all possible.
Have you actually had much success Smash at going LW against someone spamming armor against you?
I just played a game as Malphite against Pantheon and he rushed Last Whisper after boots but it did him no good, his damage was still pretty bad against me, but on top of that he wasn't much of a threat to our Caitlyn either... For reference I went Cloth+5, Chain Vest, Boots1, Glacial, Frozen Heart -> Merc's.
there was this one game where I was, like, not really drunk, but kinda buzzed and I started tilting when I got CPed with a Malphite. dblades, bruta, lw, raped him six ways from sunday NPNP. *shrug* lw is good anyway, I can't see a reason you wouldn't get it vs. FH rush Cho/Malphite since if you don't, you'll just get ignored and raped, but at least with LW rush you can deal damage to them.
Just did a bit of actual math. Comparing DBlade + LW + 2xLongsword with DBlade + Brutalizer + BF Sword (equal cost), the LW outperforms the other in Spear damage at only 60 armor, which is pretty low.
But if you start talking about a stacked DBlade + Bloodthirster (stacked) + Brutalizer vs DBlade + LW + BF Sword + Vamp (equal cost)... Bloodthirster is better even if the target has 120 armor.
Then if you look at HSS, things swing heavily in favour of Bloodthirster: better even at 200+ armor. It's because of the mad AD ratio on it.
It's definitely an interesting issue, but seeing as later in the game HSS becomes more and more your primary source of damage, I think BT should almost always come before LW.
Wait. If BT is worse early and better late, shouldn't LW come first?
No. LW is better before you finish + charge the Bloodthirster. The Bloodthirster beats the LW once completed, even against heavily armored targets. Against low armored targets it's completely lopsided, BT deals 30% more damage.
Basically there's a big power dip where you spend 1350 gold for only 15 AD (building the BT out of BF). The Bloodthirster needs stacks to be powerful, but once you get them it beats any other option.
On January 16 2012 15:28 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Hey guys... does anyone have any proof that last whisper works with his spear? Because I have a feeling it doesn't.
All penetration, flat or percent, works with autoattacks and skills depending on the damage type. All sources of physical damage will benefit from armor penetration. As such, Pantheon's Q, E, and autoattacks all work with Last Whisper. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_penetration
I'm testing it right now. I don't think it works. 4 long swords vs last whisper damage. One more trial. Ok I think I was wrong. At level 5 q my pantheon did 266 damage with last whisper vs red lizard. It did 254 damage vs lizard with 4 long swords.
o_O armor pen works on all physical damage... basic game mechanics.
also, vs. swain, post 6 is rough, but pre 6 you stick it in his pooper in my experience. Panth not like most melee, you can just open boots and get a bunch of free spears on swain.
Panth is my favorite champ even before reading this guide. After reading this guide, I feel like I've improved dramatically and face-rolling top now. But I just played vs a Morde that completely stumped me.
It's hard to get a Q in without being in range of his E. And it feels like throwing Q's at a shielded Morde is just wasting mana. His E harass at tower is also difficult to avoid and he can get you low enough to just use R / Ignite at a distance.
Also: vs a Skarner it just seems like a free farm-fest until Skarner gets beefy enough to tower dive you until you die.
Should I even waste my W E combo (or just E at all)? It seems like it doesn't do as much damage as the two hits or so you could've done during the channel. Plus it just kills minions / pushes so you're more open for a gank.
On January 16 2012 17:36 jacosajh wrote: What do you do vs Morde?
Panth is my favorite champ even before reading this guide. After reading this guide, I feel like I've improved dramatically and face-rolling top now. But I just played vs a Morde that completely stumped me.
It's hard to get a Q in without being in range of his E. And it feels like throwing Q's at a shielded Morde is just wasting mana. His E harass at tower is also difficult to avoid and he can get you low enough to just use R / Ignite at a distance.
Also: vs a Skarner it just seems like a free farm-fest until Skarner gets beefy enough to tower dive you until you die.
Should I even waste my W E combo (or just E at all)? It seems like it doesn't do as much damage as the two hits or so you could've done during the channel. Plus it just kills minions / pushes so you're more open for a gank.
Check page 23/24, no need to repeat the entire discussion on Morde. - Well played you rape him hard.
Skarner gets raped early pretty damn hard. He cant lasthit without going into melee range and that's when he hits autos+spears or E. Dno how you can call that freefarm.
On January 16 2012 15:53 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: I'm testing it right now. I don't think it works. 4 long swords vs last whisper damage. One more trial. Ok I think I was wrong. At level 5 q my pantheon did 266 damage with last whisper vs red lizard. It did 254 damage vs lizard with 4 long swords.
Are you also running armor pen masteries, marks or glyphs? Flat pen occurs before % pen, and jungle monsters have low armor.
HAHAHAHaha... ! Udyr just died against Swain and Ashe, almost killing them, + Soraka that retreated when my engage almost killed her and forced her ult, so with Zilean gone that we couldn't save from Lee Sin, who we killed in retaliation along with Garen who tought his ult would kill my 50% hp 140 MRes, that left both teams as Swain with blue, Ashe, both crippled, and Soraka, hiding behind their 2nd bot tower and considering abandoning it to go heal themselves, facing 500 hp Pantheon, squishy but scaringly bursty TF, and ult-less wounded Alistar. What do?
Mandrop right behind those fuckers and their tower to cut their escape, obviously! Then you get to tank some tower hits while you stun Swain on arrival, get Ashe but not him with HSS, and exhibit your finisher with a spear to Bird's face, while Ali and TF use your aggro-ing of the tower to kill Soraka for the ace then get back to safety. All in all, that was well worth your heroic sacrifice, forfaiting your... Guardian Angel buff to finish the game. Fuck yeah!
Always tower dive, never die.
I had to lane against Garen but he was disconnected at the start of the game, LS started cloth+5 and killed his golems, the xp advantage allowing him to be a real bully till I reached level 3. I was able to pull though after that, then Garen reconnected and LS went back to the jungle. I'm still curious tho, how does Pantheon fare against Garen? If you don't get too close you should be able to stall the ms buff on his Q or just block it (I don't think it blocks the silence tho?), and he can't try to zone you by standing in the creep wave because of Q harass. But if he starts armor and farms his bonus fast, can't he pretty much ignore you if he also uses W whenever you commit to a trade?
Also, I'm tired of always using tho in my sentences (see above ). Another word I could use w/o resorting to 'on the other hand', 'whereas' and that kind of stuff?
On January 17 2012 05:30 Alaric wrote: HAHAHAHaha... ! Udyr just died against Swain and Ashe, almost killing them, + Soraka that retreated when my engage almost killed her and forced her ult, so with Zilean gone that we couldn't save from Lee Sin, who we killed in retaliation along with Garen who tought his ult would kill my 50% hp 140 MRes, that left both teams as Swain with blue, Ashe, both crippled, and Soraka, hiding behind their 2nd bot tower and considering abandoning it to go heal themselves, facing 500 hp Pantheon, squishy but scaringly bursty TF, and ult-less wounded Alistar. What do?
Mandrop right behind those fuckers and their tower to cut their escape, obviously! Then you get to tank some tower hits while you stun Swain on arrival, get Ashe but not him with HSS, and exhibit your finisher with a spear to Bird's face, while Ali and TF use your aggro-ing of the tower to kill Soraka for the ace then get back to safety. All in all, that was well worth your heroic sacrifice, forfaiting your... Guardian Angel buff to finish the game. Fuck yeah!
Always tower dive, never die.
I had to lane against Garen but he was disconnected at the start of the game, LS started cloth+5 and killed his golems, the xp advantage allowing him to be a real bully till I reached level 3. I was able to pull though after that, then Garen reconnected and LS went back to the jungle. I'm still curious tho, how does Pantheon fare against Garen? If you don't get too close you should be able to stall the ms buff on his Q or just block it (I don't think it blocks the silence tho?), and he can't try to zone you by standing in the creep wave because of Q harass. But if he starts armor and farms his bonus fast, can't he pretty much ignore you if he also uses W whenever you commit to a trade? If Garen starts cloth5 he can ignore your damage, but then he also does no damage and you can ignore him. Panth scales better than Garen. If he doesn't start cloth5 you should be able to bully him pretty well. Even then, you can mess up his Q+E combo by stunning him before he hits u.
Also, I'm tired of always using tho in my sentences (see above ). Another word I could use w/o resorting to 'on the other hand', 'whereas' and that kind of stuff?
You should be able to beat Garen. Your stun can mess up his Q+E combo and if he starts cloth5 he won't do any damage to you.
Well you should not be able to beat but even destroy Garen. He has ridiculously long CDs and can't answer to your harass. He has a decent lvl1 but yours is better, a better lvl2 but yours is better as well :p
On January 17 2012 05:30 Alaric wrote: HAHAHAHaha... ! Udyr just died against Swain and Ashe, almost killing them, + Soraka that retreated when my engage almost killed her and forced her ult, so with Zilean gone that we couldn't save from Lee Sin, who we killed in retaliation along with Garen who tought his ult would kill my 50% hp 140 MRes, that left both teams as Swain with blue, Ashe, both crippled, and Soraka, hiding behind their 2nd bot tower and considering abandoning it to go heal themselves, facing 500 hp Pantheon, squishy but scaringly bursty TF, and ult-less wounded Alistar. What do?
Mandrop right behind those fuckers and their tower to cut their escape, obviously! Then you get to tank some tower hits while you stun Swain on arrival, get Ashe but not him with HSS, and exhibit your finisher with a spear to Bird's face, while Ali and TF use your aggro-ing of the tower to kill Soraka for the ace then get back to safety. All in all, that was well worth your heroic sacrifice, forfaiting your... Guardian Angel buff to finish the game. Fuck yeah!
Always tower dive, never die.
I had to lane against Garen but he was disconnected at the start of the game, LS started cloth+5 and killed his golems, the xp advantage allowing him to be a real bully till I reached level 3. I was able to pull though after that, then Garen reconnected and LS went back to the jungle. I'm still curious tho, how does Pantheon fare against Garen? If you don't get too close you should be able to stall the ms buff on his Q or just block it (I don't think it blocks the silence tho?), and he can't try to zone you by standing in the creep wave because of Q harass. But if he starts armor and farms his bonus fast, can't he pretty much ignore you if he also uses W whenever you commit to a trade? If Garen starts cloth5 he can ignore your damage, but then he also does no damage and you can ignore him. Panth scales better than Garen. If he doesn't start cloth5 you should be able to bully him pretty well. Even then, you can mess up his Q+E combo by stunning him before he hits u.
Also, I'm tired of always using tho in my sentences (see above ). Another word I could use w/o resorting to 'on the other hand', 'whereas' and that kind of stuff?
You should be able to beat Garen. Your stun can mess up his Q+E combo and if he starts cloth5 he won't do any damage to you.
Yeah, I was surprised by how easily I could handle Garen with Panth. Anytime he wants to farm he gets a spear to the face. At first, I felt like that was just a waste of mana because of his passive. But if you keep doing it, it prevents him from getting any farm. The more you level Q, the worse it gets too.
If he charges at you wtih Q, you can just Q W E Q combo him for more damage or kite with barely any losses.
garen is actually pretty easy. Unless he's running exhaust/ignite, you can just grab dblade and straight up fight him at level 1 and win pretty much every time
Oh damn, tried out jungle Pantheon, so strong. You're really more of a full-time ganker that jungles on his time off than a real jungler though. If the enemy laners play defensively and/or you have bad gank supporters, you're in for a rough time, but with any luck/coordination you get kills galore.
If you do it late enough, the circle at your landing point still appears (then vanish, obviously), I believe. This can generate some pressure on the enemy. But you don't get the vision before you're committed.
On January 18 2012 18:11 Alaric wrote: If you do it late enough, the circle at your landing point still appears (then vanish, obviously), I believe. This can generate some pressure on the enemy. But you don't get the vision before you're committed.
This isnt how it works. The circle only appears for your team. The enemy only receives warning after you are in the air for 2 seconds (after which you can't cancel).
I never got the garen boner that some people have, but I guess it's cause Pantheon beats him early and Irelia beats him late, so 2 of my most played characters kinda counter him.
Level 2 gank on mid so strong, if your mid has a stun it's almost a guaranteed kill. I've been going Wriggle's into the regular Pantheon build but I'm not sure if I should cut the Wriggle's or the Brutalizer. Both seem a bit too good to pass up.
I'm also unsure of when to take blue (I'm starting red), it seems too time consuming to do it before I finish Madreds at least, which is at like 5 minutes so I'm missing out on a lot of blue time.
On January 19 2012 13:20 Alzadar wrote: Jungle Pantheon games: 7/0/6, 7/2/3, 8/2/5, 13/5/16.
Level 2 gank on mid so strong, if your mid has a stun it's almost a guaranteed kill. I've been going Wriggle's into the regular Pantheon build but I'm not sure if I should cut the Wriggle's or the Brutalizer. Both seem a bit too good to pass up.
I'm also unsure of when to take blue (I'm starting red), it seems too time consuming to do it before I finish Madreds at least, which is at like 5 minutes so I'm missing out on a lot of blue time.
Why don't you just start boots3 then instead of wriggles get 2 dblades. Almost as efficient, cheaper, and stronger ganks. You don't get the proc and less lifesteal, but Panth jungle's more about ganking constantly than it is about farming anyways.
On January 19 2012 13:20 Alzadar wrote: Jungle Pantheon games: 7/0/6, 7/2/3, 8/2/5, 13/5/16.
Level 2 gank on mid so strong, if your mid has a stun it's almost a guaranteed kill. I've been going Wriggle's into the regular Pantheon build but I'm not sure if I should cut the Wriggle's or the Brutalizer. Both seem a bit too good to pass up.
I'm also unsure of when to take blue (I'm starting red), it seems too time consuming to do it before I finish Madreds at least, which is at like 5 minutes so I'm missing out on a lot of blue time.
Why don't you just start boots3 then instead of wriggles get 2 dblades. Almost as efficient, cheaper, and stronger ganks. You don't get the proc and less lifesteal, but Panth jungle's more about ganking constantly than it is about farming anyways.
for whatever it's worth, when I jungle panth I go boots3 -> wriggle's -> brutalizer -> aegis most games.
as for when to blue, I usually open blue on blue side, and open red on purple side -> get blue whenever I should stop lane camping. Small jungle camps are highly overrated, it's barely fucking worth taking them anymore, just camp camp camp camp camp with jangle panth. Your level 2 gank is pretty much always strongest at top with that long lane, a flash mid will usually save them.
Why wriggles? If you're going to be mainly camping lanes 2 dblades will give you more ganking power at 650 gold cheaper, which lets you get your bruta faster.
I'd say Panth falls severely behind in jungle without it or goes mana starved trying to keep up with the enemy jungler. If your main role as Panth was GANKER, then yeah dblades are great
Why would you jungle pantheon? He clears absurdly slow unless you max your E first, and then if you do that I think your damage will fall off. He has a 1 second stun, but a lot of junglers can do better than that with things like permanent slow. Certainly his ganks become better once he gets his ult, but by then many ganking opportunities will have passed.
It seems like a smarter choice to lane him until level 6, and then have your jungler take your lane while you go gank for him whenever your ult is up.
On January 19 2012 16:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Why would you jungle pantheon? He clears absurdly slow unless you max your E first, and then if you do that I think your damage will fall off. He has a 1 second stun, but a lot of junglers can do better than that with things like permanent slow. Certainly his ganks become better once he gets his ult, but by then many ganking opportunities will have passed.
It seems like a smarter choice to lane him until level 6, and then have your jungler take your lane while you go gank for him whenever your ult is up.
Your ultimate is a useful tool for ganking yes, but it is nowhere near the reason your ganks are powerful and you should not be waiting for it to gank. It's like never ganking as Skarner unless your ult is up, makes no sense.
Maxing E first is terrible, skill order is the same as always. Your clear speed is very fast when you have blue and acceptable the rest of the time (with Wriggle's). Killing Blow or whatever it's called is really useful for the jungle.
I open Boots3 -> DBlade -> Wriggle's, I guess I should try skipping one or the other.
On January 19 2012 15:43 Ryuu314 wrote: Why wriggles? If you're going to be mainly camping lanes 2 dblades will give you more ganking power at 650 gold cheaper, which lets you get your bruta faster.
eh, this might be true, I dunno, I rarely play him in the jungle so I haven't given it a lot of thought. the one time I tried double dblade -> brutalizer, I felt like my HP was going down too much in the jungle when I did decide to farm it and I always like the free wards from wriggle's. Also, since I like to go bruta -> aegis out of the jungle, if I were to follow up double dblade with this, I'd be staring at only 1 free item slot after just 4.5K gold making it impossible to get a bf sword ASAP and continue warding. I dunno, I get the argument for both, but I think I'd still recommend wriggle's.
On January 19 2012 16:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Why would you jungle pantheon? He clears absurdly slow unless you max your E first, and then if you do that I think your damage will fall off. He has a 1 second stun, but a lot of junglers can do better than that with things like permanent slow. Certainly his ganks become better once he gets his ult, but by then many ganking opportunities will have passed.
It seems like a smarter choice to lane him until level 6, and then have your jungler take your lane while you go gank for him whenever your ult is up.
1 second stun that comes with a jump to your target + crazy low level damage output + highest base movespeed in the game = probably the deadliest low level ganks in the game. stop kidding yourself, his early gank game is fucking crazy, it is not par for the course by any stretch of the imagination as Shaco, Rammus and Lee Sin are the only 3 junglers even in his league in terms of early gank potential.
He comes to lane with cloth 5, tries to 1v1 me a little bit, gets destroyed. 10s latter, I flash spear ignite and he dies. He TPs back, and I have like 1/3 health. I'm 1 creep to lvl2. I kill the creep while GP hits me in my shield, I aegis him to get the passive back, he continues to hit me, I spear/auto to get the passive back, second kill in 30s :D
The rest of the game was pretty funny \o/ Lots of whine.
On January 20 2012 00:58 mr_tolkien wrote: Just had a very funny game vs a GP :p He had TP.
He comes to lane with cloth 5, tries to 1v1 me a little bit, gets destroyed. 10s latter, I flash spear ignite and he dies. He TPs back, and I have like 1/3 health. I'm 1 creep to lvl2. I kill the creep while GP hits me in my shield, I aegis him to get the passive back, he continues to hit me, I spear/auto to get the passive back, second kill in 30s :D
The rest of the game was pretty funny \o/ Lots of whine.
yep, people suck pretty bad vs. Pantheon, lol. I love when people TP back on like, the last creep in a wave when I have a double wave built up and a level advantage and then they try to fight me. it just never ends well, lol.
Smash - thanks for the tip of playing GP vs Pantheon and playing extremely safe with armor quints, Wriggle/Tabi/gp5, and a few levels of oranges. I was initially worried when I got counterpicked but it seems GP can do fine in almost every lane, even against Pantheon =/
On January 20 2012 04:17 Sandster wrote: Smash - thanks for the tip of playing GP vs Pantheon and playing extremely safe with armor quints, Wriggle/Tabi/gp5, and a few levels of oranges. I was initially worried when I got counterpicked but it seems GP can do fine in almost every lane, even against Pantheon =/
GP is lame as hell. It's pretty much impossible to hurt your team by taking flash TP GP with some sort of double gold/10 opening. Even bad matchups like pantheon, rumble, yorrick and WW can be played to stalemates where you win the stalemate via parrrley and gold/10 gold and then match or beat their endgame scaling.
So fun to play Cho'Gath vs Pantheon from the other perspective for a change. Build order: Cloth, Cloth, Chain Vest, Boots. Huehuehue why is that little man tickling me.
On January 31 2012 09:45 Alzadar wrote: So fun to play Cho'Gath vs Pantheon from the other perspective for a change. Build order: Cloth, Cloth, Chain Vest, Boots. Huehuehue why is that little man tickling me.
"Hey, yo, Cassiopeia" "sup?" "This cho top has 40mres and 120 armor, wanna switch?" "sure bro" "k ima ult mid to kill that Brand and you can roll top afterwards!"
On January 31 2012 09:45 Alzadar wrote: So fun to play Cho'Gath vs Pantheon from the other perspective for a change. Build order: Cloth, Cloth, Chain Vest, Boots. Huehuehue why is that little man tickling me.
"Hey, yo, Cassiopeia" "sup?" "This cho top has 40mres and 120 armor, wanna switch?" "sure bro" "k ima ult mid to kill that Brand and you can roll top afterwards!"
=P
Except Cassiopeia was our mid, laning against her sister. They should have switched, but I think I would have been ok if they had. Kat can't ult me, I outsustain BB and shunpo on to me is a pretty bad idea as well.
It was a pretty bizarre game, I was queuing with 3 friends and the random picked Ezreal so we went Cho, Cass, Jarvan and Sona, only to realize ingame he was AP Ezreal.
On February 10 2012 04:12 Arnovic wrote: How about auto attack pantheon? It's probably a troll build but with his passive it might work.. and ionic spark is fun :3 Opinions?
it's terrible.
if I want to auto with Pantheon I'll go ghostblade, cleaver, triforce. straight AS sucks because then you're only building around his passive and not using the scaling on any of his other abilities.
I love this guide. I had no idea how to play Pantheon before I read this.
Now, I am wondering if anyone has any troll pantheon support games to post. I'm talking, like sub 15cs with a non traditional carry on bot like AP Janna or something. Does this, Pansieon have any potential?
Also, how do you zone out mid lane? I'm a little confused about that, and it's sort of important for if you (or your mid) gets counterpicked.
Psh, this guide sucks balls, and all your opinions are wrong.
It's all about AP pantheon. If you're not playing AP pantheon, you're not playing pantheon to his full potential. Stunning for like 800 damage, and then ulting on 5 people dealing like 2k dmg. Makes ziggs ult look like shit. NPNPNP, Carry team to victories all the time.
After reading this guide I picked up pantheon and have never had so much fun playing a champ. I've started to branch out from Panth top lane, into panth jungle if someone has already picked a top. Soon imma start picking panth bot as a kill lane, just so i get a chance to play him.
Mandropping on people is just too much fun. Especially when they flash after you have already buffered W. "Oh, you're a screen away? NPNP".
On February 11 2012 16:16 Dgiese wrote: After reading this guide I picked up pantheon and have never had so much fun playing a champ. I've started to branch out from Panth top lane, into panth jungle if someone has already picked a top. Soon imma start picking panth bot as a kill lane, just so i get a chance to play him.
Mandropping on people is just too much fun. Especially when they flash after you have already buffered W. "Oh, you're a screen away? NPNP".
If you can get someone to duo q with you try going panth/leona bot lane. Funniest shit evah.
On February 11 2012 16:16 Dgiese wrote: After reading this guide I picked up pantheon and have never had so much fun playing a champ. I've started to branch out from Panth top lane, into panth jungle if someone has already picked a top. Soon imma start picking panth bot as a kill lane, just so i get a chance to play him.
Mandropping on people is just too much fun. Especially when they flash after you have already buffered W. "Oh, you're a screen away? NPNP".
If you can get someone to duo q with you try going panth/leona bot lane. Funniest shit evah.
I can confirm this. Some of the most fun I've had on this game comes from playing panth/leona bot lane
Just played with a panth top lane on my team. He went Philo -> mercs. I tried to link him to this thread after the game, but he left before I could post it in chat lobby
Riot should totally do featured guides in additino to featured streams. Not fair that some people don't know the real joy of panth, just because they don't visit TL.
On February 12 2012 02:51 Dgiese wrote: Just played with a panth top lane on my team. He went Philo -> mercs. I tried to link him to this thread after the game, but he left before I could post it in chat lobby
Riot should totally do featured guides in additino to featured streams. Not fair that some people don't know the real joy of panth, just because they don't visit TL.
I kind of like that Pantheon is our little secret.
I don't see it the same way. Cause... I didn't know about the awesomeness of Pantheon before I read this thread. What if Smash (and Loci) had decided to keep it as their little secret? May as well try to share the love.
On February 12 2012 05:07 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Pantheon doesn't seem that great vs nunu. I think this is a widely known thing. Aggressive pantheon today had 34 cs when I had over 100 :/
Well Pantheon already has a hard time zoning a GP maxing W first so I'd imagine a Nunu would be even more annoying with consume/iceball.
On February 12 2012 05:07 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Pantheon doesn't seem that great vs nunu. I think this is a widely known thing. Aggressive pantheon today had 34 cs when I had over 100 :/
Well Pantheon already has a hard time zoning a GP maxing W first so I'd imagine a Nunu would be even more annoying with consume/iceball.
panth has a hard time vs GP's w because of the cc break, not necessarily because of the heal part. That said, nunu does seem really annoying to play against as a panth.
Nunu's plentiful annoying against a large range of champs, both top and mid. Real lane bully there, it's just his scaling doesn't warrant giving him solo farm.
On February 12 2012 05:07 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Pantheon doesn't seem that great vs nunu. I think this is a widely known thing. Aggressive pantheon today had 34 cs when I had over 100 :/
Well Pantheon already has a hard time zoning a GP maxing W first so I'd imagine a Nunu would be even more annoying with consume/iceball.
panth has a hard time vs GP's w because of the cc break, not necessarily because of the heal part. That said, nunu does seem really annoying to play against as a panth.
I'm by no means an expert, but I'd argue it's the other way around. I don't think he cares too much about the fact the CC removal because the best part about W is that it repositions Pantheon towards GP. With reaction time taken into account, I think the difference between using W and not using W when stunned as GP might be about one tick of HSS, which isn't all THAT much at lower levels. The problem is that a maxed W gives around 350 HP for 60 mana at level 9. Pantheon naturally pushes the lane (HSS is a zoning tool that damages creeps), so GP is free to farm at tower with Q while healing himself for 350 every 16 or so seconds.
I mean, there was no point in maxing W if it's main use was the CC removal.
I have a quick question about buffering skills while ulting. You just need to press either q or w once when the second circle appears with the opponent inside, and then do nothing right? For some reason it doesn't work for me.
On February 12 2012 05:07 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Pantheon doesn't seem that great vs nunu. I think this is a widely known thing. Aggressive pantheon today had 34 cs when I had over 100 :/
Well Pantheon already has a hard time zoning a GP maxing W first so I'd imagine a Nunu would be even more annoying with consume/iceball.
panth has a hard time vs GP's w because of the cc break, not necessarily because of the heal part. That said, nunu does seem really annoying to play against as a panth.
I'm by no means an expert, but I'd argue it's the other way around. I don't think he cares too much about the fact the CC removal because the best part about W is that it repositions Pantheon towards GP. With reaction time taken into account, I think the difference between using W and not using W when stunned as GP might be about one tick of HSS, which isn't all THAT much at lower levels. The problem is that a maxed W gives around 350 HP for 60 mana at level 9. Pantheon naturally pushes the lane (HSS is a zoning tool that damages creeps), so GP is free to farm at tower with Q while healing himself for 350 every 16 or so seconds.
I mean, there was no point in maxing W if it's main use was the CC removal.
Yes, you don't miss out on THAT much hss damage with the CC break, but the real problem is that you can't follow up the HSS with an additional autoattack and a spearshot. Typically, in a panth burst combo, I can pretty reliably Q, W, E, auto, Q. With the CC break, however, I only am able to get the q,w,e, and miss out on the last auto and Q damage, which is pretty significant. The cc break also is annoying because it means GP has to be a lot lower for you to be able to commit and kill him than other champs, because he just escapes your death combo.
As for the benefits of leveling W, the bonus heal is def part of the equation, but IMO, especially if GP is stocking up on pots, which he should be, the CD is a lot more valuable than the bonus healing.
Also, assuming panth has wards to avoid jungle ganks, GP simply cannot 'free farm under tower' because of how easy it is to just continuously spearshot him, and he cannot punish you for it, so pushing as panth isn't really an issue. GP does not, by any means, get a free pass simply by being under tower, like it happens with other champions. I typically only push that hard when I have flash tho, so that I can W + flash the jungler to safety if need be.
edit:
On February 12 2012 18:21 [NoiSe] wrote: I have a quick question about buffering skills while ulting. You just need to press either q or w once when the second circle appears with the opponent inside, and then do nothing right? For some reason it doesn't work for me.
it can be iffy sometimes, but yes, what you're saying is the correct way of doing it. It isn't really 100% reliable tho, I've had tons of times where i've W'd to a person and it simply didn't stun for whatever reason. I've also had tons of times where I hop enormous distances, which can be really weird. If you don't have smart-casting on, then once you press W (after the 2nd circle appears) you should get a range indicator inside the circle.
On February 12 2012 06:49 Alaric wrote: Nunu's plentiful annoying against a large range of champs, both top and mid. Real lane bully there, it's just his scaling doesn't warrant giving him solo farm.
It doesn't really matter. We both know pantheon's scaling isn't that great either so if he loses his lane badly, nunu is still stronger later in the game.
I'd agree gangplank would probably be a better counter though. I say probably because good nunu ults can win games, and midgame bloodboil can really boost an AD carry's dps.
On February 12 2012 06:49 Alaric wrote: Nunu's plentiful annoying against a large range of champs, both top and mid. Real lane bully there, it's just his scaling doesn't warrant giving him solo farm.
It doesn't really matter. We both know pantheon's scaling isn't that great either so if he loses his lane badly, nunu is still stronger later in the game.
I'd agree gangplank would probably be a better counter though. I say probably because good nunu ults can win games, and midgame bloodboil can really boost an AD carry's dps.
Gangplank ISN'T a pantheon counter. Just because he survive through maxing oranges and stacking armor doesn't mean he's a counter.
On February 12 2012 06:49 Alaric wrote: Nunu's plentiful annoying against a large range of champs, both top and mid. Real lane bully there, it's just his scaling doesn't warrant giving him solo farm.
It doesn't really matter. We both know pantheon's scaling isn't that great either so if he loses his lane badly, nunu is still stronger later in the game.
I'd agree gangplank would probably be a better counter though. I say probably because good nunu ults can win games, and midgame bloodboil can really boost an AD carry's dps.
Gangplank ISN'T a pantheon counter. Just because he survive through maxing oranges and stacking armor doesn't mean he's a counter.
^this. Gangplank can farm against a pantheon by maxing oranges and stacking armor, but he still can't zone him or kill him unless Pantheon messes up. Going even in the lane != counter
On February 12 2012 06:49 Alaric wrote: Nunu's plentiful annoying against a large range of champs, both top and mid. Real lane bully there, it's just his scaling doesn't warrant giving him solo farm.
It doesn't really matter. We both know pantheon's scaling isn't that great either so if he loses his lane badly, nunu is still stronger later in the game.
I'd agree gangplank would probably be a better counter though. I say probably because good nunu ults can win games, and midgame bloodboil can really boost an AD carry's dps.
Gangplank ISN'T a pantheon counter. Just because he survive through maxing oranges and stacking armor doesn't mean he's a counter.
^this. Gangplank can farm against a pantheon by maxing oranges and stacking armor, but he still can't zone him or kill him unless Pantheon messes up. Going even in the lane != counter
Are you joking? Going even in the lane as GP against Pantheon equals winning the lane. Times infinity.
He outscales Pantheon so much it's not even funny and, unlike him, has actual global presence. To win a lane as Pantheon is to dismantle your opponent, effectively putting him 30+ CS behind. If you're not accomplishing that against a GP, you have a problem once the later mid game hits.
Granted, but just because someone outscales you and doesn't immediately die to you doesn't make him a counter. Like the OP says, people like malph and cho are counters, cause they can go heavy armor and it doesn't hurt them in the slightest. Yes GP can do things to survive, but it comes at a heavy cost to him (Admittedly not as heavy of a cost to pantheon, due to late game scaling, but still a cost).
The point is, surviving and outscaling someone isnt a counter in and of itself. Otherwise Nasus would counter almost everyone.
On February 13 2012 04:44 Dgiese wrote: Granted, but just because someone outscales you and doesn't immediately die to you doesn't make him a counter. Like the OP says, people like malph and cho are counters, cause they can go heavy armor and it doesn't hurt them in the slightest. Yes GP can do things to survive, but it comes at a heavy cost to him (Admittedly not as heavy of a cost to pantheon, due to late game scaling, but still a cost).
The point is, surviving and outscaling someone isnt a counter in and of itself. Otherwise Nasus would counter almost everyone.
I never said he was a counter either. If you want to counter Pantheon pick Malphite, period. That being said, the guy I was quoting assumed going even in lane against Pantheon as GP does not mean you won your lane, which is flat out wrong.
Sidenote: I don't think the cost for standing a chance against Pantheon are all that high. Armor quints are not a big deal and a maxed W does not hurt your ability to teamfight all that much after all. I agree GP is no straight up counter to Pantheon, but I'd use him to counter PICK a Pantheon based on the assumption I will always come out ahead of that lane because I know both sides of the MU. Oh, and I hate Malphite with a passion and I suck at Cho.
I don't get the idea that max orange gp outlasts and therefore beats pantheon. If you have no presence in your lane vs pantheon then he can and will kill your mid and invade your red/blue buff with his jungler while you try to catch up on farm, and will ult your bottom lane whenever he goes back to buy. Your ult is nice for team presence but it's got nothing on a pantheon gank. In a head on fight in the jungle you're obviously weaker without maxed q and e so it's not like you could stop a slightly coordinated attack at the buffs or even a burgeoning teamfight early on. You guys are talking about this stuff purely as "well he survives the lane and therefore, thanks to scaling, wins" which precludes the Pantheon only existing inside of his specific lane.
On February 13 2012 05:07 TwoToneTerran wrote: I don't get the idea that max orange gp outlasts and therefore beats pantheon. If you have no presence in your lane vs pantheon then he can and will kill your mid and invade your red/blue buff with his jungler while you try to catch up on farm. In a head on fight you're obviously weaker without maxed q and e so it's not like you could stop a slightly coordinated attack.
Assuming organized play and a team that is able to communicate via VoIP, sure. In SoloQ, where everyone minds their own business and teams are not good enough to close out games when they have a distinct advantage, it does not matter because more often than not, GP can reach a point where his teamfight presence is twice as big as Pantheons.
Also, if you chose to gank mid, you'll probably lose your tower, which makes further invading a lot harder.
On February 13 2012 05:07 TwoToneTerran wrote: I don't get the idea that max orange gp outlasts and therefore beats pantheon. If you have no presence in your lane vs pantheon then he can and will kill your mid and invade your red/blue buff with his jungler while you try to catch up on farm, and will ult your bottom lane whenever he goes back to buy. Your ult is nice for team presence but it's got nothing on a pantheon gank. In a head on fight in the jungle you're obviously weaker without maxed q and e so it's not like you could stop a slightly coordinated attack at the buffs or even a burgeoning teamfight early on. You guys are talking about this stuff purely as "well he survives the lane and therefore, thanks to scaling, wins" which precludes the Pantheon only existing inside of his specific lane.
max oranges gp makes pantheon overextend like fuck if he want to keep up harass or risk GP freefarm, which, as people noted, is a bad tradeoff.
he is a free kill when overextended as such, esp with GP's passive. not a hard counter, but notable on both sides as having strong / weak points.
Pantheon is one of the most gankable lanes for both teams. If you try to gank for a weak gangplank and their jungler is there, you're also screwed. I just think saying Max Orange GP counters Pantheon in any sense is fundamentally flawed. It assumes your team can't do anything with a practical man advantage in all the other lanes thanks to panth's mobility and retardedly strong ganks.
I'm pretty confident that max oranges GP is a soft counter to Pantheon. GP with armor runes+cloth and maxing oranges is going to be able to farm fine. If Pantheon can't get a large lead over GP then in my eyes, he "lost" his lane since GP scales so much harder than him. Pantheon ganks on other lanes is always a large threat regardless of who Pantheon is facing.
The point of max oranges GP is that even tho you can't harass or kill Pantheon, he can't do crap to you. You will farm perfectly fine and you really shouldn't be behind by more than 6~10 cs, which your parrley passive more than makes up for. Max oranges GP never has to "catch up in farm" since he shouldn't be behind in the first place. Yes, max oranges GP does less damage than if you maxed Q or E, so you will be less of a presence in skirmishes in the jungle.
That completely ignores everything I said. My point is that you are too weak to help defend your own jungle and that if your only goal is to farm you have left your other lanes and dragon for dead as you are a non presence until midgame. "Just farming" isn't a counter to pantheon if he takes the advantage from the rest of your team thanks to your forced passivity. There's a reason Gangplank doesn't WANT to max W to stay in lane against anyone else.
I understand it's solo queue but i can't possibly get behind the idea that "just farming" beats a Pantheon lane.
Pantheon > GP, just not as hard as most people seem to think. A better GP will beat a worse Pantheon and vice versa, but a really good Pantheon vs. a really good GP is in Pantheon's favor, including late game scaling. The nice thing is that there are only like 5 Pantheons out there who are actually good enough at the matchup to beat good GPs, so you're generally pretty safe picking GP vs. Pantheon if you know the matchup.
Nunu >>>>> Pantheon, 2nd hardest counter after Malphite, shit's not even fair. Sidenote: people have a flawed view of the late game, and thus underestimate every character that falls off even a little bit. A farmed nunu vs. a denied opponent is a bigger problem than anyone seems willing to admit just because he doesn't scale as hard as Veigar. When a level 16 Nunu with fully charged RoA decides to start channeling a defensive ult to protect his ranged carry, you fucking better start dumping some CC on him or you're about to get 3 for none'd, and if you have to dump cc on him, it's not on the bloodboiled ranged carry who's tearing you a new bobbum.
On February 14 2012 01:39 Mogwai wrote: When a level 16 Nunu with fully charged RoA decides to start channeling a defensive ult to protect his ranged carry, you fucking better start dumping some CC on him or you're about to get 3 for none'd, and if you have to dump cc on him, it's not on the bloodboiled ranged carry who's tearing you a new bobbum.
rofl, the league is way too good. one of my ranked teams is named Fear Boners and if I were to make a team tomorrow I'd either name it Bobbum Men or The Equipmunk Shack, lol.
Played Pantheon for the first time last night. Having read Smash's guide and watched him and Loci smash faces, I first-blooded Riven by 3:30. Sufficiently terrified of me, she's completely zoned out but I managed to kill her again a few minutes later. Finally Nocturne comes to gank me and they tower dive. I w-q-e Nocturne and he dies to the tower. Riven bails out but my Amumu snags her in the bush and I finish her off with a spear for the double Riven is at 25 cs 15 minutes into the game, i'm 5-0 (caught Nocturne trying to steal our blue earlier), games in the bag right?
Their Anivia is 4-0 and crushing our Ziggs. After I back from the tower dive debacle, Ziggs requests I switch with him. I reeeeeeally didn't want to, knowing that I have zilch survivablity, but I do anyways My feed is wasted. Anivia has rod of ages and blue buff. She zones ME out and kills me even when I stun her on tower, surviving with one tick left on egg form. I get focused hard, blown up every team fight and finish like 8-7, we lose. asd;flkj I'm used to carrying hard when I get a feed like that with Gangplank or Irelia QQ
Equipmunk sharp, equipmunk dirty Equipmunk make Kevin's bobbum hurty Booobbbbbbbbbbbbummmmmmmmmmmm.
lol, anyway, back to Pantheon. I'm going to try harder with counter-specs on Pantheon vs. the really obnoxious matchups. I've been derping with AD quints vs. Malphite/Nunu/Cho, and now I'm wondering if I can manage to turn the lane into a freefarm lane via smarter specing and building.
On February 14 2012 04:10 Hyren wrote: Played Pantheon for the first time last night. Having read Smash's guide and watched him and Loci smash faces, I first-blooded Riven by 3:30. Sufficiently terrified of me, she's completely zoned out but I managed to kill her again a few minutes later. Finally Nocturne comes to gank me and they tower dive. I w-q-e Nocturne and he dies to the tower. Riven bails out but my Amumu snags her in the bush and I finish her off with a spear for the double Riven is at 25 cs 15 minutes into the game, i'm 5-0 (caught Nocturne trying to steal our blue earlier), games in the bag right?
Their Anivia is 4-0 and crushing our Ziggs. After I back from the tower dive debacle, Ziggs requests I switch with him. I reeeeeeally didn't want to, knowing that I have zilch survivablity, but I do anyways My feed is wasted. Anivia has rod of ages and blue buff. She zones ME out and kills me even when I stun her on tower, surviving with one tick left on egg form. I get focused hard, blown up every team fight and finish like 8-7, we lose. asd;flkj I'm used to carrying hard when I get a feed like that with Gangplank or Irelia QQ
If it will make you feel any better, no Melee can carry vs. fed Anivia. Anivia real fucking S-tier late game melee stomper. You shouldn't have switched lanes, your only hope is to stomp Riven completely out of the game while Ziggs towercamps and uses his range to get what CS he can without dying. Then you need to hope that you can exploit split pushing with Pantheon later in the game to win it because you cannot successfully teamfight vs. Anivia when your strongest character is Pantheon or any other Melee.
Hey all, just started playing Panth and have a question. How do you deal with an armor stacking Irelia mid-game? I was wrecking her until about 15 minutes in, then once she got Wriggles+HoG it became a problem trading. Once she got Randuins I couldn't do jack, but then we started teamfighting and won. Eventually I got more ArPen+Dmg items, but I was just curious about how to deal with that mid-game and not letting it affect your lead? Went from 4-0 to 4-3 vs her. Thanks in advance, and great guide Mogwai
Abuse the lead you've edged out and abuse your superior mobility with ult. Chances are if you are 4-0 you will be strong enough to straight up ult their mid under tower, kill them, and escape. Just tell you mid what you're doing, and fire away. This is pretty much always enough to get mid turret, or force dragon. Note: you can do the exact same thing with bot if you want. Oh, and it's also a good idea to clue your jungler i on your plan, so he can be ready for dragon, or soaking up XP top as needed.
On February 28 2012 12:10 Mondeezy wrote: Hey all, just started playing Panth and have a question. How do you deal with an armor stacking Irelia mid-game? I was wrecking her until about 15 minutes in, then once she got Wriggles+HoG it became a problem trading. Once she got Randuins I couldn't do jack, but then we started teamfighting and won. Eventually I got more ArPen+Dmg items, but I was just curious about how to deal with that mid-game and not letting it affect your lead? Went from 4-0 to 4-3 vs her. Thanks in advance, and great guide Mogwai
If she's telegraphing a stupidly high armor build, you basically have 3 options. 1. skip brutalizer and instead rush bloodthirster. after bloodthirster, rush last whisper. 2. build normally and accept that you can't trade with her (farm lane, look for ult ganks). 3. wait for the 2nd armor item (usually whatever comes after wriggle's) and then switch with your AP mid.
Smashed (w/o pun) an Udyr who started boots+3, but even while I won all trades and would weaken him little by little, I thought it took an awful lot of time to do so, with turtle being some kind of pain until I got my BFS. He'd go into turtle as soon as he'd see my Q's casting anim, and whenever I tried to sneak near him to hit before he could react he'd just activate bear instead and run at me (here I stun, step back, kite him because I've got MS quints and we're in the middle of my creeps to hinder his pathing, then Q when he turns back -> he shields, back to square one).
Is Pantheon supposed to beat an Udyr played right (cloth+5 and possibly armor quints for example)? The window between a shieldless Q and a bearstun looks pretty tight, so it's kinda hard to harass and if I ever get caught up in a straight-up fight I expect his tiger stance to shred me. Is the additional time it takes to kill him a set back, or too strong to make him reliably dunked if played right (I sure as hell have areas to improve in myself, like here zone control from his bear)?
On March 14 2012 01:00 Alaric wrote: Smashed (w/o pun) an Udyr who started boots+3, but even while I won all trades and would weaken him little by little, I thought it took an awful lot of time to do so, with turtle being some kind of pain until I got my BFS. He'd go into turtle as soon as he'd see my Q's casting anim, and whenever I tried to sneak near him to hit before he could react he'd just activate bear instead and run at me (here I stun, step back, kit-ue him because I've got MS quints and we're in the middle of my creeps to hinder his pathing, then Q when he turns back -> he shields, back to square one).
Is Pantheon supposed to beat an Udyr played right (cloth+5 and possibly armor quints for example)? The window between a shieldless Q and a bearstun looks pretty tight, so it's kinda hard to harass and if I ever get caught up in a straight-up fight I expect his tiger stance to shred me. Is the additional time it takes to kill him a set back, or too strong to make him reliably dunked if played right (I sure as hell have areas to improve in myself, like here zone control from his bear)?
I tend to beat udyrs pretty hard before wriggle's, but Udyr has all the tools to survive within 20 cs of Pantheon until wriggle's and post wriggle's, it's just GG for Pantheon. Most Udyrs are pretty bad, but a well played one will not lose too badly to Pantheon early and then crush him later.
Fiora started boots, does that even count? By the way, why did you start boots, because of the jungling Udyr on the enemy team, to be able to outrun Bear ganks?
I more or less quit top because early ganks have been ruining me, so when I do play it, I've just been opening safer items. Also at this level, I don't need to bully people at level 1 to beat them. I can wait for level 3 to start applying real pressure and still win, so the risk vs. reward has been driving me towards boots openings recently.
Smash could you give some advice for laning 'against' pantheon as a non-sustain guy like jax/wukong etc? What are the general things, if any, to keep in mind in order to minimize damage vs a pantheons? Or maybe any typical mistakes a not-so-good pantheon player may make that I can capitalize on.
On March 19 2012 00:56 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: Smash could you give some advice for laning 'against' pantheon as a non-sustain guy like jax/wukong etc? What are the general things, if any, to keep in mind in order to minimize damage vs a pantheons? Or maybe any typical mistakes a not-so-good pantheon player may make that I can capitalize on.
let yourself get zoned off CS but not off XP until level 6 or when you have jungle ganks coming. I mean, really you just don't want to play these matchups, Panth wins them pretty hard.
How do you guys deal vs a Yorick at top, with a jungle Shyv babysitting him?
I played pretty aggro vs him early on, was trading successfully. But once he hit level 4 and was spamming 3 ghouls every time I jumped on him it became a shit-show. Not to mention Shyv would come top at least once a minute--not to much effect, but it was annoying and let Yorick catch up in CS. My jungle came up to gank once..made him blow a flash but not much else(Nocturne was jungle). We ended up winning, but that's because our AD carry completely outclassed theirs and I ended up getting fed off ganking other lanes, not specifically my 1v1 matchup. Halp?
On March 20 2012 02:29 Mogwai wrote: nothing to help, that's the matchup. deal with it.
Are there any variations to the itemization that could be changed to better deal with it? Once I got BT I was fine, but before that it was near impossible. If not, I guess I'll just bend over and take it in the ass on the rare occasion that I do play him.
Also, does Manth have a straight up counter? I have yet to lose to anyone besides Yorick.
On March 20 2012 02:29 Mogwai wrote: nothing to help, that's the matchup. deal with it.
Are there any variations to the itemization that could be changed to better deal with it? Once I got BT I was fine, but before that it was near impossible. If not, I guess I'll just bend over and take it in the ass on the rare occasion that I do play him.
Also, does Manth have a straight up counter? I have yet to lose to anyone besides Yorick.
Malphite, Nunu, any super sustainer who gets a little early help (Udyr, WW, Irelia, Yorrick)
Against Yorick I like to just skip the brutalizer unless i can get it ridiculously early or the yorick is just bad. in my experience, when I manage to get brutalizer is about when yorick has tear+some armor and at that point you don't really want to trade/can't trade favorably so I feel like i'm better off just going straight for the BT.
On March 21 2012 00:53 Mogwai wrote: Against Yorick I just like to play Xin. I'm thinking about bringing back the solo top mumu for the yorick matchup, utah style baby.
What do you guys think about the new hexdrinker + its upgrade? I was thinking it might be nice to get it if I'm up against an AP lane, after brutalizer, but I'm not sure if it's better than going straight for a BT.
Apparently someone has had troubles against Maokai as Pantheon. I looked at numbers, kits, stuff and I found that unless Mao's passive (and a correct setup, obviously) allowed him to outlast Panth's mana, he shouldn't be able to compete (Q has better damage, longer cd, the drawbacks of a skillshot and a bit more mana for Mao, his ult can be a good bait during towerdives or to setup ganks). I've been unable to assess the value on Mao's passive, apart from the fact that Panth will probably spam, at least at the beginning, to start zoning Maokai. Anyone played the matchup to have a good idea on how it goes?
On March 26 2012 10:44 Alaric wrote: Apparently someone has had troubles against Maokai as Pantheon. I looked at numbers, kits, stuff and I found that unless Mao's passive (and a correct setup, obviously) allowed him to outlast Panth's mana, he shouldn't be able to compete (Q has better damage, longer cd, the drawbacks of a skillshot and a bit more mana for Mao, his ult can be a good bait during towerdives or to setup ganks). I've been unable to assess the value on Mao's passive, apart from the fact that Panth will probably spam, at least at the beginning, to start zoning Maokai. Anyone played the matchup to have a good idea on how it goes?
While I didn't play the matchup specifically from my top experience as Maokai he kinda behaves like Cho'Gath in lane. The first few levels are usually a pain, but once he has some items/levels he can start doing whatever he pleases.
Against Pantheon he can probably hold his own because he can sneak CS with proper saplings, he can support ganks incredibly well and item wise he has no problem with rushing e.g. glacial shroud.
vs Panth he can probably abuse proper runes and his passive to survive the early shit and start taking a dump on him later, but I doubt he is THAT strong vs him.
On March 20 2012 02:29 Mogwai wrote: nothing to help, that's the matchup. deal with it.
Are there any variations to the itemization that could be changed to better deal with it? Once I got BT I was fine, but before that it was near impossible. If not, I guess I'll just bend over and take it in the ass on the rare occasion that I do play him.
Also, does Manth have a straight up counter? I have yet to lose to anyone besides Yorick.
Malphite, Nunu, any super sustainer who gets a little early help (Udyr, WW, Irelia, Yorrick)
Wait, i recall you saying something about picking panth against an irelia, when you were pretty much dominating a leesin as udyr yesterday. Is it different when irelia gets a little early help?
On March 20 2012 02:29 Mogwai wrote: nothing to help, that's the matchup. deal with it.
Are there any variations to the itemization that could be changed to better deal with it? Once I got BT I was fine, but before that it was near impossible. If not, I guess I'll just bend over and take it in the ass on the rare occasion that I do play him.
Also, does Manth have a straight up counter? I have yet to lose to anyone besides Yorick.
Malphite, Nunu, any super sustainer who gets a little early help (Udyr, WW, Irelia, Yorrick)
Wait, i recall you saying something about picking panth against an irelia, when you were pretty much dominating a leesin as udyr yesterday. Is it different when irelia gets a little early help?
Panth actually probably just counters Irelia after those last nerfs, but it used to be that if Irelia's jungler camped Pantheon hard enough early that Irelia could get Wriggle's on equal farm as Pantheon, she just won the lane for free.
Sustain vs. Pantheon is just a battle of whether the opposing defense can outscale Pantheon's offense and it's really just a question of how much help they need to be able to do that.
Just played against a Singed—the first one I saw that started with some armor, dshield here. Was purple side, so I ambushed him in the river, without doing to much. Setups: arpen reds/AD quints for me, 21-0-9, ignite/flash, dblade start armor yellows/MS quints for him, probably 9-21, tp/ghost, dshield start
After the ambush, I started fighting him, a bit awkward as he took poison trail at level 1 and so I couldn't easily avoid damage. After I committed, I only managed to make him back, and he tp'd (with 3-4 pots) before I could back myself (trying to shove the lane a bit). He was going to force me to back when I received a gank, that granted me an assist (surviving at only 16 hp).
After that it was basically him tossing me into his poison travail, and using it to cover his tracks whenever he'd chug a pot, to prevent me from following him with a spear. He was a bit faster thanks to his MS quints too. As he gained levels without me killing him (I got a kill later on a second gank, but only because he tried to catch me, being low HP, and I Q-ignited him before he reached me), he was pushing harder and harder. I managed to stay even in farm bu couldn't zone nor deny him, and he'd easily toss me in his poison trail several times. My best gambit was to bait him under my tower, then stun him once he used fling and took aggro. Even then, once 6 he'd use his ult whenever needed to regen, chug pots, and basically not miss out on a lot of farm.
I kept on buying pots because I couldn't avoid his damage, and wards to prevent Nocturne dives (he'd probably have been able, but our own jungler mauled him), thus delaying my BFS by a lot after 2 dblades, brutaliser and mercs (upgraded only not to use 2 slots). He kept on gaining levels and buying parts for his RoA, so my damage kind of slowly fell off. Once I managed to buy my BFS I started damaging him again, but by then lane phase had ended.
Had it continued, he'd have won the lane by taking my tower, despite even cs. His pushing slowly gnawed at it and his poison trail zoned me off his minions; after that, I couldn't both tank the entire wave and deal with his aggressiveness. He'd probably have won a lot earlier w/o the help from those 2 ganks, too (basically, when he came back to lane with tp w/o missing exp, and he'd have forced me to back and so miss some).
I don't think Singed is a counter to Pantheon, so what did I do wrong? It seems to me that using AD quints instead of MS like I used to do was one of two main things, as I couldn't keep my distances from him and was forced to get flinged into his poison everytime he wanted, in exchange for only one spear and 1-2 autos. The other thing being the TP summoner, which proved this time far more effective than exhaust/ignite all-ins trying to kill me when I go for it. I probably should've played more carefully, patiently, and either forced him to use it w/o expanding too much (used my ignite the first time), or make slow progress to be 100% sure to kill him when I decide to try.
If you had a replay that'd make it a lot easier to judge. I feel like pantheon should easily be able to zone out a singed early even if he gets that many pots.
open boots vs singed imo. You need to be able to reliably keep your distance from him when you want to, and he cannot start boots without getting thrashed, so you retain the mobility advantage.
edit: also it sounds to me like you're not effectively using auto attacks in the early levels. Singed has to be close to creeps to be able to cs, and panth can seriously abuse that, esp in the 1-6 range.
Also, if you know you're laning against an AP champ, you can get mana regen yellows instead of armor and go crazy spear chuck mode. Not sure how your runepage/rune access situation is but if you know you're playing pantheon it's good to have one page for fighting APs and one for fighting ADs.
From my experience (which is 1400's ELO so take from what you will) Pantheon trucks Singed. Always open boots+3 and run MR blues/mana yellows. Early on, you should be able to pretty much prevent any cs with spear-auto.
I have never had any issue with singed, I open boots, and just spear the shit out of him (get a few flat mana regen yellows). You can easily stay out of his poison and still hit him with every spear.
A good trick is if you see he is going to fling you, save W and just use it the second after he flings, popping you back over to his front and avoiding getting in the poison. Then you can AA/Spear/HSS him and you get the shield too.
Meh. I just go flash/ignite Dblade with apen red, ad yellows/quints, and mr blues. Harass him with autos starting level 1. If he turns on poison just throw spear and back off; don't get into the poison if possible. With micro it's possible to harass with autos and still avoid the poison trail. Also, lvl 1 poison doesn't do much damage so don't be too scared of it, especially if you're running flat mr runes.
... oh yeah, I'm dumb. Got one of my usual rune pages for AD instead of remembering I have a page for Pantheon against magic damage. ._. Way to call it "Pantheon mid" and forget about it because I was top, I'm so dumb. Also movespeed, as I tought, to stay ahead of him whenever he wants to fling/poison. Thanks for the reminder/advice!
I dun get it, I seem to be ruining everyone with Pantheon top lane these days... only matchup I'm ever having trouble with is malphite, but everyone seems to derp into like Kennen, Nidalee or Udyr to try to counter me recently and I've just been bodying them. Pantheon real manly champ, should just play him top or Jarman jungle every game.
Uh... I'd be curious to see how Panth vs Kennen does. He's got good poke and his hard to zone because of his shuriken. Does Panth's passive blocks the mark and bonus damage from every 5th auto too? That would be huge (or not, if Kennen just attacks twice once he's at 4).
it doesn't block that proc, but I just sit in my creep wave and bully him with Qs since he can't hit his Qs on me. I dunno, matchup hasn't been bothering me at all recently.
I remember a time where Kennen was one of the few matchups where you couldn't steamroll with pantheon in mid, long time ago. How things have changed :D. Either that or Kennen players are just terrible now.
I jumped on Kennens more back then and probably didn't spec MRes at all. I dunno, it's feels easy to win poke trades if you open boots and just Q him and dodge his Qs. *shrug* I can't really explain it, I just know Kennen isn't really bugging me recently.
how does panth do against morde? i'm not too familiar with panth's matchups (i just assume i win most of them), but i had a relatively hard time against a morde after level 6. should i just not pick panth when they go morde top or is there an optimal playstyle/itemization against him?
Panth is really strong against morde before 6 because his shield is too weak and anyone who's spending hp to do anything in lane is going to get steamrolled if they let pantheon harass them.
On April 03 2012 04:12 billy5000 wrote: how does panth do against morde? i'm not too familiar with panth's matchups (i just assume i win most of them), but i had a relatively hard time against a morde after level 6. should i just not pick panth when they go morde top or is there an optimal playstyle/itemization against him?
zone him off creeps for levels 1-5 and snowball. Morde cannot fight Pantheon low levels and you should just get a massive advantage before he gets strong enough to do anything. At least that's always how it's gone for me.
On April 03 2012 04:14 TwoToneTerran wrote: Panth is really strong against morde before 6 because his shield is too weak and anyone who's spending hp to do anything in lane is going to get steamrolled if they let pantheon harass them.
On April 03 2012 04:14 TwoToneTerran wrote: Panth is really strong against morde before 6 because his shield is too weak and anyone who's spending hp to do anything in lane is going to get steamrolled if they let pantheon harass them.
Except Vlad I guess :p
Vlad gets zoned pretty hard by Panth from 1-6. By the time he hits 7 you should have a big lead on him with at least a bruta. Your spears should be chunking him pretty hard by then.
Against Morde I've found that the usual tactics (don't stand near the creeps, etc.) work well, and you can either let him charge his shield once to push the wave, then try to zone him, and just spear him before he E's, making significant health damage, but if he starts being hesitating you run the risk of pushing the wave.
I think most Vlads just spec bad tbh. I think Vlad should be going balls out counter specs to cover early lane weaknesses and then he's pretty fucking impossible to deal with.
How do you deal with Udyr? When I come across an Udyr who runs heavy armor spec with cloth5 I find that I can trade pretty well the first few levels, but once he hits lvl 4-5 I can't do all that much to him due to his turtle shield blocking my spear harass and he has enough sustain to survive pretty well 'til he gets wriggles. If I try to trade autos he just bear stuns me, hits me with tiger proc and runs away.
On April 03 2012 05:49 Mogwai wrote: I think most Vlads just spec bad tbh. I think Vlad should be going balls out counter specs to cover early lane weaknesses and then he's pretty fucking impossible to deal with.
very true, i got a special mpen armor page vs wiseguys that try to pantheon me whenever i play vlad or kass. panth is very annoying in the same way as vlad but panth runs out of mana very fast and is very very very easy to bait him as the only way to play panth is to go balls deep agro. after getting tabi his haras is very weak.
just had a game where I was down 0-2 early in lane vs. sion. I was being camped by Lee Sin from jungle, and soon all our towers got knocked down pretty quickly. I kept on getting focused, so I thought I needed tanky items, but then just thought
"fck it i'll follow this build and get GA, go balls to the wall".
We proceed to win 2 consecutive baron battles and win, I go 19/6/X. I have no idea how panth can get away surviving teamfights with nearly pure damage items but its fn awesome. He's just so good at sticking onto squishy AD/AP carries and finishing them off thanks to his skillset. Thanks for the guide.
For advice on the Panth vs X matchup, see thread page yy-zz, Morde has been asked too many times its not rly funny anymore (patches haven't changed the matchup at all recently)
I have been playing Pantheon top a shit ton lately. I hadn't played him in forever and my record was 2-8 with him since he was one of the first champs i bought and played back when I was terrible. I have been stomping kids so hard. Not only am I able to win my lane, I fuck over enemy jungler and can win mid.
The only champion I have had trouble with is Nautilus. I have only played it once but he has crazy gank assist between snare popup slow and pull which is something I find Pantheon really struggles with (and the enemy jungler was a Warwick.)
I also know Malphite is a bitch to face but thankfully no one has pulled that on me even when I pick Pantheon earlier than I would like.
I tend to go boots 3 start or dorans blade, ask jungler for a level 2 gank if they have good cc (alistar or udyr generally,) pick up an early kill or zone the shit out of them. I like boots 3 better, easier to get in range since most people start with cloth 5, and then zone while pushing the lane slowly. Go back and buy dorans blade, a ward or 2 and some pots. 2nd back get another dorans ward and pots, when I hit 6 gank mid.
I normally grab a brutalizer and then continue to truck kids. Following the guide still I get a BT and keep on trucking.
After BT i honestly like to go giants belt into atmas, leaving the giants belt and then finishing and MoM. After MoM i build Warmogs and then sell Bruta for LW, or if enemy team is stacking armor I will sell buy a LW and sell Bruta to finish something else.
I have only completed that build 2 times but you are really tanky and your damage doesn't fall off ever. I dont like playing pantheon as an assassin with GA, I don't find the revive on him to be a great thing, he is decent at cleaning up fights but I really feel like I have to carry fights so I find the tanky but still crazy damage build to work well.
I know that sounds like a lot of money late but if you get a good lead on Pantheon it is still really easy to secure kills and objectives so your cash flow is continuous. Anyway thats my thoughts after going 10-2 with him my past 12 games and carrying myself to gold.
Smash, you still feel the same about dblade first over boots? Lately I've been tending to open boots top and get my boots2 earlier (zerks usually) just so i can win my lane really, really hard.
On April 04 2012 19:43 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Smash, you still feel the same about dblade first over boots? Lately I've been tending to open boots top and get my boots2 earlier (zerks usually) just so i can win my lane really, really hard.
it's about 50/50 on which I open. depends on the matchup and, more importantly, the opposing jungler.
in lane, I'm always getting early ninja tabi or late mercs. I should actually probably use zerkers more in certain lanes when I'm purple (to take small gols), but they mostly feel like jungling boots on Panth to me.
I'm playing jungle panth and I really either stomp or feed, never inbetween. Panth seems super dependent on having a team that actually knows what to do when you gank. I've pub'd with 3 teams in a row that were too stupid to dmg wolves and leash blue properly for me
Honestly that's how most junglers tend to work. Except, you know, feeding. You don't really have to feed just because your teammates aren't responding to your attempts to gank.
Unless you're Lee Sin who can do everything from gap closing to finishing people off by yourself you have to rely on your teammates to not be complete idiots to set up a successful gank.
But really, I think Lee Sin is a little bit broken, and comparing him to anyone just isn't even fair. His early game is terrifying, and with 6 items he has almost 400 AD, 160+ MR/Armor, and ~3300 HP. But this is a Mantheon topic for Mantheon. So we gotta talk about chucking spears at people. Like a man.
Pantheon ganks are really scary, especially with dblade start. Every time I've played against one he's gotten at least 4 kills by 10 minutes, but his clear speed is so abysmal that you can just take all his ice cream while he camps the lanes. He's a lot like Nautilus; the ganks are absolutely terrifying if he can get to you, but he has pretty terrible jungle control early on. Generally you don't even want to get a wriggles on Pantheon because everything but the ward and the proc is almost completely wasted. Dblades give you enough lifesteal with the HSS passive and you want to get a BF Sword as soon as possible (unless you're doing some kind of tankier pansy build). Anything in this game can work, but don't expect to consistently perform well against good players with it.
Usually the only time I die early game is when I get jungle invaded when my team refuses to help or when top/mid doesn't dive when I ask them to
Also, what's the best way to deal with Pantheons dropoff lategame and how should I act in teamfights? Usually I sit back and chuck spears until someone gets low and I can jump on them and combo or I jump on the AD carry as soon as the rest of their team blows all their CC/ults. Am I doing it right?
Smash mentioned using HSS to zone people off your carry, along with your W to peel. If I remember well, a full HSS with 2 BTs + LW is along the lines of 1200-1300 physical damage, which is a lot if you can hit several people with it. But don't go out of your way to pull it off since you're still kinda squishy.
If he wants to not come out behind in health when trading with you he's going to oom himself a LOT faster than you will.
You should really just play it like any other lane. I've only recently picked up Pantheon, but it's definitely one of the easiest matchups to play for me. Do the smashgizmo thang, try to duel him at level 1, he'll either run away and lose health, or he'll try to fight you, lose the fight because of blocks, and then run away and take another spear. Thanks to the HSS passive, you have a lot of lifesteal from just one dblade.
If he wants to E>auto>Q>W away, he's going to run out of mana way faster than you will with just spears. If he E's you with shield up, you can wait for the auto, immediately W to block the Q if he doesn't turn around immediately after the stun, and then just auto attack him as he runs away with his stupid monkey tail between his legs. The shield really just ruins Wukong's day.
I'm far from good, but Wukong is still countless miles away from being a threat to the Mantheon.
Hey smash, will the doran opening still be good after the next patch? Or would you go something else? (obviously talking of scenarios where the other jungler is scary enough early that you need to open boots+3)
Hey smash, will the doran opening still be good after the next patch? Or would you go something else? (obviously talking of scenarios where the other jungler is scary enough early that you need to open boots+3)
-20 hp on it = you lose a buffer of about 1/2 minion attacks when playing aggressively, but that's about it?
Hey smash, will the doran opening still be good after the next patch? Or would you go something else? (obviously talking of scenarios where the other jungler is scary enough early that you need to open boots+3)
-20 hp on it = you lose a buffer of about 1/2 minion attacks when playing aggressively, but that's about it?
on the surface it seems pretty trivial yeah, but I still can't help but think of the number of times I've got first blood while surviving with barely any HP. There doesnt seem to be much room for mistakes when you do blade vs a cloth+5pot opening. makes me wonder if I should just do pot opening myself and get those blades later.
Well boots+3 openings are already really strong in most cases since the mobility is great for avoiding ganks. Dblades are still going to be very core on Panth but you'll probably want to pick them up later.
Hey smash, will the doran opening still be good after the next patch? Or would you go something else? (obviously talking of scenarios where the other jungler is scary enough early that you need to open boots+3)
-20 hp on it = you lose a buffer of about 1/2 minion attacks when playing aggressively, but that's about it?
on the surface it seems pretty trivial yeah, but I still can't help but think of the number of times I've got first blood while surviving with barely any HP. There doesnt seem to be much room for mistakes when you do blade vs a cloth+5pot opening. makes me wonder if I should just do pot opening myself and get those blades later.
I wouldnt recommend it. Either start boots and pots and maybe get 2 dorans later, or just start with dorans. If you go cloth pots then dorans then boots, you'll be delaying your core too much.
I got to experience Panth vs Malphite the other day. Boy was that an absolutely miserable experience for me.
Smash how do you feel about getting phage after brutalizer but before BT? I've been messing around with 1-2 dorans --> Bruta --> Phage with great success recently. I almost never upgrade it unless I'm like at max items, but I've found that it gives me a good balance of offense and some increased survivibility which I feel like Panth needs to survive mid-game teamfights and skirmishes.
I've been trying out bilgewater cutlass on panth. it's good when you don't run exhaust and gives you that little edge you need to really be a ganking beast midgame, the only problem is you dont wanna build gunblade later and i just end up selling it to finish my frozen mallet or atmas
On April 15 2012 11:31 PrinceXizor wrote: anyone else jungle panth? he clears really fast and safely.
u jungle panth for his ganks. not for his clears. his early ganks are super strong and once you hit lvl 6 you can almost always secure a kill at bot lane assuming they're not completely pushed.
On April 14 2012 23:16 Lancer723 wrote: I got to experience Panth vs Malphite the other day. Boy was that an absolutely miserable experience for me.
Smash how do you feel about getting phage after brutalizer but before BT? I've been messing around with 1-2 dorans --> Bruta --> Phage with great success recently. I almost never upgrade it unless I'm like at max items, but I've found that it gives me a good balance of offense and some increased survivibility which I feel like Panth needs to survive mid-game teamfights and skirmishes.
I would only do phage before BF if I went zerker greaves in lane.
I apologize if people have discussed this before, but what midlane matchups does Panth lose to besides Kennen/Post-9 Vlad? I know he can beat Morgana with intelligent play, but it's pretty hard. Cassieopeia can also zone you off the creep wave IIRC.
Ahri is annoying because she's got greater range than you and the means to reach you as her Q goes through minions. Brand is annoying too because if you W him he'll EQW you immediatly, breaking your combo with his stun.
Mid matchups are typically annoying at worst pending ganks. It's hard to zone properly with Pantheon at mid without exposing yourself to easy ganks. Vlad, Morde and Kennen all win if they spec properly and bide their time. Long range farmers like Morg and Brand can make it a freefarm lane by just shoving with blue. Left to your own devices though, Pantheon will trash most mids.
Is Singed a counter to mantheon? Like i had a guy pick Singed against him, and pick dorans ring as his first item. I said "Ill babysit top in the beginning because i think singed v pantheon will be hard" and 3 guys from my team were "Lol no, singed automatically counters Pantheon" and i just cant see how. :<
OH well, they sent pantheon mid and kennen top, so did not get to see that counter in action.
Pantheon dumps on singed early on like he does everyone without massive inherent sustain. Singed has to eat tons of spears to lasthit early and if he flips you you can literally just start beating on him since you're now in the way of his retreat path.
Hey Mogwai, I noticed you made the Wukong thread as well.
Wu is my secondary main, and I usually have a lot of trouble playing him verse Pantheon. I feel like Pantheon directly counters my Wu, and I have trouble with Tyrn also.
I've been using various different strategy for versing Pantheon, but if I try to lasthit, I get a spear to the face, and if I try to trade blows, he always come out on top through his passive.
The only thing I've been doing is decoying right when he chucks his spear and stuns me, then I go in to deal the damage after his skills have been used up...
You don't. You do your best to farm early and take solace in the fact that once you hit six you can blow him up with some jungle help and that your lategame is significantly better.
I've been building Pantheon really tanky so I can sky fall into the middle of a fight after its initiated and do the 1000 dmg and then stay in the middle and pound faces.
I roughly go Dblade--> Beserker Boots> Phage> Zeal> Tri Force> Frozen Warhammer After FH I either get Force of Nature for more survivability if the casters are fed or Madreds Blood Razer if we are steam rolling team fights.
I've had really good success so far because I can dominate my lane early on with just boots and Dblade and then TF allows me too keep pushing hard and usually kill my tower after racking up some kills and denying CS.
Just curious as to how viable you guys think this is.
If you want MR/tankiness, I'd rather just go for MoM as MR item, since FoN will only get so good with a good HP pool and some armor, while MoM is generally great for burst and increases your damage output whenever you're focused. I wouldn't go MBR either, it relies on attack speed and completely ignores Panth's superb AD scaling. Even when going a tanky route, you should still make sure to get AD and lifesteal to make the better out of his HSS' AD scaling and "passive" lifesteal (autocrits sup).
On April 21 2012 22:45 GhostOwl wrote: Hey Mogwai, I noticed you made the Wukong thread as well.
Wu is my secondary main, and I usually have a lot of trouble playing him verse Pantheon. I feel like Pantheon directly counters my Wu, and I have trouble with Tyrn also.
I've been using various different strategy for versing Pantheon, but if I try to lasthit, I get a spear to the face, and if I try to trade blows, he always come out on top through his passive.
The only thing I've been doing is decoying right when he chucks his spear and stuns me, then I go in to deal the damage after his skills have been used up...
How do you fight Pantheon as Wu?
This is the Pantheon thread so I'll just reply to the Pantheon matchup here.
Pantheon destroys Wu up until 6, at which point Wu can start threatening Pantheon with his ult. If they're left alone, Pantheon will just beat Wukong, but if Wu can get a gank and a small lead, he can steamroll the lane by going balls out with his ult on every CD.
If you're looking for ways to outplay Pantheon with Wu, you should be looking to get on top of him by using W to stealth, then go for auto-attack to break his passive -> Q hit before he can recharge it, then use E + R on him while your Q armor reduction is still in effect for maximum burst. You can't trade with him without your ult though, so you really have to be able to kill him in 1 combo, which is why ganks are so huge for Wukong in the matchup.
On April 26 2012 16:40 tokicheese wrote: I've been building Pantheon really tanky so I can sky fall into the middle of a fight after its initiated and do the 1000 dmg and then stay in the middle and pound faces.
I roughly go Dblade--> Beserker Boots> Phage> Zeal> Tri Force> Frozen Warhammer After FH I either get Force of Nature for more survivability if the casters are fed or Madreds Blood Razer if we are steam rolling team fights.
I've had really good success so far because I can dominate my lane early on with just boots and Dblade and then TF allows me too keep pushing hard and usually kill my tower after racking up some kills and denying CS.
Just curious as to how viable you guys think this is.
The build is bad and completely nonviable at a high level of play, but if it works for you, do w/e you like. You're completely wasting Pantheon's potential by not building high AD items though.
I think how ult->stun works is when the ult is casting, you can queue up another skill. What I mean by the "skill casting" is when you use the ult, the bar first fills up, then depletes - as it's depleting, if you cast W on a valid target, it'll queue up the W. I think this also means queuing up a spear for weak targets or hss for entering a fight late might be possible.
On May 07 2012 13:35 affinity wrote: I think how ult->stun works is when the ult is casting, you can queue up another skill. What I mean by the "skill casting" is when you use the ult, the bar first fills up, then depletes - as it's depleting, if you cast W on a valid target, it'll queue up the W. I think this also means queuing up a spear for weak targets or hss for entering a fight late might be possible.
I always thought of it simply that the game register Pantheon as having landed as soon as the landing animation starts, meaning you can stun as the explosion animation is still happening.
On May 07 2012 13:35 affinity wrote: I think how ult->stun works is when the ult is casting, you can queue up another skill. What I mean by the "skill casting" is when you use the ult, the bar first fills up, then depletes - as it's depleting, if you cast W on a valid target, it'll queue up the W. I think this also means queuing up a spear for weak targets or hss for entering a fight late might be possible.
It is. There's nothing funnier than seeing your spear come from flying from the air as you land.
On May 07 2012 13:35 affinity wrote: I think how ult->stun works is when the ult is casting, you can queue up another skill. What I mean by the "skill casting" is when you use the ult, the bar first fills up, then depletes - as it's depleting, if you cast W on a valid target, it'll queue up the W. I think this also means queuing up a spear for weak targets or hss for entering a fight late might be possible.
It is. There's nothing funnier than seeing your spear come from flying from the air as you land.
The best is when they flash out of range and you get a super long range spear. You can't escape the spear of destiny
On May 07 2012 13:35 affinity wrote: I think how ult->stun works is when the ult is casting, you can queue up another skill. What I mean by the "skill casting" is when you use the ult, the bar first fills up, then depletes - as it's depleting, if you cast W on a valid target, it'll queue up the W. I think this also means queuing up a spear for weak targets or hss for entering a fight late might be possible.
It is. There's nothing funnier than seeing your spear come from flying from the air as you land.
The best is when they flash out of range and you get a super long range spear. You can't escape the spear of destiny
I prefer buffering stun, and then having them flash... Only to be lept on from afar. Picked up this and some other great shit from this thread, like tower diving and casting + canceling e immediately in between auto / q, to re stack passive. I don't recall if it's in the op, but with correct skill usage you can block like 3 out of 4 hits, which is atrocious considering how much dmg panth can put out during that time.
Buyed Pantheon this weekend and had some fun games, he definetely is one of those champs that are really satisfying to play. As i was playing blind pick, next game i ran into shen. Holy cow. I do understand that shen is permabanned at my levl for a reason, but holy cow. I am pretty sure that Shen is on another powerlevel right now and betas most top lanes, but that was just ridiculous. He started shield and outtraded me, out sustained me and all of that without needing mana. So is there even a slightest chance of fighting a highsustain heroe like Shen or GP or Yorick? Warwick got destroyed because he couldn't fight back, but which heroes should i, by any means, avoid if possible? And if i do get them in blind pick, how do i play? That shen just get me to 50%, then he dove me, getting 3-4 tower hits, me stunning him with w and still getting away. Wtf?
On May 07 2012 19:50 Broetchenholer wrote: Buyed Pantheon this weekend and had some fun games, he definetely is one of those champs that are really satisfying to play. As i was playing blind pick, next game i ran into shen. Holy cow. I do understand that shen is permabanned at my levl for a reason, but holy cow. I am pretty sure that Shen is on another powerlevel right now and betas most top lanes, but that was just ridiculous. He started shield and outtraded me, out sustained me and all of that without needing mana. So is there even a slightest chance of fighting a highsustain heroe like Shen or GP or Yorick? Warwick got destroyed because he couldn't fight back, but which heroes should i, by any means, avoid if possible? And if i do get them in blind pick, how do i play? That shen just get me to 50%, then he dove me, getting 3-4 tower hits, me stunning him with w and still getting away. Wtf?
Panth vs Shen is pretty much an autolose match up. I didn't know either, until my first experience with it. It's one of the worst scenarios that can happen as a Panth player. As Panth you want to be avoiding any champion that has a spammable shield or very high regen. Pretty much anyone that can shrug off your harass and can beat you in a war of attrition with ease is going to make you have a bad day.
You should be able to beat GP though. GP is different from Shen and Yorick mainly because his Q counts as a basic attack so your shield blocks his harass, and he runs out of mana much more if he's leveling his W for sustain (whereas Shen can spam his Q and his W pretty much for free, and Yorick naturally builds mana items while also being able to harass and heal with his E). Generally it seems that you can outtrade GP but Shen shits on you and Yorick is just an asshole.
I really don't think Shen beats most top lanes or anything like that though. He's "safe" I guess, but he still has bad match ups. He just happens to be really good against Panth.
On May 07 2012 19:50 Broetchenholer wrote: Buyed Pantheon this weekend and had some fun games, he definetely is one of those champs that are really satisfying to play. As i was playing blind pick, next game i ran into shen. Holy cow. I do understand that shen is permabanned at my levl for a reason, but holy cow. I am pretty sure that Shen is on another powerlevel right now and betas most top lanes, but that was just ridiculous. He started shield and outtraded me, out sustained me and all of that without needing mana. So is there even a slightest chance of fighting a highsustain heroe like Shen or GP or Yorick? Warwick got destroyed because he couldn't fight back, but which heroes should i, by any means, avoid if possible? And if i do get them in blind pick, how do i play? That shen just get me to 50%, then he dove me, getting 3-4 tower hits, me stunning him with w and still getting away. Wtf?
Panth vs Shen is pretty much an autolose match up. I didn't know either, until my first experience with it. It's one of the worst scenarios that can happen as a Panth player. As Panth you want to be avoiding any champion that has a spammable shield or very high regen. Pretty much anyone that can shrug off your harass and can beat you in a war of attrition with ease is going to make you have a bad day.
You should be able to beat GP though. GP is different from Shen and Yorick mainly because his Q counts as a basic attack so your shield blocks his harass, and he runs out of mana much more if he's leveling his W for sustain (whereas Shen can spam his Q and his W pretty much for free, and Yorick naturally builds mana items while also being able to harass and heal with his E). Generally it seems that you can outtrade GP but Shen shits on you and Yorick is just an asshole.
I really don't think Shen beats most top lanes or anything like that though. He's "safe" I guess, but he still has bad match ups. He just happens to be really good against Panth.
rofl, W maxing GP running out of mana. very fanneh joek.
GP W costs 65 mana. Period. Mana never goes up. It heals 80/150/220/290/360. It is the single most mana efficient heal in lane in the game by level 5. By a lot. This is why I tell people that GP is perfectly able to beat Pantheon in lane. You just play like a poon, sit back, eat your oranges with a defensive spec and he can't stop you from farming.
GP's actually pretty much impossible to lose a lane with if you just show up with 0/21/9, defensive quints and W focus. The character's really really stupid.
As for Shen, well, he's really not that bad. It should be pretty much a free farm lane both ways with ganks being fairly lethal either way. He can run you out of mana if you're throwing spears at him and he's maxing W, but if you see him maxing W, you can just say fuck it and farm. If instead he maxes his Q, then you trade spears for vorpals and come out fairly even.
On May 07 2012 13:35 affinity wrote: I think how ult->stun works is when the ult is casting, you can queue up another skill. What I mean by the "skill casting" is when you use the ult, the bar first fills up, then depletes - as it's depleting, if you cast W on a valid target, it'll queue up the W. I think this also means queuing up a spear for weak targets or hss for entering a fight late might be possible.
I always thought of it simply that the game register Pantheon as having landed as soon as the landing animation starts, meaning you can stun as the explosion animation is still happening.
Oh, I think you may be right! One time I tried hail-mary stealing baron by through ult but got stunned by veigar while in the air..
Also agree that Smash #1 guide maker. Been trying to pick up some other champs during their free weeks but the information in other champ threads is nowhere close to how much is in this thread.
So, it seems like Riven has sort of surpassed Pantheon as a Top Lane AD Assassin at this point. Do you think that Pantheon really only has a place as a mid champ and a splitpusher now?
On May 18 2012 05:29 HughMyron wrote: So, it seems like Riven has sort of surpassed Pantheon as a Top Lane AD Assassin at this point. Do you think that Pantheon really only has a place as a mid champ and a splitpusher now?
Riven is a bullshit character but Pantheon has a fuckton more zone control and beats her ass 1v1 in lane. I don't know how many times I need to say this on the forums before it sinks in, but Pantheon with 6 second CD HSS is insanely potent in teamfights if you're careful with your positioning. Riven is very much an all-in character, who needs to stagedive opposing teams and kill the shit out of them with her AD that scales off AD which also scales up all her other stupid bullshit abilities, and she's great at that, but she's binary in lane and straight up loses to a number of tops and faceplants in teamfights unless she's far enough ahead to get away with diving into the opposing team.
I guess what I'm saying is 2 things: 1. pick Pantheon and stomp Rivens in lane 2. stop pretending you're an assassin when you're a babysitter lategame
On May 18 2012 05:29 HughMyron wrote: So, it seems like Riven has sort of surpassed Pantheon as a Top Lane AD Assassin at this point. Do you think that Pantheon really only has a place as a mid champ and a splitpusher now?
Riven is a bullshit character but Pantheon has a fuckton more zone control and beats her ass 1v1 in lane. I don't know how many times I need to say this on the forums before it sinks in, but Pantheon with 6 second CD HSS is insanely potent in teamfights if you're careful with your positioning. Riven is very much an all-in character, who needs to stagedive opposing teams and kill the shit out of them with her AD that scales off AD which also scales up all her other stupid bullshit abilities, and she's great at that, but she's binary in lane and straight up loses to a number of tops and faceplants in teamfights unless she's far enough ahead to get away with diving into the opposing team.
I guess what I'm saying is 2 things: 1. pick Pantheon and stomp Rivens in lane 2. stop pretending you're an assassin when you're a babysitter lategame
Out of curiosity Smash, do you have any replays of Pantheon vs Riven? In my low level experience I always roll over Pantheon as Riven, and my buddy who plays Panth/Teemo exclusively is always complaining about how Riven wrecks his day as Panth specifically.
I know Panth beats and Zones Riven pretty hard early on, but as a Riven player I feel like once you hit 4/5 Riven starts to pull ahead because you can easily shield spears and dance your way out of HSS. Hell, Goldfather8 calls the lane from Rivens perspective "surprisingly easy, just shield his spears and watch him run out of mana" and says Riven can kill Panth at pretty well anytime during the lane.
On May 07 2012 19:50 Broetchenholer wrote: Buyed Pantheon this weekend and had some fun games, he definetely is one of those champs that are really satisfying to play. As i was playing blind pick, next game i ran into shen. Holy cow. I do understand that shen is permabanned at my levl for a reason, but holy cow. I am pretty sure that Shen is on another powerlevel right now and betas most top lanes, but that was just ridiculous. He started shield and outtraded me, out sustained me and all of that without needing mana. So is there even a slightest chance of fighting a highsustain heroe like Shen or GP or Yorick? Warwick got destroyed because he couldn't fight back, but which heroes should i, by any means, avoid if possible? And if i do get them in blind pick, how do i play? That shen just get me to 50%, then he dove me, getting 3-4 tower hits, me stunning him with w and still getting away. Wtf?
Panth vs Shen is pretty much an autolose match up. I didn't know either, until my first experience with it. It's one of the worst scenarios that can happen as a Panth player. As Panth you want to be avoiding any champion that has a spammable shield or very high regen. Pretty much anyone that can shrug off your harass and can beat you in a war of attrition with ease is going to make you have a bad day.
You should be able to beat GP though. GP is different from Shen and Yorick mainly because his Q counts as a basic attack so your shield blocks his harass, and he runs out of mana much more if he's leveling his W for sustain (whereas Shen can spam his Q and his W pretty much for free, and Yorick naturally builds mana items while also being able to harass and heal with his E). Generally it seems that you can outtrade GP but Shen shits on you and Yorick is just an asshole.
I really don't think Shen beats most top lanes or anything like that though. He's "safe" I guess, but he still has bad match ups. He just happens to be really good against Panth.
rofl, W maxing GP running out of mana. very fanneh joek.
GP W costs 65 mana. Period. Mana never goes up. It heals 80/150/220/290/360. It is the single most mana efficient heal in lane in the game by level 5. By a lot. This is why I tell people that GP is perfectly able to beat Pantheon in lane. You just play like a poon, sit back, eat your oranges with a defensive spec and he can't stop you from farming.
GP's actually pretty much impossible to lose a lane with if you just show up with 0/21/9, defensive quints and W focus. The character's really really stupid.
As for Shen, well, he's really not that bad. It should be pretty much a free farm lane both ways with ganks being fairly lethal either way. He can run you out of mana if you're throwing spears at him and he's maxing W, but if you see him maxing W, you can just say fuck it and farm. If instead he maxes his Q, then you trade spears for vorpals and come out fairly even.
This is just math but 360 life every 18 seconds isn't enough to heal all of panth's spears. If panth hits for 180 damage on each spear, and he throws two spears every 8 seconds then he can eat through the heal in 8 seconds. Yeah gp can sit out of spear range, but as long as panth doesn't run out of mana, he can trade effectively enough such that one of them has to leave lane.
Nunu heals for 345 every 10 seconds for 60 mana. I've beaten panth as max Q nunu but he brought me pretty low too, and with chalice and mana regen runes on both sides the fight probably comes down to skill rather than defensiveness being stronger.
At the very least it isn't that clear who wins in lane, especially with jungler intervention.
On May 18 2012 05:29 HughMyron wrote: So, it seems like Riven has sort of surpassed Pantheon as a Top Lane AD Assassin at this point. Do you think that Pantheon really only has a place as a mid champ and a splitpusher now?
Riven is a bullshit character but Pantheon has a fuckton more zone control and beats her ass 1v1 in lane. I don't know how many times I need to say this on the forums before it sinks in, but Pantheon with 6 second CD HSS is insanely potent in teamfights if you're careful with your positioning. Riven is very much an all-in character, who needs to stagedive opposing teams and kill the shit out of them with her AD that scales off AD which also scales up all her other stupid bullshit abilities, and she's great at that, but she's binary in lane and straight up loses to a number of tops and faceplants in teamfights unless she's far enough ahead to get away with diving into the opposing team.
I guess what I'm saying is 2 things: 1. pick Pantheon and stomp Rivens in lane 2. stop pretending you're an assassin when you're a babysitter lategame
Out of curiosity Smash, do you have any replays of Pantheon vs Riven? In my low level experience I always roll over Pantheon as Riven, and my buddy who plays Panth/Teemo exclusively is always complaining about how Riven wrecks his day as Panth specifically.
I know Panth beats and Zones Riven pretty hard early on, but as a Riven player I feel like once you hit 4/5 Riven starts to pull ahead because you can easily shield spears and dance your way out of HSS. Hell, Goldfather8 calls the lane from Rivens perspective "surprisingly easy, just shield his spears and watch him run out of mana" and says Riven can kill Panth at pretty well anytime during the lane.
On May 18 2012 05:29 HughMyron wrote: So, it seems like Riven has sort of surpassed Pantheon as a Top Lane AD Assassin at this point. Do you think that Pantheon really only has a place as a mid champ and a splitpusher now?
Riven is a bullshit character but Pantheon has a fuckton more zone control and beats her ass 1v1 in lane. I don't know how many times I need to say this on the forums before it sinks in, but Pantheon with 6 second CD HSS is insanely potent in teamfights if you're careful with your positioning. Riven is very much an all-in character, who needs to stagedive opposing teams and kill the shit out of them with her AD that scales off AD which also scales up all her other stupid bullshit abilities, and she's great at that, but she's binary in lane and straight up loses to a number of tops and faceplants in teamfights unless she's far enough ahead to get away with diving into the opposing team.
I guess what I'm saying is 2 things: 1. pick Pantheon and stomp Rivens in lane 2. stop pretending you're an assassin when you're a babysitter lategame
Out of curiosity Smash, do you have any replays of Pantheon vs Riven? In my low level experience I always roll over Pantheon as Riven, and my buddy who plays Panth/Teemo exclusively is always complaining about how Riven wrecks his day as Panth specifically.
I know Panth beats and Zones Riven pretty hard early on, but as a Riven player I feel like once you hit 4/5 Riven starts to pull ahead because you can easily shield spears and dance your way out of HSS. Hell, Goldfather8 calls the lane from Rivens perspective "surprisingly easy, just shield his spears and watch him run out of mana" and says Riven can kill Panth at pretty well anytime during the lane.
On May 07 2012 19:50 Broetchenholer wrote: Buyed Pantheon this weekend and had some fun games, he definetely is one of those champs that are really satisfying to play. As i was playing blind pick, next game i ran into shen. Holy cow. I do understand that shen is permabanned at my levl for a reason, but holy cow. I am pretty sure that Shen is on another powerlevel right now and betas most top lanes, but that was just ridiculous. He started shield and outtraded me, out sustained me and all of that without needing mana. So is there even a slightest chance of fighting a highsustain heroe like Shen or GP or Yorick? Warwick got destroyed because he couldn't fight back, but which heroes should i, by any means, avoid if possible? And if i do get them in blind pick, how do i play? That shen just get me to 50%, then he dove me, getting 3-4 tower hits, me stunning him with w and still getting away. Wtf?
Panth vs Shen is pretty much an autolose match up. I didn't know either, until my first experience with it. It's one of the worst scenarios that can happen as a Panth player. As Panth you want to be avoiding any champion that has a spammable shield or very high regen. Pretty much anyone that can shrug off your harass and can beat you in a war of attrition with ease is going to make you have a bad day.
You should be able to beat GP though. GP is different from Shen and Yorick mainly because his Q counts as a basic attack so your shield blocks his harass, and he runs out of mana much more if he's leveling his W for sustain (whereas Shen can spam his Q and his W pretty much for free, and Yorick naturally builds mana items while also being able to harass and heal with his E). Generally it seems that you can outtrade GP but Shen shits on you and Yorick is just an asshole.
I really don't think Shen beats most top lanes or anything like that though. He's "safe" I guess, but he still has bad match ups. He just happens to be really good against Panth.
rofl, W maxing GP running out of mana. very fanneh joek.
GP W costs 65 mana. Period. Mana never goes up. It heals 80/150/220/290/360. It is the single most mana efficient heal in lane in the game by level 5. By a lot. This is why I tell people that GP is perfectly able to beat Pantheon in lane. You just play like a poon, sit back, eat your oranges with a defensive spec and he can't stop you from farming.
GP's actually pretty much impossible to lose a lane with if you just show up with 0/21/9, defensive quints and W focus. The character's really really stupid.
As for Shen, well, he's really not that bad. It should be pretty much a free farm lane both ways with ganks being fairly lethal either way. He can run you out of mana if you're throwing spears at him and he's maxing W, but if you see him maxing W, you can just say fuck it and farm. If instead he maxes his Q, then you trade spears for vorpals and come out fairly even.
This is just math but 360 life every 18 seconds isn't enough to heal all of panth's spears. If panth hits for 180 damage on each spear, and he throws two spears every 8 seconds then he can eat through the heal in 8 seconds. Yeah gp can sit out of spear range, but as long as panth doesn't run out of mana, he can trade effectively enough such that one of them has to leave lane.
Nunu heals for 345 every 10 seconds for 60 mana. I've beaten panth as max Q nunu but he brought me pretty low too, and with chalice and mana regen runes on both sides the fight probably comes down to skill rather than defensiveness being stronger.
At the very least it isn't that clear who wins in lane, especially with jungler intervention.
it's a matter of mana and scaling. nunu can eventually win the lane, but he scales like ass, so you lose in the long run anyway. the gp vs. pantheon matchup isn't about CDR bottlenecks, it's about mana bottlenecks and pantheon just can't keep up with remove scurvy's mana efficiency. GP wins the lane by attrition, not by conventional like, getting up in CS or kills. You usually lose in CS with Gp, but can build gold/10s and stay alive and match/beat his global presence + scaling.
Pantheon's Q outdamage's Riven's E, since Panth maxes Q first and Riven maxes E second. Also the cooldown difference is huge.
Using HSS against a Riven is pretty stupid since she can easily interrupt it, along with the fact that HSS isn't that strong until you get items. On Pantheon, I sorta see HSS as the equivalent of Akali's Crescent Slash earlygame: can help you push a bit and give you some supplemental DPS in ganking/laning, but pretty much a waste of mana/energy otherwise.
Except that when Pantheon gets AD, HSS becomes hella beast. Akali's Crescent Slash remains poor because of Energy constraints.
On May 18 2012 16:17 HughMyron wrote: Pantheon's Q outdamage's Riven's E, since Panth maxes Q first and Riven maxes E second. Also the cooldown difference is huge.
Using HSS against a Riven is pretty stupid since she can easily interrupt it, along with the fact that HSS isn't that strong until you get items. On Pantheon, I sorta see HSS as the equivalent of Akali's Crescent Slash earlygame: can help you push a bit and give you some supplemental DPS in ganking/laning, but pretty much a waste of mana/energy otherwise.
Except that when Pantheon gets AD, HSS becomes hella beast. Akali's Crescent Slash remains poor because of Energy constraints.
Rivens who are good at the lane max E over W. Beating a Riven who's maxing W in lane with Pantheon is like shooting fish in a barrel. Against E max Riven, the lane can get annoying, but I've still won the lane pretty much every time I haven't gotten completely camped.
HSS gets good vs. Riven after your brutalizer. Even though it's still not up to great mana efficiency @ that point (only level 2 or 3 HSS at that point), it gives you another way to put damage on from over Melee Range, which you need in order to make noticeable damage stick through her shield.
Hey Smash, I've noticed while watching your stream that when your lane opponent goes heavy armor (usually a chain vest) you tend to skip the brutalizer and go straight for your bloodthirster. Why is that? Is the bruta just more of a lane domination item, and you're better off powering up a BT if you're not going to be able to outright kill them?
On May 19 2012 04:07 Node wrote: Hey Smash, I've noticed while watching your stream that when your lane opponent goes heavy armor (usually a chain vest) you tend to skip the brutalizer and go straight for your bloodthirster. Why is that? Is the bruta just more of a lane domination item, and you're better off powering up a BT if you're not going to be able to outright kill them?
Brut is good vs low armor targets because it's flat arpen. When your opponent gets a chain vest, you can be much more reliable on getting a BT cus of your % arp mastery and then eventually get LW.
On May 19 2012 04:07 Node wrote: Hey Smash, I've noticed while watching your stream that when your lane opponent goes heavy armor (usually a chain vest) you tend to skip the brutalizer and go straight for your bloodthirster. Why is that? Is the bruta just more of a lane domination item, and you're better off powering up a BT if you're not going to be able to outright kill them?
First response in the thread was right. Flat ArPen is pretty lackluster vs. high Armor, so you're better off just stacking AD and getting an early LW at that point. You will actually notice that I go BT -> Brutalizer a lot in these lanes though and that's because when I'm roaming around in the midgame, brutalizer makes a huge impact for its cost. If the brutalizer would come super late though, I will just skip it altogether for the early last whisper.
On May 19 2012 04:50 HughMyron wrote: If the opponent is doing something stupid and has over 110 or so Armor in lane, sometimes I'll just get LW haha.
Or switch with mid so Cassieopeia can beat up on his 40 MR ass.
I've done LW first builds, but BT first is stronger. The LW doesn't really perform up to it's cost unless you have a hefty chunk of AD. Also, the lifesteal on BT helps loads in lanes where they stack armor and hope to attrition you out of the lane.
On May 18 2012 22:24 Alaric wrote: About the Riven VOD: she's bad, she tried to trade with Panth at level 1.
Eh, Riven is fairly strong level 1. She just misassessed the situation (Panth had DBlade).
Also, Pantheon is a pretty rare champion, so she might not really know his capabilities.
I actually feel like I see an awful lot of Panth in my featured games (like, one of the games has a Panth more often than not) -- maybe he's getting more popular? Or maybe the featured games algorithm somehow knows I wanna watch Panth. Or maybe I'm just nuts.
I don't see that much. And all I saw (hovering between 1200 et 1300 ranked, ~1450 stable normals) where pretty terrible, esp. more so in top lane than in the jungle, except for maybe two. Chalice first still common...
Also, do you sometimes have problems casting HSS? There are times where I just can't do anything about it. Last game I pressed E, clicked within the cone, three times in a row, and it didn't cast at all (cost me a death instead of a kill, and probably a free feed lane as well). It happens quite often actually, and I just can't get why.
Apparently I picked the best day ever to play Pantheon...
Of the six games I've played, three were against talon's, two were akali's, and the other one was GP. I like fping Panth and watching my opponent counterpick themselves.
Best spree of six games ever, 77/8/49 over the course of them... damn it nice to get really big.
On May 19 2012 07:31 Alaric wrote: I don't see that much. And all I saw (hovering between 1200 et 1300 ranked, ~1450 stable normals) where pretty terrible, esp. more so in top lane than in the jungle, except for maybe two. Chalice first still common...
Also, do you sometimes have problems casting HSS? There are times where I just can't do anything about it. Last game I pressed E, clicked within the cone, three times in a row, and it didn't cast at all (cost me a death instead of a kill, and probably a free feed lane as well). It happens quite often actually, and I just can't get why.
Were you diving? I think if you angle is wrong against the turret or some terrain you will get a grayed out or red cone since he doesnt have room to cast it
Also I never see any other Pantheons, I am the only person I ever see pick him.
I know it's like this for Annie and Mordekaiser, but I've never had the red cone for Pantheon, even when it doesn't cast. There were both a Teemo and I in a lane bush top, I was facing the wall and clicking on the Teemo to make sure the angle was right (so I wasn't clicking into the wall either), and the cone just disappeared but nothing else happened, so everytime I have to press E again then click.
It has happened several times even with no obstacles whatsoever too, but if I recall well every time the enemy champ I was aiming for (and generally clicking on) was very close to me (as it generally occurs when I try to W->E).
He's hard countered by Malphite and has a tenuous hold on matchups with Rumble, Yorrick, and Udyr. Most other bruisers can also leverage an advantage from their jungler lane camping Pantheon into rolling the lane via armor stacking (like if Riven, Renek, Irelia, or Jarvan gets some early help in the lane they can body him).
I think I'm gonna play Pantheon whenever I see a Kennen top. I may not be as useful later on, but I need to trash that damn yordle once in a while to vent all the frustration from his relaxed match-ups. :<
Yeah but my ranked Elo is still below 1200 and my normal Elo is only 1450 so people are bad were I live and they don't know of a properly played Pantheon (that is, who doesn't rush atmogs).
Why do people think Pantheon falls off? I think thats the biggest thing I've really noticed since I started playing him a lot. Everyone thinks when the 20 minute mark hits you gonna be useless or something. He no AD carry or anything, but with 2xdorans, LW, and BT Panths E does like 894 AoE damage in three quarters of a second.... his Q hit for 454. He also has reasonable cooldowns, a passive that scales really well, AND he is always a global presence because of his ult.
Its not too unreasonable to ult into an already commited teamfight and instastun the AD carry killing them before your W's stun even finished. Even if you can't do that, you able to use your E two or three times in a teamfight chances are your team won the team fight.
Am I missing something, or does Panth not scale just as good if not better than any AP carry in the game?
On May 23 2012 04:58 iCanada wrote: Why do people think Pantheon falls off? I think thats the biggest thing I've really noticed since I started playing him a lot. Everyone thinks when the 20 minute mark hits you gonna be useless or something. He no AD carry or anything, but with 2xdorans, LW, and BT Panths E does like 894 AoE damage in three quarters of a second.... his Q hit for 454. He also has reasonable cooldowns, a passive that scales really well, AND he is always a global presence because of his ult.
Its not too unreasonable to ult into an already commited teamfight and instastun the AD carry killing them before your W's stun even finished. Even if you can't do that, you able to use your E two or three times in a teamfight chances are your team won the team fight.
Am I missing something, or does Panth not scale just as good if not better than any AP carry in the game?
It's not the fact he deals no damage, it's that he has to come really close to do so. There's a point where you just get gibbed and there's little you can do about it.
On May 23 2012 04:58 iCanada wrote: Why do people think Pantheon falls off? I think thats the biggest thing I've really noticed since I started playing him a lot. Everyone thinks when the 20 minute mark hits you gonna be useless or something. He no AD carry or anything, but with 2xdorans, LW, and BT Panths E does like 894 AoE damage in three quarters of a second.... his Q hit for 454. He also has reasonable cooldowns, a passive that scales really well, AND he is always a global presence because of his ult.
Its not too unreasonable to ult into an already commited teamfight and instastun the AD carry killing them before your W's stun even finished. Even if you can't do that, you able to use your E two or three times in a teamfight chances are your team won the team fight.
Am I missing something, or does Panth not scale just as good if not better than any AP carry in the game?
AP burst tends to be more reliable in terms of initiating and doing it's damage (since you can CC Pantheon out of his E). I agree with you though, I think Pantheon's late game is very strong, but you have to be smart about positioning to abuse his E correctly in teamfights, whereas a lot of APs have much more obvious uses for their offensive skills.
On May 23 2012 04:58 iCanada wrote: Why do people think Pantheon falls off? I think thats the biggest thing I've really noticed since I started playing him a lot. Everyone thinks when the 20 minute mark hits you gonna be useless or something. He no AD carry or anything, but with 2xdorans, LW, and BT Panths E does like 894 AoE damage in three quarters of a second.... his Q hit for 454. He also has reasonable cooldowns, a passive that scales really well, AND he is always a global presence because of his ult.
Its not too unreasonable to ult into an already commited teamfight and instastun the AD carry killing them before your W's stun even finished. Even if you can't do that, you able to use your E two or three times in a teamfight chances are your team won the team fight.
Am I missing something, or does Panth not scale just as good if not better than any AP carry in the game?
It's not the fact he deals no damage, it's that he has to come really close to do so. There's a point where you just get gibbed and there's little you can do about it.
That goes for like every melee champion though.
Everyone says panth falls off really hard, but no one says it about say a Gangplank. Realistically, GP and Pantheon do the same damage, have the same range, and both have the global ultimate. Hell, I'd say Panth's passive is a significant'y better defensive steroid than GPs in an offensive steroid, panth has a gap closer/stun that GP doesn't, and Pantheon has more ranged abilities and can stay further away from the action than GP can for the majority of the fight.
If I'm 5-0-0 on GP everyone in the game talks about how I'm gonna carry them hard. If I am 5-0-0 on Pantheon, everyone talks about how it doesn't mean shit because I'm going to fall off. Do you see what I mean?
GP does scale harder though. He gives your team a reverie on a 15 second CD, can safely initiate with his ult and can just eat an orange and peace when the going gets tough. Parrrley also scales off of Crit and on-hit effects which lets it become a bigger poke than Spear Shot. Panth can put out more AoE damage via HSSes, but most people can't seem to use HSS effectively late game and GP is a top of the line lategame bruiser with strong damage output, survivability and teamwide utility.
On May 23 2012 04:58 iCanada wrote: Why do people think Pantheon falls off? I think thats the biggest thing I've really noticed since I started playing him a lot. Everyone thinks when the 20 minute mark hits you gonna be useless or something. He no AD carry or anything, but with 2xdorans, LW, and BT Panths E does like 894 AoE damage in three quarters of a second.... his Q hit for 454. He also has reasonable cooldowns, a passive that scales really well, AND he is always a global presence because of his ult.
Its not too unreasonable to ult into an already commited teamfight and instastun the AD carry killing them before your W's stun even finished. Even if you can't do that, you able to use your E two or three times in a teamfight chances are your team won the team fight.
Am I missing something, or does Panth not scale just as good if not better than any AP carry in the game?
It's not the fact he deals no damage, it's that he has to come really close to do so. There's a point where you just get gibbed and there's little you can do about it.
That goes for like every melee champion though.
Everyone says panth falls off really hard, but no one says it about say a Gangplank. Realistically, GP and Pantheon do the same damage, have the same range, and both have the global ultimate. Hell, I'd say Panth's passive is a significant'y better defensive steroid than GPs in an offensive steroid, panth has a gap closer/stun that GP doesn't, and Pantheon has more ranged abilities and can stay further away from the action than GP can for the majority of the fight.
If I'm 5-0-0 on GP everyone in the game talks about how I'm gonna carry them hard. If I am 5-0-0 on Pantheon, everyone talks about how it doesn't mean shit because I'm going to fall off. Do you see what I mean?
because GP carries hard and panth doesn't... everyone says those things because they're true. gp and panth do NOT do the same damage; GP crits more often than he gets standard auto attacks by lategame, his parrrleys crit even when the enemy is above 15% health, GP has a huge MS/AD buff and a built in frozen mallet which means if you're caught straggling against GP, it's over, GP has a free QSS that also heals him, GP can do meaningful damage even while building pure tank, GPs ult is better in 80% of situations, and pantheon doesn't have more ranged abilities wtf they both have 1
panth's passive is bad during teamfights because anyone's auto can pop it. janna can throw an auto at you while you're chasing her carry and boom you just lost the only defensive skill you had, now you're all in bro. and if you get kited it's over as pantheon. at least GP will 100% be faster than the enemy carry and has a ranged slow to catch up.
you make a good point that melee champs all have a tendency to get blowed the fk up lategame, but GP was the worst example you could have given. pantheon is closer to yi, fiora, renekton than GP lategame - if those guys build tank they do no damage, but if they build damage then they get 1 shot to get in and get a kill or it's over. panth is the same way lategame. unless you're insanely far ahead, you have to play really cautiously in teamfights because once you're in, you're in. if you commit at the wrong time it's over.
that's the reason i stopped playing panth. win lane lose game is the worst feeling in the world. it's even worse when you shut down your enemy laner but they have actual relevance lategame and your team can't close the game out and the guy you shut down ends up carrying the enemy. most embarassing/frustrating thing
Dont get me wrong, I do think GP is better late game than Pantheon. That would be absurd. Gangplank does have those same limitations that pantheon does, he just scales harder in general.
I dunno, if Pantheon falls off crazy late game then so does Warwick, Udyr, Shen, Olaf, Shyvana, Renekton, Wukong... and almost every bruiser in the game.
All of these champs have the exact same limitations. Either build damage or tanky, need to be in close, etc. I dunno, I just dont feel Pantheon becomes useless or irrelevent late game. Worst comes to worst he is still one of the best split pushers in the game.
On May 24 2012 03:02 iCanada wrote: Dont get me wrong, I do think GP is better late game than Pantheon. That would be absurd. Gangplank does have those same limitations that pantheon does, he just scales harder in general.
I dunno, if Pantheon falls off crazy late game then so does Warwick, Udyr, Shen, Olaf, Shyvana, Renekton, Wukong... and almost every bruiser in the game.
All of these champs have the exact same limitations. Either build damage or tanky, need to be in close, etc. I dunno, I just dont feel Pantheon becomes useless or irrelevent late game. Worst comes to worst he is still one of the best split pushers in the game.
The difference is that all the guys you named except Renekton can do tons of damage by building tanky. Pantheon, Renekton, and other champs like him aren't bruisers in that if they build tanky their damage is completely ignorable. They have to build damage to be relevant. In that sense, they can't dive into the enemy team the way bruisers can. These champs have to pick their fights smarter.
On May 24 2012 03:02 iCanada wrote: Dont get me wrong, I do think GP is better late game than Pantheon. That would be absurd. Gangplank does have those same limitations that pantheon does, he just scales harder in general.
I dunno, if Pantheon falls off crazy late game then so does Warwick, Udyr, Shen, Olaf, Shyvana, Renekton, Wukong... and almost every bruiser in the game.
All of these champs have the exact same limitations. Either build damage or tanky, need to be in close, etc. I dunno, I just dont feel Pantheon becomes useless or irrelevent late game. Worst comes to worst he is still one of the best split pushers in the game.
warwick and shyvana have their ultimates and their respective gap closing / movement utility shen can body ppl similar to pantheon with more safety bc his escape wukong has unconditional cc olaf true damage udyr great natural tankiness. Best comparison is renek but panth has greater range and defensive passive early idk nuances in champs hard to emphasize
On May 23 2012 04:58 iCanada wrote: Why do people think Pantheon falls off? I think thats the biggest thing I've really noticed since I started playing him a lot. Everyone thinks when the 20 minute mark hits you gonna be useless or something. He no AD carry or anything, but with 2xdorans, LW, and BT Panths E does like 894 AoE damage in three quarters of a second.... his Q hit for 454. He also has reasonable cooldowns, a passive that scales really well, AND he is always a global presence because of his ult.
Its not too unreasonable to ult into an already commited teamfight and instastun the AD carry killing them before your W's stun even finished. Even if you can't do that, you able to use your E two or three times in a teamfight chances are your team won the team fight.
Am I missing something, or does Panth not scale just as good if not better than any AP carry in the game?
It's not the fact he deals no damage, it's that he has to come really close to do so. There's a point where you just get gibbed and there's little you can do about it.
That goes for like every melee champion though.
Everyone says panth falls off really hard, but no one says it about say a Gangplank. Realistically, GP and Pantheon do the same damage, have the same range, and both have the global ultimate. Hell, I'd say Panth's passive is a significant'y better defensive steroid than GPs in an offensive steroid, panth has a gap closer/stun that GP doesn't, and Pantheon has more ranged abilities and can stay further away from the action than GP can for the majority of the fight.
If I'm 5-0-0 on GP everyone in the game talks about how I'm gonna carry them hard. If I am 5-0-0 on Pantheon, everyone talks about how it doesn't mean shit because I'm going to fall off. Do you see what I mean?
Pantheon falls off because he scales incredibly hard off bonus AD as opposed to base damages. Champs like Irelia and Udyr can build super tanky and have their skills do the damage instead of their items. Riven can build AD but has asinine mobility and an ability that gives her tankiness scaling off her AD items. Pantheon's passive is one of the best early game damage mitigators, but one of the worst lategame ones when attack speeds are higher and you're dealing with multiple people attacking you instead of your lane opponent. His only CC involves literally jumping into the enemies which gets him blown up, unlike lots of other bruisers like Jax who has an AOE stun and invincibility to autoattacks and massive aoe damage reduction etc etc. Think of any good lategame bruiser and they either can build tanky and still do damage, have insane mobility to help overcome their melee-ness, or are like GP who can avoid CCs has other utility. Also Panth's ult is garbage for anything but a hopeful initiate and split pushing lategame.
But he does scale harder off AD than I think anyone besides maybe wukong. It's purely a matter of kit, not damage scaling.
Riven and Lee also have retardedly high AD scaling. Depends on your metrics for determining the AD scaling. If you're looking at 1 full rotation, Wu has a 6.7:1 AD ratio between his Q, E and his ult, Pantheon has a 5.0:1 AD ratio between Q and E, Riven has a 4.9:1 AD ratio between 3 Qs, W, and R vs. 25% or lower HP target, and Lee has a 4.8:1 ratio from EQQR. These are nearsighted ways of looking at it though, as Pantheon's full combo is on a 6 second base CD, Riven has AD that scales on AD, and Lee and Riven get to attack between their abilities, while Pantheon and Wu channel their AoE abilities.
I think the reason I like Pantheon's late game scaling is because of his reach. Ultimately, LoL gets to the point where ranged ADs take over the game and will kill anyone very quickly. Characters that have to dive in to output damage all faceplant into a brick wall vs. most 3 item ADs, and all do once the AD hits 4 items. In midgame, it's great when you can feasibly outscale opposing damage output and still lean on your base damages to be effective, but by lategame, all the free damage in the world, coupled with 4 tank items is still not going to save you from a Kog Maw with IE, PD, LW, and a red buff. Because of this, the fact that Pantheon actually has 600 Range on his full combo is HUGE. He doesn't have to stick his neck out the way an Irelia or an Udyr has to to output damage, so the fact that he doesn't have the same base damages that those characters have that allow them to build tanky ultimately isn't a problem because of the positioning options his range provides.
I just dont feel weak at all with Pantheon late game. I'm not saying he rolls over everyone, or that is late game is broken, or anything like that, more saying that I don't understand the stigma people have that Panth's late game is useless... because it really isn't.
Now that Darius has been played some, I want to know what everyone thinks of the Panth-Darius matchup. I've been having success just chucking spears at him since it outranges his hook/spin and due to Panth's casterish nature just doing my combo and completely ignoring his AS debuff. However I am only 1400 elo so I wanted some more informed opinions on this.
I just dont feel weak at all with Pantheon late game. I'm not saying he rolls over everyone, or that is late game is broken, or anything like that, more saying that I don't understand the stigma people have that Panth's late game is useless... because it really isn't.
He just is really bad in team fights if he isn't fed like a beast. He can jump and flash to attack a target, but if you Q the wrong target, or use your jump on the wrong target, it won't be up again for the entire teamfight. From then on, he is just a lousy auto attacker, and a so-so tank. After his jump, you can pretty much ignore him because he does 0 damage to anyone he can get close to.
That said, if he is somewhat fed, his damage is enough where you are forced to focus him, and he is really tanky as well as being able to get out of a tight jam by jump stun/flash. So if you can get him farmed to hell, then he is very useful.
I always end up going 14-5-7, or something like that, winning my lane and ganking like mad. Then my team just can't keep up, and we end up loosing, even though i'm so fed. 80% of the time this happens. The other 20% is just me winning like that. Panth is super gosu solo Q hero.
I just dont feel weak at all with Pantheon late game. I'm not saying he rolls over everyone, or that is late game is broken, or anything like that, more saying that I don't understand the stigma people have that Panth's late game is useless... because it really isn't.
He just is really bad in team fights if he isn't fed like a beast. He can jump and flash to attack a target, but if you Q the wrong target, or use your jump on the wrong target, it won't be up again for the entire teamfight. From then on, he is just a lousy auto attacker, and a so-so tank. After his jump, you can pretty much ignore him because he does 0 damage to anyone he can get close to.
That said, if he is somewhat fed, his damage is enough where you are forced to focus him, and he is really tanky as well as being able to get out of a tight jam by jump stun/flash. So if you can get him farmed to hell, then he is very useful.
...what game are you playing where pantheon's cds are high and he does 0 damage?
I just dont feel weak at all with Pantheon late game. I'm not saying he rolls over everyone, or that is late game is broken, or anything like that, more saying that I don't understand the stigma people have that Panth's late game is useless... because it really isn't.
He just is really bad in team fights if he isn't fed like a beast. He can jump and flash to attack a target, but if you Q the wrong target, or use your jump on the wrong target, it won't be up again for the entire teamfight. From then on, he is just a lousy auto attacker, and a so-so tank. After his jump, you can pretty much ignore him because he does 0 damage to anyone he can get close to.
That said, if he is somewhat fed, his damage is enough where you are forced to focus him, and he is really tanky as well as being able to get out of a tight jam by jump stun/flash. So if you can get him farmed to hell, then he is very useful.
...what game are you playing where pantheon's cds are high and he does 0 damage?
Didn't say his cd's are high, just in a normal time of a team fight, you can usually only get off 2 stuns, and 2-3 Q's, along with an E. The original stun and Q are on the engage, then you go after a target. If your not fed, your auto attacks won't do much damage, because you will be at around 4 items, 2 of which are tank. Most of his damage is on burst, and his strengths are survivability and mobility in a fight. If there is any CC, then his mobility goes down, and he is just a stun.
The time-span of a team fight doesn't allow panth to shine like in laning phase.
Hu, his only mobility is his ult (which he won't use while in the middle of a teamfight, tho it's hilarious when they gank you, use their cc then you ult) and his stun, of which you said he should engage with, so it's down for like 8-9s. And survivability? In lane or short trades yes, but in a fight Panth is squishy as fuck unless it's early midgame and you've got like 2 dblades and aegis or GA as sources of survivability.
I'd never engage with his stun, I'd rather use it after the initiate if I can pin a carry down to make sure we kill him, or as a peeling tool for whoever dives my carry.
On May 26 2012 05:51 OnceKing wrote: Now that Darius has been played some, I want to know what everyone thinks of the Panth-Darius matchup. I've been having success just chucking spears at him since it outranges his hook/spin and due to Panth's casterish nature just doing my combo and completely ignoring his AS debuff. However I am only 1400 elo so I wanted some more informed opinions on this.
Resident Panth expert Smash basically said "you spear him then gtfo because eating E means he kills you, and you don't tickle him down fast enough with Q spam" in the Darius thread. Which makes me sad.
I just dont feel weak at all with Pantheon late game. I'm not saying he rolls over everyone, or that is late game is broken, or anything like that, more saying that I don't understand the stigma people have that Panth's late game is useless... because it really isn't.
He just is really bad in team fights if he isn't fed like a beast. He can jump and flash to attack a target, but if you Q the wrong target, or use your jump on the wrong target, it won't be up again for the entire teamfight. From then on, he is just a lousy auto attacker, and a so-so tank. After his jump, you can pretty much ignore him because he does 0 damage to anyone he can get close to.
That said, if he is somewhat fed, his damage is enough where you are forced to focus him, and he is really tanky as well as being able to get out of a tight jam by jump stun/flash. So if you can get him farmed to hell, then he is very useful.
...what game are you playing where pantheon's cds are high and he does 0 damage?
Didn't say his cd's are high, just in a normal time of a team fight, you can usually only get off 2 stuns, and 2-3 Q's, along with an E. The original stun and Q are on the engage, then you go after a target. If your not fed, your auto attacks won't do much damage, because you will be at around 4 items, 2 of which are tank. Most of his damage is on burst, and his strengths are survivability and mobility in a fight. If there is any CC, then his mobility goes down, and he is just a stun.
The time-span of a team fight doesn't allow panth to shine like in laning phase.
if u only have 4 items and half of them are tank items you're building him wrong.
I just dont feel weak at all with Pantheon late game. I'm not saying he rolls over everyone, or that is late game is broken, or anything like that, more saying that I don't understand the stigma people have that Panth's late game is useless... because it really isn't.
He just is really bad in team fights if he isn't fed like a beast. He can jump and flash to attack a target, but if you Q the wrong target, or use your jump on the wrong target, it won't be up again for the entire teamfight. From then on, he is just a lousy auto attacker, and a so-so tank. After his jump, you can pretty much ignore him because he does 0 damage to anyone he can get close to.
That said, if he is somewhat fed, his damage is enough where you are forced to focus him, and he is really tanky as well as being able to get out of a tight jam by jump stun/flash. So if you can get him farmed to hell, then he is very useful.
...what game are you playing where pantheon's cds are high and he does 0 damage?
Didn't say his cd's are high, just in a normal time of a team fight, you can usually only get off 2 stuns, and 2-3 Q's, along with an E. The original stun and Q are on the engage, then you go after a target. If your not fed, your auto attacks won't do much damage, because you will be at around 4 items, 2 of which are tank. Most of his damage is on burst, and his strengths are survivability and mobility in a fight. If there is any CC, then his mobility goes down, and he is just a stun.
The time-span of a team fight doesn't allow panth to shine like in laning phase.
if u only have 4 items and half of them are tank items you're building him wrong.
bruit - dps FM - tank Atmas - semi-tank
and either
warmogs - tank hexdrinker - semi-tank (not really that good of a dmg item)
and depending on stuff, you rarely get non-tank boots. Usually i like to get merc treds because the cc reduction helps a ton. but if they don't have cc, usually Ninja tabi.
You build him any other way he is just going to be instagibbed and worthless in the late game. Sure it goes off of each game, but these items allow him to fulfill his top-lane tanky role, while also allowing him to do good dps, and catch someone off guard.
I just dont feel weak at all with Pantheon late game. I'm not saying he rolls over everyone, or that is late game is broken, or anything like that, more saying that I don't understand the stigma people have that Panth's late game is useless... because it really isn't.
He just is really bad in team fights if he isn't fed like a beast. He can jump and flash to attack a target, but if you Q the wrong target, or use your jump on the wrong target, it won't be up again for the entire teamfight. From then on, he is just a lousy auto attacker, and a so-so tank. After his jump, you can pretty much ignore him because he does 0 damage to anyone he can get close to.
That said, if he is somewhat fed, his damage is enough where you are forced to focus him, and he is really tanky as well as being able to get out of a tight jam by jump stun/flash. So if you can get him farmed to hell, then he is very useful.
...what game are you playing where pantheon's cds are high and he does 0 damage?
Didn't say his cd's are high, just in a normal time of a team fight, you can usually only get off 2 stuns, and 2-3 Q's, along with an E. The original stun and Q are on the engage, then you go after a target. If your not fed, your auto attacks won't do much damage, because you will be at around 4 items, 2 of which are tank. Most of his damage is on burst, and his strengths are survivability and mobility in a fight. If there is any CC, then his mobility goes down, and he is just a stun.
The time-span of a team fight doesn't allow panth to shine like in laning phase.
if u only have 4 items and half of them are tank items you're building him wrong.
bruit - dps FM - tank Atmas - semi-tank
and either
warmogs - tank hexdrinker - semi-tank (not really that good of a dmg item)
and depending on stuff, you rarely get non-tank boots. Usually i like to get merc treds because the cc reduction helps a ton. but if they don't have cc, usually Ninja tabi.
You build him any other way he is just going to be instagibbed and worthless in the late game. Sure it goes off of each game, but these items allow him to fulfill his top-lane tanky role, while also allowing him to do good dps, and catch someone off guard.
or you can build him the way outlined in the OP and do damage.
come lategame you're not worthless if you position properly. that means not diving their squishies unless they're out of position. you can melt bruisers and zone/peel for your carries pretty darn well.
but i mean sure go ahead and keep building him as a standard bruiser and only win games if you're fed.
I just dont feel weak at all with Pantheon late game. I'm not saying he rolls over everyone, or that is late game is broken, or anything like that, more saying that I don't understand the stigma people have that Panth's late game is useless... because it really isn't.
He just is really bad in team fights if he isn't fed like a beast. He can jump and flash to attack a target, but if you Q the wrong target, or use your jump on the wrong target, it won't be up again for the entire teamfight. From then on, he is just a lousy auto attacker, and a so-so tank. After his jump, you can pretty much ignore him because he does 0 damage to anyone he can get close to.
That said, if he is somewhat fed, his damage is enough where you are forced to focus him, and he is really tanky as well as being able to get out of a tight jam by jump stun/flash. So if you can get him farmed to hell, then he is very useful.
...what game are you playing where pantheon's cds are high and he does 0 damage?
Or where Q/W is all of panths Damage?
o.o
Come late game his Heartseeker Strike hit like friggen truck.
yea, I just had a game on stream where I went from 2/4/1 to 8/4/7 with Pantheon through sheer farming and positioning in fights. his late game is so potent.
I just dont feel weak at all with Pantheon late game. I'm not saying he rolls over everyone, or that is late game is broken, or anything like that, more saying that I don't understand the stigma people have that Panth's late game is useless... because it really isn't.
He just is really bad in team fights if he isn't fed like a beast. He can jump and flash to attack a target, but if you Q the wrong target, or use your jump on the wrong target, it won't be up again for the entire teamfight. From then on, he is just a lousy auto attacker, and a so-so tank. After his jump, you can pretty much ignore him because he does 0 damage to anyone he can get close to.
That said, if he is somewhat fed, his damage is enough where you are forced to focus him, and he is really tanky as well as being able to get out of a tight jam by jump stun/flash. So if you can get him farmed to hell, then he is very useful.
...what game are you playing where pantheon's cds are high and he does 0 damage?
Didn't say his cd's are high, just in a normal time of a team fight, you can usually only get off 2 stuns, and 2-3 Q's, along with an E. The original stun and Q are on the engage, then you go after a target. If your not fed, your auto attacks won't do much damage, because you will be at around 4 items, 2 of which are tank. Most of his damage is on burst, and his strengths are survivability and mobility in a fight. If there is any CC, then his mobility goes down, and he is just a stun.
The time-span of a team fight doesn't allow panth to shine like in laning phase.
if u only have 4 items and half of them are tank items you're building him wrong.
bruit - dps FM - tank Atmas - semi-tank
and either
warmogs - tank hexdrinker - semi-tank (not really that good of a dmg item)
and depending on stuff, you rarely get non-tank boots. Usually i like to get merc treds because the cc reduction helps a ton. but if they don't have cc, usually Ninja tabi.
You build him any other way he is just going to be instagibbed and worthless in the late game. Sure it goes off of each game, but these items allow him to fulfill his top-lane tanky role, while also allowing him to do good dps, and catch someone off guard.
or you can build him the way outlined in the OP and do damage.
come lategame you're not worthless if you position properly. that means not diving their squishies unless they're out of position. you can melt bruisers and zone/peel for your carries pretty darn well.
but i mean sure go ahead and keep building him as a standard bruiser and only win games if you're fed.
Considering I win my lane and are fed around 90% of my panth games (it happens because panth is so great at ganking other lanes), and that the build i'm using is what a lot of top players use (dyrus and wings come to mind).
Also, the average standard bruiser build is usually wits, atmogs (or atmit), hog, and an X counter item here. Maw is really good with panth because of his passive shield. (also, LS is usually my 5-6th item depending).
The build listed in the thread is your standard low elo lets go carry build that only works at the lower elo's because people don't know how to teamfight, and think that the laning phase ends at 15 minuets when the enemy tower is dead.
I just dont feel weak at all with Pantheon late game. I'm not saying he rolls over everyone, or that is late game is broken, or anything like that, more saying that I don't understand the stigma people have that Panth's late game is useless... because it really isn't.
He just is really bad in team fights if he isn't fed like a beast. He can jump and flash to attack a target, but if you Q the wrong target, or use your jump on the wrong target, it won't be up again for the entire teamfight. From then on, he is just a lousy auto attacker, and a so-so tank. After his jump, you can pretty much ignore him because he does 0 damage to anyone he can get close to.
That said, if he is somewhat fed, his damage is enough where you are forced to focus him, and he is really tanky as well as being able to get out of a tight jam by jump stun/flash. So if you can get him farmed to hell, then he is very useful.
...what game are you playing where pantheon's cds are high and he does 0 damage?
Didn't say his cd's are high, just in a normal time of a team fight, you can usually only get off 2 stuns, and 2-3 Q's, along with an E. The original stun and Q are on the engage, then you go after a target. If your not fed, your auto attacks won't do much damage, because you will be at around 4 items, 2 of which are tank. Most of his damage is on burst, and his strengths are survivability and mobility in a fight. If there is any CC, then his mobility goes down, and he is just a stun.
The time-span of a team fight doesn't allow panth to shine like in laning phase.
if u only have 4 items and half of them are tank items you're building him wrong.
bruit - dps FM - tank Atmas - semi-tank
and either
warmogs - tank hexdrinker - semi-tank (not really that good of a dmg item)
and depending on stuff, you rarely get non-tank boots. Usually i like to get merc treds because the cc reduction helps a ton. but if they don't have cc, usually Ninja tabi.
You build him any other way he is just going to be instagibbed and worthless in the late game. Sure it goes off of each game, but these items allow him to fulfill his top-lane tanky role, while also allowing him to do good dps, and catch someone off guard.
or you can build him the way outlined in the OP and do damage.
come lategame you're not worthless if you position properly. that means not diving their squishies unless they're out of position. you can melt bruisers and zone/peel for your carries pretty darn well.
but i mean sure go ahead and keep building him as a standard bruiser and only win games if you're fed.
Considering I win my lane and are fed around 90% of my panth games (it happens because panth is so great at ganking other lanes), and that the build i'm using is what a lot of top players use (dyrus and wings come to mind).
Also, the average standard bruiser build is usually wits, atmogs (or atmit), hog, and an X counter item here. Maw is really good with panth because of his passive shield. (also, LS is usually my 5-6th item depending).
The build listed in the thread is your standard low elo lets go carry build that only works at the lower elo's because people don't know how to teamfight, and think that the laning phase ends at 15 minuets when the enemy tower is dead.
I just dont feel weak at all with Pantheon late game. I'm not saying he rolls over everyone, or that is late game is broken, or anything like that, more saying that I don't understand the stigma people have that Panth's late game is useless... because it really isn't.
He just is really bad in team fights if he isn't fed like a beast. He can jump and flash to attack a target, but if you Q the wrong target, or use your jump on the wrong target, it won't be up again for the entire teamfight. From then on, he is just a lousy auto attacker, and a so-so tank. After his jump, you can pretty much ignore him because he does 0 damage to anyone he can get close to.
That said, if he is somewhat fed, his damage is enough where you are forced to focus him, and he is really tanky as well as being able to get out of a tight jam by jump stun/flash. So if you can get him farmed to hell, then he is very useful.
...what game are you playing where pantheon's cds are high and he does 0 damage?
Didn't say his cd's are high, just in a normal time of a team fight, you can usually only get off 2 stuns, and 2-3 Q's, along with an E. The original stun and Q are on the engage, then you go after a target. If your not fed, your auto attacks won't do much damage, because you will be at around 4 items, 2 of which are tank. Most of his damage is on burst, and his strengths are survivability and mobility in a fight. If there is any CC, then his mobility goes down, and he is just a stun.
The time-span of a team fight doesn't allow panth to shine like in laning phase.
if u only have 4 items and half of them are tank items you're building him wrong.
bruit - dps FM - tank Atmas - semi-tank
and either
warmogs - tank hexdrinker - semi-tank (not really that good of a dmg item)
and depending on stuff, you rarely get non-tank boots. Usually i like to get merc treds because the cc reduction helps a ton. but if they don't have cc, usually Ninja tabi.
You build him any other way he is just going to be instagibbed and worthless in the late game. Sure it goes off of each game, but these items allow him to fulfill his top-lane tanky role, while also allowing him to do good dps, and catch someone off guard.
or you can build him the way outlined in the OP and do damage.
come lategame you're not worthless if you position properly. that means not diving their squishies unless they're out of position. you can melt bruisers and zone/peel for your carries pretty darn well.
but i mean sure go ahead and keep building him as a standard bruiser and only win games if you're fed.
Considering I win my lane and are fed around 90% of my panth games (it happens because panth is so great at ganking other lanes), and that the build i'm using is what a lot of top players use (dyrus and wings come to mind).
Also, the average standard bruiser build is usually wits, atmogs (or atmit), hog, and an X counter item here. Maw is really good with panth because of his passive shield. (also, LS is usually my 5-6th item depending). The build listed in the thread is your standard low elo lets go carry build that only works at the lower elo's because people don't know how to teamfight, and think that the laning phase ends at 15 minuets when the enemy tower is dead.
Hey, I haven't played League in a while now - when exactly did smash drop down to "low elo"?
I just dont feel weak at all with Pantheon late game. I'm not saying he rolls over everyone, or that is late game is broken, or anything like that, more saying that I don't understand the stigma people have that Panth's late game is useless... because it really isn't.
He just is really bad in team fights if he isn't fed like a beast. He can jump and flash to attack a target, but if you Q the wrong target, or use your jump on the wrong target, it won't be up again for the entire teamfight. From then on, he is just a lousy auto attacker, and a so-so tank. After his jump, you can pretty much ignore him because he does 0 damage to anyone he can get close to.
That said, if he is somewhat fed, his damage is enough where you are forced to focus him, and he is really tanky as well as being able to get out of a tight jam by jump stun/flash. So if you can get him farmed to hell, then he is very useful.
...what game are you playing where pantheon's cds are high and he does 0 damage?
Didn't say his cd's are high, just in a normal time of a team fight, you can usually only get off 2 stuns, and 2-3 Q's, along with an E. The original stun and Q are on the engage, then you go after a target. If your not fed, your auto attacks won't do much damage, because you will be at around 4 items, 2 of which are tank. Most of his damage is on burst, and his strengths are survivability and mobility in a fight. If there is any CC, then his mobility goes down, and he is just a stun.
The time-span of a team fight doesn't allow panth to shine like in laning phase.
if u only have 4 items and half of them are tank items you're building him wrong.
bruit - dps FM - tank Atmas - semi-tank
and either
warmogs - tank hexdrinker - semi-tank (not really that good of a dmg item)
and depending on stuff, you rarely get non-tank boots. Usually i like to get merc treds because the cc reduction helps a ton. but if they don't have cc, usually Ninja tabi.
You build him any other way he is just going to be instagibbed and worthless in the late game. Sure it goes off of each game, but these items allow him to fulfill his top-lane tanky role, while also allowing him to do good dps, and catch someone off guard.
or you can build him the way outlined in the OP and do damage.
come lategame you're not worthless if you position properly. that means not diving their squishies unless they're out of position. you can melt bruisers and zone/peel for your carries pretty darn well.
but i mean sure go ahead and keep building him as a standard bruiser and only win games if you're fed.
Considering I win my lane and are fed around 90% of my panth games (it happens because panth is so great at ganking other lanes), and that the build i'm using is what a lot of top players use (dyrus and wings come to mind).
Also, the average standard bruiser build is usually wits, atmogs (or atmit), hog, and an X counter item here. Maw is really good with panth because of his passive shield. (also, LS is usually my 5-6th item depending).
The build listed in the thread is your standard low elo lets go carry build that only works at the lower elo's because people don't know how to teamfight, and think that the laning phase ends at 15 minuets when the enemy tower is dead.
lolol
smash is low elo. very funny joke
Dunno who smash is. And elo doesn't really mean much at the higher elo's. Any champ can carry, and any one can get carried. A lot of people are still bad at 2k. I can play every role well, and usually only play panth as a joke champ for top, when in normal draft. Panth is never played in competitive games, and if he was, no one would use that build.
The most work i've seen panth do is by dyrus, which is where that build comes from, when he was using him to get to top 5 eu.
Also, consider that the build in the OP is most likely 3-4 mo old.
I like where this discussion is going, might even exceed the "this champion is complete garbage" incident that happened in the jarman thread, as far as entertainment value goes.
I just dont feel weak at all with Pantheon late game. I'm not saying he rolls over everyone, or that is late game is broken, or anything like that, more saying that I don't understand the stigma people have that Panth's late game is useless... because it really isn't.
He just is really bad in team fights if he isn't fed like a beast. He can jump and flash to attack a target, but if you Q the wrong target, or use your jump on the wrong target, it won't be up again for the entire teamfight. From then on, he is just a lousy auto attacker, and a so-so tank. After his jump, you can pretty much ignore him because he does 0 damage to anyone he can get close to.
That said, if he is somewhat fed, his damage is enough where you are forced to focus him, and he is really tanky as well as being able to get out of a tight jam by jump stun/flash. So if you can get him farmed to hell, then he is very useful.
...what game are you playing where pantheon's cds are high and he does 0 damage?
Didn't say his cd's are high, just in a normal time of a team fight, you can usually only get off 2 stuns, and 2-3 Q's, along with an E. The original stun and Q are on the engage, then you go after a target. If your not fed, your auto attacks won't do much damage, because you will be at around 4 items, 2 of which are tank. Most of his damage is on burst, and his strengths are survivability and mobility in a fight. If there is any CC, then his mobility goes down, and he is just a stun.
The time-span of a team fight doesn't allow panth to shine like in laning phase.
if u only have 4 items and half of them are tank items you're building him wrong.
bruit - dps FM - tank Atmas - semi-tank
and either
warmogs - tank hexdrinker - semi-tank (not really that good of a dmg item)
and depending on stuff, you rarely get non-tank boots. Usually i like to get merc treds because the cc reduction helps a ton. but if they don't have cc, usually Ninja tabi.
You build him any other way he is just going to be instagibbed and worthless in the late game. Sure it goes off of each game, but these items allow him to fulfill his top-lane tanky role, while also allowing him to do good dps, and catch someone off guard.
or you can build him the way outlined in the OP and do damage.
come lategame you're not worthless if you position properly. that means not diving their squishies unless they're out of position. you can melt bruisers and zone/peel for your carries pretty darn well.
but i mean sure go ahead and keep building him as a standard bruiser and only win games if you're fed.
Considering I win my lane and are fed around 90% of my panth games (it happens because panth is so great at ganking other lanes), and that the build i'm using is what a lot of top players use (dyrus and wings come to mind).
Also, the average standard bruiser build is usually wits, atmogs (or atmit), hog, and an X counter item here. Maw is really good with panth because of his passive shield. (also, LS is usually my 5-6th item depending).
The build listed in the thread is your standard low elo lets go carry build that only works at the lower elo's because people don't know how to teamfight, and think that the laning phase ends at 15 minuets when the enemy tower is dead.
lolol
smash is low elo. very funny joke
Dunno who smash is. And elo doesn't really mean much at the higher elo's. Any champ can carry, and any one can get carried. A lot of people are still bad at 2k. I can play every role well, and usually only play panth as a joke champ for top, when in normal draft. Panth is never played in competitive games, and if he was, no one would use that build.
The most work i've seen panth do is by dyrus, which is where that build comes from, when he was using him to get to top 5 eu.
Also, consider that the build in the OP is most likely 3-4 mo old.
It's cool. Smash doesn't know who you are either. GLHF coming into this thread on this forum and arguing with the OP. You won't find anyone agreeing with you. There is a reason for that.
I just dont feel weak at all with Pantheon late game. I'm not saying he rolls over everyone, or that is late game is broken, or anything like that, more saying that I don't understand the stigma people have that Panth's late game is useless... because it really isn't.
He just is really bad in team fights if he isn't fed like a beast. He can jump and flash to attack a target, but if you Q the wrong target, or use your jump on the wrong target, it won't be up again for the entire teamfight. From then on, he is just a lousy auto attacker, and a so-so tank. After his jump, you can pretty much ignore him because he does 0 damage to anyone he can get close to.
That said, if he is somewhat fed, his damage is enough where you are forced to focus him, and he is really tanky as well as being able to get out of a tight jam by jump stun/flash. So if you can get him farmed to hell, then he is very useful.
...what game are you playing where pantheon's cds are high and he does 0 damage?
Didn't say his cd's are high, just in a normal time of a team fight, you can usually only get off 2 stuns, and 2-3 Q's, along with an E. The original stun and Q are on the engage, then you go after a target. If your not fed, your auto attacks won't do much damage, because you will be at around 4 items, 2 of which are tank. Most of his damage is on burst, and his strengths are survivability and mobility in a fight. If there is any CC, then his mobility goes down, and he is just a stun.
The time-span of a team fight doesn't allow panth to shine like in laning phase.
if u only have 4 items and half of them are tank items you're building him wrong.
bruit - dps FM - tank Atmas - semi-tank
and either
warmogs - tank hexdrinker - semi-tank (not really that good of a dmg item)
and depending on stuff, you rarely get non-tank boots. Usually i like to get merc treds because the cc reduction helps a ton. but if they don't have cc, usually Ninja tabi.
You build him any other way he is just going to be instagibbed and worthless in the late game. Sure it goes off of each game, but these items allow him to fulfill his top-lane tanky role, while also allowing him to do good dps, and catch someone off guard.
or you can build him the way outlined in the OP and do damage.
come lategame you're not worthless if you position properly. that means not diving their squishies unless they're out of position. you can melt bruisers and zone/peel for your carries pretty darn well.
but i mean sure go ahead and keep building him as a standard bruiser and only win games if you're fed.
Considering I win my lane and are fed around 90% of my panth games (it happens because panth is so great at ganking other lanes), and that the build i'm using is what a lot of top players use (dyrus and wings come to mind).
Also, the average standard bruiser build is usually wits, atmogs (or atmit), hog, and an X counter item here. Maw is really good with panth because of his passive shield. (also, LS is usually my 5-6th item depending).
The build listed in the thread is your standard low elo lets go carry build that only works at the lower elo's because people don't know how to teamfight, and think that the laning phase ends at 15 minuets when the enemy tower is dead.
lolol
smash is low elo. very funny joke
Dunno who smash is. And elo doesn't really mean much at the higher elo's. Any champ can carry, and any one can get carried. A lot of people are still bad at 2k. I can play every role well, and usually only play panth as a joke champ for top, when in normal draft. Panth is never played in competitive games, and if he was, no one would use that build.
The most work i've seen panth do is by dyrus, which is where that build comes from, when he was using him to get to top 5 eu.
Also, consider that the build in the OP is most likely 3-4 mo old.
first you say the build is low elo shit, then when we tell you that this build is used by high elo people you say elo doesn't matter.
Dyrus did use to go mallet+atmas, but that was before the atmas nerf. No one goes atmas anymore. Lots of champs aren't used in competitive play, but that's not necessarily indicative that they're bad. Champs like Xerath, Wukong rarely see competitive play but they're definitely not bad/unviable champs. What you see played in tourneys is limited by what champs the pros are comfortable with.
Also, while the OP wrote the guide 3-4 months ago, the poster updates his stuff very frequently when needed.
Why don't you tell us your summoner name/server/elo so we can decide the validity of your statements for ourselves since you clearly don't think much of what any of us say.
Thats chill. Apparently if you have conflicting opinions, they don't matter. I can only draw from my experience, and whenever I see a panth that tries to build like that in the mid game, he doesn't do that well in the late game, because his team is squish so there is nothing to tank damage. You can just cc him and nuke him quickly, to where he can't get a combo off.
I personally think he works as a great tank, and yea his peel is ok. He is a champ that functions well with items. You can build him any way you like, and in some cases that build works well. But if they have a good jungler and a beefy top lane, they will just zone you in lane phase, and when ever you go to gank, it will be pretty obvious. Panth's ganks are amazing, but they are pretty easy to "sniff" out. He can tower dive, but if he is ever afk from lane after 6, the jungler should just be near bot lane waiting to counter gank a tower dive.
I've tried that build a while ago, and it can work. Usually I have to build tanky as a top laner, just in general. Panth at least needs FM + atmas, or Warmogs + Atmas to fulfill this role. Atams, even since the nerf, is an extremely good item, and worth more then its cost in AD.
Each game requires a different build, and very rarely does top lane get to build damage. With my ganks, I usually try and feed our mid, or ad carry, and help them win their lane. Building tanky helps fulfill this better then building dmg, because with tanky, you can dive and turn things around in mid-game, and while you won't get all the kills, thats not the goal.
Panths kit is built for early/mid game map control and dominance. He isn't a hyper carry, that's for sure. So as long as your team feeds, it won't matter how much you gank for them. If your strong with your positioning, you can help your team, but will never be able to engage against good players, because your back-line will be weak. Without you in the front, taking the damage, your team will be vulnerable to death.
If you pointed out something specific maybe, that is a little bit off with my reasoning, maybe we could discuss it.
He just is really bad in team fights if he isn't fed like a beast. He can jump and flash to attack a target, but if you Q the wrong target, or use your jump on the wrong target, it won't be up again for the entire teamfight. From then on, he is just a lousy auto attacker, and a so-so tank. After his jump, you can pretty much ignore him because he does 0 damage to anyone he can get close to.
That said, if he is somewhat fed, his damage is enough where you are forced to focus him, and he is really tanky as well as being able to get out of a tight jam by jump stun/flash. So if you can get him farmed to hell, then he is very useful.
...what game are you playing where pantheon's cds are high and he does 0 damage?
Didn't say his cd's are high, just in a normal time of a team fight, you can usually only get off 2 stuns, and 2-3 Q's, along with an E. The original stun and Q are on the engage, then you go after a target. If your not fed, your auto attacks won't do much damage, because you will be at around 4 items, 2 of which are tank. Most of his damage is on burst, and his strengths are survivability and mobility in a fight. If there is any CC, then his mobility goes down, and he is just a stun.
The time-span of a team fight doesn't allow panth to shine like in laning phase.
if u only have 4 items and half of them are tank items you're building him wrong.
bruit - dps FM - tank Atmas - semi-tank
and either
warmogs - tank hexdrinker - semi-tank (not really that good of a dmg item)
and depending on stuff, you rarely get non-tank boots. Usually i like to get merc treds because the cc reduction helps a ton. but if they don't have cc, usually Ninja tabi.
You build him any other way he is just going to be instagibbed and worthless in the late game. Sure it goes off of each game, but these items allow him to fulfill his top-lane tanky role, while also allowing him to do good dps, and catch someone off guard.
or you can build him the way outlined in the OP and do damage.
come lategame you're not worthless if you position properly. that means not diving their squishies unless they're out of position. you can melt bruisers and zone/peel for your carries pretty darn well.
but i mean sure go ahead and keep building him as a standard bruiser and only win games if you're fed.
Considering I win my lane and are fed around 90% of my panth games (it happens because panth is so great at ganking other lanes), and that the build i'm using is what a lot of top players use (dyrus and wings come to mind).
Also, the average standard bruiser build is usually wits, atmogs (or atmit), hog, and an X counter item here. Maw is really good with panth because of his passive shield. (also, LS is usually my 5-6th item depending).
The build listed in the thread is your standard low elo lets go carry build that only works at the lower elo's because people don't know how to teamfight, and think that the laning phase ends at 15 minuets when the enemy tower is dead.
lolol
smash is low elo. very funny joke
Dunno who smash is. And elo doesn't really mean much at the higher elo's. Any champ can carry, and any one can get carried. A lot of people are still bad at 2k. I can play every role well, and usually only play panth as a joke champ for top, when in normal draft. Panth is never played in competitive games, and if he was, no one would use that build.
The most work i've seen panth do is by dyrus, which is where that build comes from, when he was using him to get to top 5 eu.
Also, consider that the build in the OP is most likely 3-4 mo old.
first you say the build is low elo shit, then when we tell you that this build is used by high elo people you say elo doesn't matter.
Dyrus did use to go mallet+atmas, but that was before the atmas nerf. No one goes atmas anymore. Lots of champs aren't used in competitive play, but that's not necessarily indicative that they're bad. Champs like Xerath, Wukong rarely see competitive play but they're definitely not bad/unviable champs. What you see played in tourneys is limited by what champs the pros are comfortable with.
Also, while the OP wrote the guide 3-4 months ago, the poster updates his stuff very frequently when needed.
Why don't you tell us your summoner name/server/elo so we can decide the validity of your statements for ourselves since you clearly don't think much of what any of us say.
His TL username happens to be either unranked, or below 1200 on NA. I dunno if that actually him, although he just played a game yesterday with same build he described earlier.
On May 26 2012 09:44 hellsan631 wrote: Thats chill. Apparently if you have conflicting opinions, they don't matter. I can only draw from my experience, and whenever I see a panth that tries to build like that in the mid game, he doesn't do that well in the late game, because his team is squish so there is nothing to tank damage. You can just cc him and nuke him quickly, to where he can't get a combo off.
I personally think he works as a great tank, and yea his peel is ok. He is a champ that functions well with items. You can build him any way you like, and in some cases that build works well. But if they have a good jungler and a beefy top lane, they will just zone you in lane phase, and when ever you go to gank, it will be pretty obvious. Panth's ganks are amazing, but they are pretty easy to "sniff" out. He can tower dive, but if he is ever afk from lane after 6, the jungler should just be near bot lane waiting to counter gank a tower dive.
I've tried that build a while ago, and it can work. Usually I have to build tanky as a top laner, just in general. Panth at least needs FM + atmas, or Warmogs + Atmas to fulfill this role. Atams, even since the nerf, is an extremely good item, and worth more then its cost in AD.
Each game requires a different build, and very rarely does top lane get to build damage. With my ganks, I usually try and feed our mid, or ad carry, and help them win their lane. Building tanky helps fulfill this better then building dmg, because with tanky, you can dive and turn things around in mid-game, and while you won't get all the kills, thats not the goal.
Panths kit is built for early/mid game map control and dominance. He isn't a hyper carry, that's for sure. So as long as your team feeds, it won't matter how much you gank for them. If your strong with your positioning, you can help your team, but will never be able to engage against good players, because your back-line will be weak. Without you in the front, taking the damage, your team will be vulnerable to death.
If you pointed out something specific maybe, that is a little bit off with my reasoning, maybe we could discuss it.
Having a conflicting opinion is not the problem we have with the way you've been posting in this thread.
Let me break it down for you: 1) What you are saying is flat out wrong. This is the biggest one.
2) You said you don't know who Smash is. SmashGizmo is a TL regular (he wrote the OP and uses the forum name Mogwai) that has contributed a bunch to this community. I personally have learned a whole lot from his posts, and stream. He's one of the most respected members of this subforum and he also happens to be known for his Pantheon. He is a better player than you, and routinely dunks on people better than you.
3) Your posts came across as smug "lessons" and not as discussion points. Instead of saying "this is the way you would build panth if you weren't a low ELO scrub" try something like "this is what I've been doing with Panth and I've been getting these kind of results, lets talk about it"
Personally, I haven't seen you around before, but you have a dragoon so I'll assume you're not new to TL. I would like to personally welcome you to the LoL section and I hope we can learn from each other in the future. That's not gonna happen by criticizing our most active and frequently updated champ thread.
On May 26 2012 09:44 hellsan631 wrote: Thats chill. Apparently if you have conflicting opinions, they don't matter. I can only draw from my experience, and whenever I see a panth that tries to build like that in the mid game, he doesn't do that well in the late game, because his team is squish so there is nothing to tank damage. You can just cc him and nuke him quickly, to where he can't get a combo off.
I personally think he works as a great tank, and yea his peel is ok. He is a champ that functions well with items. You can build him any way you like, and in some cases that build works well. But if they have a good jungler and a beefy top lane, they will just zone you in lane phase, and when ever you go to gank, it will be pretty obvious. Panth's ganks are amazing, but they are pretty easy to "sniff" out. He can tower dive, but if he is ever afk from lane after 6, the jungler should just be near bot lane waiting to counter gank a tower dive.
I've tried that build a while ago, and it can work. Usually I have to build tanky as a top laner, just in general. Panth at least needs FM + atmas, or Warmogs + Atmas to fulfill this role. Atams, even since the nerf, is an extremely good item, and worth more then its cost in AD.
Each game requires a different build, and very rarely does top lane get to build damage. With my ganks, I usually try and feed our mid, or ad carry, and help them win their lane. Building tanky helps fulfill this better then building dmg, because with tanky, you can dive and turn things around in mid-game, and while you won't get all the kills, thats not the goal.
Panths kit is built for early/mid game map control and dominance. He isn't a hyper carry, that's for sure. So as long as your team feeds, it won't matter how much you gank for them. If your strong with your positioning, you can help your team, but will never be able to engage against good players, because your back-line will be weak. Without you in the front, taking the damage, your team will be vulnerable to death.
If you pointed out something specific maybe, that is a little bit off with my reasoning, maybe we could discuss it.
If you need a bruiser, someone to soak up damage, then you're absolutely right. Panth is awful at that. You shouldn't pick Panth when your team needs someone to be a tank. You pick Panth when you want to blow stuff up.
In teamfights, if you're trying to play him the way you'd play say Malphite or Irelia, you're gonna blow up and you're probably doing it wrong. You should be playing Panth more like you'd play an AP carry or a support; you peel off and zone bruisers/assassins with your massive damage and dive onto their carries when they're out of position.
Junglers are Panths #1 counter. If the enemy jungler is camping you, then yea, you're gonna be worthless. But that's the case for teh vast majority of champs in the game.
On May 26 2012 09:44 hellsan631 wrote: Thats chill. Apparently if you have conflicting opinions, they don't matter. I can only draw from my experience, and whenever I see a panth that tries to build like that in the mid game, he doesn't do that well in the late game, because his team is squish so there is nothing to tank damage. You can just cc him and nuke him quickly, to where he can't get a combo off.
I personally think he works as a great tank, and yea his peel is ok. He is a champ that functions well with items. You can build him any way you like, and in some cases that build works well. But if they have a good jungler and a beefy top lane, they will just zone you in lane phase, and when ever you go to gank, it will be pretty obvious. Panth's ganks are amazing, but they are pretty easy to "sniff" out. He can tower dive, but if he is ever afk from lane after 6, the jungler should just be near bot lane waiting to counter gank a tower dive.
I've tried that build a while ago, and it can work. Usually I have to build tanky as a top laner, just in general. Panth at least needs FM + atmas, or Warmogs + Atmas to fulfill this role. Atams, even since the nerf, is an extremely good item, and worth more then its cost in AD.
Each game requires a different build, and very rarely does top lane get to build damage. With my ganks, I usually try and feed our mid, or ad carry, and help them win their lane. Building tanky helps fulfill this better then building dmg, because with tanky, you can dive and turn things around in mid-game, and while you won't get all the kills, thats not the goal.
Panths kit is built for early/mid game map control and dominance. He isn't a hyper carry, that's for sure. So as long as your team feeds, it won't matter how much you gank for them. If your strong with your positioning, you can help your team, but will never be able to engage against good players, because your back-line will be weak. Without you in the front, taking the damage, your team will be vulnerable to death.
If you pointed out something specific maybe, that is a little bit off with my reasoning, maybe we could discuss it.
Having a conflicting opinion is not the problem we have with the way you've been posting in this thread.
Let me break it down for you: 1) What you are saying is flat out wrong. This is the biggest one.
2) You said you don't know who Smash is. SmashGizmo is a TL regular (he wrote the OP and uses the forum name Mogwai) that has contributed a bunch to this community. I personally have learned a whole lot from his posts, and stream. He's one of the most respected members of this subforum and he also happens to be known for his Pantheon. He is a better player than you, and routinely dunks on people better than you.
3) Your posts came across as smug "lessons" and not as discussion points. Instead of saying "this is the way you would build panth if you weren't a low ELO scrub" try something like "this is what I've been doing with Panth and I've been getting these kind of results, lets talk about it"
Personally, I haven't seen you around before, but you have a dragoon so I'll assume you're not new to TL. I would like to personally welcome you to the LoL section and I hope we can learn from each other in the future. That's not gonna happen by criticizing our most active and frequently updated champ thread.
On May 26 2012 09:44 hellsan631 wrote: Wall of text that doesn't tell us what ELO you are or what credentials you bring. + Show Spoiler +
Thats chill. Apparently if you have conflicting opinions, they don't matter. I can only draw from my experience, and whenever I see a panth that tries to build like that in the mid game, he doesn't do that well in the late game, because his team is squish so there is nothing to tank damage. You can just cc him and nuke him quickly, to where he can't get a combo off.
I personally think he works as a great tank, and yea his peel is ok. He is a champ that functions well with items. You can build him any way you like, and in some cases that build works well. But if they have a good jungler and a beefy top lane, they will just zone you in lane phase, and when ever you go to gank, it will be pretty obvious. Panth's ganks are amazing, but they are pretty easy to "sniff" out. He can tower dive, but if he is ever afk from lane after 6, the jungler should just be near bot lane waiting to counter gank a tower dive.
I've tried that build a while ago, and it can work. Usually I have to build tanky as a top laner, just in general. Panth at least needs FM + atmas, or Warmogs + Atmas to fulfill this role. Atams, even since the nerf, is an extremely good item, and worth more then its cost in AD.
Each game requires a different build, and very rarely does top lane get to build damage. With my ganks, I usually try and feed our mid, or ad carry, and help them win their lane. Building tanky helps fulfill this better then building dmg, because with tanky, you can dive and turn things around in mid-game, and while you won't get all the kills, thats not the goal.
Panths kit is built for early/mid game map control and dominance. He isn't a hyper carry, that's for sure. So as long as your team feeds, it won't matter how much you gank for them. If your strong with your positioning, you can help your team, but will never be able to engage against good players, because your back-line will be weak. Without you in the front, taking the damage, your team will be vulnerable to death.
If you pointed out something specific maybe, that is a little bit off with my reasoning, maybe we could discuss it.
Just give us a number and we might actually consider you more than a joke
On May 26 2012 09:44 hellsan631 wrote: Thats chill. Apparently if you have conflicting opinions, they don't matter. I can only draw from my experience, and whenever I see a panth that tries to build like that in the mid game, he doesn't do that well in the late game, because his team is squish so there is nothing to tank damage. You can just cc him and nuke him quickly, to where he can't get a combo off.
I personally think he works as a great tank, and yea his peel is ok. He is a champ that functions well with items. You can build him any way you like, and in some cases that build works well. But if they have a good jungler and a beefy top lane, they will just zone you in lane phase, and when ever you go to gank, it will be pretty obvious. Panth's ganks are amazing, but they are pretty easy to "sniff" out. He can tower dive, but if he is ever afk from lane after 6, the jungler should just be near bot lane waiting to counter gank a tower dive.
I've tried that build a while ago, and it can work. Usually I have to build tanky as a top laner, just in general. Panth at least needs FM + atmas, or Warmogs + Atmas to fulfill this role. Atams, even since the nerf, is an extremely good item, and worth more then its cost in AD.
Each game requires a different build, and very rarely does top lane get to build damage. With my ganks, I usually try and feed our mid, or ad carry, and help them win their lane. Building tanky helps fulfill this better then building dmg, because with tanky, you can dive and turn things around in mid-game, and while you won't get all the kills, thats not the goal.
Panths kit is built for early/mid game map control and dominance. He isn't a hyper carry, that's for sure. So as long as your team feeds, it won't matter how much you gank for them. If your strong with your positioning, you can help your team, but will never be able to engage against good players, because your back-line will be weak. Without you in the front, taking the damage, your team will be vulnerable to death.
If you pointed out something specific maybe, that is a little bit off with my reasoning, maybe we could discuss it.
Having a conflicting opinion is not the problem we have with the way you've been posting in this thread.
Let me break it down for you: 1) What you are saying is flat out wrong. This is the biggest one.
2) You said you don't know who Smash is. SmashGizmo is a TL regular (he wrote the OP and uses the forum name Mogwai) that has contributed a bunch to this community. I personally have learned a whole lot from his posts, and stream. He's one of the most respected members of this subforum and he also happens to be known for his Pantheon. He is a better player than you, and routinely dunks on people better than you.
3) Your posts came across as smug "lessons" and not as discussion points. Instead of saying "this is the way you would build panth if you weren't a low ELO scrub" try something like "this is what I've been doing with Panth and I've been getting these kind of results, lets talk about it"
Personally, I haven't seen you around before, but you have a dragoon so I'll assume you're not new to TL. I would like to personally welcome you to the LoL section and I hope we can learn from each other in the future. That's not gonna happen by criticizing our most active and frequently updated champ thread.
If I could give hugs through the internet, I would give you one.
On May 26 2012 09:44 hellsan631 wrote: Thats chill. Apparently if you have conflicting opinions, they don't matter. I can only draw from my experience, and whenever I see a panth that tries to build like that in the mid game, he doesn't do that well in the late game, because his team is squish so there is nothing to tank damage. You can just cc him and nuke him quickly, to where he can't get a combo off.
I personally think he works as a great tank, and yea his peel is ok. He is a champ that functions well with items. You can build him any way you like, and in some cases that build works well. But if they have a good jungler and a beefy top lane, they will just zone you in lane phase, and when ever you go to gank, it will be pretty obvious. Panth's ganks are amazing, but they are pretty easy to "sniff" out. He can tower dive, but if he is ever afk from lane after 6, the jungler should just be near bot lane waiting to counter gank a tower dive.
I've tried that build a while ago, and it can work. Usually I have to build tanky as a top laner, just in general. Panth at least needs FM + atmas, or Warmogs + Atmas to fulfill this role. Atams, even since the nerf, is an extremely good item, and worth more then its cost in AD.
Each game requires a different build, and very rarely does top lane get to build damage. With my ganks, I usually try and feed our mid, or ad carry, and help them win their lane. Building tanky helps fulfill this better then building dmg, because with tanky, you can dive and turn things around in mid-game, and while you won't get all the kills, thats not the goal.
Panths kit is built for early/mid game map control and dominance. He isn't a hyper carry, that's for sure. So as long as your team feeds, it won't matter how much you gank for them. If your strong with your positioning, you can help your team, but will never be able to engage against good players, because your back-line will be weak. Without you in the front, taking the damage, your team will be vulnerable to death.
If you pointed out something specific maybe, that is a little bit off with my reasoning, maybe we could discuss it.
If you need a bruiser, someone to soak up damage, then you're absolutely right. Panth is awful at that. You shouldn't pick Panth when your team needs someone to be a tank. You pick Panth when you want to blow stuff up.
In teamfights, if you're trying to play him the way you'd play say Malphite or Irelia, you're gonna blow up and you're probably doing it wrong. You should be playing Panth more like you'd play an AP carry or a support; you peel off and zone bruisers/assassins with your massive damage and dive onto their carries when they're out of position.
Junglers are Panths #1 counter. If the enemy jungler is camping you, then yea, you're gonna be worthless. But that's the case for teh vast majority of champs in the game.
On May 26 2012 07:32 Mogwai wrote: yea, I just had a game on stream where I went from 2/4/1 to 8/4/7 with Pantheon through sheer farming and positioning in fights. his late game is so potent.
People, please, just watch this game. I get camped, go 2/4/1, then finish 8/4/7 using late game Panth, exact build in OP. I know 1 game doesn't prove anything, but Pantheon's quite capable of being strong late game and coming back from shitty early game.
Frozen Mallet/Atma's or Warmog's/Atma's Panth is stupid. You can get a Warmog's for your one defensive item if you want (I think Ryden7 does this), but Atma's is pointless on Pantheon since the nerf.
If you look up Biotoxin (EUW Top Panth player) he also goes DBlade/Brutalizer/Bloodthirster/GA. There's a reason that's the textbook Assassin build on practically every champ.
@SmashGizmo: What is your opinion of a Pantheon who takes Zerker Greaves for better pushing/splitpushing?
Thankfully Darius' E has a stupid long cd. Just on a theoretical level I think panth would be a perfect counter to this guy. As long as Darius maxes Q according to the standard of "9->5 s damage dealing spell cd is better than 22->12 s utility cd"
I feel like a total boss, and kind of dirty at the same time.
I just laned as Pantheon against a Veigar. That was just.... Haha. Poor Veigar had 12 CS at the ten minute mark. Only way he could farm was with both meteor and stun, I dunno wtf their Nocturne was doing, he certainly never ganked top. I honestly think that that is likely the most one sided matchup in the game.
On May 28 2012 12:48 obesechicken13 wrote: Thankfully Darius' E has a stupid long cd. Just on a theoretical level I think panth would be a perfect counter to this guy. As long as Darius maxes Q according to the standard of "9->5 s damage dealing spell cd is better than 22->12 s utility cd"
Yeah, it seems like it would be nice, but it's not. You always have to dance in and out throwing spears, which don't really chip him down for enough. And you ALWAYS have to be on your toes to avoid the hook, cause if you don't avoid it, you're pretty fucked.
I build Pant this way. Ad nuker in early-mid game, get a lot of kills/assists, destroy some turrets. Tanky (physical armor) in mid game. Destroy towers, gank lanes, roam in the jungle (thanks to your ult you can go wherever you want, but not too far from your team). I consider his ult is very important for teamfights, you can split enemy team in half if you place it correctly. Works great with Amumu. Late game, final build atmogs, mercuries, last whisper, brutalizer, and other optional stuff depending on enemy team. Main objective is to kill squishies, work in pair with your ad/ap carry. Don't stick around your team, go clear jungle. Get oracle and wards.
Smash, you've probably answered this before, but how do you assess Pantheon vs. Jax? I was raping him early on, but after he got to level 8 or so he won all trades even being down 40 cs. Was I just playing Panth wrong (didn't spam HSS enough, sometimes a bit slow to use shield).
just don't full blown commit to him, you win on harass, you lose if you try to trade blows after like, level 7 when his jump CD is close enough to your spear CD for you to not be able to work in 2 spears/jax jump. i find I can get the lane snowballing easily enough to win off of levels 1-6, but it's annoying because you can't really bully even with a sizable lead when Jax hits level 9.
1392 damage from Cannon Barrage. Seeing how I was rocking Merc treads I must have gotten hit with like every single cannonball. Dumb as shit.
75*25 = 1875
With Merc treads + runes you should have approx 70 magic resist.
70 MR = 40% magic reduction? Or close if memory serves.
1875*0.6 = 1125
You must have been hit by all 25 of his cannonballs... And then some bonus ones?
Never fight inside of Gangplanks ulti. People always underestimate the damage his ulti does.
Wasn't running any MR runes. Running a 15 AD 19 Armor page. Only like 55~ MR, which is about 25% damage reduction. Numbers still seem weird to me though, I dunno maybe he had like AP runes, or the spell pen mastery or something silly like that.
I just wanted more of a challenge so I purposely tried to give GP an advantage? Haha, I dunno, just unlucky as hell.
But yeah, lesson learned... No matter how much a lead you have Cannonballs OP.
Smash, how often do you find yourself playing a more dedicated Splitpushing Pantheon lategame? Do you only splitpush in the appropriate comp, or do you find yourself pushing frequently regardless of the team?
I'd say 80% of the time my lategame role is a mix between backline babysitter/assassin with ult (basically, HSS zoning unless their kiting patterns are such that I can iso ranged AD + support with myself and our jungler) and the other 20% of the time is split pushing.
Also, what's the deal with this Arch Angeloid dude? He's 2100+ and has 500+ Panth games, but he has the most bizarre Pantheon build I've seen. Some concoction with Brut / IE / Mallet / LW. Do you think that IE has merit on Pantheon?
On June 05 2012 15:03 HughMyron wrote: Also, what's the deal with this Arch Angeloid dude? He's 2100+ and has 500+ Panth games, but he has the most bizarre Pantheon build I've seen. Some concoction with Brut / IE / Mallet / LW. Do you think that IE has merit on Pantheon?
the autocrit from E is pretty cool. Having the IE basically makes it so that your autocrits are almost guaranteed kills. It seems kinda pointless to me tho tbh...but if it works for the guy...
IE a total waste on Pantheon. You get more AD for less gold with a BT and certain death crits dont get the IE crit bonus much like Shaco decieve or Cait passive. You spend 800 more gold to get Crit stats that dont help and 20 less AD.
On June 05 2012 16:11 iCanada wrote: IE a total waste on Pantheon. You get more AD for less gold with a BT and certain death crits dont get the IE crit bonus much like Shaco decieve or Cait passive. You spend 800 more gold to get Crit stats that dont help and 20 less AD.
Pretty sure Panth's crits from E passive do get the IE crit bonus. The difference is that Panth's E makes Panth's crit chance go to 100% the same way Ashe's passive increases her crit chance. Shaco's deceive specifically states how much it'll crit for.
On June 05 2012 16:11 iCanada wrote: IE a total waste on Pantheon. You get more AD for less gold with a BT and certain death crits dont get the IE crit bonus much like Shaco decieve or Cait passive. You spend 800 more gold to get Crit stats that dont help and 20 less AD.
Pretty sure Panth's crits from E passive do get the IE crit bonus. The difference is that Panth's E makes Panth's crit chance go to 100% the same way Ashe's passive increases her crit chance. Shaco's deceive specifically states how much it'll crit for.
To clarify, Panth's auto attack crits do get affected, however his ability crits don't.
On June 05 2012 16:11 iCanada wrote: IE a total waste on Pantheon. You get more AD for less gold with a BT and certain death crits dont get the IE crit bonus much like Shaco decieve or Cait passive. You spend 800 more gold to get Crit stats that dont help and 20 less AD.
Pretty sure Panth's crits from E passive do get the IE crit bonus. The difference is that Panth's E makes Panth's crit chance go to 100% the same way Ashe's passive increases her crit chance. Shaco's deceive specifically states how much it'll crit for.
To clarify, Panth's auto attack crits do get affected, however his ability crits don't.
His Q crit isn't really even a crit. IIRC his Q "crit" basically just does 150% damage to targets under 15%.
On June 05 2012 16:11 iCanada wrote: IE a total waste on Pantheon. You get more AD for less gold with a BT and certain death crits dont get the IE crit bonus much like Shaco decieve or Cait passive. You spend 800 more gold to get Crit stats that dont help and 20 less AD.
Pretty sure Panth's crits from E passive do get the IE crit bonus. The difference is that Panth's E makes Panth's crit chance go to 100% the same way Ashe's passive increases her crit chance. Shaco's deceive specifically states how much it'll crit for.
To clarify, Panth's auto attack crits do get affected, however his ability crits don't.
His Q crit isn't really even a crit. IIRC his Q "crit" basically just does 150% damage to targets under 15%.
Yeah, same as Shaco decieve and Cait headshot.
I dunno, I think +50% crit damage on last hit kinda useless, rather just have 20 more AD.
On June 05 2012 16:11 iCanada wrote: IE a total waste on Pantheon. You get more AD for less gold with a BT and certain death crits dont get the IE crit bonus much like Shaco decieve or Cait passive. You spend 800 more gold to get Crit stats that dont help and 20 less AD.
Pretty sure Panth's crits from E passive do get the IE crit bonus. The difference is that Panth's E makes Panth's crit chance go to 100% the same way Ashe's passive increases her crit chance. Shaco's deceive specifically states how much it'll crit for.
To clarify, Panth's auto attack crits do get affected, however his ability crits don't.
His Q crit isn't really even a crit. IIRC his Q "crit" basically just does 150% damage to targets under 15%.
Yeah, same as Shaco decieve and Cait headshot.
I dunno, I think +50% crit damage on last hit kinda useless, rather just have 20 more AD.
yea i agree with you. but the guy seems to be doin okay with it at 2.1k elo so iunno
On June 05 2012 15:03 HughMyron wrote: Also, what's the deal with this Arch Angeloid dude? He's 2100+ and has 500+ Panth games, but he has the most bizarre Pantheon build I've seen. Some concoction with Brut / IE / Mallet / LW. Do you think that IE has merit on Pantheon?
my elo > his so do my build, huehuehuehue.
his build is fine. it's essentially a modified old-school maknoon build with IE to compensate for the fact that atma's is a little weak right now. it's never really fit my playstyle and I think he'd do a lot better with BT than IE, but if it works, it works.
the oddest thing about his build IMO is that he opts for atma's over upgrading to ghostblade after bruta/ie/mallet/lw. ghostblade would be cashmoney with your IE and Mallet for obliterating targets you're isolated against. for mallet pantheon builds, I would personally recommend opening 1-2 dblades -> bruta -> phage -> BT -> Mallet -> Ghostblade -> LW + GA, but as they're not really my style, I don't feel comfortable saying that with any real confidence.
Yeah, I was watching Arch on the featured games list, I some things he did made me think "da fuk." Also he isn't a huge fan of DBlades for some reason.
I dunno, I'll just stick to Brut / BT / GA / LW, it works for me. I know that Ryden7 usually opts for a Warmog's for his defensive item, though, which is interesting.
I'm gonna go on record as an egotistical jerkass and say that my pantheon is king and that these Ryden7 and ArchAngeloid jokers need to get on my level.
On June 06 2012 16:14 JerKy wrote: Errr with a 40 cs lead you should have stomped him?
Thats what I thought too.
We were both like 60% HP, I was on Double dorans boots he had boots mana crystal. We both ignited and got our full combo off minus Swain's Nevermove which I flashed, I died he lived with like 150~ hp.
Am I doing something horribly wrong? I felt like I had zero kill potential on him, and even with a huge item advantage trades were fairly even. I was rocking a AD reds AD quints Flat MR Yellows and blues, just felt awful. My instinct tells me that next time I see swain I should just start boots and skip Dorans altogether in favour of double null magic mantles -> Hexdrinker/Mercs and just farm while not dying.
EDIT: I guess he had blue buff and just hit six. Probably just a bad spot for me to commit. Shoulda just dodged until his blue gone and whittled down his mana first. I hate laning against swain, always have... he has so much range, and even if you get a fair trade he just heals up with his ult... its not even like you can punish him super hard before six, because they just give him blue.
On June 06 2012 16:14 JerKy wrote: Errr with a 40 cs lead you should have stomped him?
Thats what I thought too.
We were both like 60% HP, I was on Double dorans boots he had boots mana crystal. We both ignited and got our full combo off minus Swain's Nevermove which I flashed, I died he lived with like 150~ hp.
Am I doing something horribly wrong? I felt like I had zero kill potential on him, and even with a huge item advantage trades were fairly even. I was rocking a AD reds AD quints Flat MR Yellows and blues, just felt awful. My instinct tells me that next time I see swain I should just start boots and skip Dorans altogether in favour of double null magic mantles -> Hexdrinker/Mercs and just farm while not dying.
EDIT: I guess he had blue buff and just hit six. Probably just a bad spot for me to commit. Shoulda just dodged until his blue gone and whittled down his mana first. I hate laning against swain, always have... he has so much range, and even if you get a fair trade he just heals up with his ult... its not even like you can punish him super hard before six, because they just give him blue.
-.-
ArPen reds would go a long way for you too since Swains don't build armor for a long ass time. The matchup isn't that hard, but @ 6 you have to be very cautious about committing. If he has blue, you just harass him to encourage him to ult to heal it off and call over a jungle gank. It's sorta like facing rumble, he has to push in order to trade effectively, and he has even worse escapes than Rumble does, so just gank his balls off. If he doesn't have blue, you can wear away at his mana pool pretty easily too.
Lately i had some games top against people starting cloth and defensive masteries. They were still hurting from my spears, but mostly it resulted in me being oom and him starting to chuck his 4th pot. Should i just wait for level 3 to start throwing stuff at him, or do is try my best to destroy their very existence?
On June 08 2012 01:24 Broetchenholer wrote: Lately i had some games top against people starting cloth and defensive masteries. They were still hurting from my spears, but mostly it resulted in me being oom and him starting to chuck his 4th pot. Should i just wait for level 3 to start throwing stuff at him, or do is try my best to destroy their very existence?
depends how they're playing the lane. if they wanna commit to you, you spear as much as possible while autoing and you win. if they're disengaging when you try to attack them, you conserve mana @ levels 2 and 4 and wait for your next rank in spear shot to get the most of your mana.
Are Pantheon spears supposed to disappear when you die?
Was laning against a Nasus, hit 2 and realized I could burst him pretty easily. He went in for CS, I Q->W->Ignite->auto->Q, and the last spear should have been more than enough to kill him... however their Riven comes out to level 2 gank (bitch must have been in the brush for a long time...) at the same time.
Nasus flashes before last spear hits with like 50~ HP and ignite on him (spear keeps following) but I die before the spear hit him. The spear just like... dissapeared and he got away with like 20 HP.
This is one of those moments where I wish LoL had replays.
I dunno, its possible I miscalculated, but he only had ~250 HP. I feel like he should have died 100% if the spear actually hit. I guess if he had full armor runes and the cloth he was rocking he could have survived with pot/passive heal. There were also a ton of minions, probably should have just kept him zoned.
On June 09 2012 03:42 HughMyron wrote: So, does anyone Jungle Panth anymore? I think it's cute to do in Normals and Low Elo, but not useful for much besides that.
that's about right. his clear is meh, ganks are stronk, but not stronk enough to justify him over other strong gankers. Essentially, nocturne is just better than Pantheon out of the jangle.
On June 09 2012 03:42 HughMyron wrote: So, does anyone Jungle Panth anymore? I think it's cute to do in Normals and Low Elo, but not useful for much besides that.
that's about right. his clear is meh, ganks are stronk, but not stronk enough to justify him over other strong gankers. Essentially, nocturne is just better than Pantheon out of the jangle.
Yeah I think so too. Panth's only thing he has is that his stun is instant, and I think he does a bit more DPS early on, but that doesn't make up for Noct's other advantages over him.
On June 09 2012 03:42 HughMyron wrote: So, does anyone Jungle Panth anymore? I think it's cute to do in Normals and Low Elo, but not useful for much besides that.
that's about right. his clear is meh, ganks are stronk, but not stronk enough to justify him over other strong gankers. Essentially, nocturne is just better than Pantheon out of the jangle.
Yeah I think so too. Panth's only thing he has is that his stun is instant, and I think he does a bit more DPS early on, but that doesn't make up for Noct's other advantages over him.
He also has a stronger gank bot @ level 6. His ult completely circumvents wards which is very very powerful. But still, meh, Noct does a lot more damage building tankier and his ult is ultimately more useful @ level 11+, not to mention the safer and faster jungling.
On June 06 2012 16:14 JerKy wrote: Errr with a 40 cs lead you should have stomped him?
Thats what I thought too.
We were both like 60% HP, I was on Double dorans boots he had boots mana crystal. We both ignited and got our full combo off minus Swain's Nevermove which I flashed, I died he lived with like 150~ hp.
Am I doing something horribly wrong? I felt like I had zero kill potential on him, and even with a huge item advantage trades were fairly even. I was rocking a AD reds AD quints Flat MR Yellows and blues, just felt awful. My instinct tells me that next time I see swain I should just start boots and skip Dorans altogether in favour of double null magic mantles -> Hexdrinker/Mercs and just farm while not dying.
EDIT: I guess he had blue buff and just hit six. Probably just a bad spot for me to commit. Shoulda just dodged until his blue gone and whittled down his mana first. I hate laning against swain, always have... he has so much range, and even if you get a fair trade he just heals up with his ult... its not even like you can punish him super hard before six, because they just give him blue.
-.-
ArPen reds would go a long way for you too since Swains don't build armor for a long ass time. The matchup isn't that hard, but @ 6 you have to be very cautious about committing. If he has blue, you just harass him to encourage him to ult to heal it off and call over a jungle gank. It's sorta like facing rumble, he has to push in order to trade effectively, and he has even worse escapes than Rumble does, so just gank his balls off. If he doesn't have blue, you can wear away at his mana pool pretty easily too.
good swains go RoA > chain vest or 2x dorans and maybe a kage lucky pick > chain vest :p
On June 06 2012 16:14 JerKy wrote: Errr with a 40 cs lead you should have stomped him?
Thats what I thought too.
We were both like 60% HP, I was on Double dorans boots he had boots mana crystal. We both ignited and got our full combo off minus Swain's Nevermove which I flashed, I died he lived with like 150~ hp.
Am I doing something horribly wrong? I felt like I had zero kill potential on him, and even with a huge item advantage trades were fairly even. I was rocking a AD reds AD quints Flat MR Yellows and blues, just felt awful. My instinct tells me that next time I see swain I should just start boots and skip Dorans altogether in favour of double null magic mantles -> Hexdrinker/Mercs and just farm while not dying.
EDIT: I guess he had blue buff and just hit six. Probably just a bad spot for me to commit. Shoulda just dodged until his blue gone and whittled down his mana first. I hate laning against swain, always have... he has so much range, and even if you get a fair trade he just heals up with his ult... its not even like you can punish him super hard before six, because they just give him blue.
-.-
ArPen reds would go a long way for you too since Swains don't build armor for a long ass time. The matchup isn't that hard, but @ 6 you have to be very cautious about committing. If he has blue, you just harass him to encourage him to ult to heal it off and call over a jungle gank. It's sorta like facing rumble, he has to push in order to trade effectively, and he has even worse escapes than Rumble does, so just gank his balls off. If he doesn't have blue, you can wear away at his mana pool pretty easily too.
good swains go RoA > chain vest or 2x dorans and maybe a kage lucky pick > chain vest :p
right, they wait like 2K-3K gold before building armor, hence brutalizer smackdown.
Also, panth jungle OP. Mobility boots, gank all day every day. Your ult lets you gank anything all day every day. GG Jungle is for camping, not for farming.
You might have to move to an area near your champ. When I'm using teleport and I click an area before the teleport animation ends, the teleport still goes through.
Pantheon is really crazy, i still have to lose a lane top with him. Granted i play against people 100 elo below me most of the time, they either get completely zoned or just die. I am really wondering when this will end And really hoping it does not. One thing i am currently struggling with is a point you address frequently in your streams. I tend to go bot at lvl 7-9 and kill them with my ult. However, in that time the enemy top free farms and might even take a tower. If i am not miles ahead of the enemy top, i guess this is baaaaaaaad. Another problem is playing against champs that scale better into lategame. Some of them can duel me at level 9 with half my cs and 3 less kills and 2 levels less. Mostly Jax on my elo. But same thing happened with a Morde lately, that had opened shield, tabis, cloth amplyfying tome and suddenly started to kick my ass...wtf?!
On June 10 2012 07:05 0123456789 wrote: How do you cancel panth ult?
Also, panth jungle OP. Mobility boots, gank all day every day. Your ult lets you gank anything all day every day. GG Jungle is for camping, not for farming.
On June 11 2012 21:37 Broetchenholer wrote: Pantheon is really crazy, i still have to lose a lane top with him. Granted i play against people 100 elo below me most of the time, they either get completely zoned or just die. I am really wondering when this will end And really hoping it does not. One thing i am currently struggling with is a point you address frequently in your streams. I tend to go bot at lvl 7-9 and kill them with my ult. However, in that time the enemy top free farms and might even take a tower. If i am not miles ahead of the enemy top, i guess this is baaaaaaaad. Another problem is playing against champs that scale better into lategame. Some of them can duel me at level 9 with half my cs and 3 less kills and 2 levels less. Mostly Jax on my elo. But same thing happened with a Morde lately, that had opened shield, tabis, cloth amplyfying tome and suddenly started to kick my ass...wtf?!
you should be able to still stomp both of them, you just need to play it right. Q @ Jax continually on every CD. Attack him when he jumps on you. Run when he activates dodge. After his dodge stun, get back on top of him to attack with your W. The next time he tries to disengage, HSS to the back as he runs. If you're as ahead as you're saying, you will crush him.
Morde, just pick fights at places where he cannot be charging his shield on creeps and hit you at the same time. The only way he's winning that 1v1 is if he's getting to unload on you and fully charge his shield on creeps with the same casts.
I think Jax should be beatable now after the nerf. Remember that judicious use of Panth's W will block autoattacks, so a lot of what you're being hit by is Empower and Ult procs, and Empower got nerfed by nearly 20%.
Heh, I think I need to work on my Vlad matchup. Just had a game where I got an early gank for a kill, then I dived him at level 5 and killed him again. But at level 9 I lost the exchange and died (he had like 100 health).
I think my mistake was a build one, I didn't get any MR besides Blues and Masteries. I reasoned that their team didn't have much Hard CC, and had little shortrange mobility, so I could get Zerker Greaves for splitting. Also I built Brutalizer instead of Hexdrinker. Vlad, on the other hand, had an early Ninja Tabi and crap. I guess the resists paid off.
You learn something new every game. I need to stop undervaluing Mercs.
On June 12 2012 18:53 HughMyron wrote: Heh, I think I need to work on my Vlad matchup. Just had a game where I got an early gank for a kill, then I dived him at level 5 and killed him again. But at level 9 I lost the exchange and died (he had like 100 health).
I think my mistake was a build one, I didn't get any MR besides Blues and Masteries. I reasoned that their team didn't have much Hard CC, and had little shortrange mobility, so I could get Zerker Greaves for splitting. Also I built Brutalizer instead of Hexdrinker. Vlad, on the other hand, had an early Ninja Tabi and crap. I guess the resists paid off.
You learn something new every game. I need to stop undervaluing Mercs.
I doubt this had much to do with your resistances. Brutalizer is great against casters since they tend not to get any armor early on besides maybe Tabi, and while Mercs would probably have been a much better choice, I don't think it would have made much of a difference.
With Vlad being THAT weak early on on you being THAT strong, you should be able to zone him from any creeps. Vlad is a very binary champ: If you let him reach lvl 9 without giving him too much trouble, he's going to be a threat. A real threat. He's stupidly strong with a combination of Revolver / Tabi / Level 9. If you manage to shut him down early enough, he is going to have a really hard time closing that gap you created.
Considering you killed him twice before he killed you, I'd guess you simply misjudged the situation. With the gold lead you had, assuming you CSd well and zoned him off of CS of his own, there should be no way he can kill you without you diving him. That one kill CAN be enough to snowball the lane back into his favor depending on wether he managed to let you lose enough CS and XP.
Considering you killed him twice before he killed you, I'd guess you simply misjudged the situation. With the gold lead you had, assuming you CSd well and zoned him off of CS of his own, there should be no way he can kill you without you diving him. That one kill CAN be enough to snowball the lane back into his favor depending on wether he managed to let you lose enough CS and XP.
I think I may have Heartseekered sideways instead of at him during the exchange too, but I don't have a replay so I don't remember.
Also I was watching Arch Angeloid play yesterday on the Featured Games, and I was intrigued by his playstyle. He doesn't stack DBlades, he just gets a fast Brut, Phage, and LW. This means he loses lanes against Doran Stackers, but his power in early teamfights is vastly increased.
Not sure about his late Infinity's Edge though. Then again, I guess he could have got Rabadon's Deathcap with a score like 21/7/x.
Considering you killed him twice before he killed you, I'd guess you simply misjudged the situation. With the gold lead you had, assuming you CSd well and zoned him off of CS of his own, there should be no way he can kill you without you diving him. That one kill CAN be enough to snowball the lane back into his favor depending on wether he managed to let you lose enough CS and XP.
I think I may have Heartseekered sideways instead of at him during the exchange too, but I don't have a replay so I don't remember.
Also I was watching Arch Angeloid play yesterday on the Featured Games, and I was intrigued by his playstyle. He doesn't stack DBlades, he just gets a fast Brut, Phage, and LW. This means he loses lanes against Doran Stackers, but his power in early teamfights is vastly increased.
Not sure about his late Infinity's Edge though. Then again, I guess he could have got Rabadon's Deathcap with a score like 21/7/x.
it's a cheesy and bad build, but he's good at playing the playstyle so it works for him. don't forget that it's a bad build though.
On June 13 2012 03:13 Mogwai wrote: it's a cheesy and bad build, but he's good at playing the playstyle so it works for him. don't forget that it's a bad build though.
Yeah I know.
But while we're on the subject of cheesy builds, what do you think of the new Amumu builds (off topic I know) that focus on a DRing Stack into big items like Sunfire/Abby or Rylai? Sometimes they even get Mob Boots. I think Azingy may have popularized them, but not sure.
I've been having more success with them than the typical GP/10 into Shurelia/Aegis specs.
I've always just done gold/10s -> rylais + ayssal + FH or Sunfire. I dunno, if you pull off the early ganks well, the build seems to do well, but you'll frequently see amumus faceplanting with it if they get knocked around by counterjungling or if their team loses jungle control via an early downed tower.
EDIT: also wtf, this is the Pantheon thread... highly off topic :p.
How many Panth players here smartcast E by default (I mean they set the keybind [E] to smartcast it)? I've been doing it, but I often find myself Heartseekering in wrong directions, so I was thinking of moving it to standard cast, since seeing the cone helps. But I also thought it might be noob not to smartcast it.
On June 13 2012 15:29 HughMyron wrote: How many Panth players here smartcast E by default (I mean they set the keybind [E] to smartcast it)? I've been doing it, but I often find myself Heartseekering in wrong directions, so I was thinking of moving it to standard cast, since seeing the cone helps. But I also thought it might be noob not to smartcast it.
I do, but I have done that for about 6 months for all champions, so I eventually got used to it. Nowadays, I modified my input.ini so my normal casts are on Shift+QWER. It's a compromise for when playing champions I don't really play as much and need to pull off clutch plays.
Also, fuck what others think is noob. Whatever works for you works. People have called me noob for building Pantheon the way this guide suggests, people have called me noob for starting blue as Lee Sin without ever asking my reasoning behind it. My point is: as long as you are enjoying yourself and the game, it doesn't matter if some spoiled internet brat thinks not smartcasting it is nooby.
I actually use a different set of smartcasts and crap for all my champions. I usually don't smartcast stuff like Amumu Q, but do on people like Zilean..
On June 13 2012 15:29 HughMyron wrote: How many Panth players here smartcast E by default (I mean they set the keybind [E] to smartcast it)? I've been doing it, but I often find myself Heartseekering in wrong directions, so I was thinking of moving it to standard cast, since seeing the cone helps. But I also thought it might be noob not to smartcast it.
I do, but I have done that for about 6 months for all champions, so I eventually got used to it. Nowadays, I modified my input.ini so my normal casts are on Shift+QWER. It's a compromise for when playing champions I don't really play as much and need to pull off clutch plays.
Also, fuck what others think is noob. Whatever works for you works. People have called me noob for building Pantheon the way this guide suggests, people have called me noob for starting blue as Lee Sin without ever asking my reasoning behind it. My point is: as long as you are enjoying yourself and the game, it doesn't matter if some spoiled internet brat thinks not smartcasting it is nooby.
I smartcast everything but for those clutch situations I eh... click <_<
On June 13 2012 15:29 HughMyron wrote: How many Panth players here smartcast E by default (I mean they set the keybind [E] to smartcast it)? I've been doing it, but I often find myself Heartseekering in wrong directions, so I was thinking of moving it to standard cast, since seeing the cone helps. But I also thought it might be noob not to smartcast it.
I do, but I have done that for about 6 months for all champions, so I eventually got used to it. Nowadays, I modified my input.ini so my normal casts are on Shift+QWER. It's a compromise for when playing champions I don't really play as much and need to pull off clutch plays.
Also, fuck what others think is noob. Whatever works for you works. People have called me noob for building Pantheon the way this guide suggests, people have called me noob for starting blue as Lee Sin without ever asking my reasoning behind it. My point is: as long as you are enjoying yourself and the game, it doesn't matter if some spoiled internet brat thinks not smartcasting it is nooby.
On June 13 2012 15:29 HughMyron wrote: How many Panth players here smartcast E by default (I mean they set the keybind [E] to smartcast it)? I've been doing it, but I often find myself Heartseekering in wrong directions, so I was thinking of moving it to standard cast, since seeing the cone helps. But I also thought it might be noob not to smartcast it.
I do, but I have done that for about 6 months for all champions, so I eventually got used to it. Nowadays, I modified my input.ini so my normal casts are on Shift+QWER. It's a compromise for when playing champions I don't really play as much and need to pull off clutch plays.
Also, fuck what others think is noob. Whatever works for you works. People have called me noob for building Pantheon the way this guide suggests, people have called me noob for starting blue as Lee Sin without ever asking my reasoning behind it. My point is: as long as you are enjoying yourself and the game, it doesn't matter if some spoiled internet brat thinks not smartcasting it is nooby.
Why do you start blue as Lee Sin?
Because with Cloth 5, Exhaust and a good leash, there's a surprisingly high number of junglers you can kill for first blood at their wraiths by simply camping the brush behind red. I don't always do it, but nowadays, I do it more often than the more common wraiths -> red start. It's also great because it leaves you open to counter half of their jungle if they decide to lvl 2 gank after blue.
Anyway, can we get back on track with this thread?
i am relatively new to ranked games and have been playing normal games across all roles for a while, but have always leaned towards AD and hybrid AP/AD characters and playstyles for a while---and so i've always leaned towards champs like pantheon!
i was wondering what sort of difficulties you have in ranked play as pantheon in any lane; are there any specific characters that you actually feel a disadvantage against?
i know that when i play jungle pantheon, i feel my champion has a very strong presence from early to mid game. i am just unable to pick or farm the right items in time for fights nearing the late game, and it feels harder and harder when deaths become more costly.
i guess my curiosity in the different sort of play in ranked games creates very general questions and i'm sorry. what sort of dangers do you look out for the most when you play a serious game as pantheon in ranked?
Well I can answer your question about feeling good early and mid game but falling off late game. Pantheon himself falls off quite sharply lategame without great farm and plenty of kills. Which I'n the jungle your prob not getting that
On June 15 2012 00:23 nanaoei wrote: i am relatively new to ranked games and have been playing normal games across all roles for a while, but have always leaned towards AD and hybrid AP/AD characters and playstyles for a while---and so i've always leaned towards champs like pantheon!
i was wondering what sort of difficulties you have in ranked play as pantheon in any lane; are there any specific characters that you actually feel a disadvantage against?
i know that when i play jungle pantheon, i feel my champion has a very strong presence from early to mid game. i am just unable to pick or farm the right items in time for fights nearing the late game, and it feels harder and harder when deaths become more costly.
i guess my curiosity in the different sort of play in ranked games creates very general questions and i'm sorry. what sort of dangers do you look out for the most when you play a serious game as pantheon in ranked?
You want to ban Malphite, because he shits on you six ways to sunday. There's other champs I personally dislike playing against (Yorick, Olaf for example).
Pantheon usually goes top lane or mid lane, and due to his E and him autoattacking enemy champs frequently, he tends to push the lane quite heavily. Both lanes are prone to camping from the enemy jungler, so that is something to look out for. Other than that, to make full use of Pantheon, you need to decimate your lane opponent. Going even in farm with your enemy works for some champions; Panth isn't one of them. Make sure to kill your opponent, kill him frequently, and then start roaming or gank side lanes.
A good strategy is if you just recalled, tell your jungler to go top and soak up XP and gank bot lane by just running down the lane far enough to use your ultimate. Especially in the lower elo brackets, people don't expect that sort of stuff and get caught off guard by it.
On June 15 2012 00:23 nanaoei wrote: i am relatively new to ranked games and have been playing normal games across all roles for a while, but have always leaned towards AD and hybrid AP/AD characters and playstyles for a while---and so i've always leaned towards champs like pantheon!
i was wondering what sort of difficulties you have in ranked play as pantheon in any lane; are there any specific characters that you actually feel a disadvantage against?
i know that when i play jungle pantheon, i feel my champion has a very strong presence from early to mid game. i am just unable to pick or farm the right items in time for fights nearing the late game, and it feels harder and harder when deaths become more costly.
i guess my curiosity in the different sort of play in ranked games creates very general questions and i'm sorry. what sort of dangers do you look out for the most when you play a serious game as pantheon in ranked?
first of all, if you haven't read the OP, you should. It's still very relevant and may answer some of your questions about playstyle.
As far as poor matchups go, basically pantheon loses to champs that either outtrade him (which are admittedly pretty few), and champs that have 0 opportunity cost to build shitloads of armor to counter him. Examples of the second are malphite and chogath, who can literally just build a bunch of chainvest items and lose out on nothing (whereas other champs have huge dips in power due to lack of dmg), thereby nullifying a vast amount of panth's dmg.
Another type of champ that gives panth trouble are the ones that are, quite simply, designed to give melee champs a hard time. Yorick, urgot, kennen and swain can cause problems for pantheon because of this issue.
there are also a few champs that, after a certain point, panth really cannot threaten with a kill, thereby forcing a farm lane, which tends to be favorable for said champs. I've noticed this most with vlad and gp lanes.
another note regarding laning: Panth is quite vulnerable to ganks, meaning you have to be very aware of what the enemy jungler is doing. If your spidey-sense is even slightly tingling, you have to be very careful about engaging with your opponent.
RE: jungle panth. That's kind of a universal jungle panth problem you're describing that simply arises due to his super low clear speed, meaning you end up with issues transitioning into the late game out of the jungle due to low cash flow. I would try to focus building more towards utility and tankiness and play to babysit the carry (i would think getting stuff like omen or mallet would be a good idea) rather than any damage-oriented builds.
Admittedly, i'm not much of a jungle panth player tho, so smash or some other ppl might have more to say about that. Also, my typical panth laning experience is with ~1400 - 1500 ish players, so it may be a bit different at different elo ranges.
Yeah, anybody can get an early Tabi/Chain Vest, but if you do it on Riven or Irelia, you become a herpbag for a lot of earlymid and midgame, when you're supposed to be really strong. People like Malphite or Cho'Gath don't become herpbags.
As you will probably play more in my elo range as in the elo ranges of those frequently posting in this thread, i can give you some basic advice how things are below starters elo. Pantheon destroys anyone that is not chosen for his survivability. So if someone picks udyr or warwick to respomd to you, you might have a hard time. Those guys might be terrible, but usually they know they are up agsint a heavy harass player and want to play defensively. If you get the typical aggressive laner top, you will destroy them, cause no one knows that they can not trade. I even get people trying to kill me at level 2 in my creeps. Panth is wildly unknown and if they make one bad trade, the lane is lost to them.
The biggest problem you are going to have at this elo is, however, that you will only be able to pick top if you are 1st or 2nd pick. Therefore, you can't really counterpick and it's pretty much a gamble whom you get top. Jungle panth at this level is terrible, because you can't kill people on your own without items. So you are reliant on your laners to do good damage and they usually won't. My jungle games tend to feauture 2 level 2 ganks with the enemies barely getting away due to no damge from laners, then í will need 20 minutes to reach level 6 to be a threat again, while shaco get's fed by my laners. QQ.
eh...i've never had trouble against swain. you wreck him so incredibly hard the first few levels if you play it right you should have a decent lead by the time he can pose a threat to you. same deal with Kennen/Vlad. it could be just that i'm playing against awful swain/kennen/vlads but I doubt it.
i appreciate the discussion a lot, i barely even consider malphite anymore because of how little i see him in regular blind pick... although i really do like playing him a lot and have ideas on how strong he is against many bruisers and AD champs.
i guess i'll have to be setting up a good strategy for jungle panth and later a laning panth for now. i rarely ever get to play solo top as panth anymore. i also noticed that i don't have any fear for the usual riven tops that were so popular a little while ago.
more than number crunching or theory i really emphasize on control, free-trades, and farm.. with farm being most important. i have this sort of habit of just afk farming when my team starts to make mistakes in some way.
i can see that this can be very bad for certain heroes and probably pantheon also as i turn a lane that i had an advantage in, into a farm lane.
the damage from a panth with great items in the early-mid game is an absolute pleasure, haha. it can feel like it's almost impossible to fail a gank.
i don't know why, but i haven't ever had trouble with a kennen in a 1v1 lane yet. apart from being hard to kill past 6 or the obvious ranged attack what other threats does he pose for you? and do you really use pantheon's E very often? i only keep 1 level for the crit-passive unless there are a good amount of squishies i can use it on. i've honestly felt that Q and auto attacks are worth more in damage (in lane and in jungle) than the 3 second channel of a heartseeker (unless it's a ranged finisher)
HSS damage is waaay better than autos, and the cooldown gets pretty short at level 5. HSS is 3 ticks in 0.75 seconds, and the ticks each hit almost as hard as an auto individually. Throw spear, jump, HSS, throw another spear, then auto while your shit is on cooldown. The range is deceptively long, too. Getting good with it in teamfights is what will really make you shine as pantheon. It's also why his strongest point is in the midgame teamfights when he's level 11-12 - you have Q maxed, HSS maxed or almost maxed, you may have finished your BT or at least a BF sword + brutalizer (and dorans ofc), and your damage is really high. Just don't get blown up before you get to output all that damage.
Once you get a decent amount of AD Heartseeker Strike actually does the majority of Spartan's damage. 1.5k+ AoE nuke on a six second cooldown? haha, fuck yeah!
The trick is just acting as zone control for your AD carry instead of diving their squishies. Panths W is pretty good at closing the gap and diving squishies, but usually you dont really have items to effectively do that; much more efficient to sit pretty and blow up someone trying to dive your AD carry. This is actually much easier said than done, I often end up going full retard diving squishies once teamfights break out anyway.
full metal art is better, but default and myrmidon and his icon got BODIED... fuckin' A... why do they have to do this shit? Pantheon's not another Ashe, his art was fine, why change it?
On June 18 2012 13:05 Mogwai wrote: the default full art is passable, but the icon from it is bad
the head art is yeah really bad, I kinda wish they'd change the head art based on the Skin to get rid of some of the worse headarts, but i dont think that'll happen.
Hey guys, had some rough lanes this weekend, getting pretty much destroyed by a riven, an irelia and a fucking udyr. All three lanes started getting ou of control after one close death early on or some jungler gank. Riven was worst. She didn't die because i was oom when all i needed was one fucking spear. Then i got defensive but she killed me again at 6 without breaking a sweat. from there on, she killed me whenever she pleased. The irelia got two succesfull ganks early on and from then on i was pretty much dead when she wanted to commit. Udyr got 3 fucking ganks from jungle rat with exhaust and stuff wtf.
Now, i seem to be completely unable to come back from situations like this. I mean, losing the lane in cs and money is one thing, getting uncontrollably blown up is another. And there does not seem to be any chance of doing that as panth. It shouldn't be iompossible to come back just because their jungler showed up and your didn't.
Had another game vs Vlad, again early ganks and i didn't kill him by 20 hp and no mana again. Next 3-4 minutes i realized he started to outtrade me, next 3-4 minutes i was effectively zoned from creeps outside of turret, next 3-4 minutes i was diveing material and then i was a freekill. I know the last game wasn't my fault, cause i called my jungler for 8 minutes and he first showed up at minute 14, but again, is their a valid strategy against sth like that? I built mercuries, 2 dorans and a scepter, should i try to get more defensive items when i can't trade anymore?
Get your jungler to camp in those cases. Pantheon must destroy his opponent during his prime time, and if you get camped there's not much you can do, so either your jungler uses it to make mid and bot win, or he comes too and you just get double kills.
But Pantheon is very vulnerable to ganks while needing to be aggressive, so getting camped sucks. Just ask Mogwai.
@ the vlad game - mercs aren't actually very good at mitigating magic damage - the null magic mantle has just as much MR as the completed merc treads - vlad isn't CCing you, after all. A third doran instead of the merc combination (stall combining mercs til laning is over) and a hexdrinker if vlad starts getting even.
Scepter isn't that great either - with 9-12% life steal from masteries + dorans, and last hitting with your passive, you should have plenty of lifesteal.
@ Alaric: Yeah, i've experienced that a lot. However, there must be sth you can do. I mean, even if Mogwai get's behind, he doesn't get completely destroyed by that. Can not be that i lost horrible because i wasn't able to kill my enemy before 6.
So I've been thinking - Panth is great in lane with his Q, and his mid/lategame damage relies on his E. So what if I just leave Q at lv3 and start going for E and max it at around lv12~? This should let pantheon be really powerful in mid-game teamfights right?
On June 18 2012 21:01 Broetchenholer wrote: Hey guys, had some rough lanes this weekend, getting pretty much destroyed by a riven, an irelia and a fucking udyr. All three lanes started getting ou of control after one close death early on or some jungler gank. Riven was worst. She didn't die because i was oom when all i needed was one fucking spear. Then i got defensive but she killed me again at 6 without breaking a sweat. from there on, she killed me whenever she pleased. The irelia got two succesfull ganks early on and from then on i was pretty much dead when she wanted to commit. Udyr got 3 fucking ganks from jungle rat with exhaust and stuff wtf.
Now, i seem to be completely unable to come back from situations like this. I mean, losing the lane in cs and money is one thing, getting uncontrollably blown up is another. And there does not seem to be any chance of doing that as panth. It shouldn't be iompossible to come back just because their jungler showed up and your didn't.
Had another game vs Vlad, again early ganks and i didn't kill him by 20 hp and no mana again. Next 3-4 minutes i realized he started to outtrade me, next 3-4 minutes i was effectively zoned from creeps outside of turret, next 3-4 minutes i was diveing material and then i was a freekill. I know the last game wasn't my fault, cause i called my jungler for 8 minutes and he first showed up at minute 14, but again, is their a valid strategy against sth like that? I built mercuries, 2 dorans and a scepter, should i try to get more defensive items when i can't trade anymore?
This sounds more like improper mana management to me, since the common thread seems to be being just barely too low on mana to kill somebody. A couple of things to consider:
A) Panth's autoattacks are just as useful as his spells vs melee champs. Vs folks like udyr/irelia it's quite easy to sneak a couple in with minimal risk. Lots of ppl have a tendency to think that they have to deal 100% of their damage as panth with spearshots before going in and committing for a kill.
B) Focus your spearshots on levels 1, 3, and 5, and conserve your mana on levels 2 and 4, basically, their base armor and hp are going up at lvls 2 and 4 while your spearshot stays the same dmg, so it becomes significantly less worth it to spam it on them. Not saying don't use spearshot at all lvl 2 and 4, but tone it back so you can build up some mana to be aggressive again when you level it up.
hope it helps, kus panth should trash irelia, and should certainly do well vs the majority of rivens. Udyr is kind-of an anomaly since his turtle stance is totally bogus, so after a certain point, panth literally has 0 kill threat towards him and it becomes more/less a farm lane in my experience, which ends up not being a huge deal since udyr doesn't exactly scale any better into the late game than panth does.
On June 18 2012 22:07 Abenson wrote: So I've been thinking - Panth is great in lane with his Q, and his mid/lategame damage relies on his E. So what if I just leave Q at lv3 and start going for E and max it at around lv12~? This should let pantheon be really powerful in mid-game teamfights right?
If you shift priority to E @ level 7, you max E @ level 10. If you just keep maxing Q, you max E @ level 13.
It's not worth it, Q is more consistent damage output early in the game and level 13 for a solo isn't particularly late for real teamfighting to break out.
Yeah, but you have to be careful with Pantheon's autoattacking in lane, and not just because of creep aggro..
Remember that Pantheon is sorta like a melee Teemo in lane: his strength lies in short engagements. Engage with your passive up, block one attack. Stun them for a second and auto again. Your passive is back up, let them take it down as you auto again and go back to lasthitting. There, you just took zero damage from autoattacks while the enemy just got herped.
If you're ever going even in a trade against an autoattacker, that usually means that you're doing something wrong, or just staying too long after you've burned your passive. For example, let's imagine Panth vs. Fiora: Panth completely trashes Fiora, but if you engage her in a 100-to-zero fight, you will prob die close to the same time because you're wasting Panth's trading power/
On June 19 2012 07:43 HughMyron wrote: Yeah, but you have to be careful with Pantheon's autoattacking in lane, and not just because of creep aggro..
Remember that Pantheon is sorta like a melee Teemo in lane: his strength lies in short engagements. Engage with your passive up, block one attack. Stun them for a second and auto again. Your passive is back up, let them take it down as you auto again and go back to lasthitting. There, you just took zero damage from autoattacks while the enemy just got herped.
If you're ever going even in a trade against an autoattacker, that usually means that you're doing something wrong, or just staying too long after you've burned your passive. For example, let's imagine Panth vs. Fiora: Panth completely trashes Fiora, but if you engage her in a 100-to-zero fight, you will prob die close to the same time because you're wasting Panth's trading power/
o.O
not really, most champs in top lane I can literally just sit and fight them after lvl 4 (first lvl in hss). Even before then, if you do a dblade start, at lvls 1 and sometimes 2, you can just sit and keep fighting them because you will come out way ahead.
I dunno about a DBlade start anymore after the nerf, I usually just get complacent and go overaggressive and usually end up losing a lot of health early to creep aggro and counterharass. Not sure if Smash does it after the nerf, but I didn't like it, so I'll just stick to Boots/3.
The choice to open boots or not depends on two things for me--who their jungler is and can i trash them in lane if they open boots and I don't. I like boots/pots a lot more now but dblade is high risk/high reward because if you can manage to farm up 350 + a potion before your first bluepill it gives you an insanely strong 1-6.
Hey guys, I have been playing league for about a year, however, I took a 3 month hiatus just starting up again in the last week. Pantheon was always my favorite character, however, towards the end of my time playing he just seemed severaly underwhelming and weak.
I am curious what the gereral consensus is of how pantheon should be built? High damage, mix damage defense, etc. And, I suppose the more pertinent question would be, is he worth playing at the moment? Getting back into the game I want to go back to champions I liked previously, but I want to make sure my time investment is worth it to relearn the character. And, if so, what general route my build should take.
On June 25 2012 03:29 iCanada wrote: I pick Pantheon into Renekton, because I usually win the matchup. Our Ryze in Champ select says "GG, pantheon gets raped by Renekton, we lose."
I tend to take Renekton to face off against Pantheon as I actually feel comfortable in the matchup. I'm curious what people think in general. I just open cloth x5 and try to get my own harass + sustain w/ Renek's Q and eventually panth gets low enough that he can't be aggressive anymore. If he goes to last hit renek gets free damage and if he just chucks spears, he doesn't last hit.
On June 25 2012 03:29 iCanada wrote: I pick Pantheon into Renekton, because I usually win the matchup. Our Ryze in Champ select says "GG, pantheon gets raped by Renekton, we lose."
I tend to take Renekton to face off against Pantheon as I actually feel comfortable in the matchup. I'm curious what people think in general. I just open cloth x5 and try to get my own harass + sustain w/ Renek's Q and eventually panth gets low enough that he can't be aggressive anymore. If he goes to last hit renek gets free damage and if he just chucks spears, he doesn't last hit.
You can chuck spears and last hit at the same time. <_<
I dunno, I think its a lot like Pantheon vs Riven, very similar matchup. I just start boots and poke like a boss. You just need to manage your CD's well. In particular, Renekton's CD's are massive... any time he uses his Q/W he is so useless till they back up; you just have to harrass him at range, and then use your W to disengage whenever he goes to use his skills. Then any time he uses his skills take that 15 seconds or so and beat his face in.
People always tell me Renekton should smash my face in, but I guess I'm just really comfortable with the matchup.
Pantheon bodies Renek if left to their own devices. Renek can roll him with early jungle pressure, but he needs a significant edge handed to him in order to win.
Out of curosity, exactly what runes/masteries do you use against Renekton? It's a matchup I tend to just barely lose all of the time- partly because of massive jungler interference, but I feel like I lose even when I should be coming out ahead.
21/0/9 and flat mana regen seals? Do you change up your glyphs for the matchup?
Pantheon is a situationally viable mid (and bot) though, in my opinion at least.
And as people get better at a champion, mana management comes naturally. When I started playing Kayle Top, I used to run oom all the time. Now, while I play fairly aggressively, I don't run oom nearly as often. When people complain about Kayle's mana problems, I wonder "are we playing the same champion?"
On June 26 2012 13:01 HughMyron wrote: Pantheon is a situationally viable mid (and bot) though, in my opinion at least.
And as people get better at a champion, mana management comes naturally. When I started playing Kayle Top, I used to run oom all the time. Now, while I play fairly aggressively, I don't run oom nearly as often. When people complain about Kayle's mana problems, I wonder "are we playing the same champion?"
I play a lot of Pantheon + Taric bot lane on my smurf, lol, shit's hilarious. And yes, he is somewhat viable in those lanes, I'm just saying I pretty much only play him at my real elo top lane.
On June 26 2012 13:01 HughMyron wrote: Pantheon is a situationally viable mid (and bot) though, in my opinion at least.
And as people get better at a champion, mana management comes naturally. When I started playing Kayle Top, I used to run oom all the time. Now, while I play fairly aggressively, I don't run oom nearly as often. When people complain about Kayle's mana problems, I wonder "are we playing the same champion?"
I play a lot of Pantheon + Taric bot lane on my smurf, lol, shit's hilarious. And yes, he is somewhat viable in those lanes, I'm just saying I pretty much only play him at my real elo top lane.
Loci really liked Mid Pantheon - what champs / teamcomps would you say Midtheon works best against?
uh, I guess he trashes Kassadin pretty hard but so does pretty much everyone...
I dunno, most mids can just shove vs. Pantheon and there's jack shit you can do about it. if you play him mid, you should probably just do the arch angeloid build where you forgo dblades and just rush bruta and gank on every ult CD. I don't think he lanes well mid, but it does open you up for ult ganks to both bot and top.
Skillshot champs or champs that are usually weak early game that don't have the power to win trades against you when you force fights with them. If they're gonna shove against you Panth can assist a gank np? I guess Panth doesn't have many favorable matchups mid, but if you catch them off guard with lanes or have a clear skill difference Panth can still be in favor.
Been playing a lot of pantheon mid/top lately ~2.2k elo.
Boots 2x dorans merc treads (only mid against heavy cc) brutalizer and hexdrinker (order depending on where I am and who I am facing) finish boots if haven't bloodthirster maw of mal GA sell brutalizer for lw infinity edge or other tanky item
Like mentioned earlier, I avoid taking him mid against heavy pushers, such as cass, since if you don't get a commanding lead early, you will likely be unable to control the lane very well. His damage is insane, good positioning for team fights, and snowballs like crazy. Great solo queue champ.
Also to note is that I go 21/3/6 on him and the 3 in defense is either armor or mr depending on who I face.
I've had some good games as mid Panth- as people have pointed out, being able to gank either lane post 6 is really cool.
My one problem is I just don't know what to do against Brand, it's hard to avoid his skill shots, and if I jump on him he can stun me and hit me with his full combo. The only times I do well is against people who make mistakes. Am I missing something, or is just a bad matchup?
Pantheon is good mid against champs that have a hard time landing combos or need their spells to farm. Like veigar. You should win most poke trading, but when the mid champ can unload his whole combo on you, like brand or Annie, you are screwed.
Brand is a skill matchup, he must be out footsieing you. Try and bait his spells by constantly trying to position yourself aggressively. You have the highest base movespeed in the game so use it to your advantage, otherwise if you just sit back behind your creeps he'll zone you. You need to exert your presence/pressure him a bit to keep him on his toes, and not the other way around. Making him miss his spells will give you some openings to sneak in some spears. Sneaking in 2-3 spears in quick sucession before he can pot up will put him in kill range in which you can all-in him and either get a kill or force him to back. Eventually though Brand will get his levels and can just sit back and farm from safety. Levels 3, 4, and 5 are probably when you should be most aggressive.
If Brand gets E at level 1 he'll beat you in an immediate trade, but his E has a longer CD so you can chuck some more spears if he wants to cs, barring mana constraints.
W 1st is all footsies, if he misses his pillar of flame you have free reign of the lane for 10 seconds.
Brand's one of those champs who can pretty safely just push the lane, so he falls under the type of mid champs I hate trying to lane against. The fact that he can just blow your face off with his combo when you try to commit is frustrating too. I dunno, I just like Pantheon top, so many mids feel like a draw if the opponent just plays passively.
On June 26 2012 17:48 PieceOCake wrote: Does tanky dps Pantheon work at all? or is it futile to try?
it can work. Back in the day (dunno if he even plays anymore?), maknoon used to do stuff with frozen mallet atmas kinds of builds. I know that ghostblade/mallet/atmas/GA still works just fine, i trashed some ppl not terribly long ago with a similar build at ~1400ish elo. Smash hates those kinds of builds, but they can work ok (both from my experience and from watching some of maknoon's games), they just require a bit different style of play, being more about fighting in the thick of things rather than dancing around and hss'ing fools.
edit: probably tossing maw in there somewhere would be really good too.
On June 26 2012 19:53 Broetchenholer wrote: Pantheon is good mid against champs that have a hard time landing combos or need their spells to farm. Like veigar. You should win most poke trading, but when the mid champ can unload his whole combo on you, like brand or Annie, you are screwed.
Funny you say "have a hard time landing combos" and "veigar" in the same sentence. I didnt know it was hard walking up to someone, dropping stun and going 1(W, if necessary/if you have more than 1 point in E)QRD and taking a kill. Veigar's full combo is more damage than brand or annie - especially considering he generally gets DFG which just makes it more scary.
Mallet builds are fine, just remember that Atma's kinda blows on Panth after Riot nerfed it.
Personally I think Trinity Force (as an endgame item, not a rush item) is usually superior to Mallet. If you compare them in a 1v1 splitpushing situation, TriForce is better since Pantheon gets a lot of procs, and he becomes a better chaser. Also, more damage to towers. Mallet gives more survivability, but you'll usually only need that in teamfights, where you kinda waste Mallet's slow proc because your team should be bringing the CC. You have to remember that a lot of Mallet's gold value is tied up in its slow, it's not an intrinsically cost effective item. Trinity Force is way better as a damage option and a splitpusher's choice.
On June 27 2012 10:26 HughMyron wrote: Mallet builds are fine, just remember that Atma's kinda blows on Panth after Riot nerfed it.
Personally I think Trinity Force (as an endgame item, not a rush item) is usually superior to Mallet. If you compare them in a 1v1 splitpushing situation, TriForce is better since Pantheon gets a lot of procs, and he becomes a better chaser. Also, more damage to towers. Mallet gives more survivability, but you'll usually only need that in teamfights, where you kinda waste Mallet's slow proc because your team should be bringing the CC. You have to remember that a lot of Mallet's gold value is tied up in its slow, it's not an intrinsically cost effective item. Trinity Force is way better as a damage option and a splitpusher's choice.
atmas is just fine on mallet panth imo, because mallet panth is more about spearshots/stun/autoattacking than hss'ing, so that raw AD you lose out on isn't as big of a deal as the crit you get on atmas, esp if you have something like ghostblade or another crit item.
I just had to lane vs.a malphite and I decided to say fuck it and go balls out mres spec and open double gold/10. was actually pretty effective, hit my BT @19 mins or so then went LW -> GA and felt good about it. Just something to keep in mind if you have to lane vs. malph or rumble or yorick or something.
On June 28 2012 03:33 Mogwai wrote: I just had to lane vs.a malphite and I decided to say fuck it and go balls out mres spec and open double gold/10. was actually pretty effective, hit my BT @19 mins or so then went LW -> GA and felt good about it. Just something to keep in mind if you have to lane vs. malph or rumble or yorick or something.
I've never really had that much trouble with rumble. But what's the play against malphite then, rush out your philo and just farm your balls off?
On June 28 2012 03:33 Mogwai wrote: I just had to lane vs.a malphite and I decided to say fuck it and go balls out mres spec and open double gold/10. was actually pretty effective, hit my BT @19 mins or so then went LW -> GA and felt good about it. Just something to keep in mind if you have to lane vs. malph or rumble or yorick or something.
I've never really had that much trouble with rumble. But what's the play against malphite then, rush out your philo and just farm your balls off?
yea, just sit back, say fuck it and last hit with spears is what I did. I guess I just came to the realization that you get dblades to do damage and sustain from auto attacks and you can't do that vs. malphite, so I'd rather just stay out of his E range and have the regen for his Q harass and using my Q for last hitting. Then I got HoG to give myself enough of an HP buffer to not die, bought nmm to mitigate his Qs, and then just went straight for BT -> LW.
Are you still maxing q with that playstyle, Smash? I've been playing much the same way since I picked up panth recently, and running into a ton of Malphs thanks to I guess the clg sub's performance. Not actually running a MR page but I guess it'll help. But yeah, if we are playing a farm at tower style and rush straight BT style panth, wondering if it'll be worth it to simply max e for increased teamfight utility.
The surge of malph top is annoying as hell though, can't even play blind pick and not run into a malph QQ
On June 28 2012 06:07 Ecael wrote: Are you still maxing q with that playstyle, Smash? I've been playing much the same way since I picked up panth recently, and running into a ton of Malphs thanks to I guess the clg sub's performance. Not actually running a MR page but I guess it'll help. But yeah, if we are playing a farm at tower style and rush straight BT style panth, wondering if it'll be worth it to simply max e for increased teamfight utility.
The surge of malph top is annoying as hell though, can't even play blind pick and not run into a malph QQ
yea, still Q max, I dunno, you still get more out of Q in skirmishes and you're still typically 13 by the time you really want maxed HSS.
Does the thing where you ult and then use W while mid-air so that you land on them even if they're out the circle still work? My friend seems to not be able to do it and I don't know if it got fixed or if he's just bad.
On July 04 2012 19:44 HazMat wrote: Does the thing where you ult and then use W while mid-air so that you land on them even if they're out the circle still work? My friend seems to not be able to do it and I don't know if it got fixed or if he's just bad.
He's just bad, it still works.
As soon as you can W-click them (aka they're inside the circle for a moment), do it. Then HANDS OFF THE KEYBOARD. If they now leave the circle you will jump onto them no matter what distance. If you try to W-click them again while you're still in flight but they're already out of it you will successfully cancel the entire thing.
On July 04 2012 20:01 HazMat wrote: Does it matter if smartcast is on or not, like that one garen bug?
I smartcast and I can do both Pantheon and Garen's massive range thingies.
One thing to note tho is that if you do Pantheon's super long range stun thingie you won't do the damage/slow from the ult if you end up jumping too far.
Uh. I don't smartcast it but I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it. 100% sure that I follow flashes with that stuff easily though, at least double the circle works definitly.
You just spam W like crazy after the actual ulti ring appears and you should follow them anywhere, I once followed probably around 2000 units (Was graves E and a flash)
On July 04 2012 20:31 Shikyo wrote: You just spam W like crazy after the actual ulti ring appears and you should follow them anywhere, I once followed probably around 2000 units (Was graves E and a flash)
I followed someone back to fountain once (he b'd). Was really weird, my champ disappeared for a few seconds after landing, then it came up with 'you have been slain'.
i just saw a little section on korean nicegameTV for LoL where garimto was very passionately singing GANGNAM STYLE about pantheon (with altered lyrics).
i have no clue what he what he was actually singing but i'm sure it was manly, rofl. and pantheon suits him!
and yeah, the pantheon stun-queue definitely still works the same as before. imo, it really makes or breaks a pantheon at times ; . ;.. i mean pantheon has a great movespeed stat, but people start to position themselves better and a lot depends on landing that stun.
I've never played Pantheon, but I was watching Smash stream when he explained it one time.
Once the second circle appears, you have to W(just once!) onto a champion that is currently within W range of the center of the circle. Don't continue to spam W because this will overwrite your command with a new command, and if the champion moves out of range and you continue to W him, it won't work.(I think Pantheon will start walking towards the champion once he lands and then jump on him when Panth gets in range.) Once you "land", Pantheon will execute the jump no matter where the champion is on the map as long as the champion was in range when you queued the W.
On July 26 2012 18:27 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Jungle pantheon is so legit right now it's not even funny
Do you max hss to farm dat jangle?
pretty sure you still max Q. E doesn't do much dmg to creep and Q gives you more dps overall. it's also lower cd so it lets you proc your passive more often
On July 04 2012 20:01 HazMat wrote: Does it matter if smartcast is on or not, like that one garen bug?
I smartcast and I can do both Pantheon and Garen's massive range thingies.
One thing to note tho is that if you do Pantheon's super long range stun thingie you won't do the damage/slow from the ult if you end up jumping too far.
On July 04 2012 20:01 HazMat wrote: Does it matter if smartcast is on or not, like that one garen bug?
I smartcast and I can do both Pantheon and Garen's massive range thingies.
One thing to note tho is that if you do Pantheon's super long range stun thingie you won't do the damage/slow from the ult if you end up jumping too far.
what is this Garen bug
iunno if it still works, but last time I played garen you could queue up garen's ulti the same way you can queue up Panth's spells. Basically when you're spinning as garen, you can target someone with your ulti during your spin when it almost ends. After your spin ends, you'll automatically cast your ult on them regardless of how far away they are as long as you maintain vision.
Is the camera behaving in a new way with Pantheon's ult compared to a month or two ago?
Maybe I'm delusional, but I feel like Pantheon's ult would never affect the camera previously. Now when I ult, the camera automatically refocuses on the giant circle at the time when I can start queueing up a stun. This makes it incredibly difficult to click on tiny teemo with my screen shifting at that exact moment. I just want my screen to stay, like a good doggie.
Is this a new bug or something? I don't remember having this problem before. Anyone else?
I tried that tonight, but then you can't watch what happens prior to jumping. You still have to scramble around looking for a target. Whereas before I could locate my target, then queue up a stun the instant the second circle appeared, even if they were about to exit the circle. Now it's too jarring and I miss the target pretty frequently.
What makes Guardian Angel better than Warmogs on Pantheon? My thinking is that the sustain from warmogs would be more beneficial than the revive since I'm usually not diving carries but instead peeling for my own carries. And my first thought was that his passive has better synergies with HP than resists.
On August 27 2012 00:36 Ghost-z wrote: What makes Guardian Angel better than Warmogs on Pantheon? My thinking is that the sustain from warmogs would be more beneficial than the revive since I'm usually not diving carries but instead peeling for my own carries. And my first thought was that his passive has better synergies with HP than resists.
His passive doesn't synergize with either, actually. The amount your passive blocks is linked to how much your opponents autos doe rather than your total HP/resists/ehp.
GA (revives you with 750 HP, has 68 armo, 38 MR)is awesome because it just gives more effective hit points than Warmog (975HP+stacking) assuming the refresh is active, and it costs 400 gold less.
And actually, I've been building Aegis on Pantheon a lot recently, feels like you get it at a nicer breakpoint than GA. I do quite like having Aegis/GA/HPitem here.
On August 27 2012 00:36 Ghost-z wrote: What makes Guardian Angel better than Warmogs on Pantheon? My thinking is that the sustain from warmogs would be more beneficial than the revive since I'm usually not diving carries but instead peeling for my own carries. And my first thought was that his passive has better synergies with HP than resists.
His passive doesn't synergize with either, actually. The amount your passive blocks is linked to how much your opponents autos doe rather than your total HP/resists/ehp.
GA (revives you with 750 HP, has 68 armo, 38 MR)is awesome because it just gives more effective hit points than Warmog (975HP+stacking) assuming the refresh is active, and it costs 400 gold less.
And actually, I've been building Aegis on Pantheon a lot recently, feels like you get it at a nicer breakpoint than GA. I do quite like having Aegis/GA/HPitem here.
GA gives 750 HP every 5 minutes, while warmogs give 1350 every 1 min. which is a big difference (150/1350). You can trade armor, MR for health regen.
On August 27 2012 00:36 Ghost-z wrote: What makes Guardian Angel better than Warmogs on Pantheon? My thinking is that the sustain from warmogs would be more beneficial than the revive since I'm usually not diving carries but instead peeling for my own carries. And my first thought was that his passive has better synergies with HP than resists.
His passive doesn't synergize with either, actually. The amount your passive blocks is linked to how much your opponents autos doe rather than your total HP/resists/ehp.
GA (revives you with 750 HP, has 68 armo, 38 MR)is awesome because it just gives more effective hit points than Warmog (975HP+stacking) assuming the refresh is active, and it costs 400 gold less.
And actually, I've been building Aegis on Pantheon a lot recently, feels like you get it at a nicer breakpoint than GA. I do quite like having Aegis/GA/HPitem here.
GA gives 750 HP every 5 minutes, while warmogs give 1350 every 1 min. which is a big difference (150/1350). You can trade armor, MR for health regen.
This is true, regen is really solid, however I'd much rather have GA proc and resists in a teamfight than a warmogs. Just a better teamfight item.
Well my thought was since his passive only blocks enemy autos (physical damage) that armor isn't as needed and therefor MR or HP would be better overall. However I can see where having a nice mix of HP, Arm, Res, and some damage from Aegis is actually a great all around item.
Also the lifesteal from BT works better in combo with resists than flat HP so is it effective to build Aegis then GA after damage items? Basically boots > Bruta > BT > Aegis > GA would be the all around build.
What boots are best on pantheon? Are the resists from Aegis and GA enough to warrant Berzerkers Greaves early game? I've seen people recommending it on some builds but Pantheon doesn't rely on autos enough to make it more cost effective than defensive boots does he?
I dont like Zerker greaves on pantheon. Imo Merc treads best boots hands down, if there absolutely no magic damage on the enemy team then ninja tabies good buy, but usually Merc treads my purchase.
If you roaming a lot i'd consider Boots of Mobility.
Looking at base stats alone Warmogs easily out classes the other two defensive items at this stage of the game. It's also slightly more expensive. Interestingly Aegis is slightly better than GA for raw stats so it just comes down to would you rather have the respawn or the team aura.
I will definitely switch out GA for Aegis in my builds because it's cheaper, better base stats, and supports my team. Although if I am fed I will go instead for the warmogs
Looking at base stats alone Warmogs easily out classes the other two defensive items at this stage of the game. It's also slightly more expensive. Interestingly Aegis is slightly better than GA for raw stats so it just comes down to would you rather have the respawn or the team aura.
I will definitely switch out GA for Aegis in my builds because it's cheaper, better base stats, and supports my team. Although if I am fed I will go instead for the warmogs
Your GA numbers are off, you need to add the 750 HP you respawn with. GA is definitely a much stronger personal defensive item than Aegis or Warmogs when you factor in the revive in teamfight. You are also able to play really ballsy with it too.
So at 18 with GA you'd have 1999 base HP (although realisitcally you likely have dblades) as well as the 750 from GA revive in a teamfight giving you 2749 hp. So you eHP vs armor would be 2749*(1+1.55)= 7009.95, and an eHP against magic of 2749*(1+1.16)=5937.84.
To add to what iCanada said, there's also the fact that Warmogs is quite a bit mroe expensive than either GA or Aegis. Not to mention the amount of farm/kills/assists you'll need to stack it. Not only that, but you're completely forgetting about the ehp you gain from your lifesteal, which scales better with resists.
On August 27 2012 05:04 Ryuu314 wrote: To add to what iCanada said, there's also the fact that Warmogs is quite a bit mroe expensive than either GA or Aegis. Not to mention the amount of farm/kills/assists you'll need to stack it. Not only that, but you're completely forgetting about the ehp you gain from your lifesteal, which scales better with resists.
Yeah, this too.
In terms of gold efficiency Aegis>GA>Warmog.
Not to say that Warmogs isn't a good item, but i'd much rather have just a GA than just a Warmogs.
And just to chime in, leaguecraft often has a lot of mistakes in it's champion builder. I noticed that for Kayle it states that http://leaguecraft.com/builder/kayle Kayle has 130 AD at level 18. Kayle has 53.3+2.8*18=103.7 damage at level 18.
I'm not sure if your Effective HP calculators are off or not due to wrong armor/life values. Try to consider how much magic and armor pen enemies will likely have. I don't use builders anymore. I find that they're wrong way too often.
Add in that armor and mr work better with health pots for sustaining in lane, or with sustain abilities, and that having extra health can help combat true damage from ignite in lanes where everything is decided in one trade, and your math starts to look pretty shabby. Consider that GA isn't up for every team fight if you die and you lose out on even more there. GA can help you revive but you might be reviving to 5 people waiting to chain stun you or you might revive and have all your CD's off and be able to put some hurt on your enemy squishies.
Most pros have no idea what items are efficient or are not. They just know that they can win some games with the skills they have and the items they chose. Most items are situational. I recommend you throw this kind of math out the window and try things out. The best kind of analysis comes from replays.
On December 28 2012 08:57 Alaric wrote: 21-9-0 typically, I guess you could get away with 21-0-9 in some easy lanes (mp5 for more spear harass, stuff like that).
The first 11 points in defensive are so much weaker now than they were in season 2, so I always run 9 utility for mana regen/summoner spell CDR/Buff Duration.
Have you changed your views on item building with s3, btw? Most people seemed to buy dblades->bruta->BT in s2, even when they could straight up BFS (with or without dblades), and they seem to have kept that in s3, going straight up bruta->BC in every single case. I feel like it's a good item for late game peeler Panth, when you can stun and immediatly shred anyone diving your carry, but that it's a total waste of Panth's midgame compared to BT, even when there's other sources of damage on your team.
Depends on lane matchup, but typically bruta -> BT -> BC is my progression. I tend to try to smooth out the build path by going ruby and vamp scepter any time between before bruta and before BT, when it seems prudent to do so as a replacement for Dblades. LW next, then GA, then Aegis/Hexdrinker/BT as necessary.
When you play pantheon mid, what do you do in the team fights? I mean when you are mid you have to build damage: Brut, Cleaver, BT, etc. but when you dive in the middle you are "instagibbed", you are not like the AP carries who can shoot from distance, pantheon real damage is in the melee auto-attacks, but if you build him tanky (like when he is top) then not enough damage in the team?
Okay dudes, new build order against AP heavy teams (or even standard AP mid).
The idea is to max out your CDR and utilize your heartseeker your massive Armor shredding. You should be peeling for your ADC with your short cd stun and your armor reduction. If not, you can try diving their ADC with your ult.
Bruta Boots Longswords + Ruby Crystal
Convert the Bruta into a Black Cleaver and then buy another Bruta with the longswords. Afterwards buy yourself a Spirit Visage.
At this point you should have:
Black Cleaver Bruta Spirit Visage Mercs or Dodge Boots
Note: Now you have 40% CDR and your mid game core is essentially done. At this point you shouldn't really be getting more damage for a long time. You should just try to get tanky using your own discretion. Usually I get a warmogs and a randuins and then get a last whisper for my bruta spot (you can use a blue pot to keep your CDR capped later on). ALso, something worth investing in during the midgame is a vamp scepter. using panth's passive crit it can help you get some life back relatively easily. You can replace the last whisper with a BT in the build below if you feel it necessary.
Your end game build should be something along the lines of:
Black Cleaver Last Whisper (or BT if you opted for the vamp scepter) Boots Warmogs Spirit Visage Randuins/some armor item
I've had some success with it, and I think it's worth giving a shot.
For those 10% CDR why not a Locket? It'll give you a bit of armour against the inevitable physical damage (even in double AP team) and the shield will benefit to the AD you're peeling for, for example against burst.
How is Mantheon nowadays? It seems like the AD assassin mid phase has faded in favor or league of warmogs. Additionally I just don't see very many Mantheons compared to the insane number of Xin's and perma-banned Khazix. How is he nowadays?
On February 18 2013 12:30 DeltaBravo wrote: How is Mantheon nowadays? It seems like the AD assassin mid phase has faded in favor or league of warmogs. Additionally I just don't see very many Mantheons compared to the insane number of Xin's and perma-banned Khazix. How is he nowadays?
To be honest, he's not that great and you'll never see him in competitive play. As always it you have about a 15 minute window to not lose the game. if you can beat your lane and gank bot lane well with your ult you can win. If you have unsuccessful ults or die in lane (so that you're behind in farm) you've pretty much lost the game, unfortunately.
But, that being said, he is the original dunkmaster. The undisputed king of dunks. He dunks from half way across the map. All the other "dunkers" are bitches.
Spirit of the Elder Lizard is a godsend for (lane) Panth. I rush it after Dblade, followed by brutalizer and cdr boots. The 40% cdr with masteries feels very, very powerful.
Panth top is fun as ever, and he still dunks Renekton which is quite handy these days.
If you're a man you start dblade. Otherwise I have no idea, I spam flask too much on any champion to know the "valid" starters. I guess Red Elixir could work too.
On July 06 2013 20:29 Alaric wrote: If you're a man you start dblade. Otherwise I have no idea, I spam flask too much on any champion to know the "valid" starters. I guess Red Elixir could work too.
Nah just go Dblade. Every matchup. Every lane.
Panth runs at 355, so just pressure until lvl3, back, shop, and come back with a build advantage since you didn't buy consumables/regen.
Has anyone tried Bruiser Panth? I've been having great success with it lately, even when falling behind or even one game in a 1v2.
Still working out the best starting build but the idea is for a midgame with Ancient Golem, BotRK and Phage/FM. Your tankyness and passive makes you extremely durable, you've got incredible sticking power and a surprisingly strong execute. RK active at 30-40% gets you close enough for an auto or spear to get them to HSS passive range at which point they're toast.
EPT![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100202040106/leagueoflegends/images/c/c7/Pantheon_MyrmidonSkin.jpg)
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it's pantheon after all![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wCLVA.jpg)
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I get focused hard, blown up every team fight and finish like 8-7, we lose. asd;flkj I'm used to carrying hard when I get a feed like that with Gangplank or Irelia QQ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eouFl.png)
