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On January 09 2012 11:22 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:01 Shiv. wrote:On January 09 2012 10:40 Shikyo wrote:
i tried panth vs gang. "denied" him so that he couldnt lasthit with melee, even so. Wide open to jungle ganks. so with jungle help i couldnt deny him the whole time. Also. He just bought philo and other gp5 items and spammed parrrley and heal, he was healing over 300 hp with heal so it also meant my harrass was just a waste of mana.
Now in the midgame or so i have 120 creeps he has 71, I call this a clear victory for him although i denied him as hard as i had mana. So, I still think panth is bad vs gang, sad I believed you guys and tried this -.- You not being able to execute how to play that lane does not make it a bad matchup. Pantheon RAPES GP. Learn when to pull and push lanes, ward properly, then the jungle pressure becomes relatively obsolete for your team. (as in: your jungler can freeroam like he pleases to) You allowing him 71 CS when you have 120 (around 16-17 minutes) is a sign of not playing the lane correctly in my opinion. It's nowhere near his BEST matchup in my opinion, but there's no way you should let him stay in the game like that. Like, he has to max W in order to heal as hard as he did and how on earth does he parrley creeps without eating QWE, especially if he eats oranges on CD? Then, he was behind and got GP10. Do something. Tell your team you are WAY stronger right now and he's a nonfactor in teamfights. Push turrets like mad, what are they gonna do? Panth is by no means useless. What the fuck. I warded properly, as you perhaps understood from me never gotten ganked by the jungler, I just couldn't deny gang so he could freefarm when the jungler was around. Isn't that exactly what I said? Yeah, he maxed heal first with only lvl 1 parrrrley. And he did only eat Q, I couldn't QWE without being in range of his turret. 2 times I did QWE though but that's not mana efficient at all compared to just spear spam so I stopped doing that. And yeah I wish I knew how to play it correctly if it's not correct when he cant melee a creep unless it's at his tower, constantly eats spears, and his jungler has to camp top and he still gets denied. Please share me your wisdom? I can't just tank a 10 creep wave for 50 years to hold the wave in place as you probably would like me to, that would make me lose way too much hp, so it's necessary for the lane to push sometimes. Think Panth has absolutely no way of winning that lane ever and gets super hardcountered by philo gangplank. Oh okay so the way panth counters gangplank is by going to push other lanes and letting gangplank freefarm while defending the turret you're pushing with his ulti? That sounds like a great idea
I don't think it's an issue of you beating gp but the issue sounds like it's rather you dont know what to do with your 50 cs x lvl lead over gp.
yes, if gp goes wriggles, double gp/10, and maxes oranges, he can avoid getting killed outright, but he'll still be behind. while gp is playing catchup, you need to exert your advantage in helping your team snowball and get more ahead.
obviously, if you can't use that advantage to get your team an unsurmountable lead, then gp will catch up and crush you lategame. that's how it is with all early-game oriented champions, like leblanc.
And i still wanna know how you're supposed to lane against sion :[
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On January 09 2012 11:22 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:01 Shiv. wrote:On January 09 2012 10:40 Shikyo wrote:
i tried panth vs gang. "denied" him so that he couldnt lasthit with melee, even so. Wide open to jungle ganks. so with jungle help i couldnt deny him the whole time. Also. He just bought philo and other gp5 items and spammed parrrley and heal, he was healing over 300 hp with heal so it also meant my harrass was just a waste of mana.
Now in the midgame or so i have 120 creeps he has 71, I call this a clear victory for him although i denied him as hard as i had mana. So, I still think panth is bad vs gang, sad I believed you guys and tried this -.- You not being able to execute how to play that lane does not make it a bad matchup. Pantheon RAPES GP. Learn when to pull and push lanes, ward properly, then the jungle pressure becomes relatively obsolete for your team. (as in: your jungler can freeroam like he pleases to) You allowing him 71 CS when you have 120 (around 16-17 minutes) is a sign of not playing the lane correctly in my opinion. It's nowhere near his BEST matchup in my opinion, but there's no way you should let him stay in the game like that. Like, he has to max W in order to heal as hard as he did and how on earth does he parrley creeps without eating QWE, especially if he eats oranges on CD? Then, he was behind and got GP10. Do something. Tell your team you are WAY stronger right now and he's a nonfactor in teamfights. Push turrets like mad, what are they gonna do? Panth is by no means useless. What the fuck. I warded properly, as you perhaps understood from me never gotten ganked by the jungler, I just couldn't deny gang so he could freefarm when the jungler was around. Isn't that exactly what I said? Yeah, he maxed heal first with only lvl 1 parrrrley. And he did only eat Q, I couldn't QWE without being in range of his turret. 2 times I did QWE though but that's not mana efficient at all compared to just spear spam so I stopped doing that. And yeah I wish I knew how to play it correctly if it's not correct when he cant melee a creep unless it's at his tower, constantly eats spears, and his jungler has to camp top and he still gets denied. Please share me your wisdom? I can't just tank a 10 creep wave for 50 years to hold the wave in place as you probably would like me to, that would make me lose way too much hp, so it's necessary for the lane to push sometimes. Think Panth has absolutely no way of winning that lane ever and gets super hardcountered by philo gangplank. Oh okay so the way panth counters gangplank is by going to push other lanes and letting gangplank freefarm while defending the turret you're pushing with his ulti? That sounds like a great idea
Gonna answer paragraph by paragraph.
Tell your team to take advantage of when their jungler is camping top. Nothing stops them from doing dragon and pushing turrets while he is top.
By level 9, he should either have died several times or lost a lot of XP because you zone him hardcore. He runs out of mana fast if he maxes W, so I don't see how QWE isn't mana efficient against him. You should be around level 11, that's a level 3/4 HSS. That shit hurts. You should also have a Brutalizer at that point, which means you can drop him in one combo as soon as he hits like 70%. You are aware you can towerdive like mad with Spear (first block) -> W (second block) -> Auto -> HSS cancel -> Auto -> Spear (3rd block) and an Ignite? How does he farm under turret with that pressure in mind, Q+maxed W run him oom ridiculously fast.
I already said that, but if their jungler camps you, tell your team to take advantage of that. You make rest of the map a 4v3, which equals a win for your team.
You can tank a 10 minion creep wave for stupid amounts of time. Get 2-3 pots and realize you constantly lifesteal off of crits.
Philo is 820 gold, that's 30-40 CS. How does he get 40 in any reasonable amount of time, I mean, wat? You should at least double his CS and have double dorans and probably a long sword. How on earth is he supposed to deal with that? How can you not take advantage of that huge lead? And please don't tell me he started Regrowth, that'd just be the epitome of ridiculing yourself.
And yeah, you can tell your jungler to hold top for you and push because you are supposed to be stronger than everyone on the map early on. Hell, even if you go 5v4, you can get a dragon and at least two towers out of that if you play it correctly.
Also, I'd be really interested how on earth he would manage to get MULTIPLE GP10s and a Wriggle's before the game is basically decided. That's 3200ish gold. How does he get 3k+ gold laning against Panth?
It sounds like you didn't manage your creeps correctly and don't know how to push your advantage over him and suffered from that. That's about it.
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He started rejuv pendant -> philo and he indeed managed to farm the 365 gold pretty fast for philo, after which he had quite a bit of mana to spam heal.
Also I dunno if you knew this but pantheons skills cost a ton of mana and gangplank had teleport giving him a free heal.
I honestly believe that the gangplank has to absolutely suck if you can somehow kill him in lane if he maxes W
Also you seriously seem to completely ignore the jungler camping, it's not like I have problems denying if I can hump the edge of his tower range the whole time...
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destroyed irelia. she had 13 cs at lv7 and was 2 lvls behind me
I feel so good now 
and I gave the irelia the first loss w/ irelia. Hes now 6-1 with irelia
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On January 09 2012 12:29 Shikyo wrote:
He started rejuv pendant -> philo and he indeed managed to farm the 365 gold pretty fast for philo, after which he had quite a bit of mana to spam heal.
Also I dunno if you knew this but pantheons skills cost a ton of mana and gangplank had teleport giving him a free heal.
I honestly believe that the gangplank has to absolutely suck if you can somehow kill him in lane if he maxes W
Also you seriously seem to completely ignore the jungler camping, it's not like I have problems denying if I can hump the edge of his tower range the whole time...
To me this sounds like
a) You weren't aggressive enough very early. For me I always thought I was, then I saw smash playing and realized I have fuck no idea at all what "aggressive" means in this matchup or for pantheon in general.
b) You control the creepflow badly.
How the lane should look like, ESPECIALLY for regrowth opening: You get in his face lvl 1. If he agrees to a trade the lane is already done cause he'll be below 50% while you're at 90%.
If he doesn't agree to trade, you just won lanecontrol. I usually aim to keep it pushed early to hit lvl 3 and 5 earlier than him. The levels where you get into his face heavily with spears are 1, 3, 5. Regrowth opening has no where near the needed sustain vs Dblade panth if even most cloth+5 openings struggle.
After the wave first hits his tower (lvl 3-4, depending on which side your on and what the enemy jungle most likely does you can start to either go back and buy and then zone him or start with it right there, most likely resulting in a kill.
Whenever I feel that I played Panth vs cloth+5 correctly he dies 2-3 times / is behind 2+ levels / is behind 50+ CS before he finishes wriggles. That's enough to keep shitting on him 24/7.
If the enemy jungle seems campy, hell, buy two wards each time. He can stay top and steal xp/push waves all day, I don't care. Not to mention you can tell your team that you're being camped but fine & tell your jungle that he can shit all over the rest of the map.
PS: Even though I find TP annoying because of the LOLIMBACKHI factor, that means there is no fucking way in hell that he can ever commit to a 1n1 while also being behind in levels/items. Force those all fucking day.
PPS: GPs W starts to heal for "350+" at level 9. You should have forced enough of an advantage WAY before that to keep raping him once he gets there.
PPPS:
-"I tried Panth vs GP" & "But I counterpicked pantheon vs GP because pantheon supposedly hardcounters GP" (aka I'm playing this matchup for the first time) into
-"panth just flat-out loses vs the hero hes supposed to hardcounter, funny how useless panth is" (aka lol panth always sucks and loses to GP) into
-"And yeah I wish I knew how to play it correctly if it's not correct when he cant melee a creep unless it's at his tower, constantly eats spears, and his jungler has to camp top and he still gets denied. Please share me your wisdom?" (aka im awesum at this game lol wtf don't talk me like I don't know how to play - which you obviously don't.)
-"Think Panth has absolutely no way of winning that lane ever and gets super hardcountered by philo gangplank." (aka retarded theorycraft originating from you originally having no idea whatsoever how to play the matchup since it was your first time and completely generalizing this experience on EVERYONE playing this matchup.)
...is arrogant, whiney and quite frankly producing an incredibly retarded chain of thoughts.
...sadly I didn't even realize all of this before I typed my answer above since you seem to be coming here to whine (nicely hidden btw) instead of asking for actual advice.
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On January 09 2012 12:01 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:22 Shikyo wrote:On January 09 2012 11:01 Shiv. wrote:On January 09 2012 10:40 Shikyo wrote:
i tried panth vs gang. "denied" him so that he couldnt lasthit with melee, even so. Wide open to jungle ganks. so with jungle help i couldnt deny him the whole time. Also. He just bought philo and other gp5 items and spammed parrrley and heal, he was healing over 300 hp with heal so it also meant my harrass was just a waste of mana.
Now in the midgame or so i have 120 creeps he has 71, I call this a clear victory for him although i denied him as hard as i had mana. So, I still think panth is bad vs gang, sad I believed you guys and tried this -.- You not being able to execute how to play that lane does not make it a bad matchup. Pantheon RAPES GP. Learn when to pull and push lanes, ward properly, then the jungle pressure becomes relatively obsolete for your team. (as in: your jungler can freeroam like he pleases to) You allowing him 71 CS when you have 120 (around 16-17 minutes) is a sign of not playing the lane correctly in my opinion. It's nowhere near his BEST matchup in my opinion, but there's no way you should let him stay in the game like that. Like, he has to max W in order to heal as hard as he did and how on earth does he parrley creeps without eating QWE, especially if he eats oranges on CD? Then, he was behind and got GP10. Do something. Tell your team you are WAY stronger right now and he's a nonfactor in teamfights. Push turrets like mad, what are they gonna do? Panth is by no means useless. What the fuck. I warded properly, as you perhaps understood from me never gotten ganked by the jungler, I just couldn't deny gang so he could freefarm when the jungler was around. Isn't that exactly what I said? Yeah, he maxed heal first with only lvl 1 parrrrley. And he did only eat Q, I couldn't QWE without being in range of his turret. 2 times I did QWE though but that's not mana efficient at all compared to just spear spam so I stopped doing that. And yeah I wish I knew how to play it correctly if it's not correct when he cant melee a creep unless it's at his tower, constantly eats spears, and his jungler has to camp top and he still gets denied. Please share me your wisdom? I can't just tank a 10 creep wave for 50 years to hold the wave in place as you probably would like me to, that would make me lose way too much hp, so it's necessary for the lane to push sometimes. Think Panth has absolutely no way of winning that lane ever and gets super hardcountered by philo gangplank. Oh okay so the way panth counters gangplank is by going to push other lanes and letting gangplank freefarm while defending the turret you're pushing with his ulti? That sounds like a great idea Gonna answer paragraph by paragraph. Tell your team to take advantage of when their jungler is camping top. Nothing stops them from doing dragon and pushing turrets while he is top. By level 9, he should either have died several times or lost a lot of XP because you zone him hardcore. He runs out of mana fast if he maxes W, so I don't see how QWE isn't mana efficient against him. You should be around level 11, that's a level 3/4 HSS. That shit hurts. You should also have a Brutalizer at that point, which means you can drop him in one combo as soon as he hits like 70%. You are aware you can towerdive like mad with Spear (first block) -> W (second block) -> Auto -> HSS cancel -> Auto -> Spear (3rd block) and an Ignite? How does he farm under turret with that pressure in mind, Q+maxed W run him oom ridiculously fast. I already said that, but if their jungler camps you, tell your team to take advantage of that. You make rest of the map a 4v3, which equals a win for your team. You can tank a 10 minion creep wave for stupid amounts of time. Get 2-3 pots and realize you constantly lifesteal off of crits. Philo is 820 gold, that's 30-40 CS. How does he get 40 in any reasonable amount of time, I mean, wat? You should at least double his CS and have double dorans and probably a long sword. How on earth is he supposed to deal with that? How can you not take advantage of that huge lead? And please don't tell me he started Regrowth, that'd just be the epitome of ridiculing yourself. And yeah, you can tell your jungler to hold top for you and push because you are supposed to be stronger than everyone on the map early on. Hell, even if you go 5v4, you can get a dragon and at least two towers out of that if you play it correctly. Also, I'd be really interested how on earth he would manage to get MULTIPLE GP10s and a Wriggle's before the game is basically decided. That's 3200ish gold. How does he get 3k+ gold laning against Panth? It sounds like you didn't manage your creeps correctly and don't know how to push your advantage over him and suffered from that. That's about it.
I understand there's TL fever surrounding pantheon but GP maxing w will be fine against panth. The whole basis of this panth hardcounter gp argument is that parley gets blocked. Max w GP won't be parleying you. He sits on GP10 and parleys minions for gold. You will have plenty more CS than him but he won't be feeding you, which IMO is a win for GP.
to address some of your points
w costs a constant 65 mana..
the beauty of GP top is that he can just sit in lane and ult to help the team, even if he maxes w first. he will still have presence on the map. How do you get dragons when your smiter is covering top for you while you 4v4 at drag when they have smite + gp ult? Your theorycrafting is a little too much for me, and if this is not theorycrafting then show me a ranked replay of this smiter covering top while you drag business
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Okay, here's what smash said about sustain. Sustain doesn't help you come out ahead in burst trades. You NEED to get in his face from level1.
You say he opened regrowth. Not even cloth+5. Pantheon should SHIT on him for the first 3 levels. Also about GP's sustain. W has a really long-ass CD. Its 22sec at lvl1. He has no way to come out ahead trades(especially with a lvl1 parleyyy), pantheon doesn't care about tower shots so basically GP has to recall constantly. TP has a pretty high CD too.
If he's starting regrowth, he should be crazy behind by the time he gets to his wriggles, and by that time you should have ur 2DB, bruta and boots2. Go put pressure everywhere else whenever you force him to recall.
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On January 09 2012 13:30 Saeglopur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 12:01 Shiv. wrote:On January 09 2012 11:22 Shikyo wrote:On January 09 2012 11:01 Shiv. wrote:On January 09 2012 10:40 Shikyo wrote:
i tried panth vs gang. "denied" him so that he couldnt lasthit with melee, even so. Wide open to jungle ganks. so with jungle help i couldnt deny him the whole time. Also. He just bought philo and other gp5 items and spammed parrrley and heal, he was healing over 300 hp with heal so it also meant my harrass was just a waste of mana.
Now in the midgame or so i have 120 creeps he has 71, I call this a clear victory for him although i denied him as hard as i had mana. So, I still think panth is bad vs gang, sad I believed you guys and tried this -.- You not being able to execute how to play that lane does not make it a bad matchup. Pantheon RAPES GP. Learn when to pull and push lanes, ward properly, then the jungle pressure becomes relatively obsolete for your team. (as in: your jungler can freeroam like he pleases to) You allowing him 71 CS when you have 120 (around 16-17 minutes) is a sign of not playing the lane correctly in my opinion. It's nowhere near his BEST matchup in my opinion, but there's no way you should let him stay in the game like that. Like, he has to max W in order to heal as hard as he did and how on earth does he parrley creeps without eating QWE, especially if he eats oranges on CD? Then, he was behind and got GP10. Do something. Tell your team you are WAY stronger right now and he's a nonfactor in teamfights. Push turrets like mad, what are they gonna do? Panth is by no means useless. What the fuck. I warded properly, as you perhaps understood from me never gotten ganked by the jungler, I just couldn't deny gang so he could freefarm when the jungler was around. Isn't that exactly what I said? Yeah, he maxed heal first with only lvl 1 parrrrley. And he did only eat Q, I couldn't QWE without being in range of his turret. 2 times I did QWE though but that's not mana efficient at all compared to just spear spam so I stopped doing that. And yeah I wish I knew how to play it correctly if it's not correct when he cant melee a creep unless it's at his tower, constantly eats spears, and his jungler has to camp top and he still gets denied. Please share me your wisdom? I can't just tank a 10 creep wave for 50 years to hold the wave in place as you probably would like me to, that would make me lose way too much hp, so it's necessary for the lane to push sometimes. Think Panth has absolutely no way of winning that lane ever and gets super hardcountered by philo gangplank. Oh okay so the way panth counters gangplank is by going to push other lanes and letting gangplank freefarm while defending the turret you're pushing with his ulti? That sounds like a great idea Gonna answer paragraph by paragraph. Tell your team to take advantage of when their jungler is camping top. Nothing stops them from doing dragon and pushing turrets while he is top. By level 9, he should either have died several times or lost a lot of XP because you zone him hardcore. He runs out of mana fast if he maxes W, so I don't see how QWE isn't mana efficient against him. You should be around level 11, that's a level 3/4 HSS. That shit hurts. You should also have a Brutalizer at that point, which means you can drop him in one combo as soon as he hits like 70%. You are aware you can towerdive like mad with Spear (first block) -> W (second block) -> Auto -> HSS cancel -> Auto -> Spear (3rd block) and an Ignite? How does he farm under turret with that pressure in mind, Q+maxed W run him oom ridiculously fast. I already said that, but if their jungler camps you, tell your team to take advantage of that. You make rest of the map a 4v3, which equals a win for your team. You can tank a 10 minion creep wave for stupid amounts of time. Get 2-3 pots and realize you constantly lifesteal off of crits. Philo is 820 gold, that's 30-40 CS. How does he get 40 in any reasonable amount of time, I mean, wat? You should at least double his CS and have double dorans and probably a long sword. How on earth is he supposed to deal with that? How can you not take advantage of that huge lead? And please don't tell me he started Regrowth, that'd just be the epitome of ridiculing yourself. And yeah, you can tell your jungler to hold top for you and push because you are supposed to be stronger than everyone on the map early on. Hell, even if you go 5v4, you can get a dragon and at least two towers out of that if you play it correctly. Also, I'd be really interested how on earth he would manage to get MULTIPLE GP10s and a Wriggle's before the game is basically decided. That's 3200ish gold. How does he get 3k+ gold laning against Panth? It sounds like you didn't manage your creeps correctly and don't know how to push your advantage over him and suffered from that. That's about it. I understand there's TL fever surrounding pantheon but GP maxing w will be fine against panth. The whole basis of this panth hardcounter gp argument is that parley gets blocked. Max w GP won't be parleying you. He sits on GP10 and parleys minions for gold. You will have plenty more CS than him but he won't be feeding you, which IMO is a win for GP. to address some of your points w costs a constant 65 mana.. the beauty of GP top is that he can just sit in lane and ult to help the team, even if he maxes w first. he will still have presence on the map. How do you get dragons when your smiter is covering top for you while you 4v4 at drag when they have smite + gp ult? Your theorycrafting is a little too much for me, and if this is not theorycrafting then show me a ranked replay of this smiter covering top while you drag business
Why the fuck would you be dragoning without the jungler there ? And he was talking about THEIR jungler camping YOU at top + being able to 5v4 where YOU are the 5 because GP should be trying to catch up on farm top giving you a clear advantage if you want to force a teamfight.
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"And yeah, you can tell your jungler to hold top for you and push because you are supposed to be stronger than everyone on the map early on. Hell, even if you go 5v4, you can get a dragon and at least two towers out of that if you play it correctly."
i was responding to this
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On January 09 2012 11:22 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:01 Shiv. wrote:On January 09 2012 10:40 Shikyo wrote:
i tried panth vs gang. "denied" him so that he couldnt lasthit with melee, even so. Wide open to jungle ganks. so with jungle help i couldnt deny him the whole time. Also. He just bought philo and other gp5 items and spammed parrrley and heal, he was healing over 300 hp with heal so it also meant my harrass was just a waste of mana.
Now in the midgame or so i have 120 creeps he has 71, I call this a clear victory for him although i denied him as hard as i had mana. So, I still think panth is bad vs gang, sad I believed you guys and tried this -.- You not being able to execute how to play that lane does not make it a bad matchup. Pantheon RAPES GP. Learn when to pull and push lanes, ward properly, then the jungle pressure becomes relatively obsolete for your team. (as in: your jungler can freeroam like he pleases to) You allowing him 71 CS when you have 120 (around 16-17 minutes) is a sign of not playing the lane correctly in my opinion. It's nowhere near his BEST matchup in my opinion, but there's no way you should let him stay in the game like that. Like, he has to max W in order to heal as hard as he did and how on earth does he parrley creeps without eating QWE, especially if he eats oranges on CD? Then, he was behind and got GP10. Do something. Tell your team you are WAY stronger right now and he's a nonfactor in teamfights. Push turrets like mad, what are they gonna do? Panth is by no means useless. What the fuck. I warded properly, as you perhaps understood from me never gotten ganked by the jungler, I just couldn't deny gang so he could freefarm when the jungler was around. Isn't that exactly what I said? Yeah, he maxed heal first with only lvl 1 parrrrley. And he did only eat Q, I couldn't QWE without being in range of his turret. 2 times I did QWE though but that's not mana efficient at all compared to just spear spam so I stopped doing that. And yeah I wish I knew how to play it correctly if it's not correct when he cant melee a creep unless it's at his tower, constantly eats spears, and his jungler has to camp top and he still gets denied. Please share me your wisdom? I can't just tank a 10 creep wave for 50 years to hold the wave in place as you probably would like me to, that would make me lose way too much hp, so it's necessary for the lane to push sometimes. Think Panth has absolutely no way of winning that lane ever and gets super hardcountered by philo gangplank. Oh okay so the way panth counters gangplank is by going to push other lanes and letting gangplank freefarm while defending the turret you're pushing with his ulti? That sounds like a great idea
I was like "this new poster in the forum sounds really bad at the game" and then I realized it was Shikyo. Shouldn't you know better than this? It's just about getting to level 2 first and immediately starting to zone him. Pray you're level 2 by the time their jungler comes to gank and try to either turn the gank into a kill, get a double kill, escape blowing w + flash or rest assured you're gonna beat them when you come back.
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On January 09 2012 14:59 Saeglopur wrote:
"And yeah, you can tell your jungler to hold top for you and push because you are supposed to be stronger than everyone on the map early on. Hell, even if you go 5v4, you can get a dragon and at least two towers out of that if you play it correctly."
i was responding to this
Why would you directly attempt dragon witht their jungler alive? I am talking about picking a fight, winning it because you are supposed to be ridiculously strong against a GP that opens Regrowth after a couple of minutes, then take objects out of that.
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GP starting Philo is just asking to get speared all day—he may not die, but he'll at least have to back, or is going to get zoned pretty hard.
Especially if you say QWE puts you into tower range, what I'd do in this case (I'm really far from other people here's level, but that's how I play until I harass people into OS zone) is just pull the wave, freeze it in your half of the lane if you can, and then zone the shit out of him because he won't be able to leave his tower.
And I don't even know how to pull properly, hell, I'd probably need to get told in details (I guess it has something to do with drawing aggro from your opponent's aa to make him push). I just take every chance I get whenever the enemy wave's bigger to let it come to my side, then more-or-less freeze it, and start zoning the enemy so he can't even push.
Also, against GP you've got quite an advantage if you're on blue side and your jungler starts blue since you can use it to build up your passive before you even show up in lane. Inb4 level 1 fight.
r.Evo wrote:
The levels where you get into his face heavily with spears are 1, 3, 5.
Do you mean you put a point into Q at level 3, and E at level 4? I tend to do the opposite to blow a QWE in my opponent's face as soon as I hit 3.
But then again, maybe I'm too insecure about early jungle ganks but I'd rather freeze the lane and zone/Q people all day, even tho that means I'll get a big wave to my tower if I get ganked early and die.
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On January 09 2012 18:42 Alaric wrote:
Do you mean you put a point into Q at level 3, and E at level 4? I tend to do the opposite to blow a QWE in my opponent's face as soon as I hit 3.
But then again, maybe I'm too insecure about early jungle ganks but I'd rather freeze the lane and zone/Q people all day, even tho that means I'll get a big wave to my tower if I get ganked early and die.
Yep. You want to harass with lvl 2 spears once you hit 3 so you have immediate killing potential at 4. It's the more mana efficient way to play it.
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Why are you arguing over pant vs gp when smash himself said he can just farm as gp against a pant.
On January 06 2012 05:04 Mogwai wrote:
It's funny, but even though I routinely CP GPs with Pantheon, I don't mind when I pick GP and the opponents pick Panth. Gear up dem Armor Quints, open cloth and just sit back and parley creeps. The thing that makes GP vs. Pantheon fine IMO is that oranges fuck up Pantheon's kill combos and GP's permaslow is basically an instant kill on Pantheon when you get a jungle gank vs. an aggressively positioned Pantheon.
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But Mogwai's actually smart and you see a lot of people not knowing how to build accordingly to opponent. D: I can see his point though, I'd take anybody running loads of armor would do at least kind of fine against Panth with a ranged farming tool or the survival skill to get early sustain.
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On January 09 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote:Why are you arguing over pant vs gp when smash himself said he can just farm as gp against a pant. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 05:04 Mogwai wrote:
It's funny, but even though I routinely CP GPs with Pantheon, I don't mind when I pick GP and the opponents pick Panth. Gear up dem Armor Quints, open cloth and just sit back and parley creeps. The thing that makes GP vs. Pantheon fine IMO is that oranges fuck up Pantheon's kill combos and GP's permaslow is basically an instant kill on Pantheon when you get a jungle gank vs. an aggressively positioned Pantheon.
he.opened.regrowth.
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On January 09 2012 19:20 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote:Why are you arguing over pant vs gp when smash himself said he can just farm as gp against a pant. On January 06 2012 05:04 Mogwai wrote:
It's funny, but even though I routinely CP GPs with Pantheon, I don't mind when I pick GP and the opponents pick Panth. Gear up dem Armor Quints, open cloth and just sit back and parley creeps. The thing that makes GP vs. Pantheon fine IMO is that oranges fuck up Pantheon's kill combos and GP's permaslow is basically an instant kill on Pantheon when you get a jungle gank vs. an aggressively positioned Pantheon. he.opened.regrowth.
Dunno how you'd be unable to rape a regrowth gp lol, even with fruits healing for 300 you should be so far ahead it shouldn't matter.
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On January 09 2012 19:29 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 19:20 Shiv. wrote:On January 09 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote:Why are you arguing over pant vs gp when smash himself said he can just farm as gp against a pant. On January 06 2012 05:04 Mogwai wrote:
It's funny, but even though I routinely CP GPs with Pantheon, I don't mind when I pick GP and the opponents pick Panth. Gear up dem Armor Quints, open cloth and just sit back and parley creeps. The thing that makes GP vs. Pantheon fine IMO is that oranges fuck up Pantheon's kill combos and GP's permaslow is basically an instant kill on Pantheon when you get a jungle gank vs. an aggressively positioned Pantheon. he.opened.regrowth. Dunno how you'd be unable to rape a regrowth gp lol, even with fruits healing for 300 you should be so far ahead it shouldn't matter.
That was my point. I highly doubt he had Armor Quints, too.
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On January 09 2012 19:36 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 19:29 JackDino wrote:On January 09 2012 19:20 Shiv. wrote:On January 09 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote:Why are you arguing over pant vs gp when smash himself said he can just farm as gp against a pant. On January 06 2012 05:04 Mogwai wrote:
It's funny, but even though I routinely CP GPs with Pantheon, I don't mind when I pick GP and the opponents pick Panth. Gear up dem Armor Quints, open cloth and just sit back and parley creeps. The thing that makes GP vs. Pantheon fine IMO is that oranges fuck up Pantheon's kill combos and GP's permaslow is basically an instant kill on Pantheon when you get a jungle gank vs. an aggressively positioned Pantheon. he.opened.regrowth. Dunno how you'd be unable to rape a regrowth gp lol, even with fruits healing for 300 you should be so far ahead it shouldn't matter. That was my point. I highly doubt he had Armor Quints, too.
GP with armour quints(I actually use armour seals/quints on gp regardless of matchup, unless I'm against a mage) and cloth5 should be able to farm vs pant, especially with teleport but I don't see how he would even get a philo if he opens regrowth.
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On January 08 2012 19:52 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Also what do you do against Renektons that open cloth 5? I was winning the lane against my friend today in a tournament but he was pretty hard to play against. I think there's timings I need to watch out for with my aegis procs that I'm unaware of atm.
meh, renek never struck me as a problem. spears in the face constantly, run away when he tries to ult and kill you.
On January 09 2012 02:28 r.Evo wrote:
Since someone just mentioned it... how much sense does Aegis+Nega or Chain make instead of GA once BT+mercs are done?
uhh, depends how you're going to be playing teamfights. I can see Aegis being fine on Pantheon if you're babysitting your ranged carry and helping him zone in teamfights with HSS, but in cases like this, LW is a higher priority so that your HSS does meaningful damage to tanks. If you're doing standard, GO-BALLS-DEEP-FOR-THE-OPPOSING-RANGED-AD, Pantheon strategy, aegis is a pretty mediocre pick. GA or Mallet should be your defensive item if you're doing that. for whatever it's worth though, babysitting is how I like to play lategame with Pantheon, so I do build aegis from time to time.
On January 09 2012 04:28 Ryuu314 wrote:
How do you play against a Sion as Pantheon? At early levels you can burst his shield easily with 1 spear 1 auto, but as he gets more levels, it's gets harder to bust it. Also, the guy I was playing was holding on to his stun until his shield went down, so if I tried to jump him after his shield popped to do damage, he'd just stun me and run. I have to check, but I think he was maxing his stun/leveling shield/stun evenly so taking the stun damage+minion aggro was pretty painful.
Loci and I used to think this was Pantheon's worst matchup. It sucks really hard after a little while, but early it's ezpz. I think one of the keys to not sucking ass in the matchup is to save your W until after he stuns you so that you can re-engage when he puts his shit on CD, as that's the only time you can do meaningful damage to a Sion.
On January 09 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote:Why are you arguing over pant vs gp when smash himself said he can just farm as gp against a pant. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 05:04 Mogwai wrote:
It's funny, but even though I routinely CP GPs with Pantheon, I don't mind when I pick GP and the opponents pick Panth. Gear up dem Armor Quints, open cloth and just sit back and parley creeps. The thing that makes GP vs. Pantheon fine IMO is that oranges fuck up Pantheon's kill combos and GP's permaslow is basically an instant kill on Pantheon when you get a jungle gank vs. an aggressively positioned Pantheon.
meh, Shikyo's mostly whining, so I'd suggest mostly ignoring him. he considers up 50 CS and a kill advantage not a successful Pantheon game, so there's really nothing to talk to him about with regards to that. I swear, no one knows how the fuck to play Pantheon later in the game, everyone just thinks they're fucking akali 2.0 and dives the whole opposing team onto the opposing carry, no one knows how to use HSS zoning to protect a carry.
interestingly though, I was talking to Neo a few days ago and he was talking about how most GPs consider W a 1-point wonder, which was really surprising to me because even if I'm aggressively dominating a lane with GP, I still max W after Q. GP's W scaling is retarded, with +70 heal, -1 CD, and no change to the mana per level. Whenever I'm having trouble on a lane with GP, I just max W and spam it and NPNP. Now, this doesn't really work if you open regrowth vs. Pantheon, but Armor Quints + Seals building cloth -> wriggle's + ninja tabi -> double gold/10 lets me routinely get my farm as GP vs. Pantheon.
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EPT
