|
On January 10 2012 01:38 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 19:52 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Also what do you do against Renektons that open cloth 5? I was winning the lane against my friend today in a tournament but he was pretty hard to play against. I think there's timings I need to watch out for with my aegis procs that I'm unaware of atm. meh, renek never struck me as a problem. spears in the face constantly, run away when he tries to ult and kill you. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 02:28 r.Evo wrote:
Since someone just mentioned it... how much sense does Aegis+Nega or Chain make instead of GA once BT+mercs are done? uhh, depends how you're going to be playing teamfights. I can see Aegis being fine on Pantheon if you're babysitting your ranged carry and helping him zone in teamfights with HSS, but in cases like this, LW is a higher priority so that your HSS does meaningful damage to tanks. If you're doing standard, GO-BALLS-DEEP-FOR-THE-OPPOSING-RANGED-AD, Pantheon strategy, aegis is a pretty mediocre pick. GA or Mallet should be your defensive item if you're doing that. for whatever it's worth though, babysitting is how I like to play lategame with Pantheon, so I do build aegis from time to time. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 04:28 Ryuu314 wrote:
How do you play against a Sion as Pantheon? At early levels you can burst his shield easily with 1 spear 1 auto, but as he gets more levels, it's gets harder to bust it. Also, the guy I was playing was holding on to his stun until his shield went down, so if I tried to jump him after his shield popped to do damage, he'd just stun me and run. I have to check, but I think he was maxing his stun/leveling shield/stun evenly so taking the stun damage+minion aggro was pretty painful. Loci and I used to think this was Pantheon's worst matchup. It sucks really hard after a little while, but early it's ezpz. I think one of the keys to not sucking ass in the matchup is to save your W until after he stuns you so that you can re-engage when he puts his shit on CD, as that's the only time you can do meaningful damage to a Sion. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 19:10 JackDino wrote:Why are you arguing over pant vs gp when smash himself said he can just farm as gp against a pant. On January 06 2012 05:04 Mogwai wrote:
It's funny, but even though I routinely CP GPs with Pantheon, I don't mind when I pick GP and the opponents pick Panth. Gear up dem Armor Quints, open cloth and just sit back and parley creeps. The thing that makes GP vs. Pantheon fine IMO is that oranges fuck up Pantheon's kill combos and GP's permaslow is basically an instant kill on Pantheon when you get a jungle gank vs. an aggressively positioned Pantheon. meh, Shikyo's mostly whining, so I'd suggest mostly ignoring him. he considers up 50 CS and a kill advantage not a successful Pantheon game, so there's really nothing to talk to him about with regards to that. I swear, no one knows how the fuck to play Pantheon later in the game, everyone just thinks they're fucking akali 2.0 and dives the whole opposing team onto the opposing carry, no one knows how to use HSS zoning to protect a carry. interestingly though, I was talking to Neo a few days ago and he was talking about how most GPs consider W a 1-point wonder, which was really surprising to me because even if I'm aggressively dominating a lane with GP, I still max W after Q. GP's W scaling is retarded, with +70 heal, -1 CD, and no change to the mana per level. Whenever I'm having trouble on a lane with GP, I just max W and spam it and NPNP. Now, this doesn't really work if you open regrowth vs. Pantheon, but Armor Quints + Seals building cloth -> wriggle's + ninja tabi -> double gold/10 lets me routinely get my farm as GP vs. Pantheon.
Thanks for the insight, as always really appreciated.
|
While the guide focuses on an "AD caster" style of straight damage and more damage, at what point do you consider tanky dps items like Atmog's or Fromallet? Or is it like Riven, where it's better just to ignore your defense and try to hit harder? Not that Pants has a scaling AD shield, but a similar concept.
Basically, is there any point in a game where you think "man, I'm behind, and just GA isn't going to cover it"?
|
On January 10 2012 06:40 Requizen wrote:
While the guide focuses on an "AD caster" style of straight damage and more damage, at what point do you consider tanky dps items like Atmog's or Fromallet? Or is it like Riven, where it's better just to ignore your defense and try to hit harder? Not that Pants has a scaling AD shield, but a similar concept.
Basically, is there any point in a game where you think "man, I'm behind, and just GA isn't going to cover it"?
mmm, not really. Pantheon is so forgettable as a Tanky DPS that if you find yourself making that sort of concession in your build, you're probably screwed anyway. if I'm behind, faster Last Whisper -> Aegis -> BT and just camp the back of teamfights and try to zone off your ranged DPS with HSS.
|
On January 10 2012 06:47 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 06:40 Requizen wrote:
While the guide focuses on an "AD caster" style of straight damage and more damage, at what point do you consider tanky dps items like Atmog's or Fromallet? Or is it like Riven, where it's better just to ignore your defense and try to hit harder? Not that Pants has a scaling AD shield, but a similar concept.
Basically, is there any point in a game where you think "man, I'm behind, and just GA isn't going to cover it"? mmm, not really. Pantheon is so forgettable as a Tanky DPS that if you find yourself making that sort of concession in your build, you're probably screwed anyway. if I'm behind, faster Last Whisper -> Aegis -> BT and just camp the back of teamfights and try to zone off your ranged DPS with HSS.
So is that kind of your late-game plan? Play him not so much as a dps anymore, but as a peeler and clean-up killer? Seems pretty right to me, though I imagine he's still pretty strong 1v1 later on.
|
he's strong 1v1 later on, but I think the biggest buff Pantheon's gotten over the past year was the HSS CD reduction. With HSS at it's current CD, you can throw out HSS every 4-5 seconds in areas where the opposing team is trying to be in order to murder your other high priority targets. I mean, he's still DPS, it's not like he peels via CC very well, it's just about positioning yourself in the places where you'll be able to utilize his strongest teamfighting DPS (HSS) effectively without blowing up.
|
I find that the moment where I start to fall off isn't when people survive my burst (since cds are low anyway and he trades like a boss), but when they've built enough damage to start bursting me. Panth has a sick damage output (2 charged BT+LW = ~1300 damage HSS at level 18) but there's a moment where you'll stop doing one-shots, and then your squishy nature makes it so any burster/dps-er able to survive it even with 200 hp will just burst you before you can finish them off.
That's when I switch to defensive/split push mode, personnally (but I'm still a noob because it takes me a death to realize they've passed the threshold  ).
|
Sometimes when I'm doing fine I feel after BT+bruta I'm doing enough damage to fuck up their squishies, I just build atma+negatron to not blow up afterwards. If the game goes even longer I may pick up mallet later. I just hate being squishy. Basically this is situations where ur damage is already fine. If you're in a situation where u feel you don't have enough damage to blow their squishies, you're screwed as pantheon anyways no matter what you do.
But I've never gone negative in KDA since I picked pantheon last week because even though I'm terrible, other people are even worse.
Also ignite exhaust panth best panth, lvl1 always kill never not kill.
|
lol smash doin work on this thread. great insight as always on panth.
|
United States37500 Posts
After watching Smash go Panth for about a week, I would say the biggest difference between him and other (average) Panth is how he utilizes HSS in lane for harass and in team fights as a zoning mechanism for his carries. It's ridiculous how much damage Smash can output.
Panth is not all about QWEQ combo. That's like the most basic tactic Panth has.
|
Man I was reading up on the Panth v Morde matchup and like the person who originally had that problem, I'm a baddie who doesn't see how you win when Morde comes to lane with cloth+5.
Sure you can spear him when his shield is down but as soon as he gets W his shield is never down. You can't harass with only shield so obviously you get a few autoattacks in here and there, but then you draw minion aggro from tons of minions. Your last hitting suffers from not being able to stand in the creeps due to fear of E harass and the minion wave builds up, further making harass difficult for fear of eating a billion minion autoattacks.
Ugh.
In theory I get how it's supposed to work from reading what you guys wrote, but I can't see it. Is Dblade start the answer with just insane level 1 harass to throw him off of stuff right away or you're screwed...? I really have to practice this...
|
Aren't Morde's first few levels ridiculous in terms of healt-cost-to-shield-generation if he tries to use his spells to fend you off anyway? I only played him on free weeks and not since his recent buffs/nerfs, but level 1 harass seemed pretty annoying to him I recall.
Also, time zones not letting me watch Smash.  My thoughts were that lane phase generally doesn't last long after the point where your AD's good enough that HSS outdamages Spearshot, so Q harass always better. But Q's unavoidable if they go for the last hit so they might as hell eat it, while they can avoid HSS if they back off. Is there some kind of psychological twist like that in HSS harass, or am I just reading too much into things?
|
On January 10 2012 18:27 Alaric wrote:Also, time zones not letting me watch Smash. My thoughts were that lane phase generally doesn't last long after the point where your AD's good enough that HSS outdamages Spearshot, so Q harass always better. But Q's unavoidable if they go the last hit so they might as hell eat it, while they can avoid HSS if they back off. Is there some kind of psychological twist like that in HSS harass, or am I just reading too much into things?
I run MRegen/lvl blues and 7 in Utility. With this setup, it's practically impossible to run OOM from level 5/6 onwards. That being said, there will be times where your Q is on CD, you autoattacked them after they walked up for a last hit and you HSS onto them, simply because you can. It's sort of hard to explain how Smash does it and I'm still trying to figure out what exactly it is that he does so much better, but as Neo said, there's something about his use of HSS that puts him on a whole nother level than other Panths. I'd suggest to check out the VoD he provided and browse his channel a little more, there's a couple of Panth games.
|
On January 10 2012 15:39 NeoIllusions wrote:
After watching Smash go Panth for about a week, I would say the biggest difference between him and other (average) Panth is how he utilizes HSS in lane for harass and in team fights as a zoning mechanism for his carries. It's ridiculous how much damage Smash can output.
Panth is not all about QWEQ combo. That's like the most basic tactic Panth has.
I have fuck no idea at all how this should look like properly. I want to know about it. For the games I play panth I'm basicly forcing a 4n5 for 10-15minutes and the game has to be won at that point. Using W as a repositioning skill instead of a gapcloser in teamfights already has helped me there a LOT, but I'm pretty damn sure there must be way more potential.
Since I keep missing your streams smash... VOD pretty please? :>
Edit: Just rewatched the vod vs tryn... is your plan more to stick close to the ad/ap carry, HSS their frontline, wait for an opening -> dive / force their carry out? When is which your priority?
Like, sometimes you try to flank their carries but then decide to W on their frontline and HSS them. I think I'm just not getting your decision making in teamfights. =/
|
On January 10 2012 19:41 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 15:39 NeoIllusions wrote:
After watching Smash go Panth for about a week, I would say the biggest difference between him and other (average) Panth is how he utilizes HSS in lane for harass and in team fights as a zoning mechanism for his carries. It's ridiculous how much damage Smash can output.
Panth is not all about QWEQ combo. That's like the most basic tactic Panth has. I have fuck no idea at all how this should look like properly. I want to know about it. For the games I play panth I'm basicly forcing a 4n5 for 10-15minutes and the game has to be won at that point. Using W as a repositioning skill instead of a gapcloser in teamfights already has helped me there a LOT, but I'm pretty damn sure there must be way more potential. Since I keep missing your streams smash... VOD pretty please? :>
While I can't comment on his teamfight strategy as I don't entirely grasp that myself, I'd suggest you check out this video of him playing against Riven. Actually, 2 Rivens. While those might not be perfect games, I think they show some brilliant use of HSS in order to abuse Riven's (mis)positioning in lane. I spent my last night browsing through his channel (fuck exams huehue) and it really helped me improve my laning phase a lot.
|
On January 10 2012 15:39 NeoIllusions wrote:
After watching Smash go Panth for about a week, I would say the biggest difference between him and other (average) Panth is how he utilizes HSS in lane for harass and in team fights as a zoning mechanism for his carries. It's ridiculous how much damage Smash can output.
Panth is not all about QWEQ combo. That's like the most basic tactic Panth has.
Are they VODs on that ? Damn americans, streaming only when I sleep :'(
Nevermind found all of it. Btw I see so many fail Panth today... Free week is sad :/
|
Free week is good. Nobody'll even think about buying him if they fail! \o/
|
On January 11 2012 00:26 Alaric wrote:
Free week is good. Nobody'll even think about buying him if they fail! \o/
Indeed. I smashed four pantheons who went chalice->zerkers. Bless riot and their retarded recommended items.
|
I'm planning on playing a lot less this week, as I'm on tilt due to a string of bad luck and just generally hating the direction that the new jungle took the game.
|
On January 10 2012 18:12 WaveofShadow wrote:
Man I was reading up on the Panth v Morde matchup and like the person who originally had that problem, I'm a baddie who doesn't see how you win when Morde comes to lane with cloth+5.
Sure you can spear him when his shield is down but as soon as he gets W his shield is never down. You can't harass with only shield so obviously you get a few autoattacks in here and there, but then you draw minion aggro from tons of minions. Your last hitting suffers from not being able to stand in the creeps due to fear of E harass and the minion wave builds up, further making harass difficult for fear of eating a billion minion autoattacks.
Ugh.
In theory I get how it's supposed to work from reading what you guys wrote, but I can't see it. Is Dblade start the answer with just insane level 1 harass to throw him off of stuff right away or you're screwed...? I really have to practice this...
You got it right pretty much. For Morde's first few lvls, I'd say lvls 1~4 his skills costs are really high while shield generation is quite low. In those levels, you absolutely need to get a good commanding leading and try force him back at least once. Once Morde hits lvl 5 with 3 levels in one skill, he can start to trade pretty well if you don't have an exp/item lead on him.
|
alright, so after taking a close look at my recent games, don't play Pantheon top lane anymore unless your jungler is someone you trust. junglers just lane camp, Panthoen's an easy target for lane camping. The only way to win with Pantheon now is if your jungler is prepared to early countergank the inevitable early gank.
re: Morde, assuming you're not about to get jumped by a level 2 udyr who just stole your red buff, you need to make sure Morde has to fight you before he gets anywhere near the creep wave to charge his shield. sadly, you are always about to get jumped by a level udyr who just stole your red buff, so you should've just picked a laner who can sit on his tower and then just come forward to 1-shot creepwaves and then dominate late game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
