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On December 22 2011 04:10 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 20:19 deskscaress wrote:On December 21 2011 09:33 overt wrote:
In my experience Annie rapes Kennen in lane. Like, it's not even close. Kennen can't get close to her or she 100->0s him. no offense but i don't think you understand the lane matchup very well if you're viewing it as such kennen can't get close is such a wrong mentality... kennen doesn't need to get close. kennen can poke from 29000 range with his Q every 0.01 seconds for no mana cost. kennen v annie matchups aren't about running at each other full speed and seeing who does more damage. they're about kennen flinging his Q in her general direction every time it's off cooldown. yeah, she's gonna hide in creeps a lot, and yeah he's gonna miss a lot of Qs. but he's not restrained by mana or range, both of which are restrictions on annie. as soon as she makes a mistake, kennen can get a couple Qs on her or a Q and a charged W auto and then what can annie do? now she can't risk engaging so she has to back... while kennen regens HP with no mana costs and keeps farming. if annie engages at this point she'll lose for sure basically i just think you're seeing the lane wrong. kennen doesn't *want* to engage annie head to head from full health, that's not how you play kennen. he abuses superior range, cooldowns, and costs to wear her down, and as soon as he can engage, he wins. carnivorous sheep is also correct, simply building one of the many defensive items that are core on kennen (giant's belt for rylai's, wota, null mantle for mercs, negatron for abyssal) will put him further ahead in the matchup than an AP item by annie, AND not slow down his build or final goal. carnivorous sheep is ALSO correct in that regarding equal gank attempts from both junglers, kennen will likely edge out annie pre-6 and post-6. annie's got 0 escapes, kennen's got his OP E. this all sounds reasonable except for hitting her with the Q. If she is good I think you are literally never going to hit her with the Q unless you dive onto her.
if she is good is another massive mis-speak imo. at 500 elo, neither player is good, and obviously neither player has an advantage. at 1800 elo both players are good, and kennen definitely has the advantage. if the kennen is better than the annie, the kennen will win every time. if the annie is better than the kennen, kennen can still *not die* and just farm.
the lane is just in favor of kennen just based on the dynamics of both champs. if kennen wants to play safe he will never die. annie MUST be the aggressive against kennen to get kills, and in doing so she opens herself to Q harass. no player, no matter how good they are, can dodge every Q. regardless of how safe they play.
also eventually after enough passivity, annie will use her Q to keep farming, giving up her stun. kennen has a pretty safe window to be aggressive here. he'll eat counterharass but not a stun -> combo. and in a trade post-revolver, kennen will come out ahead even if he does less damage (on account of annie will be OOM and kennen can just regen his health back)
the lane is kennen's to lose, not annie's to win, if that makes any sense
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On December 22 2011 05:52 deskscaress wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 04:10 travis wrote:On December 21 2011 20:19 deskscaress wrote:On December 21 2011 09:33 overt wrote:
In my experience Annie rapes Kennen in lane. Like, it's not even close. Kennen can't get close to her or she 100->0s him. no offense but i don't think you understand the lane matchup very well if you're viewing it as such kennen can't get close is such a wrong mentality... kennen doesn't need to get close. kennen can poke from 29000 range with his Q every 0.01 seconds for no mana cost. kennen v annie matchups aren't about running at each other full speed and seeing who does more damage. they're about kennen flinging his Q in her general direction every time it's off cooldown. yeah, she's gonna hide in creeps a lot, and yeah he's gonna miss a lot of Qs. but he's not restrained by mana or range, both of which are restrictions on annie. as soon as she makes a mistake, kennen can get a couple Qs on her or a Q and a charged W auto and then what can annie do? now she can't risk engaging so she has to back... while kennen regens HP with no mana costs and keeps farming. if annie engages at this point she'll lose for sure basically i just think you're seeing the lane wrong. kennen doesn't *want* to engage annie head to head from full health, that's not how you play kennen. he abuses superior range, cooldowns, and costs to wear her down, and as soon as he can engage, he wins. carnivorous sheep is also correct, simply building one of the many defensive items that are core on kennen (giant's belt for rylai's, wota, null mantle for mercs, negatron for abyssal) will put him further ahead in the matchup than an AP item by annie, AND not slow down his build or final goal. carnivorous sheep is ALSO correct in that regarding equal gank attempts from both junglers, kennen will likely edge out annie pre-6 and post-6. annie's got 0 escapes, kennen's got his OP E. this all sounds reasonable except for hitting her with the Q. If she is good I think you are literally never going to hit her with the Q unless you dive onto her. if she is good is another massive mis-speak imo. at 500 elo, neither player is good, and obviously neither player has an advantage. at 1800 elo both players are good, and kennen definitely has the advantage. if the kennen is better than the annie, the kennen will win every time. if the annie is better than the kennen, kennen can still *not die* and just farm. the lane is just in favor of kennen just based on the dynamics of both champs. if kennen wants to play safe he will never die. annie MUST be the aggressive against kennen to get kills, and in doing so she opens herself to Q harass. no player, no matter how good they are, can dodge every Q. regardless of how safe they play. also eventually after enough passivity, annie will use her Q to keep farming, giving up her stun. kennen has a pretty safe window to be aggressive here. he'll eat counterharass but not a stun -> combo. and in a trade post-revolver, kennen will come out ahead even if he does less damage (on account of annie will be OOM and kennen can just regen his health back) the lane is kennen's to lose, not annie's to win, if that makes any sense
I think you argument is silly here. If Kennen wants to play safe he will never die.... doesn't that apply to nearly every champion? Ward placement and careful positioning should make it virtually impossible to be ganked without extreme coordination of efforts. Your statement that she HAS to be aggressive to get kills I would say is accurate, but why does Annie NEED to get kills? She can sit around and farm mid if she wants to, not like lategame Annie isn't strong, all of her ratios are really good.
Your argument is also shifting the margin of error to Annie, instead of equally. Maybe Annie wont dodge ever Q, but maybe kennen will eat a q/w combo or two when he tries to last hit and isn't topped off. I think the hardest part for the matchup is that Kennen NEEDS to be topped off or close to it until he can get more mr or that giant's belt. Kennen can obviously pump out plenty of damage himself, but that requires getting in close to do so, which means Mr. Tibbers will be able to smack him around for a bit as well. Also, while it seems negligible, that stun duration does matter.
I want to stress this again... I don't think Annie counters Kennen. The more I think about it, the only champ who I think might actually counter Kennen is Morgana (note: I still think Xerath might, but having only done the matchup a couple of times I'm just not sure... and maybe Veigar because it should become a game of pure farm, and that only makes Veigar that much better lategame) I'll exclude Kass/LB because that's just how they roll.
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Baa?21248 Posts
OK now I know you don't know what you're talking about since both Veigar and Kassadin get demolished by Kennen. Veigar less so with buffs but it's still a very bad lane for him.
I don't know how much you actually play mid matchups but as someone who plays them almost every single game, extreme amounts of personal experience tells me what I've said is true, and logically thinking about it yields good reasons on why, whereas all you've come up with are completely unrealistic scenarios that tells me you're either playing bad Kennens/playing as a bad Kennen or you don't actually play mid enough :| You're just coming up with a lot of possible but unrealistic theoreticals to support your point.
Also Malzahar does pretty well against Kennen.
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dunno about vs annie... but Kassadin is so easy as kennen. Just level up W before Q and auto atk him each time he tries to last hit ;p he'll be painful xD
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On December 22 2011 08:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
OK now I know you don't know what you're talking about since both Veigar and Kassadin get demolished by Kennen. Veigar less so with buffs but it's still a very bad lane for him.
I don't know how much you actually play mid matchups but as someone who plays them almost every single game, extreme amounts of personal experience tells me what I've said is true, and logically thinking about it yields good reasons on why, whereas all you've come up with are completely unrealistic scenarios that tells me you're either playing bad Kennens/playing as a bad Kennen or you don't actually play mid enough :| You're just coming up with a lot of possible but unrealistic theoreticals to support your point.
Also Malzahar does pretty well against Kennen.
Agreed.
As a person who mains Kennen, Malzahar is the only champ that has raped me over and over again. Unless he is bad....
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On December 22 2011 08:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
OK now I know you don't know what you're talking about since both Veigar and Kassadin get demolished by Kennen. Veigar less so with buffs but it's still a very bad lane for him.
I don't know how much you actually play mid matchups but as someone who plays them almost every single game, extreme amounts of personal experience tells me what I've said is true, and logically thinking about it yields good reasons on why, whereas all you've come up with are completely unrealistic scenarios that tells me you're either playing bad Kennens/playing as a bad Kennen or you don't actually play mid enough :| You're just coming up with a lot of possible but unrealistic theoreticals to support your point.
Also Malzahar does pretty well against Kennen.
I don't think I've posted a single hypothetical that is even remotely rare. All I've said is that Annie can q/w combo a kennen if he gets aggressive at all and Kennen has to be topped off for fear of a full Annie combo. However, once he acquires enough mr or a giants belt then things change, obviously. All Annie has to do is avoid Q's (not that hard) and make sure not to eat too many auto'd W's to easily keep lane presence. I don't understand how either of those 2 things are difficult to really do for Kennen to magically have some advantage against Annie.
You are correct about Kassadin. I mostly threw that out there simply saying that Kass/LB are still mage assassins who can easily collect a kill if you're not careful. Obviously for Kennen, his ability to range farm against Kassadin largely negates the damage and thus he can farm all day without fear of the Kass + his obvious stun abilities + escape are easy enough to use to punish the Kass as well. But for those reasons I didn't say they were actually a counter to Kennen, although I didn't make it particularly clear in my wording I suppose.
Veigar does fine in lane against Kenn for the reasons listed except he can farm and can always keep his stun on CD, unlike Annie. I haden't thought about Malz since I see him so rarely now, but I'd definitely agree he can do well in the matchup.
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On December 22 2011 09:25 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 08:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
OK now I know you don't know what you're talking about since both Veigar and Kassadin get demolished by Kennen. Veigar less so with buffs but it's still a very bad lane for him.
I don't know how much you actually play mid matchups but as someone who plays them almost every single game, extreme amounts of personal experience tells me what I've said is true, and logically thinking about it yields good reasons on why, whereas all you've come up with are completely unrealistic scenarios that tells me you're either playing bad Kennens/playing as a bad Kennen or you don't actually play mid enough :| You're just coming up with a lot of possible but unrealistic theoreticals to support your point.
Also Malzahar does pretty well against Kennen. I don't think I've posted a single hypothetical that is even remotely rare. All I've said is that Annie can q/w combo a kennen if he gets aggressive at all and Kennen has to be topped off for fear of a full Annie combo. However, once he acquires enough mr or a giants belt then things change, obviously. All Annie has to do is avoid Q's (not that hard) and make sure not to eat too many auto'd W's to easily keep lane presence. I don't understand how either of those 2 things are difficult to really do for Kennen to magically have some advantage against Annie. Veigar does fine in lane against Kenn for the reasons listed except he can farm and can always keep his stun on CD, unlike Annie.
Annie has to charge her stun; Kennen's Q outranges Annie's AA and Q, so Kennen can harass with Q. If Annie loses her stun, in the time it takes for her to build it up, Kennen can completely zone Annie. Avoiding Q's is hard against a competent Kennen if you want to maintain good farm. When Kennen can eat a QW combo and heal it back up after revolver, he can just go ahead, eat it, and again zone Annie while she charges her stun.
Veigar completely gets decimated by Kennen. like, there is no debate on this point I don't ven know what to say if you don't believe me. But his stun CD point -> his stun is 20s CD at level 1. That alone tells you something. Serious question, how often have you actually played Kennen vs. Veigar from either side? Like even 2-3 games should be enough to get you to believe me zz.
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I've also been having a hard time with Kennen against Brand mid, any tips? Thanks!
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Baa?21248 Posts
Buy boots, dodge skillshots, farm with Q, harass if he gets too aggressive, kill him if he's low. Pretty standard play vs. Brand. His E range nerf really hurt him, and Kennen has MS boost from E so you really shouldn't be getting hit by too many of his spells.
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you can also consider getting some cheap magic resist so his Ｗ hurt less even if you fail to dodge it.
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On December 22 2011 10:00 alokin wrote:
I've also been having a hard time with Kennen against Brand mid, any tips? Thanks!
stop trying to kill him.
throw Q to last hit
Kennen is generally bad against ppl who has rly long range and can hit kennen from behind creeps and can f you up if you try to rush him. I think against those ppl you should just be defensive.
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would it be worth it putting some points in magic res for masteries at all?
oh and also a question with kennen and masteries... considering he doesn't use mana i assume that the mana regen slot does not reflect his energy regen? cause right now i'm using 11/0/19
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On December 22 2011 14:50 alokin wrote:
would it be worth it putting some points in magic res for masteries at all?
oh and also a question with kennen and masteries... considering he doesn't use mana i assume that the mana regen slot does not reflect his energy regen? cause right now i'm using 11/0/19
i run very defensive mastery. 0 21 9
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Kennen's a douche to play against as Annie for me too 
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On December 22 2011 15:31 evanthebouncy! wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 14:50 alokin wrote:
would it be worth it putting some points in magic res for masteries at all?
oh and also a question with kennen and masteries... considering he doesn't use mana i assume that the mana regen slot does not reflect his energy regen? cause right now i'm using 11/0/19 i run very defensive mastery. 0 21 9
0-22-8, full MR runes. Laugh >: D
Alternatively 21-0-9 or 21-9-0. Depends on the lane.
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On December 22 2011 08:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
OK now I know you don't know what you're talking about since both Veigar and Kassadin get demolished by Kennen. Veigar less so with buffs but it's still a very bad lane for him.
Out of curiosity, are we talking pre-700 -> 650 range nerf kass or post? Because post nerf, I agree, but IMO, kass lanes ok vs. kennen before that nerf.
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On December 22 2011 16:15 Nehsb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 08:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
OK now I know you don't know what you're talking about since both Veigar and Kassadin get demolished by Kennen. Veigar less so with buffs but it's still a very bad lane for him. Out of curiosity, are we talking pre-700 -> 650 range nerf kass or post? Because post nerf, I agree, but IMO, kass lanes ok vs. kennen before that nerf.
That nerf was not that impactful on the lane, Kennen had that lane on lockdown both pre and post nerf. More so post nerf ofc, but yeah...
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Just watched Saintvicious play Kennen solo top against a Akali I think it was, lol was pretty epic
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Any opinions on AD kennen?
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It's worse than AP kennen.
Ive been stomping ranked while I can...I feel like he is going to get nerfed somehow but I have no idea.
He can go mid or top and dominate.
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EPT
