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Kennen the Heart of the Tempest
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jwTL2.jpg)
Introduction
Kennen is an AP semicarry with extreme utility. He excels in 1v1 and small fights while still providing great utility (the ability to stun a whole team over and over) in large teamfights. He has an extremely strong early and mid game, tapers off a bit late game due to poor scaling (and other reasons). Overall if you enjoy playing an annoying break-dancing cunning disruptive electric ferret, Kennen is the champion for you.
Strengths:
- Excels in small fights being able to stun multiple targets multiple times within a short period of time
- Skillset allows for a mixed AoE teamfight style as well as a kiting playstyle. This allows him to fit seamlessly into different team comps
- Great mobility making him difficult to gank (also allows him to perform ganks and counterganks much quicker)
Weaknesses:
- Scaling not as good as some of the other AP carries
- Damage is not front loaded (not a huge “burst” champ) however energy pool doesn't allow constant spamming for consistent DPS lategame (you can offset this by buying Energy Regen/18 seals and having blue, but Blue is better saved for mana intensive AP carries). Also because of the energy system, it's not great to spec for CDR since you won't have the energy to spam spells.
- Must get within melee range for his ult to be effective. Ult is also random and might not always hit the target you want it to hit in a large fight
I think Kennen is an underused champ who can perform very well in most team comps. Kennen really fell out of favor after the Zhonya breakup. While most AP carries got stronger because of the Deathcap, Kennen got weaker because his primary item was split into two. He essentially needed 2-3 of his “core” big items to become the force he used to be with just one item (this meant he hit his stride later in the game, but of course he doesn't scale as well as the game goes on). On top of that, solo lane matchups switched from ranged AD carries to sustain tank dps/AP carries who can clear waves really fast. Kennen used to be extremely dominant in lane but now there are many matchups where he breaks even (of course this is also because stronger AP carries were introduced and old AP carries were buffed). Due to his poor damage scaling, he also wasn't exactly fit to fight tanky teams as the sole AP carry (think old Annie). However that's all in the past, nowadays with the dual AP carry metagame I feel that Kennen can fit into team comps a lot better. Teams can afford to have a main magic damage dealer as well as a heavy utility nuker (eg: Gragas, Alistar, Zilean) who still does very respectable damage.
Skills
Mark of the Storm (Passive): Kennen's abilities add Marks of the Storm to opponents which last for 8 seconds. An opponent is stunned for 1 second upon receiving 3 Marks of the Storm. Also, Kennen receives 25 energy. The stun has a diminished effect if applied more than once within 7 seconds.
Note: I'm not sure how “diminished” the stun becomes. If someone knows they can tell me and I'll add it here.
Thundering Shuriken (Active): Kennen throws a fast moving shuriken towards a location, causing damage and adding a Mark of the Storm to any opponent that it hits.
Range: 900
Cost: 65 / 60 / 55 / 50 / 45 energy
Cooldown: 7 / 6 / 5 / 4 / 3 seconds
Magic Damage: 75 / 115 / 155 / 195 / 235 (+0.75 per ability power)
Notes: Its the range is actually slightly greater than its targeting circle. I would say its effective range is around 1000 (not that the number means anything). This comes in handy the most when it's too dangerous to get close to the creep wave to last hit.
Electrical Surge (Passive): Every 5 attacks, Kennen deals extra magic damage equal to a percentage of his attack damage and adds a Mark of the Storm to his target.
Magic Damage: 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 / 80% of his attack damage
(Active): Surges electricity through all nearby targets afflicted by Mark of the Storm, dealing magic damage and adding another mark.
Cost: 45 energy
Radius: 800
Cooldown: 14 / 12 / 10 / 8 / 6 seconds
Magic Damage: 65 / 95 / 125 / 155 / 185 (+0.55 per ability power)
Note: You CANNOT one shot (ranged) creep waves with EW combo until this is at least level 4 and you have a good amount of AP (like a NLR). If maxing Q first, this means you'll need to be at least level 12 before you can 1 shot waves. If you want to focus on farming, max this first.
Another note: the active of W will hit targets inside bushes (if they already have a mark obviously) and lightning effect will show you where the target is (so you can line up a Q for example). The active of W will also hit invisible opponents (so will Q of course). No one can escape, bahahahhaha!
Lightning Rush (Active): Kennen gains his base movement speed again as a flat movement speed bonus, as well as increased Armor and Magic Resistance, and the ability to pass through units for four seconds, but he is unable to attack. Lightning Rush deals magic damage and adds a Mark of the Storm to any hostile unit he passes through; deals half damage to minions.
Cost: 100/95/90/85/80 energy
(Kennen is refunded 40 energy if he passes through an enemy while using this spell, but can only gain this effect once)
Cooldown: 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 seconds
Magic Damage: 85 / 125 / 165 / 205 / 245 (+0.6 per ability power)
Armor & Magic Resist: 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50
Notes: Pressing E again will take you out of the “DBZ” state. Keep in mind that you CANNOT attack while in Lightning Rush. If you have a W proc up you must press E again to get out of Lightning Rush in order to autoattack (or else you'll end up moving around like an idiot, I'm sure the first time anyone played Kennen this has happened them). This is helpful in laning when you have a W proc up you can E through creeps, cancel E, auto + W for some cheap and easy harassment against weaker laners.
Another note: When using this in a teamfight make damn sure you pass through something to get 40 energy back, 100 energy kills your energy pool and you won't be able to use your other spells as much. Keep this in mind before you try to initiate a fight by DBZing through some people (and end up getting kited like an idiot without passing through anyone).
Slicing Maelstrom(Active): Kennen summons a magical storm that deals magic damage to a random enemy champion near Kennen every few seconds. The storm hits several times, increasing with level, and cannot hit the same target more than 3 times. A Mark of the Storm is applied to enemies each time they are hit.
Cost: 50 / 45 / 40 energy
Cooldown: 120 seconds
Radius: 550 (estimate)
Magic Damage: 80 / 145 / 210 (+0.4 per ability power) (per bolt)
Number of Bolts: 6 / 10 / 15
Time Between Bolts: 0.5 / 0.4 / 0.33 seconds
Note: The time it takes for Kennen's ultimate to hit the same champion is actually DOUBLE the time stated in the tooltip. This means it will take 1.0/0.8/0.66 seconds for a lightning bolt to strike a target previous to its last bolt. What's important about this is that you cannot keep a target stun-locked with just your ultimate (eg: you have 2 marks on someone, you can't just flash+ult in to get the stun and then get the next 2 bolts off before the stun wears off, they WILL be able to flash out). If you want to keep someone stunlocked, you must have at least 2 other skills off cooldown to successfully re-stun someone before they can move.
Another note: this ultimate is HEAVILY dependent on level with respect to how many people it can stun. At level 1 or 2 it cannot stun a whole team, in fact if you get really unlucky it might not stun anyone at all (in a full 5v5 teamfight)! Take note of key targets and make sure you either premark them or have Q and W up to stun them during the ult.
Skill Progression
QWQEQR; R > Q > W > E
Alternate: R > W > Q > E
Notes: It's possible to start at level 1 with W against lanes you know you'll be able to autoattack harass (melee usually). Q is infinitely better for level 1 fights though. Against a weak laner, it's often better to take E at level 3 to really start zoning/harassing them.
Nowadays a lot of champions clear waves so fast it's difficult to harass them (eg: Malz/Brand/Orianna/so many AP heros I can't count); there are also ones who hit a critical stage where you start doing no damage to them and they just out-sustain you (eg: Udyr/Mord/WW). It's more effective to max W before Q in these situations (where you may not be able to harass effectively). What this will do is make it farm-off, you can spam E->W to clear the wave all day and put pressure on their tower. Maxing W first will also give you more heal off of your E->W combo when you buy revolver and will give you more opportunity to roam and gank as well (or steal your jungler's wraiths).
Summoners
Flash + Ghost/Ignite/Exhaust/Teleport
Flash is mandatory on a caster that depends on positioning, it will circumvent the possibility of being kited with E on. Ignite is the standard on all AP carries that go mid, it will help out in a 1v1 burst duel against other AP carries. Ghost is for overall mobility during teamfights and chasing people/keeping them in your ult (better to have ghost during your ult in teamfights than burn your E and 100 energy in the process). Exhaust is great for AP carries that get in the thick of things. Teleport is for dragon control, ganks, and counter ganks (usually if you're top lane).
Personally I've tested out all combinations, and I still feel like Flash/Ghost is the best multipurpose combo for Kennen. Ghost is really useful for teamfights and for a kiting champion. I never felt like I've gotten any extra kills with Ignite that I wouldn't have gotten already (usually it's because you stunned them into oblivion 1v1). If you're not sure you can win 1v1, it's better to just not fight at all (if you get jumped, Ignite is probably not going to help you win a 1v1 fight and your opponent will most likely have it as well).
Masteries
There are two sets of masteries that I think are viable on Kennen (I would say the same two sets are viable on all manaless AP casters like Vlad or Katarina):
9/0/21: Standard manaless AP caster (don't take any of the mana regen masteries obviously)
9/21/0: Gives Kennen a little extra tank in him (don't pick up strength of spirit obviously) and of course gives you Nimblesness. Downside is longer summoner cooldowns and slower movespeed.
I used to use 9/0/21 always, however I've recently been using 9/21/0 as well, it's a trade-off between summoner cooldown+movespeed vs tankiness+nimbleness, choose your own preference. I noticed that the extra defense is definitely noticeable (and the faster summoner cooldown is definitely noticeable as well).
Runes
I will list what I think is viable then I'll list what I personally use
Marks: Mpen – standard, I guess AP/level can work too but I feel like Kennen needs that early game strength from Mpen.
Seals: AP/level, HP/level, Energy regen/level, Dodge (if running 21 defense for nimbleness procs) – personally I use AP/level because I don't have the IP to shell out for Energy regen/level. Energy regen/level will give you +10 Energy/second at level 18 (basically like a blue buff, blue gives you +15 Energy/second) and it will allow you to spam a little more late game. I feel like a legit Kennen player should shell out the IP for Energy regen runes (but they are 820 a pop...)
Glyphs: AP/level, Flat MR, MR/level – personally I use the standard AP/level, Flat MR will help you against some of the AP carries early game.
Quints: Flat AP, Mspd, Flat HP, Mpen – I personally use Flat AP quints, feel free to use whatever you feel is necessary (if you like running 21 defense, maybe a movespeed quint or two would be useful).
Items
Starting: Boots+3pots (or 4 if you wait in fountain for a bit). It's possible to start with Doran's shield as well (make sure you have 21 utility if you want to start with Doran's).
I feel like against in a matchup where the other person has skillshots, it's definitely wise to start with boots+pots. If you're scared to be bursted down (against Annie lane or Malz lane), having that extra HP from Doran's will really help.
Core:
Hextech Revolver/ Sorc boots or Merc treads/ Zhonya or Deathcap or Rylai
Kennen doesn't have the option to buy Catalyst or Philostone so Hextech Revolver is the next best option (basically mandatory on all manaless AP champions for lane sustain).
Zhonya vs Deathcap vs Rylai first depends on your playstyle, your team, and your opponents. I like flat out rushing a Deathcap if your team has good AoE initiation spells already (eg: Amumu + Annie + Sona on your team? Why bother to Zhonya first just rush Deathcap). If your team has a good teamfight comp but is dependent on you going in early, it's better to go Zhonya first (eg: Ashe initiate with Fiddle + Orianna on your team? You probably need to go in to set them up). Rylai is a great item if you don't plan on playing AoE teamfight-centric (eg: Kite + Heal team comp). It allows you to play Kennen like a kiting beast and it'll help you clean up any stragglers after teamfights.
I used to always rush Rylai with Kennen (way back in the day when Zhonya was still a ring), but I feel like my playstyle is the glass cannon DBZ-jump-in-AoE-teamfight playstyle and I started to rush Zhonya first (and I got a lot more wins as a result). Nowadays I alternate between going Zhonya or Deathcap first after Hextech. I think it's completely up to personal preference what big item you get first so play a couple games and test out different builds to see what you're most comfortable with.
Luxury:
Will of the Ancients (Gunblade for the lols)/ Zhonya or Deathcap or Rylai (whichever two you didn't buy earlier)/ Void Staff (100% necessary once they start stacking MR)/ Quicksilver Sash (very useful item)/ Abyssal
These should be self-explanatory. If you really don't know what you want to get, just finish up WotA, finish the triple combination of Deathcap/Zhonya/Rylai and top it off with a Void Staff.
Notes: I was told the "best" Kennen actually rushes WotA first.
Laning
Goals:
- Farm up enough gold for Hextech Revolver and Sorc Boots (split into 2 trips usually)
That's really the only goal I have in lane. If you're facing a weak lane opponent, obviously you want to very aggressive early on, don't be afraid to spam Q since energy is free and you'll regen it in no time (blow EWQ if you must). If you're facing a strong lane opponent, focus on your own farm. Luckily Kennen is excellent at farming at tower since his abilities are based off of energy (and he has multiple abilities to deal damage).
Tips from starfries on laning:
How 2 harass with Kennen: Get your W passive up (the autoattack modifier). If the enemy doesn't have a snare, then just charge at them with E. The instant you touch them with E, cancel E, hit them with autoattack + W for the stun, and then Q them in the face while stunned. Back away to the side (NOT through minions) while throwing autoattacks. The reason you do this is because they have one mark of the storm on them from your Q. If they try to chase after you, then you can proc another W passive and Q them for another stun. If they don't, then just toss a Q at them as they run and go back to last hitting.
If they have a snare, it's a lot harder since you can't proc the E. You can still E through their minions, hit them with W passive + W active, Q them for stun and run away, but it's not as effective a trade.
Teamfights
Main roles: secondary initiation, counter initiator, clean-up
Kennen's main teamfight utility is his ult; he's also great when the fight starts dying down because he can chase off stragglers and kite around the remaining opponents. Everyone knows how to blow all their summoners and jump in with ult on/activate Zhonya. However, it's important to know your role on your team to best master the timing of your ult. If your team has better initiation (and your team ideally should because people can just flash out of your ult if you initiate with it) let that person go in first before you jump in (don't activate E and charge in thinking you're invincible).
When you jump in and Ult, try not to activate Zhonya right away unless you know you'll immediately get focused. Of course sometimes that's dumb to say because someone might have an instant cc for you, in that case it's probably better just to Zhonya right away to make sure you'll be safe. When you have QSS, you can try to bait CCs by using QSS->Zhonya. I try to Q and W before I activate Zhonya to maximize the number of marks I can get and for cooldown purposes. I also try to keep track of marks on a high priority target so I can focus the rest of my marks on them after Zhonya. Saving E for after your ultimate is useful because you'll still have a strong mobility spell to either get out or get an important stun in (another reason why Ghost is so important).
TLDR Guide:
Early game (4.0/5): Lane dominator, can win or equal out most lanes.
Mid game (4.5/5): Excellent damage/CC and great ganker/counter ganker
Late game (3.5/5): Damage tapers off, still provides strong utility in the form of CC
Preferred lane: Mid or Top solo
Skills: QWQEQR R>Q>W>E (easy lane) or R>W>Q>E (difficult lane)
Summoners: Flash + Ghost/Ignite/Teleport (top lane)
Masteries: 9/0/21 or 9/21/0
Runes: Red/Yellow/Blue/Quint – Mpen/AP per level/AP per level/Flat AP
Items: Boots+3 pots -> Hextech Revolver -> Deathcap/Zhonya/Rylai -> Void/WotA/Abyssal
+ Show Spoiler [Patch History] +
V1.0.0.123
Thundering Shuriken ability power ratio increased to .75 from .66
Lightning Rush
Energy cost adjusted to 100/95/90/85/80 from 100 at all levels
Ability power ratio increased to .6 from .55
V1.0.0.109:
Mark of the Storm Mark of the Storm duration reduced to 8 seconds from 12.
Electrical Surge Electrical Surge range decreased to 800 from 825.
V1.0.0.101:
Lightning Rush Lightning Rush is no longer castable while disabled.
V1.0.0.99:
Electrical Surge Electrical Surge ability power ratio increased to 0.55 from 0.45.
Lightning Rush Lightning Rush.
Energy cost reduced to 100 from 110.
It now provides 10/20/30/40/50 magic resistance and armor for 4 seconds.
Slicing Maelstrom Slicing Maelstrom:
Ability power ratio increased to 0.4 from 0.33.
Maximum number of bolts increased to 6/10/15 from 6/8/10, it still retains the cap of 3 hits per target.
Removed the cap of applying only 1 Mark of the Storm Mark of the Storm per target.
Mark of the Storm Mark of the Storm stun duration reduced to 1 second from 1.25. Mark of the Storm has a diminished stun effect if applied more than once within seven seconds.
V1.0.0.82: Added.
Thundering Shuriken Thundering Shuriken: Kennen throws a lightning infused shuriken towards a location, damaging the first enemy it hits and adding a Mark of the Storm to them
Electrical Surge Electrical Surge: Kennen passively deals extra damage and adds a Mark of the Storm to opponents every few attacks, and can activate this ability to deal damage to all nearby marked units and add another mark
Lightning Rush Lightning Rush: Kennen transforms into a writhing ball of electricity, receiving a massive energy boost and gaining the ability to move through units. Enemy units he passes through receive damage and gain a Mark of the Storm
Slicing Maelstrom Slicing Maelstrom (Ultimate): Kennen summons an electrical storm around him, casting down lightning bolts to a random enemy champions near him multiple times per second
Mark of the Storm Mark of the Storm (Innate): Kennen's abilities add Marks of the Storm to opponents they hit, which explode at 3 stacks, stunning the opponent and restoring some of Kennen's energy.
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As soon as they buff zhonya (couple patches iirc) he's gonna be really good again. Until then he will just be there to remind us that xpecial once was the best AP carry player in the game.
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Are you planning to add anything about AD Kennen? Azen Zagenite got to ~1800 playing pretty much only AD Kennen (until Lux came out).
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he still plays AD Kennen at over 2K, lololol. AD Kennen so strong.
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Played with him yesterday, I was pretty surprised ad kennen could do so well.
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it's funny cause it's really strong in the current meta with everyone running AD runes and having stuns to go along with a lanemate.
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I use a similar build to Ego Ignaxio (probably who you're thinking of when you say "best" Kennen, also you put RotA instead of WotA). He rushes Will and then Rylai's into Deathcap, usually no Zhonya's.
I think Zhonya's sucks too, and let me explain why. First of all, when you Zhonya's, you don't do any damage. Yes, your ult is ticking, but your ult doesn't do that much damage on its own. If you're just going to run in and ult and let your team clean up, you should just play Amumu.
Second, Zhonya's isn't really useful until level 16. Before that, you can only hit 3 people, and you don't need to be in the very middle of the fight. You can catch them in the edge and run alongside while throwing shurikens and still hit 3 people for the full duration.
Third, you already end up quite tanky with Will, Rylai's, and 50 free armor/mr. You generally won't die until you've stunned everyone anyways, so it's a bit of a waste. If you have to initiate it's a better choice, but again you end up like a poor man's Amumu.
I think the laning section needs a bit more stuff. Kennen's laning is extremely strong, but it's more than just spamming Q.
How 2 harass with Kennen: Get your W passive up (the autoattack modifier). If the enemy doesn't have a snare, then just charge at them with E. The instant you touch them with E, cancel E, hit them with autoattack + W for the stun, and then Q them in the face while stunned. Back away to the side (NOT through minions) while throwing autoattacks. The reason you do this is because they have one mark of the storm on them from your Q. If they try to chase after you, then you can proc another W passive and Q them for another stun. If they don't, then just toss a Q at them as they run and go back to last hitting.
If they have a snare, it's a lot harder since you can't proc the E. You can still E through their minions, hit them with W passive + W active, Q them for stun and run away, but it's not as effective a trade.
Also, you can use your ult to regain energy. Each stun gives you 25 energy, so if you catch a few people you actually gain more energy than it costs. Using it in this way gives you much better DPS than the energy system usually allows.
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is ego ignaxio that dude who plays kennen every normal? He seemed like a really pussy laner
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Ego Ignaxio is someone I don't know who's 1600 something. They are not the best Kennen... zzz
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yeah he is, although I've only seen him play once so I don't really know how he usually lanes him, I just stole his build l0l
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If someone wants to write something about AD Kennen, I can add it in there. Personally I don't know shit about it other than you just go the standard AD build (I know Salce recommends it on TT as well).
On July 29 2011 04:24 starfries wrote:
I use a similar build to Ego Ignaxio (probably who you're thinking of when you say "best" Kennen, also you put RotA instead of WotA). He rushes Will and then Rylai's into Deathcap, usually no Zhonya's.
I think Zhonya's sucks too, and let me explain why. First of all, when you Zhonya's, you don't do any damage. Yes, your ult is ticking, but your ult doesn't do that much damage on its own. If you're just going to run in and ult and let your team clean up, you should just play Amumu.
Second, Zhonya's isn't really useful until level 16. Before that, you can only hit 3 people, and you don't need to be in the very middle of the fight. You can catch them in the edge and run alongside while throwing shurikens and still hit 3 people for the full duration.
Third, you already end up quite tanky with Will, Rylai's, and 50 free armor/mr. You generally won't die until you've stunned everyone anyways, so it's a bit of a waste. If you have to initiate it's a better choice, but again you end up like a poor man's Amumu.
Sure you can't cast anything while you use Zhonya, that's why I recommended casting spells and then using Zhonya so you can maximize your cooldowns (since cooldowns of W and Q are longer than Zhonya activation). You can do this up until a point late in the game where you'd just instantly melt if you don't immediately Zhonya.
Like I said, the build is completely up to the player. Maybe your style fits better with kiting using Rylai, personally I like the glass cannon style better. When you complete that Zhonya or Deathcap mid game you can wreck a whole team by yourself, something (non AP) Amumu can't possible hope to do. The style is more akin to Karthas than Amumu, I'm not trying to initiate with Kennen (unless our team comp is so bad that I'm forced to), I jump in after initiation and blow everything up mid game while I still do ridiculous damage. Kennen's ult is actually his best scaling skill (+1.2 AP scaling since it ticks 3 times per champion). Landing the perfect ult and then using Zhonya is my favorite part of using Kennen and I wanted to reflect that in my guide.
I think the laning section needs a bit more stuff. Kennen's laning is extremely strong, but it's more than just spamming Q.
How 2 harass with Kennen: Get your W passive up (the autoattack modifier). If the enemy doesn't have a snare, then just charge at them with E. The instant you touch them with E, cancel E, hit them with autoattack + W for the stun, and then Q them in the face while stunned. Back away to the side (NOT through minions) while throwing autoattacks. The reason you do this is because they have one mark of the storm on them from your Q. If they try to chase after you, then you can proc another W passive and Q them for another stun. If they don't, then just toss a Q at them as they run and go back to last hitting.
If they have a snare, it's a lot harder since you can't proc the E. You can still E through their minions, hit them with W passive + W active, Q them for stun and run away, but it's not as effective a trade.
Thanks, I'll add this. I figured a lot of stuff was explained in my notes about the skills but I guess it's more complete if I have it all in the laning section as well.
Edit: Anyone know how I can resize the picture so it looks better? =(
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Edit: Anyone know how I can resize the picture so it looks better? =(
It automatically resizes if you have the option enabled under your TL profile.
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I don't remember going WotA first, I went Hextech sometimes but not WotA. Rylai is still the best thing ever though, unless you plan on laning for the first 25~ mins.
:3
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United States37500 Posts
On July 29 2011 04:41 Mogwai wrote:
Ego Ignaxio is someone I don't know who's 1600 something. They are not the best Kennen... zzz
Hmm, I beg to differ. He may play like a pussy but he is everything you would want in an ally Kennen. Who plays a better AP Kennen (outside of the elite players, eg Salce)?
On July 29 2011 20:45 mercurial wrote:
I don't remember going WotA first, I went Hextech sometimes but not WotA. Rylai is still the best thing ever though, unless you plan on laning for the first 25~ mins.
:3
Nah. Unless you need the health, WotA is a much better first item imo. You get the same AP + insane spell vamp, for 1K less gold. You can whittle away your solo enemy easily and forever lane. Rylai's second for sure but I think you can delay the HP for a while.
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On July 29 2011 21:31 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 04:41 Mogwai wrote:
Ego Ignaxio is someone I don't know who's 1600 something. They are not the best Kennen... zzz Hmm, I beg to differ. He may play like a pussy but he is everything you would want in an ally Kennen. Who plays a better AP Kennen (outside of the elite players, eg Salce)? Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 20:45 mercurial wrote:
I don't remember going WotA first, I went Hextech sometimes but not WotA. Rylai is still the best thing ever though, unless you plan on laning for the first 25~ mins.
:3 Nah. Unless you need the health, WotA is a much better first item imo. You get the same AP + insane spell vamp, for 1K less gold. You can whittle away your solo enemy easily and forever lane. Rylai's second for sure but I think you can delay the HP for a while.
Real Kennen's barely lane after lvl 8/9 :/
It'd be stupid to waste your early/mid game domination by thinking you need WotA for sustain when a Hextech is enough because you shouldn't be laning that much anymore.
Btw, I mained Kennen and used him to carry me up to 1900 before he got nerfed. :3
And I can tell you with certainty that when you go Rylai before Hextech/WotA you'll feel so much stronger because Kennen's shuriken is so spammable and lets you keep them in your stun range for so much longer. And you actually do need the HP.
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The game as it is now basically means you have no choice but to stay in lane anyways. Top and bot river are always going to be warded so there's really no ganking either. You can go annoy the enemy jungler but really, winning your lane is the most reliable way of forcing a teamplay.
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On July 29 2011 21:31 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 04:41 Mogwai wrote:
Ego Ignaxio is someone I don't know who's 1600 something. They are not the best Kennen... zzz Hmm, I beg to differ. He may play like a pussy but he is everything you would want in an ally Kennen. Who plays a better AP Kennen (outside of the elite players, eg Salce)?
Azen, Salce, Elementz, Xpecial
why do you want to exclude elite players again? I'm confused
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
According to Ego, when Kennen uses his ult there is an invisible line that runs anticlockwise around him. As the line sweeps around in a circle, it applies Marks of the Storm to the champions it sweeps around. In a 1v1 situation, that means if you run clockwise around your target quickly (say, with Ghost) the line will repeatedly sweep across the poor chap and you can stun-lock him down.
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On July 30 2011 02:41 MoonBear wrote:
According to Ego, when Kennen uses his ult there is an invisible line that runs anticlockwise around him. As the line sweeps around in a circle, it applies Marks of the Storm to the champions it sweeps around. In a 1v1 situation, that means if you run clockwise around your target quickly (say, with Ghost) the line will repeatedly sweep across the poor chap and you can stun-lock him down.
That won't work in a 1v1 situation because it only hits a max number of times per second, the number is also delayed when against a single target but that small timer decreases with rank. It can be used to instantly focus a target in a large scale teamfight though if you can get the timing right, so you can get it to say hit the same target 3 times instead of it randomly hitting a tankier, less threatening champ over and over (since it only strikes 6 times at rank 1) when you first get your ultimate.
As for rushing WotA.. it's something I only recently started doing. You should still have Rylai's as well by 22 minutes at the very latest. I'm posting from my phone right now so I won't go in depth but I talk about why in my guide on solomid.
As for wether or not I'm the "best" Kennen player, I'd put in the argument that I've still played him over twice as much as anyone in the game by quite a margin. Even if solo queue elo was the end all determination of skill (I understand that numbers are probably the only thing people care about on a website like this) the fact would still remain that I've enough experience to know a thing or two about Kennen. I play with these "elite" players all the time and many could vouch for me.
Over half the Kennen porn on the internet is because of my behest, I think that's as much credibility as one could hope to attain.
As for me being a "1600 player", I'd bring up the fact that I got my friends account (shot coplifting, I got a name change on it to ego Lgnaxio) to a higher elo than my main account in a matter of days with a 94% win rate over 45 games, primarily with just Kennen and Annie in 39 of the games. The only games I lost were from people intentionally throwing the game, in one case surrendering a still easy victory. I just lose motivation around 1650 because I don't care for draft mode and would rather just play games with friends instead of solo queue ranked since that's what the game is about to me.
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United States37500 Posts
lol, hai Ego
Amused that you found this guide.
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A friend linked me, I normally don't browse this site
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Kennen just got viable again, Thursday will be a happy day.
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I think he was already viable ^^
I like the buff, his late game scaling is definitely improved. It makes sense that his Q should scale better than Annie's (or at least evenly). The E buff is really nice too, I hate it when I use E to chase and end up with no energy to do other things.
I updated the changes.
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I'm such a happy camper again ^_^
I actually quit after they nerfed Kennen and Anivia :3
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I hate everything about Kennen on enemy team. I am not looking forward to playing against more of them.
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I'm maining Kennen for quite a while now, granted I'm only lvl 20 so far, but I'm doing very well with him, often times dieing only once or twice and having 8+ kills/assists.
I quite like his style and utility and I think he has a good set of skills that are always useful in some way.
So far I didn't really feel he needed a buff, but I'm quite thankful for it. So I'll keep stickin' with him for a long time now.
I play him as AP, haven't tried AD yet.
Using Ignite and Flash for summoner skills.
Usually buying Doran's Shield first for sustained laning in the beginning.
Then getting Boots of Swiftness, Rylai's Crystal Scepter then Abyssal Scepter or Zhonya's Hourglass depending on the enemy team (but will get them both regardless) and Rabadon's Deathcap. Then usually I repleace Doran's Shield with Void Staff or Will of the Ancients.
(Will consider looking into Hextech/WotA more though)
For runes I use magic pen., cooldown reduction, energy regeneration and +health.
With champion level 3 I get 1 level in thundering shuriken, lightning rush and electrical surge (in that order) and then max shuriken first, then electrical surge and lightning rush last.
Not really sure if this is the best setup or way to play Kennen, but I'm doing fine with it.
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Kennen is currently my most hated champion. I rather walk over a hundred shrooms then face a Kennen.
Yeah i get it, you can lightning dash out of ANYTHING, big man.
So fucking boring. His range is massive so he is never gonna bother to fight you, and even if he does he lightning rushes back to his base. Even if you catch him in the lightning rush then he actually has improved armor and mr so you aren't gonna be doing shit on him anyway.
Kennen was terrible half a year ago, he was in every fucking game. These buffs are gonna send him back into popularity and make LoL a living nightmare again.
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Can confirm that this change made Kennen pretty ridiculous in the late stages of the game. I was fed one game, and I was very able to poke nontanks for 50% with just Q W. He really didn't feel this strong before this latest change.
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Bought Kennen and Karate Kennen with rp. So good
does anyone play early game AD then transition to AP? Sounds really good with 21/x/x
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I've seen dblade -> gunblade -> AP before. It was weird but worked.
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i currently run doran shield -> boot -> revolver -> Rylai
it feels great! with revolving and insane farming you dont ever have to go back to base. You can pressure tower hardcore since if you get hurt you heal up right away.
Once you get buff hp with raylai and such you can go in right after the initiation to STUN THE CRAP OUT OF EVERYONE and it's awesome!!
On top of that you actually hurt a lot. Once you get good with e -> ult -> w -> autoatk + q -> w you can pull off insane amount of damage! I get a feeling kennen's ult is so much better than fiddle's ult when you throw in your combos...
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I prefer rushing WoTA before rylais like ego's guide on solomid says to do. Getting the extra 80 ap is really nice, plus i feel WoTA is really underrated, the spell vamp aura helps quite a bit in early game teamfights.
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i have heard rumours of a high elo guy who mains AD kennen
anyone has his name?
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Azen Zagenite 2101 elo
You mean that guy? He was maining AD Kennen last time I checked. That was before the recent buffs though.
Seems like he still plays AD Kennen, but also some AP. He has one game IE Starks, one game BR Wits and one game AP Kennen in his history.
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no idea. i dont know the guy's name, only heard of him like a legend. is he the one? i'll check him out, thanks.
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How do you play against Xerath? I actually suck against him with all APs but I play Kennen most. My strategy right now is to just push the lane like mad to make him waste mana early on clearing creeps and throw shurikens while he tries to last hit. But then he gets blue and destroys me 
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I don't understand how Kennen is so underplayed.
He farms so well, he bursts so hard, and his ult rapes so hard in team fights.
I think his only weakness is that to stun, you need 3 marks, which really aren't that easy to add on to someone that hides amongst creep (unless you use W passive then activate it when it adds the mark.
If you do get the E>Q>W combo off it hurts so much though.
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He isn't really, I see him all the time now. Makes me a bit sad since I liked when not many people know how strong he is. He's probably a bit overpowered if we're being perfectly honest, but thankfully there hasn't been too much QQ yet.
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I think he is underplayed considering just how good he is.
I would be hard pressed to call him overpowered though.. unless all top tier champs are overpowered.
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Not saying you're wrong, but what exactly is op about him? Only thing I really consider ridiculous is his ult. Even then I just think its the damage.
I just love using him in normal games. Stomped so many people, even making 4 of them run from me near one of our turrets when I ult'd. Destroyed everything except for Malz, which seems to be one of his worst matchups (fucker pushes far too hard).
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Baa?21242 Posts
On December 21 2011 09:02 Cloud9157 wrote:
Not saying you're wrong, but what exactly is op about him? Only thing I really consider ridiculous is his ult. Even then I just think its the damage.
I just love using him in normal games. Stomped so many people, even making 4 of them run from me near one of our turrets when I ult'd. Destroyed everything except for Malz, which seems to be one of his worst matchups (fucker pushes far too hard).
Kennen's laning is just ridiculous. A low CD huge range energy based harass that has really good base damage, E that helps escape from ganks + extra durability, and just general good stats for a caster who hits hard but is still tanky.
His only weakness is it's hard to push back, so yeah, Malzahar and Morgana do pretty well vs. him, but he's hard pressed tos traight up lose a lane. At worst it's even, in some cases he shits on the other guy. (hi Veigar) also he's a monster top lane too.
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Yeah I do like his laning in particular. Reminds me a lot of how I did with Kassadin except that I farm 10 times better.
Even then, I get the equivalent to Riftwalk at lvl 3.
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I'm not a Kennen player but when I see someone pick Kennen I go either mao or rammus because that's basically the only 2 junglers that can catch kennen in lane right now for a kill.
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So many Kennen picks lately, how the hell did this happen?
Whenever I see one I avoid playing mid AP cus hes so hard to lane against, also when im a jungler I tend not to gank mid cus i fail 90% of the time due to that huge MS boost.
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I don't think his laning is that ridiculous, lots of champions can do fine vs him. And to farm kennen actually has to get somewhat near creeps unlike many other casters.
Also some casters do very well in lane vs him.
Ok well yeah his laning is *very strong* overall but he doesn't stand out to me as complete bullshit like a few of the champs in this game.
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On December 21 2011 09:16 travis wrote:
I don't think his laning is that ridiculous, lots of champions can do fine vs him. And to farm kennen actually has to get somewhat near creeps unlike many other casters.
Also some casters do very well in lane vs him.
Which caster would you recommend? I fail with most of them vs Kennen
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I think ryze is good but I think annie is really really good vs him
I think gragas should do well if played well
leblanc beats everyone right?
I don't know about morgana but I do think malz should do well
anyone with real long range can prolly be played in a way that they come out around even in cs without dying at mid I think, but im not real sure about that
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Maybe I don't face that many good Kens, but I hold my own vs them as Swain.
Want to rush me with E? Heres a Q>E>W. There goes half of your health. Add on R+ignite at lvl 6 and you better pray you don't die.
Kassadin is also a very good pick against him, as is true against pretty much any other AP caster.
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yeah swain should be good against him
I don't know about kassadin that's an interesting one..
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Shit, I keep forgetting about Ryze. Hmmm thats pretty interesting.
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I see a lot of people use him as an ult bot, waiting for an initiate and going flash R>E>run around>W. It works fine and he's pretty balanced if you use him like that. But his burst potential is huge, bigger than a lot of AP carries if you can actually land more than one shuriken on your target in a fight, and you can chain stun your target twice as well. If you can actually land those skills he feels like Akali with a huge AOE stun. Not to mention he has a great laning phase and counters a lot of champions both top and mid, isn't blue/mana dependent, can rush WotA, has great sustainability, mobility for ganking, basically ungankable, can poke and kite really well. His only real weakness is the fact that he need to get in close in teamfights and is vulnerable to focus.
note that I'm not a good Kennen player so I can't do all those things consistently. But whenever I play Kennen I feel like his kit lets him do pretty much anything, and if things go wrong it's because I'm not using it optimally.
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Yes I think his Q is amazing if you can hit people with it but out of all the skillshots in the game that I use I think that one might be the single hardest to land consistently.
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against Kennen
He's not that great against pushers because EW takes a long time to get to wave-clearing levels. Also because his full burst requires him to get in melee range, anyone that can burst him down without letting him get close will force him to play passive. You won't kill him, since he can just sit back and throw Qs, but if you push the wave you are usually free to roam and gank.
yeah Ryze is a good choice. Morgana is pretty good too since if he actually tries to kill you, you can block so many marks of the storm with shield and you can just push his lane all day. I think Kennen can actually beat Swain early on or if Swain doesn't have blue, since he can flash over the snare, and his first stun is almost instant with R W passive W active.
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Baa?21242 Posts
Kassadin and Annie get shat on by Kennen -__-
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How does annie get shat on by kennen
she has long range and a regular stun
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On December 21 2011 08:30 starfries wrote:
He isn't really, I see him all the time now. Makes me a bit sad since I liked when not many people know how strong he is. He's probably a bit overpowered if we're being perfectly honest, but thankfully there hasn't been too much QQ yet.
Kennen used to be OP fotm that everyone played. Then they got rid of Zhonya's Ring and nerfed him. So he fell into obscurity for awhile.
I don't think he's too out of line to be honest. He has several counters in lane and I don't want Riot to nerf yet another AP who makes a good 1v1 duelist. I think the reason he gets seen a lot more and might seem OP is because he can run mid or top and allows teams to easily run double WotA. If people and Riot really think he's OP I'd much rather them nerf WotA and then see where he's at.
Unless they give him a huge nerf he's always going to be viable because his kit and his passive are really good.
edit:
In my experience Annie rapes Kennen in lane. Like, it's not even close. Kennen can't get close to her or she 100->0s him.
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I agree that WotA is way too good and most QQ I've seen about Kennen is his synergy there. I wouldn't mind a nerf there tbh since a lot people use it as a crutch. Like if you make a mistake and accidentally feed first blood against someone you should be able to beat, then you can just sit back and farm with Q and do fine when with anyone else you would end up raped in lane.
Annie forces Kennen to farm passively which is as much a win as you're going to get. I think Kennen benefits more from a farm-off though. She can't really do the push lane and go gank thing that well either.
As for landing Qs in teamfights, you're guaranteed one off your initial stun and it's not that hard to land your second if you have Rylai's/red. The CDR from blue helps a lot too. I agree landing them outside of fights is tricky though.
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Baa?21242 Posts
On December 21 2011 09:32 travis wrote:
How does annie get shat on by kennen
she has long range and a regular stun
Squishy, shorter range than Q, has to get up close to Q minions to charge stun, can't trade with Kennen consistently.
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On December 21 2011 12:55 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 09:32 travis wrote:
How does annie get shat on by kennen
she has long range and a regular stun Squishy, shorter range than Q, has to get up close to Q minions to charge stun, can't trade with Kennen consistently.
I will agree with you pre 6, but once Annie gets Tibbers, she is going to burst Kennen down in a lot more situations than Kennen will burst her.
Once Annie hits 6, all she has to do is camp right in the middle of minions. Kennen has to farm with Q or just stay away from her. As soon as he wants to rush her with E, shes going to make him eat her full combo.
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Baa?21242 Posts
On December 21 2011 12:58 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 12:55 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On December 21 2011 09:32 travis wrote:
How does annie get shat on by kennen
she has long range and a regular stun Squishy, shorter range than Q, has to get up close to Q minions to charge stun, can't trade with Kennen consistently. I will agree with you pre 6, but once Annie gets Tibbers, she is going to burst Kennen down in a lot more situations than Kennen will burst her. Once Annie hits 6, all she has to do is camp right in the middle of minions. Kennen has to farm with Q or just stay away from her. As soon as he wants to rush her with E, shes going to make him eat her full combo.
Buy MR/giant's belt after revolver. Defensive masteries. Annie is dead after she bursts and you don't die.
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I haven't played the matchup in a while but my impression was that Annie is different from other burst casters because Tibbers shits on you if you try and fight it out.
edit: not to mention it's hard to land a shuriken with him in the way unless you're on top of her
someone should try it out. not me, because I suck.
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Baa?21242 Posts
Personal examples really aren't worth anything but for what it's worth I shat on every Annie with Kenne I've faced.
E onto her for extra MR, eat the burst, then kill her with ult + other stuff ;d
You don't even need to Q until she's stunned, just have a W charged auto attack ready, ult ticks + w + autoattack stuns, then Q for sure hit...
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United States37500 Posts
On December 21 2011 13:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Personal examples really aren't worth anything but for what it's worth I shat on every Annie with Kenne I've faced.
E onto her for extra MR, eat the burst, then kill her with ult + other stuff ;d
You don't even need to Q until she's stunned, just have a W charged auto attack ready, ult ticks + w + autoattack stuns, then Q for sure hit...
Personal examples are better than secondhand experiences. 
Your situation only works when you're ahead of Annie in items. Not that you're ahead in farm. But the simple fact that you based first and are back in lane with better stats. If you're on equal items with Annie at any time in lane after 6, I wouldn't support your advice from above. On equal ground, Annie is more likely to burst you down to 0 first, even if your total DPS is greater. She's faster.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
I've always considered Annie to at least draw in mid lane. Pre-6, neither can really stop the other from farming. Post-6, both have to play more carefully, though I'd say Kennen gets the shorter end of the stick between the two. The other thing is that both have the ability to clear waves fairly easily if given the chance, so it's hard for either to get enough of an advantage to leave the lane to gank other lanes.
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Baa?21242 Posts
On December 21 2011 13:53 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 13:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Personal examples really aren't worth anything but for what it's worth I shat on every Annie with Kenne I've faced.
E onto her for extra MR, eat the burst, then kill her with ult + other stuff ;d
You don't even need to Q until she's stunned, just have a W charged auto attack ready, ult ticks + w + autoattack stuns, then Q for sure hit... Personal examples are better than secondhand experiences. Your situation only works when you're ahead of Annie in items. Not that you're ahead in farm. But the simple fact that you based first and are back in lane with better stats. If you're on equal items with Annie at any time in lane after 6, I wouldn't support your advice from above. On equal ground, Annie is more likely to burst you down to 0 first, even if your total DPS is greater. She's faster.
I think it's unreasonable to think Annie will be even in items post-6 unless the Kennen faced massive jungle pressure for the first 6 levels.
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Annie and Kennen are 2 of my favorite champs to play, and I hate the matchup as Kennen vs Annie and obviously love it if I'm the Annie. Annie can push creep waves while remaining safer than Kennen and the minute it's level 6 vs level 6, unless Annie is lower on HP you don't want to get into an ult vs ult fight. Also, knowing how to avoid Kennen's Q and being able to pay attention to the passive on his W allows for a lot safer laning phase against him.
edit: It should be noted that, while I think Annie wins the matchup, I wouldn't really call her a counter to Kennen because, just as easily, if the Kennen is smart enough to avoid annie's burst it ends up where he can turn the tide. It's just easier to avoid Kennen's damage than Annie's.
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Kennen will win the match up assuming the Annie is stupid and lets Kennen get free Qs on her. Otherwise she will just burst him to 0 every time she has ult up. So Kennen has to play safe or he will die if he goes aggressive. With jungle ganks and stuff you could beat her and if you play passive and farm well enough without dying you'll come out ahead cause, imo, Kennen is stronger in a teamfight than Annie.
By the time you have money for MR/health after revolver Annie will have been able to full combo you twice. The only way Kennen actually wins that lane is if he punishes her super hard pre-6 which is tough because she can just hide behind minions and laugh at your Q, not to mention QW stun you if you try to auto + W exchange.
edit:
But I'd like to stress again, Kennen can at least draw the lane and if you get good jungle ganks can kill Annie. Without jungle Kennen should never ever kill Annie in lane lol. But if you at least go even you've basically won because Kennen > Annie for team fights and late game strength imo.
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Baa?21242 Posts
WTF kind of shit are you doing on Kennen that you're dying to Annie...? -_- Defensive masteries, revolver -> null magic mantle, MR runes. GG Annie.
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On December 21 2011 17:35 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
WTF kind of shit are you doing on Kennen that you're dying to Annie...? -_- Defensive masteries, revolver -> null magic mantle, MR runes. GG Annie.
If the Kennen isn't topped off, throw on an ignite on top of the full combo and ken can easiliy die. It's just the way it is. Obviously if you play really defensive and get extra mr you'll survive, but you've also made it likely you can never gank annie. All you've done is made yourself worse lategame while Annie stays the course.
That's not to say that is the wrong way to play Kennen against Annie; quite the contrary that is how I would/do. However, it simply goes back to the point that Annie has the advantage in the matchup and it's up to Kennen to adjust to not lose the lane, and win if the Annie plays poorly.
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On December 21 2011 17:35 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
WTF kind of shit are you doing on Kennen that you're dying to Annie...? -_- Defensive masteries, revolver -> null magic mantle, MR runes. GG Annie.
Annie will still win a trade assuming Kennen has all of that. She'll also just ignite you while stunned and the fact that you have spell vamp won't matter if you try to fight when her combo is done. Her Q is a pretty short cooldown, it'll just finish you off while you're mid-ult and Annie will live.
Y'know, maybe if you went 21 defense and got Null Magic Mantle super early you could win trades as Kennen. I don't think you could though and the fact that Annie forces Kennen to not take 21 offense and build mercs or waste 400 gold to win his lane means she's probably a pretty good counter.
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Baa?21242 Posts
Annie will be perma stunned if you play it right, she'll only have time for one rotation which you will survive if you rune defensively, after which you will kill her as she is perma stunned.
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Ok, so if you're topped off; if you land all of your skill shots; if you have bought mr items; and if you're runed for it, you can trade with Annie.
What is this supposed to be evidence of again?
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Baa?21242 Posts
It's evidence that if you play right you shouldn't lose the lane?
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vs Annie I dont think you should trade at all. I think you should play standard setup and go for the kill at lvl 6 with your E passive charged.
I posted on the GD topic about the masteries, and it was general consensus that 21 offense was the way to go. But where would you guys put the remaining 9 points?
Defensive: 30 health, 2 Armor/MR, 6 Armor/MR, 108 HP at lvl 18
Utility: 15 sec reduced Flash CD, Improved recall, 3% MS, 10 energy, buff duration.
I think utility is better, Flash is huge on Kennen, 10 energy is good and even though you wont be the one getting buffs, when you get red or blue because of kills you are a beast.
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3 energy 1 flash 1 recall 3 mr last point negligible and can be put anywhere
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On December 21 2011 09:33 overt wrote:
In my experience Annie rapes Kennen in lane. Like, it's not even close. Kennen can't get close to her or she 100->0s him.
no offense but i don't think you understand the lane matchup very well if you're viewing it as such
kennen can't get close is such a wrong mentality... kennen doesn't need to get close. kennen can poke from 29000 range with his Q every 0.01 seconds for no mana cost. kennen v annie matchups aren't about running at each other full speed and seeing who does more damage. they're about kennen flinging his Q in her general direction every time it's off cooldown. yeah, she's gonna hide in creeps a lot, and yeah he's gonna miss a lot of Qs. but he's not restrained by mana or range, both of which are restrictions on annie. as soon as she makes a mistake, kennen can get a couple Qs on her or a Q and a charged W auto and then what can annie do? now she can't risk engaging so she has to back... while kennen regens HP with no mana costs and keeps farming. if annie engages at this point she'll lose for sure
basically i just think you're seeing the lane wrong. kennen doesn't *want* to engage annie head to head from full health, that's not how you play kennen. he abuses superior range, cooldowns, and costs to wear her down, and as soon as he can engage, he wins.
carnivorous sheep is also correct, simply building one of the many defensive items that are core on kennen (giant's belt for rylai's, wota, null mantle for mercs, negatron for abyssal) will put him further ahead in the matchup than an AP item by annie, AND not slow down his build or final goal.
carnivorous sheep is ALSO correct in that regarding equal gank attempts from both junglers, kennen will likely edge out annie pre-6 and post-6. annie's got 0 escapes, kennen's got his OP E.
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On December 21 2011 18:19 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
It's evidence that if you play right you shouldn't lose the lane?
The argument is shifting from your original standpoint of:
On December 21 2011 09:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Kassadin and Annie get shat on by Kennen -__-
I agree with your most recent argument, not your initial one. I don't think Kennen or Annie should truly outright win the lane against eachother because they have to respect eachother's burst and high damage output. Kennen can't go clearing waves w/ an E/W combo and Annie can't go wandering out of her minions or too close to Kennen either. I think the advantage goes to Annie in lane, but as I stated earlier, I certainly wouldn't call her a counter. I don't think Kennen really has any counter in lane because of his excellent kit, except LB can obviously cause lots of issues for any squishier ap caster early game. I did struggle against Xerath, but I've only done the matchup maybe twice.
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On December 21 2011 20:19 deskscaress wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 09:33 overt wrote:
In my experience Annie rapes Kennen in lane. Like, it's not even close. Kennen can't get close to her or she 100->0s him. no offense but i don't think you understand the lane matchup very well if you're viewing it as such kennen can't get close is such a wrong mentality... kennen doesn't need to get close. kennen can poke from 29000 range with his Q every 0.01 seconds for no mana cost. kennen v annie matchups aren't about running at each other full speed and seeing who does more damage. they're about kennen flinging his Q in her general direction every time it's off cooldown. yeah, she's gonna hide in creeps a lot, and yeah he's gonna miss a lot of Qs. but he's not restrained by mana or range, both of which are restrictions on annie. as soon as she makes a mistake, kennen can get a couple Qs on her or a Q and a charged W auto and then what can annie do? now she can't risk engaging so she has to back... while kennen regens HP with no mana costs and keeps farming. if annie engages at this point she'll lose for sure basically i just think you're seeing the lane wrong. kennen doesn't *want* to engage annie head to head from full health, that's not how you play kennen. he abuses superior range, cooldowns, and costs to wear her down, and as soon as he can engage, he wins. carnivorous sheep is also correct, simply building one of the many defensive items that are core on kennen (giant's belt for rylai's, wota, null mantle for mercs, negatron for abyssal) will put him further ahead in the matchup than an AP item by annie, AND not slow down his build or final goal. carnivorous sheep is ALSO correct in that regarding equal gank attempts from both junglers, kennen will likely edge out annie pre-6 and post-6. annie's got 0 escapes, kennen's got his OP E.
this all sounds reasonable except for hitting her with the Q. If she is good I think you are literally never going to hit her with the Q unless you dive onto her.
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also Tibbers outranges your autoattack range and you can't reliably hit Qs unless you can proc stuns which is hard without W. if you stack enough MR to not die to her burst and you have a revolver than you can wear her down, but in that window between 6 and that point you have to be really careful.
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Even pre-revolver it's hard to deny Kennen from anything at all. The points between Annie 6 and Kennen buying revolver+whatever else to not get blown up, he can happily farm from far enough away that Annie has to blow flash to touch him, and if she does that and CAN'T 100->0 (he SHOULD be full health here.) him then she is boned.
Kennen getting a tanky item or two vs Annie is good all game anyway, it's NOT a waste, because later on you're going to be wanting to be in the middle of a teamfight with your ult running and if Annie can still blow you out of the water, you'll never be able to do that. Annie has good teamfight aoe, but Kennen's is better.
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On December 22 2011 04:10 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 20:19 deskscaress wrote:On December 21 2011 09:33 overt wrote:
In my experience Annie rapes Kennen in lane. Like, it's not even close. Kennen can't get close to her or she 100->0s him. no offense but i don't think you understand the lane matchup very well if you're viewing it as such kennen can't get close is such a wrong mentality... kennen doesn't need to get close. kennen can poke from 29000 range with his Q every 0.01 seconds for no mana cost. kennen v annie matchups aren't about running at each other full speed and seeing who does more damage. they're about kennen flinging his Q in her general direction every time it's off cooldown. yeah, she's gonna hide in creeps a lot, and yeah he's gonna miss a lot of Qs. but he's not restrained by mana or range, both of which are restrictions on annie. as soon as she makes a mistake, kennen can get a couple Qs on her or a Q and a charged W auto and then what can annie do? now she can't risk engaging so she has to back... while kennen regens HP with no mana costs and keeps farming. if annie engages at this point she'll lose for sure basically i just think you're seeing the lane wrong. kennen doesn't *want* to engage annie head to head from full health, that's not how you play kennen. he abuses superior range, cooldowns, and costs to wear her down, and as soon as he can engage, he wins. carnivorous sheep is also correct, simply building one of the many defensive items that are core on kennen (giant's belt for rylai's, wota, null mantle for mercs, negatron for abyssal) will put him further ahead in the matchup than an AP item by annie, AND not slow down his build or final goal. carnivorous sheep is ALSO correct in that regarding equal gank attempts from both junglers, kennen will likely edge out annie pre-6 and post-6. annie's got 0 escapes, kennen's got his OP E. this all sounds reasonable except for hitting her with the Q. If she is good I think you are literally never going to hit her with the Q unless you dive onto her.
if she is good is another massive mis-speak imo. at 500 elo, neither player is good, and obviously neither player has an advantage. at 1800 elo both players are good, and kennen definitely has the advantage. if the kennen is better than the annie, the kennen will win every time. if the annie is better than the kennen, kennen can still *not die* and just farm.
the lane is just in favor of kennen just based on the dynamics of both champs. if kennen wants to play safe he will never die. annie MUST be the aggressive against kennen to get kills, and in doing so she opens herself to Q harass. no player, no matter how good they are, can dodge every Q. regardless of how safe they play.
also eventually after enough passivity, annie will use her Q to keep farming, giving up her stun. kennen has a pretty safe window to be aggressive here. he'll eat counterharass but not a stun -> combo. and in a trade post-revolver, kennen will come out ahead even if he does less damage (on account of annie will be OOM and kennen can just regen his health back)
the lane is kennen's to lose, not annie's to win, if that makes any sense
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On December 22 2011 05:52 deskscaress wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 04:10 travis wrote:On December 21 2011 20:19 deskscaress wrote:On December 21 2011 09:33 overt wrote:
In my experience Annie rapes Kennen in lane. Like, it's not even close. Kennen can't get close to her or she 100->0s him. no offense but i don't think you understand the lane matchup very well if you're viewing it as such kennen can't get close is such a wrong mentality... kennen doesn't need to get close. kennen can poke from 29000 range with his Q every 0.01 seconds for no mana cost. kennen v annie matchups aren't about running at each other full speed and seeing who does more damage. they're about kennen flinging his Q in her general direction every time it's off cooldown. yeah, she's gonna hide in creeps a lot, and yeah he's gonna miss a lot of Qs. but he's not restrained by mana or range, both of which are restrictions on annie. as soon as she makes a mistake, kennen can get a couple Qs on her or a Q and a charged W auto and then what can annie do? now she can't risk engaging so she has to back... while kennen regens HP with no mana costs and keeps farming. if annie engages at this point she'll lose for sure basically i just think you're seeing the lane wrong. kennen doesn't *want* to engage annie head to head from full health, that's not how you play kennen. he abuses superior range, cooldowns, and costs to wear her down, and as soon as he can engage, he wins. carnivorous sheep is also correct, simply building one of the many defensive items that are core on kennen (giant's belt for rylai's, wota, null mantle for mercs, negatron for abyssal) will put him further ahead in the matchup than an AP item by annie, AND not slow down his build or final goal. carnivorous sheep is ALSO correct in that regarding equal gank attempts from both junglers, kennen will likely edge out annie pre-6 and post-6. annie's got 0 escapes, kennen's got his OP E. this all sounds reasonable except for hitting her with the Q. If she is good I think you are literally never going to hit her with the Q unless you dive onto her. if she is good is another massive mis-speak imo. at 500 elo, neither player is good, and obviously neither player has an advantage. at 1800 elo both players are good, and kennen definitely has the advantage. if the kennen is better than the annie, the kennen will win every time. if the annie is better than the kennen, kennen can still *not die* and just farm. the lane is just in favor of kennen just based on the dynamics of both champs. if kennen wants to play safe he will never die. annie MUST be the aggressive against kennen to get kills, and in doing so she opens herself to Q harass. no player, no matter how good they are, can dodge every Q. regardless of how safe they play. also eventually after enough passivity, annie will use her Q to keep farming, giving up her stun. kennen has a pretty safe window to be aggressive here. he'll eat counterharass but not a stun -> combo. and in a trade post-revolver, kennen will come out ahead even if he does less damage (on account of annie will be OOM and kennen can just regen his health back) the lane is kennen's to lose, not annie's to win, if that makes any sense
I think you argument is silly here. If Kennen wants to play safe he will never die.... doesn't that apply to nearly every champion? Ward placement and careful positioning should make it virtually impossible to be ganked without extreme coordination of efforts. Your statement that she HAS to be aggressive to get kills I would say is accurate, but why does Annie NEED to get kills? She can sit around and farm mid if she wants to, not like lategame Annie isn't strong, all of her ratios are really good.
Your argument is also shifting the margin of error to Annie, instead of equally. Maybe Annie wont dodge ever Q, but maybe kennen will eat a q/w combo or two when he tries to last hit and isn't topped off. I think the hardest part for the matchup is that Kennen NEEDS to be topped off or close to it until he can get more mr or that giant's belt. Kennen can obviously pump out plenty of damage himself, but that requires getting in close to do so, which means Mr. Tibbers will be able to smack him around for a bit as well. Also, while it seems negligible, that stun duration does matter.
I want to stress this again... I don't think Annie counters Kennen. The more I think about it, the only champ who I think might actually counter Kennen is Morgana (note: I still think Xerath might, but having only done the matchup a couple of times I'm just not sure... and maybe Veigar because it should become a game of pure farm, and that only makes Veigar that much better lategame) I'll exclude Kass/LB because that's just how they roll.
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OK now I know you don't know what you're talking about since both Veigar and Kassadin get demolished by Kennen. Veigar less so with buffs but it's still a very bad lane for him.
I don't know how much you actually play mid matchups but as someone who plays them almost every single game, extreme amounts of personal experience tells me what I've said is true, and logically thinking about it yields good reasons on why, whereas all you've come up with are completely unrealistic scenarios that tells me you're either playing bad Kennens/playing as a bad Kennen or you don't actually play mid enough :| You're just coming up with a lot of possible but unrealistic theoreticals to support your point.
Also Malzahar does pretty well against Kennen.
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dunno about vs annie... but Kassadin is so easy as kennen. Just level up W before Q and auto atk him each time he tries to last hit ;p he'll be painful xD
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On December 22 2011 08:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
OK now I know you don't know what you're talking about since both Veigar and Kassadin get demolished by Kennen. Veigar less so with buffs but it's still a very bad lane for him.
I don't know how much you actually play mid matchups but as someone who plays them almost every single game, extreme amounts of personal experience tells me what I've said is true, and logically thinking about it yields good reasons on why, whereas all you've come up with are completely unrealistic scenarios that tells me you're either playing bad Kennens/playing as a bad Kennen or you don't actually play mid enough :| You're just coming up with a lot of possible but unrealistic theoreticals to support your point.
Also Malzahar does pretty well against Kennen.
Agreed.
As a person who mains Kennen, Malzahar is the only champ that has raped me over and over again. Unless he is bad....
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On December 22 2011 08:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
OK now I know you don't know what you're talking about since both Veigar and Kassadin get demolished by Kennen. Veigar less so with buffs but it's still a very bad lane for him.
I don't know how much you actually play mid matchups but as someone who plays them almost every single game, extreme amounts of personal experience tells me what I've said is true, and logically thinking about it yields good reasons on why, whereas all you've come up with are completely unrealistic scenarios that tells me you're either playing bad Kennens/playing as a bad Kennen or you don't actually play mid enough :| You're just coming up with a lot of possible but unrealistic theoreticals to support your point.
Also Malzahar does pretty well against Kennen.
I don't think I've posted a single hypothetical that is even remotely rare. All I've said is that Annie can q/w combo a kennen if he gets aggressive at all and Kennen has to be topped off for fear of a full Annie combo. However, once he acquires enough mr or a giants belt then things change, obviously. All Annie has to do is avoid Q's (not that hard) and make sure not to eat too many auto'd W's to easily keep lane presence. I don't understand how either of those 2 things are difficult to really do for Kennen to magically have some advantage against Annie.
You are correct about Kassadin. I mostly threw that out there simply saying that Kass/LB are still mage assassins who can easily collect a kill if you're not careful. Obviously for Kennen, his ability to range farm against Kassadin largely negates the damage and thus he can farm all day without fear of the Kass + his obvious stun abilities + escape are easy enough to use to punish the Kass as well. But for those reasons I didn't say they were actually a counter to Kennen, although I didn't make it particularly clear in my wording I suppose.
Veigar does fine in lane against Kenn for the reasons listed except he can farm and can always keep his stun on CD, unlike Annie. I haden't thought about Malz since I see him so rarely now, but I'd definitely agree he can do well in the matchup.
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On December 22 2011 09:25 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 08:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
OK now I know you don't know what you're talking about since both Veigar and Kassadin get demolished by Kennen. Veigar less so with buffs but it's still a very bad lane for him.
I don't know how much you actually play mid matchups but as someone who plays them almost every single game, extreme amounts of personal experience tells me what I've said is true, and logically thinking about it yields good reasons on why, whereas all you've come up with are completely unrealistic scenarios that tells me you're either playing bad Kennens/playing as a bad Kennen or you don't actually play mid enough :| You're just coming up with a lot of possible but unrealistic theoreticals to support your point.
Also Malzahar does pretty well against Kennen. I don't think I've posted a single hypothetical that is even remotely rare. All I've said is that Annie can q/w combo a kennen if he gets aggressive at all and Kennen has to be topped off for fear of a full Annie combo. However, once he acquires enough mr or a giants belt then things change, obviously. All Annie has to do is avoid Q's (not that hard) and make sure not to eat too many auto'd W's to easily keep lane presence. I don't understand how either of those 2 things are difficult to really do for Kennen to magically have some advantage against Annie. Veigar does fine in lane against Kenn for the reasons listed except he can farm and can always keep his stun on CD, unlike Annie.
Annie has to charge her stun; Kennen's Q outranges Annie's AA and Q, so Kennen can harass with Q. If Annie loses her stun, in the time it takes for her to build it up, Kennen can completely zone Annie. Avoiding Q's is hard against a competent Kennen if you want to maintain good farm. When Kennen can eat a QW combo and heal it back up after revolver, he can just go ahead, eat it, and again zone Annie while she charges her stun.
Veigar completely gets decimated by Kennen. like, there is no debate on this point I don't ven know what to say if you don't believe me. But his stun CD point -> his stun is 20s CD at level 1. That alone tells you something. Serious question, how often have you actually played Kennen vs. Veigar from either side? Like even 2-3 games should be enough to get you to believe me zz.
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I've also been having a hard time with Kennen against Brand mid, any tips? Thanks!
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Buy boots, dodge skillshots, farm with Q, harass if he gets too aggressive, kill him if he's low. Pretty standard play vs. Brand. His E range nerf really hurt him, and Kennen has MS boost from E so you really shouldn't be getting hit by too many of his spells.
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you can also consider getting some cheap magic resist so his Ｗ hurt less even if you fail to dodge it.
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On December 22 2011 10:00 alokin wrote:
I've also been having a hard time with Kennen against Brand mid, any tips? Thanks!
stop trying to kill him.
throw Q to last hit
Kennen is generally bad against ppl who has rly long range and can hit kennen from behind creeps and can f you up if you try to rush him. I think against those ppl you should just be defensive.
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would it be worth it putting some points in magic res for masteries at all?
oh and also a question with kennen and masteries... considering he doesn't use mana i assume that the mana regen slot does not reflect his energy regen? cause right now i'm using 11/0/19
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On December 22 2011 14:50 alokin wrote:
would it be worth it putting some points in magic res for masteries at all?
oh and also a question with kennen and masteries... considering he doesn't use mana i assume that the mana regen slot does not reflect his energy regen? cause right now i'm using 11/0/19
i run very defensive mastery. 0 21 9
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Kennen's a douche to play against as Annie for me too
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On December 22 2011 15:31 evanthebouncy! wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 14:50 alokin wrote:
would it be worth it putting some points in magic res for masteries at all?
oh and also a question with kennen and masteries... considering he doesn't use mana i assume that the mana regen slot does not reflect his energy regen? cause right now i'm using 11/0/19 i run very defensive mastery. 0 21 9
0-22-8, full MR runes. Laugh >: D
Alternatively 21-0-9 or 21-9-0. Depends on the lane.
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On December 22 2011 08:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
OK now I know you don't know what you're talking about since both Veigar and Kassadin get demolished by Kennen. Veigar less so with buffs but it's still a very bad lane for him.
Out of curiosity, are we talking pre-700 -> 650 range nerf kass or post? Because post nerf, I agree, but IMO, kass lanes ok vs. kennen before that nerf.
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On December 22 2011 16:15 Nehsb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 08:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
OK now I know you don't know what you're talking about since both Veigar and Kassadin get demolished by Kennen. Veigar less so with buffs but it's still a very bad lane for him. Out of curiosity, are we talking pre-700 -> 650 range nerf kass or post? Because post nerf, I agree, but IMO, kass lanes ok vs. kennen before that nerf.
That nerf was not that impactful on the lane, Kennen had that lane on lockdown both pre and post nerf. More so post nerf ofc, but yeah...
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Just watched Saintvicious play Kennen solo top against a Akali I think it was, lol was pretty epic
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Any opinions on AD kennen?
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It's worse than AP kennen.
Ive been stomping ranked while I can...I feel like he is going to get nerfed somehow but I have no idea.
He can go mid or top and dominate.
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On January 24 2012 12:11 wei2coolman wrote:
Any opinions on AD kennen?
I've thought a bit about AD Kennen, and I guess I'll put them down and see what other people think about this. Keep in mind I'm by no means an experienced or high-Elo player. Also, I've never played or played against AD Kennen before. This is all theorycraft.
To me, it seems like AD Kennen is a cross between Caitlyn (early game harass and poor late-game steroid) and AD Jaina (CC and peeling).
During the laning phase, Kennen has some good harass. Kennen has 575 range, which outranges the two popular AD carries Sivir (500) and Graves (525) noticeably. Obviously it's not as much as Caitlyn's range, but it's probably enough to harass with. Additionally, his W proc+active is probably be easier to hit than Caitlyn's Q (or you just deny them for a long time while farming with Q), and energy regenerates much faster than mana. Kennen's E and stuns makes him hard to gank, much like Caitlyn's E and W abilities. Kennen also brings some CC to the table, although slightly less reliable pre-6 than AD Jaina's CC while creeps are around to block Q. Post-6, Kennen's ultimate stun + QW re-stun is a huge threat that other AD carries will have to play around.
Late game, Kennen's steroid (+80% AD as magic damage every 5 attacks) is probably slightly worse than or roughly comparable to Caitlyn's steroid (+50% auto damage every 6 attacks), since it's magic instead of physical and since it doesn't work with critical hits. However, his peel is comparable to Jaina's. Enemy anti-carries have to deal with a guaranteed 1-second stun from the ultimate, followed by another 0.5 second stun from Q and W procs/active. Even without AP, this deals a decent amount of magic damage: 210*3+235+185 = 1050 magic damage before resists from rank 5 Q, rank 5 W's active, and 3 shots of rank 3 R. It'll probably only be around 300-400 damage after resists, but that's a free auto-attack against the anti-carry. After the stuns, Kennen can run away with E. Kennen can't stay as far away from the fight as Caitlyn and definitely can't do as much auto-attack damage as the other AD carries with real steroid abilities, but he seems pretty hard to kill.
M5 probably had some team comp reasons for picking AD Kennen as well. Since their gameplan was so focused around the early game, Kennen's lack of a late-game steroid doesn't affect their strategy too much. Also, their team comp was sometimes light on CC. For instance, in the third game, their only CC besides Kennen was Skarner's Q and R, and Sona's R. A traditional AD carry might get jumped and killed with so little peel on the team. Finally, AD Kennen gives them the flexibility to run him on the top lane to exploit a bad matchup.
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Not necessarily. AD kennen has a decent steroid with his W. Is really hard to catch 'cause of his passive and E. Even as an AD his ultimate is still really useful, you just don't dive the entire enemy team; you use it more as a self-peel and disruption.
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On January 24 2012 12:38 Bladeorade wrote:
It's worse than AP kennen.
Ive been stomping ranked while I can...I feel like he is going to get nerfed somehow but I have no idea.
He can go mid or top and dominate.
I don't think that's a fair comparison an ap mid/solo top another is an AD carry.
It's only fair to compare to other AD carries.
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Comparing AD Kennen to AP Kennen isn't a fair comparison?
Why run AD Kennen when you can run AP? He probably has certain niches or matchups he works as AD which m5 knows how to exploit, but I can't see how running him AD is ever superior per se and especially not in solo Q.
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On January 25 2012 06:32 Bladeorade wrote:
Comparing AD Kennen to AP Kennen isn't a fair comparison?
Why run AD Kennen when you can run AP? He probably has certain niches or matchups he works as AD which m5 knows how to exploit, but I can't see how running him AD is ever superior per se and especially not in solo Q.
'Cause AD Kennen shits on certain AD carries in lane. You run him when you want to crush a lane because the other team is running something like Vayne or Graves. It's like saying that Atmogs GP is bad because Critplank GP does more damage.
AD Kennen also less team dependent then a lot of other AD carries due to his E, R, and passive allowing him to escape divers easily. I would agree that I think AP Kennen is probably better but if you know how to do AD Kennen and if it makes sense to run him (as in, you have a favorable lane) then go for it.
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On January 25 2012 06:32 Bladeorade wrote:
Comparing AD Kennen to AP Kennen isn't a fair comparison?
Why run AD Kennen when you can run AP? He probably has certain niches or matchups he works as AD which m5 knows how to exploit, but I can't see how running him AD is ever superior per se and especially not in solo Q.
Comparing AD kennen to AP kennen makes no sense at all. You either gonna pick AD kennen or another AD if you play AD. You wont pick AP kennen if you need an AD. So the discussion should be about AD kennen vs other ADs. AD kennen has good range, has some defense, a sick laneing phase, is highly mobile and has tons of CC, and on top of that you get some AoE to clear waves and do some additional damage in teamfights. In the other hand he doesn't scale as strong as the most played AD champs with a typical AD build.
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i just checked the values and it seems he has the best base attackspeed and per level attackspeed scaling in the game lol
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On January 25 2012 06:32 Bladeorade wrote:
Comparing AD Kennen to AP Kennen isn't a fair comparison?
Why run AD Kennen when you can run AP? He probably has certain niches or matchups he works as AD which m5 knows how to exploit, but I can't see how running him AD is ever superior per se and especially not in solo Q.
That's like trying to compare Annie to a Vayne, it don't work. Each are distinct roles.
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On January 25 2012 07:53 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 06:32 Bladeorade wrote:
Comparing AD Kennen to AP Kennen isn't a fair comparison?
Why run AD Kennen when you can run AP? He probably has certain niches or matchups he works as AD which m5 knows how to exploit, but I can't see how running him AD is ever superior per se and especially not in solo Q.
Comparing AD kennen to AP kennen makes no sense at all. You either gonna pick AD kennen or another AD if you play AD. You wont pick AP kennen if you need an AD. So the discussion should be about AD kennen vs other ADs. AD kennen has good range, has some defense, a sick laneing phase, is highly mobile and has tons of CC, and on top of that you get some AoE to clear waves and do some additional damage in teamfights. In the other hand he doesn't scale as strong as the most played AD champs with a typical AD build.
His big problem AD is that he doesn't have any sort of steroid unless W counts. His base AD is the same as Graves and it scales just as hard.
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On January 25 2012 09:37 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 07:53 clickrush wrote:On January 25 2012 06:32 Bladeorade wrote:
Comparing AD Kennen to AP Kennen isn't a fair comparison?
Why run AD Kennen when you can run AP? He probably has certain niches or matchups he works as AD which m5 knows how to exploit, but I can't see how running him AD is ever superior per se and especially not in solo Q.
Comparing AD kennen to AP kennen makes no sense at all. You either gonna pick AD kennen or another AD if you play AD. You wont pick AP kennen if you need an AD. So the discussion should be about AD kennen vs other ADs. AD kennen has good range, has some defense, a sick laneing phase, is highly mobile and has tons of CC, and on top of that you get some AoE to clear waves and do some additional damage in teamfights. In the other hand he doesn't scale as strong as the most played AD champs with a typical AD build. His big problem AD is that he doesn't have any sort of steroid unless W counts. His base AD is the same as Graves and it scales just as hard.
So in other words he's like Ashe, but instead of slows and an ulti as a stun he has an AoE stun in his ult and then some semi-stunlocks with a PD and his other skills. So basically he's an utility AD carry. I'd say he's an especially strong pick if the enemy team has like Akali or is based around diving the AD carry.
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So i've been fiddling around with AD kennen, I gotta say, he's pretty freaking stronk, and A LOT more fun than a lot of AD carries.
Since when I choose kennen, most people give me solo top, or mid. (usually top). I start longsword + 1 pot, into wriggles and boots.
From there I go IE, PD, BT (or LW). He's pretty strong, he does a lot of damage, and his utli and e makes him impossible to be ganked.
The one thing I was wondering was, if triforce would be any good on kennen?
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On January 25 2012 10:34 wei2coolman wrote:
So i've been fiddling around with AD kennen, I gotta say, he's pretty freaking stronk, and A LOT more fun than a lot of AD carries.
Since when I choose kennen, most people give me solo top, or mid. (usually top). I start longsword + 1 pot, into wriggles and boots.
From there I go IE, PD, BT (or LW). He's pretty strong, he does a lot of damage, and his utli and e makes him impossible to be ganked.
The one thing I was wondering was, if triforce would be any good on kennen?
starting longsword is pretty stupid tbh. if you want sustain start cloth5 or boots3. if you want damage take dblade. longsword + potion is one of the worst starts you can do.
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On January 25 2012 10:34 wei2coolman wrote:
So i've been fiddling around with AD kennen, I gotta say, he's pretty freaking stronk, and A LOT more fun than a lot of AD carries.
Since when I choose kennen, most people give me solo top, or mid. (usually top). I start longsword + 1 pot, into wriggles and boots.
From there I go IE, PD, BT (or LW). He's pretty strong, he does a lot of damage, and his utli and e makes him impossible to be ganked.
The one thing I was wondering was, if triforce would be any good on kennen?
I'm totally cool with mixing things up and sending your AD carry mid or top but honestly if you're gonna play Kennen and solo a lane you might as well play AP. Mostly cause AP Kennen compared to AD Kennen is a lot more damage and he can initiate extremely well.
You run AD Kennen to win your lane against enemy ADs. Unless you're running a weird like bruiser/support or AP carry/support bottom I don't see any reason to run AD Kennen in a solo lane.
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On January 25 2012 10:53 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 10:34 wei2coolman wrote:
So i've been fiddling around with AD kennen, I gotta say, he's pretty freaking stronk, and A LOT more fun than a lot of AD carries.
Since when I choose kennen, most people give me solo top, or mid. (usually top). I start longsword + 1 pot, into wriggles and boots.
From there I go IE, PD, BT (or LW). He's pretty strong, he does a lot of damage, and his utli and e makes him impossible to be ganked.
The one thing I was wondering was, if triforce would be any good on kennen? starting longsword is pretty stupid tbh. if you want sustain start cloth5 or boots3. if you want damage take dblade. longsword + potion is one of the worst starts you can do.
i go long sword because i can getaway from any ganks, and major damage, so i don't really die, and getting dblade slows down wriggles too much. I like boot3 in mid, but for top i feel safe with longsword pot.
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I'd just start with scepter if you want to rush wriggles, I feel longsword is silly.
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On January 25 2012 12:22 Shikyo wrote:
I'd just start with scepter if you want to rush wriggles, I feel longsword is silly.
Well I'm still trying out openings, I'll definitely try that.
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Is this jungle Kennen or something? Opening vamp scepter in lane is just asking to get crushed.
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On January 25 2012 12:37 starfries wrote:
Is this jungle Kennen or something? Opening vamp scepter in lane is just asking to get crushed.
hmm, why do you say this?
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On January 25 2012 06:41 overt wrote:
AD Kennen also less team dependent then a lot of other AD carries due to his E, R, and passive allowing him to escape divers easily.
This x1000. In solo queue, it's a real gamble as to whether your team will peel for you - it's burnt me out on Kog'maw and increased my Tristana play; if you're just looking to get to a lategame right-click-on-shit carry position while still having escapes/self-peels/utility, you can do a lot worse than Kennen (AD LeBlanc is particularly good for repositioning/escapes if your team let you get away with it, heh).
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AD kennen's been viable for such a long time. Nobody would listen to me thought, even when I play him in 1700 elo games. Huehuehue.
Original Message From NeoIllusions: You can play AD Kennen all you want but it's never seen the light of day in a tournament play. My comment was geared towards the lack of Corki players since the last patch since he got nerfed. You then editing my comment for laughs isn't exactly amusing. Show nested quote +Original Message From Soloside: Original Message From NeoIllusions:
Stop trolling. Consider this a courtesy warning. i honestly don't know why people are so against ad kennen, but w/e kays kay.
From a year ago.
 Told ya Neo.
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On January 25 2012 12:51 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 12:37 starfries wrote:
Is this jungle Kennen or something? Opening vamp scepter in lane is just asking to get crushed. hmm, why do you say this?
potions give you a lot more sustain, and vamp scepter makes you vulnerable to being bursted down. consider the alternatives: cloth 5 gives you that armor, dshield/dblade gives you a health buffer, boots let you kite a lot harder. also, potions don't require you to push the lane, you can use them if you get zoned, you can use them while running away, etc. they're a lot more versatile than the pure sustain you get from vamp scepter.
and also, Kennen E is good, but it's not as much of a get-out-of-jail free card as you think unless the other lane/jungle have no pressure at all. vamp scepter is probably one of the worst items you can have while you're getting ganked.
On January 25 2012 18:40 Haasts wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 06:41 overt wrote:
AD Kennen also less team dependent then a lot of other AD carries due to his E, R, and passive allowing him to escape divers easily. This x1000. In solo queue, it's a real gamble as to whether your team will peel for you - it's burnt me out on Kog'maw and increased my Tristana play; if you're just looking to get to a lategame right-click-on-shit carry position while still having escapes/self-peels/utility, you can do a lot worse than Kennen (AD LeBlanc is particularly good for repositioning/escapes if your team let you get away with it, heh).
I love AD Leblanc, but people keep telling me it's a troll build
it's basically impossible to dive her with only one person and often with two as well.
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How does Kennen fare against Akali? And what counters him at solo top?
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On February 01 2012 03:04 Zhiroo wrote:
How does Kennen fare against Akali? And what counters him at solo top?
If you manage to bully her enough early on, you should be able to bully her around a bit. At a certain point, you'll both have revolvers and it usually emerges into a farmfest that's decided by jungle ganks. Also, nothing counters Kennen in lane. Infinity range farm ftw.
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Aight TL, I'm about to buy Kennen and I need some input from you guys.
I think I'm fine for items and I think I understand how to lane him as AD.
MASTERIES AND RUNES FOR AP KENNEN.
When and vs what do I want offense/defense/utility?
Is there any matchup where energy runes / spellvamp quints help a LOT or is this stuff rather gimmicky?
The generic game plan is Q people in the face and use E+W proc to get a stun+auto+run away combo off, is that correct? Any other stuff that should be included in any fresh newb Kennens arsenal?
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Baa?21242 Posts
Last hit until you have a W charge, run up and auto them + W for damage. They either stay there and eat the damage or try to run away and get zoned. Try to save a charged up auto attack and last hit with Q if possible to keep the threat and make them play scared.
Don't be afraid to E up to them if they use spells to farm.
21-9-0 is pretty good. AP/Mpen/HP per level for quint red yellow. Pretty flexible on blues, MR or AP/lvl are both ok imo.
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On February 03 2012 13:20 r.Evo wrote:
Aight TL, I'm about to buy Kennen and I need some input from you guys.
I think I'm fine for items and I think I understand how to lane him as AD.
MASTERIES AND RUNES FOR AP KENNEN.
When and vs what do I want offense/defense/utility?
Is there any matchup where energy runes / spellvamp quints help a LOT or is this stuff rather gimmicky?
The generic game plan is Q people in the face and use E+W proc to get a stun+auto+run away combo off, is that correct? Any other stuff that should be included in any fresh newb Kennens arsenal?
21-9-0, spam Q to harrass or farm if having trouble, when you hit 6 you combo intelligently for double or triple stun utilizing the ulti and kill them with ignite, repeat every time ulti is up.
Wota into rylai or deathcap depending on need, hourglass is nice as well, boots are sorc. Starting item boots imo.
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Baa?21242 Posts
Merc treads aren't bad either TBH. You're gonna be charging in to initiate a lot and sitting in the middle of the team, extra resistances + soaking up cc is always nice, especially since WotA Boots and Rylais cost a lot and you won't have Hourglass when the teamfights first start breaking out.
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And btw jax can dodge parrrley even though earlier in this thread you guys said he cant -_- annoying that you guys keep postin gstuff you havent tested
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Hmm... what makes the 21 9 0 strong compared to the 9 0 21 ego ignatio usually seems to use?
What situations are there for 21 def (besides laning vs annie csheep =D)?
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On February 03 2012 13:47 Shikyo wrote:
And btw jax can dodge parrrley even though earlier in this thread you guys said he cant -_- annoying that you guys keep postin gstuff you havent tested
wrong thread :O
does ego still go 21 in utility after the masteries change? util tree seems very inferior to offense on kennen imo
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i think he really likes the spell vamp in util combined with spell vamp quints
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United States37500 Posts
On February 03 2012 13:53 r.Evo wrote:
Hmm... what makes the 21 9 0 strong compared to the 9 0 21 ego ignatio usually seems to use?
What situations are there for 21 def (besides laning vs annie csheep =D)?
I play Kennen top, like I do most my APs and I spec 21 Off.
Ego's play style benefits greatly in going mid. He opens Shield and wants to sustain forever (Spell Vamp Quints + Mastery). Because of his high Spell Vamp, even before Revolver, he can actually trade burst for burst vs other AP Casters. Lane sustain and when enemy mid is forced to back (cause hey, only nubs use mana), Ego goes to another lane and Ulti ganks for kills, then returns back to lane with a WotA, huehue.
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Another thing about 9/0/21 is that he likes to trade Flashes, so that the next time his Flash comes up, it's a free kill.
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On February 03 2012 14:32 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 13:53 r.Evo wrote:
Hmm... what makes the 21 9 0 strong compared to the 9 0 21 ego ignatio usually seems to use?
What situations are there for 21 def (besides laning vs annie csheep =D)? I play Kennen top, like I do most my APs and I spec 21 Off. Ego's play style benefits greatly in going mid. He opens Shield and wants to sustain forever (Spell Vamp Quints + Mastery). Because of his high Spell Vamp, even before Revolver, he can actually trade burst for burst vs other AP Casters. Lane sustain and when enemy mid is forced to back (cause hey, only nubs use mana), Ego goes to another lane and Ulti ganks for kills, then returns back to lane with a WotA, huehue.
What do you open top for items? I really agree with Ego with Kennen not needing boots at all.
Basicly that'd mean DShield or Cloth+5 vs AD and I dno if theres a single cloth item Kennen would like.
What do you open with vs AP top? null magic+2? =D
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United States37500 Posts
On February 04 2012 15:10 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 14:32 NeoIllusions wrote:On February 03 2012 13:53 r.Evo wrote:
Hmm... what makes the 21 9 0 strong compared to the 9 0 21 ego ignatio usually seems to use?
What situations are there for 21 def (besides laning vs annie csheep =D)? I play Kennen top, like I do most my APs and I spec 21 Off. Ego's play style benefits greatly in going mid. He opens Shield and wants to sustain forever (Spell Vamp Quints + Mastery). Because of his high Spell Vamp, even before Revolver, he can actually trade burst for burst vs other AP Casters. Lane sustain and when enemy mid is forced to back (cause hey, only nubs use mana), Ego goes to another lane and Ulti ganks for kills, then returns back to lane with a WotA, huehue. What do you open top for items? I really agree with Ego with Kennen not needing boots at all. Basicly that'd mean DShield or Cloth+5 vs AD and I dno if theres a single cloth item Kennen would like. What do you open with vs AP top? null magic+2? =D
I open Boots + 3 pretty much every time. I stick to my own skills for top lane, as opposed to spec'ing vs who I'm facing (what Smash does with Resist Quints). Both style has its virtues: if I get farm, I'll be stronger mid/late game. Smash definitely has a better time in lane, if not just flat out winning it.
vs AP, I'd still open Boots. And from there it depends who I'm against. Against someone like LeBlanc, I'd straight rush Negatron, cause that's simply what I do vs her. Against Swain, I would still last hit farm with Q until 1200, then start aggro once I have spell vamp. It's situational. Generic answer, sry.
NMM + 2 seems ok but I have never seen it over the past year. No idea why it's not a viable opening. I personally have no experience going NMM first.
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How do you guys deal with Pantheon?
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He can't do much against your Q range, can he? I guess if you start with cloth+5, and/or armor runes and 9 defense, you can just farm from afar until you can buy a chain vest then ignore him (and you'll use it if you want to go Zhonya anyway).
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So I JUST bought Kennen the other day and got like 3-4 games in on him pre-nerf but I played him again today and I REALLY felt it. There were many times when I wanted a Shuriken and it was still cooling down. Frustration.
Is this what you guy have found as well? Or just an anomaly?
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I've been thinking about changing my build on Kennen a bit.
I could go entirely glass cannon (except for hourglass which is core) or I could go for a mix of AP and tankiness. So my question is how viable would this build be?
Sorc boots
hourglass
wota/revolver (dont like running wota unless theres a mage mid/top, comments?)
Rylai's
Abyssal Scepter
last item, probably would be DC.
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United States37500 Posts
Your final build is more or less what I'd end up with. I'd skip Abyssal for QSS or Void Staff. Those are better use of a slot imo.
If you're top Kennen (like how I play him), you're going to have an AP mid anyways, so WotA is my first item.
Zhonya's active means you'll survive the initial salvo of spells in a team fight and have EWQ back up again to spell vamp back to health.
Sorc, WotA, Zhonya's core imo.
From here, decide if you need more more AP (Deathcap), more MPen because enemy is stacking MR (Void Staff), need faster CC (Rylai's) or need to peel (QSS).
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I'm kinda disappointed kennen got nerfed actually. I always saw him as the manaless dick in lane, and having an extra second between throws is really going to weaken my perception on his uniqueness :-(
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On February 16 2012 07:17 NeoIllusions wrote:
Your final build is more or less what I'd end up with. I'd skip Abyssal for QSS or Void Staff. Those are better use of a slot imo.
If you're top Kennen (like how I play him), you're going to have an AP mid anyways, so WotA is my first item.
Zhonya's active means you'll survive the initial salvo of spells in a team fight and have EWQ back up again to spell vamp back to health.
Sorc, WotA, Zhonya's core imo.
From here, decide if you need more more AP (Deathcap), more MPen because enemy is stacking MR (Void Staff), need faster CC (Rylai's) or need to peel (QSS).
^^ This.
Imo Zhonyas has far more importance in team fights than Rylais.
Whilst Rylais may be great for small skirmishes/unorganized teams, it does not mean shit if you get insta-gibbed in a mid-game team fight.
edit: I've not played Kennen since the cooldown increase on his Q, would love to hear some input from people.
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When I play him, I tend to go wota>Rylai's>Zhonya's>DC.
I've just been thinking it might be cool to add a bit of tankiness to you by building some MR, AP, and reducing their MR all at once. I don't understand why Abyssal Scepter isn't used more. Its a pretty good item for what it does and its cost.
@Kennen nerf, it doesn't seem too noticeable. iirc, they increased it by 1 second, so its what, 7 seconds instead of 6 now at lvl 1? Played against a Kat mid the other day, and I just last hit with it for a lot of the laning phase (never played against Kat mid, so not sure how the matchup should turn out) and still out cs'd her. She was kinda bad though.
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Seems like Vlad counterpicks Kennen in laning phase.
He can just sit behind creeps and Q you if you try to last hit with anything other than Q, and since Q has such a long cooldown at first few levels, you're going to miss CS. W does not trade well with Vlad's Q. Once you both get a few levels and Vlad has WotA, he can either 1) tank some of your Qs so you miss CS or 2) push the lane to your tower constantly, making you miss tons of last hits.
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What's vlad going to do, say, at level 3, when you have your passive up. You hit him once, because otherwise you'll zone him forever. Now he can either trade with you, where you get q/w/e (not nec in that order) meaning a stun and autoattack damage, depending on creep positions etc or back off until w wears off.
Also you can auto him 2 times when he Qs you if you try to last hit and you can just last hit with q while autoing him twice.
I won't say a definite loss in vlad because I don't have enough experience with this matchup but I would think Kennen has the advantage.
A lane's advantage/disadvatange can and do last longer than level 1, if that's what you're implying, or you are thinking way to simplistically for theorycrafting. IIRC vlad Q goes 12/10/8/6/4 while Kennen Q goes 8/7/6/5/4 post patch as well. Vlad will have trouble getting to levels where he can easy push with q/e with revolver.
If it's top lane Kennen wins unless you bait with jungler gank. Even after Kennen can match.
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Just played Kennen tonight for the first time. Mostly played mid because top always seems to be taken. I must say that his ultimate feels so satisfying to use. There's just a visceral amazing feel to it. I loved it.
My question is mostly deciding between MRes or AP/lvl blues. I don't have many rune pages, so I'm using MPen reds, AP quints, armor yellows, and AP/lvl blues. Personally I feel like this gives me great damage. If you could only pick one page for both top and mid Kennen, which would you pick? Is it just preference?
I'm running the 21/9/0, not the Ego style (obviously not because of my runes, but whatever)
EDIT: I've read through the last few pages of the thread, but I couldn't sense if there was much of a consensus between both top and mid runes.
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United States37500 Posts
Flat MR or AP/Level, it's personal preference.
I prefer Flat MR.
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On February 16 2012 08:45 Wala.Revolution wrote:
What's vlad going to do, say, at level 3, when you have your passive up. You hit him once, because otherwise you'll zone him forever. Now he can either trade with you, where you get q/w/e (not nec in that order) meaning a stun and autoattack damage, depending on creep positions etc or back off until w wears off.
Also you can auto him 2 times when he Qs you if you try to last hit and you can just last hit with q while autoing him twice.
I won't say a definite loss in vlad because I don't have enough experience with this matchup but I would think Kennen has the advantage.
A lane's advantage/disadvatange can and do last longer than level 1, if that's what you're implying, or you are thinking way to simplistically for theorycrafting. IIRC vlad Q goes 12/10/8/6/4 while Kennen Q goes 8/7/6/5/4 post patch as well. Vlad will have trouble getting to levels where he can easy push with q/e with revolver.
If it's top lane Kennen wins unless you bait with jungler gank. Even after Kennen can match.
Kennen has an advantage early game but it's impossible to deter a Vlad from reaching lane god mode without being able to freely use E offensively. Unless your opponent has no jungler, you're not going to be lightning rushiing all over the place. I wouldn't say Vlad is a counter to Kennen, but Vlad will win the lane through attrition.
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So far I've been doing good against the non-pushing champs as Kennen. However, the "push-all-day" champs are giving me a lot of trouble because I'm not getting good jungle support. This Mordekaiser served me my lunch because he just would push to tower and stealth wraiths, and no amount of telling the jungle was changing anything. I tried to get my farm in when I could but that Morde just hard carried against us.
Then I played against Singed, and I totally dominated him early. Then the jungler came on a botched gank and we fed them two kills. That pretty much gave him enough gold to set it up so that he could just poison a whole wave and I couldn't do anything about it. Sat under my turret the whole game and the jungler wouldn't come to relieve the pressure and when he did Singed would just run away.
I know I have a lot to learn, but I'm just curious how you guys play Kennen against strong pushing? I'm not sure how to respond. But if I play a more traditional AP or top, then I tend to do really really well against them. Any help or vids would be greatly appreciated. I love Kennen and want to make him one of my mains.
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You're suppose to crush them in lane before they get to a point where they can push super hard. By that point, ideally you have at least the farm you need that if your jungler comes along you just kill them.
Obviously this doesn't work if you don't farm properly at the start or if you feed them 2 kills in lane.
What I'm saying is that if you just keep what you're doing, but better, you won't have to worry too much about getting pushed to death.
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On February 24 2012 12:59 Juicyfruit wrote:
You're suppose to crush them in lane before they get to a point where they can push super hard. By that point, ideally you have at least the farm you need that if your jungler comes along you just kill them.
Obviously this doesn't work if you don't farm properly at the start or if you feed them 2 kills in lane.
What I'm saying is that if you just keep what you're doing, but better, you won't have to worry too much about getting pushed to death.
Thanks, that's fair advice. I realize I'm still at an incredibly early stage with learning this champion. I need to land more Q's in traffic and learn where to position. I don't think I zoned out Singed early enough in our game. I realized too late that I had way more latitude to position wherever I wanted to early game. I'm just coming from playing mostly AD/Support/Jungle, so I just don't have the feel for a lot of top or mid matchups.
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So, I don't consider myself a great Kennen player, but good enough to hold my own, usually.
Last night, however, I got my shit rocked by a Viktor. He just stood in minions so I could never land a Q, would Q me when I went in to autos, poked at me hard with Death Ray, and if I went in for Lightning Rush or Ult, he'd just drop his stun and ult on me and walk away. I died twice and just started farming under tower, nothing I could really do to stop him.
Was this me playing badly or is Viktor a champ Kennen has trouble with?
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On February 29 2012 03:22 Requizen wrote:
So, I don't consider myself a great Kennen player, but good enough to hold my own, usually.
Last night, however, I got my shit rocked by a Viktor. He just stood in minions so I could never land a Q, would Q me when I went in to autos, poked at me hard with Death Ray, and if I went in for Lightning Rush or Ult, he'd just drop his stun and ult on me and walk away. I died twice and just started farming under tower, nothing I could really do to stop him.
Was this me playing badly or is Viktor a champ Kennen has trouble with?
Being a fairly veteran kennen player at this point in time. I think you might have just been playing badly. Kennen shouldn't really have problems with that kind of hero if you just wait for ganks or out farm them in mid. Your utility shoots up a lot even if you don't go for kills.
I realize league is a much easier game than HoN/DotA(2), but going for 1v1 mid kills isn't always necessary. Sometimes just getting your cs up and not dying is way more potent when you go into the mid/late game than attempting to get a kill and ending up dying in the process.
Just something to consider.
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On February 29 2012 03:46 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 03:22 Requizen wrote:
So, I don't consider myself a great Kennen player, but good enough to hold my own, usually.
Last night, however, I got my shit rocked by a Viktor. He just stood in minions so I could never land a Q, would Q me when I went in to autos, poked at me hard with Death Ray, and if I went in for Lightning Rush or Ult, he'd just drop his stun and ult on me and walk away. I died twice and just started farming under tower, nothing I could really do to stop him.
Was this me playing badly or is Viktor a champ Kennen has trouble with? Being a fairly veteran kennen player at this point in time. I think you might have just been playing badly. Kennen shouldn't really have problems with that kind of hero if you just wait for ganks or out farm them in mid. Your utility shoots up a lot even if you don't go for kills. I realize league is a much easier game than HoN/DotA(2), but going for 1v1 mid kills isn't always necessary. Sometimes just getting your cs up and not dying is way more potent when you go into the mid/late game than attempting to get a kill and ending up dying in the process. Just something to consider.
True, I was probably playing too aggressively. Once I got WotA, I was just passive farming, but I just felt pressured very hard by his damage and kill potential. I'm not really used to playing passively.
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On February 29 2012 03:22 Requizen wrote:
So, I don't consider myself a great Kennen player, but good enough to hold my own, usually.
Last night, however, I got my shit rocked by a Viktor. He just stood in minions so I could never land a Q, would Q me when I went in to autos, poked at me hard with Death Ray, and if I went in for Lightning Rush or Ult, he'd just drop his stun and ult on me and walk away. I died twice and just started farming under tower, nothing I could really do to stop him.
Was this me playing badly or is Viktor a champ Kennen has trouble with?
viktor not grat vs kennen, just wait out his long dray CD and punish him for missing it, once you get wota you drastically outsustain him so just harass
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So I played Kennen vs Shen top just now.
Went pretty well, he really can't do much to you. VB has awful range and he should lose trades if you Q+W him. Got a kill on him and was out CS'ing him. Really helps to just shove the lane on him, since he really can't last hit under tower.
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Played Olaf vs Kennen twice (damn those Nidalee/Lux/Kennen picks, who do they send where? @_@). The first one wasn't very good, the second one had his jungler camp me till I died (and then my mid came and pushed all the way to his tower), but I somehow managed to farm as they seemed to fear a E to the face whenever they'd get too close.
Shuriken last hit > Axe last hit tho. And that AA range. Never had Kennen(s) so annoying, dunno if it's because Olaf has really short range or because they go mid most often.
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I feel like Olaf should win or draw vs Kennen top so long as you control the creep wave properly, and in this case, Olaf can control the wave however he pleases since Kennen can't push (if he tries to push with E, kindly remind him why it's a bad idea). Since you'll mostly be trying to last hit while Kennen will be pressed to harass, his wave will build up, in which case you need to just use undertow on the appropriate number of creeps to rebalance the minion wave before it gets too big. Olaf wants the lane to be frozen as much as possible, since with a healthy amount of your own minions you really don't have to worry at all about shuriken harass.
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When do you guys run AD reds/quints? I figured that in lanes like Kennen vs Nasus or Kennen vs Poppy, where they can't do anything to you 1-4 it's way better than AP/move speed. Thoughts?
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On February 29 2012 03:55 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 03:22 Requizen wrote:
So, I don't consider myself a great Kennen player, but good enough to hold my own, usually.
Last night, however, I got my shit rocked by a Viktor. He just stood in minions so I could never land a Q, would Q me when I went in to autos, poked at me hard with Death Ray, and if I went in for Lightning Rush or Ult, he'd just drop his stun and ult on me and walk away. I died twice and just started farming under tower, nothing I could really do to stop him.
Was this me playing badly or is Viktor a champ Kennen has trouble with? viktor not grat vs kennen, just wait out his long dray CD and punish him for missing it, once you get wota you drastically outsustain him so just harass
I changed my mind, viktor is very good vs kennen. As kennen you just have to get that revolver/WOTA as fast as you possibly can and dodge as many lazers as you can while just outsustaining him.
If you get a good gank Viktor goes down pretty easy with ult, but just watch the fuck out for that burst and dont try to harass him with lighting rush unless you know hes on full CD.
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On April 12 2012 18:13 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote:
When do you guys run AD reds/quints? I figured that in lanes like Kennen vs Nasus or Kennen vs Poppy, where they can't do anything to you 1-4 it's way better than AP/move speed. Thoughts?
Kennen is an AP carry, having more AD on him might make you a little stronger for the first few levels but will fall off so much after that it's not worth it.
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On April 12 2012 18:13 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote:
When do you guys run AD reds/quints? I figured that in lanes like Kennen vs Nasus or Kennen vs Poppy, where they can't do anything to you 1-4 it's way better than AP/move speed. Thoughts?
I wouldn't say its way better. But I have seen 2k player run AD runes on Kennen. He was against GP that match I think. But I would never do that. Even though you have a decent autoattack as Kennen, you will mostly not be doing any autoattacks. If you would, you would see people go Gunblade instead of WotA. Just run him pure AP/magic pen and that should most likely give you the best results.
I think the reason people ran AD on him is because people generally get a lot of MR early game from runes and that lowers his harass. With a stronger auto attack that they dont have defensive specs for, he should be able to win any kind of match up that he is put up with.
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On April 13 2012 05:02 Strykemard wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 18:13 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote:
When do you guys run AD reds/quints? I figured that in lanes like Kennen vs Nasus or Kennen vs Poppy, where they can't do anything to you 1-4 it's way better than AP/move speed. Thoughts? I wouldn't say its way better. But I have seen 2k player run AD runes on Kennen. He was against GP that match I think. But I would never do that. Even though you have a decent autoattack as Kennen, you will mostly not be doing any autoattacks. If you would, you would see people go Gunblade instead of WotA. Just run him pure AP/magic pen and that should most likely give you the best results. I think the reason people ran AD on him is because people generally get a lot of MR early game from runes and that lowers his harass. With a stronger auto attack that they dont have defensive specs for, he should be able to win any kind of match up that he is put up with.
If you arent autoing people in lane as kennen, you are playing him very wrong, especially every 5th attack.
I would run AD in any lane I thought I'd be safe AAing alot and thought it could make a difference in pushing them out of lane. Yes, later in the game it wont be useful, but the magic pen from reds wont be doing much either (its 7% more damage vs a target with 30MR). If the AD allows you to zone them earlier and farce them back it will translate be a much greater advantage goldwise and itemwise.
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How do you guys close out games with Kennen? It seems that no matter how fed I get (was 7-1 with 192cs at 25 mins last game), I just seem to become pretty useless after the midgame. Like if I rush in to ult, I get focussed and I die. Otherwise I don't do that much damage. Halp?
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On April 21 2012 18:07 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote:
How do you guys close out games with Kennen? It seems that no matter how fed I get (was 7-1 with 192cs at 25 mins last game), I just seem to become pretty useless after the midgame. Like if I rush in to ult, I get focussed and I die. Otherwise I don't do that much damage. Halp?
Zhonyas.
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Haha yea, there is no hero in the game on whom zhonya works better.
Should be your core, it is usally my first item after wota.
Anways i think there is no stronger ap champion in game late game if no one can push you out of team fight.
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Does anyone know exactly how Wingsofdeathx sets up his top lane Kennen? From watching it in the Solomid tourney over the weekend, it looks like he runs AD runes + boots into DBlade openings for lane dominance, but transitions to AP for mid/lategame teamfighting via items and masteries. Anyone know his exact setup or build order? Can't remember what AP items he bought at all, I'm afraid.
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Is kennen supposed to beat vlad pre-revolver?
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Vlad has the advantage in lane but can go kennen's way if he lands a bit too many shurikens or vlad uses too many skills on the creep wave.
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On April 21 2012 18:34 Makavw wrote:
Haha yea, there is no hero in the game on whom zhonya works better.
Should be your core, it is usally my first item after wota.
Anways i think there is no stronger ap champion in game late game if no one can push you out of team fight.
I think rushing Zhonya's isn't really that good on Kennen, I generally prefer Rylai's after wota. (There are definitely specific situations where Zhonya's first might be better)
Rylai's lets you kite people hard and makes it even harder from them to escape, and it's much more reliable because there is no downtime (unlike Zhonya's active). It's also very helpful when running from small skirmishes. I usually get Zhonya's soon after Rylai's.
As for your fist claim, I'd argue that Zhonya's works better on Morgana and that she's also a stronger ap champion in late game team fights if you get your ult+Zhonya's off in the midst of them.
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Rylais is overrated on Kennen imho. It's a decent item but definitely less core than zhonya/deathcap. Kennen is plenty-strong as a stand-alone champion and he definitely doesn't need the rylai slow to fight 1v1 (or let's face it, the energy capacity to abuse the crap out of it anyways).
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Kennen is free this week!
Yes yes yes!
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Loved the champ, loved his damage, although i tend to get a bit nervous on teamfights, tend to screw up and lose concentration, i was so hyped after getting hourglass that i flashed first into the enemy team that was doing baron and ulted, the result: died, but did TONS OF DAMAGE and had fun assisting my team!
Need to relax more when playing this kind of champs (energy usage mostly) i tend to lose focus and lose early, i have a supportive mind, maybe i should go back to taric/soraka/janna :'c.
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On May 19 2012 14:12 iGrok wrote:Update on ALL KENNEN: Level 7. Finally figured out how to play him. Only 1 negative K/D in my match history, which was a 13/15/15 game with 2 Ragequits on my team . There are so many leavers this low, holy shit. But not all is despair! Check it out, some people down here are actually manner! I've won 4 of my last five. Its easy to win lanes once I realized to just use w to trade through minions (proc W, attack enemy mid, W). Energy lets me just spam it like a dick. I'm considering leveling R>W>Q>E instead of R>Q>W>E. Thoughts?
w max crushes melees and a lot of short ranged heroes. if you play him toplane you should be maxing w almost every time, which is why it hurts me to watch dyrus and hotshot playing kennen and maxing q every fucking game. im like wtf you doinggggg zzz. i only see wings maxing w and crushing his lane every time. probably because he played with ego ignaxio so much.
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So how the hell do you lane vs Teemo?
Guy is so damn annoying. Probably didn't help that tool Shaco ganked me at level 2 and forced me to flash.
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last time i laned vs teemo i destroyed him he is annoying but just use your w to harass etc then wait till blind over then go in.
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I bought kennen to play mid. I already have two tops that I like. Kennen wouldn't be my third choice top either.
One thing I don't get though is how you lane against pushers. I laned against a morgana yesterday who was pretty bad, getting less cs than me, but still pushed well. Each lane I just tried to E through the minion wave, dodge a binding, and hit my maxed W to damage the minions and keep the lane from going into tower.
I hate it when things go to tower because although it's easier for me to get a kill with a gank, I can't leave tower or I lose experience and gold, and since it's pushed to tower, I have a hard time csing. Then morgana can walk back every ten seconds and I won't know if she's ganking bot without two wards mid.
Also it'd be impossible to clear lanes like this against sion because of point and click stun
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On May 31 2012 15:57 Cloud9157 wrote:
So how the hell do you lane vs Teemo?
Guy is so damn annoying. Probably didn't help that tool Shaco ganked me at level 2 and forced me to flash.
Teemo is really squishy before he gets his phage. What you want to do is harass him down to ~75% at level 5 and push the wave slightly so you hit 6 before him. The moment you level your ultimate either flash and E or walk into the bush, get close, E, ulti, and hit ignite. Once teemo's stunned, throw a shuriken and then right click him to tower. He will die.
On July 13 2012 07:24 obesechicken13 wrote:
I bought kennen to play mid. I already have two tops that I like. Kennen wouldn't be my third choice top either.
One thing I don't get though is how you lane against pushers. I laned against a morgana yesterday who was pretty bad, getting less cs than me, but still pushed well. Each lane I just tried to E through the minion wave, dodge a binding, and hit my maxed W to damage the minions and keep the lane from going into tower.
I hate it when things go to tower because although it's easier for me to get a kill with a gank, I can't leave tower or I lose experience and gold, and since it's pushed to tower, I have a hard time csing. Then morgana can walk back every ten seconds and I won't know if she's ganking bot without two wards mid.
Also it'd be impossible to clear lanes like this against sion because of point and click stun
With kennen, it's really hard to deal with heavy pushers like morgana and orianna with blue buff. Once you get your revolver, tank the wave outside of tower or last hit better under tower. Your advantage is that lightning rush gets you to other lanes really fast if you see them moving. Until you have enough AP that an autoattack+E+W one shots the wave, you're going to have trouble keeping up with them if they do push.
What I've seen on reginald/froggen's streams when they play kennen against the skillshot pushers is abuse kennen's speed to play aggressively. Hit E, run at them, hit them with a Q+W and back out. Unless you get hit by the binding, you'll win the trade.
Against Sion, you either have to eat the stun and harass him after the shield blows or blow the shield. Generally, early-mid game, a Q+W is enough to pop the shield.
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On July 13 2012 07:43 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 15:57 Cloud9157 wrote:
So how the hell do you lane vs Teemo?
Guy is so damn annoying. Probably didn't help that tool Shaco ganked me at level 2 and forced me to flash. Teemo is really squishy before he gets his phage. What you want to do is harass him down to ~75% at level 5 and push the wave slightly so you hit 6 before him. The moment you level your ultimate either flash and E or walk into the bush, get close, E, ulti, and hit ignite. Once teemo's stunned, throw a shuriken and then right click him to tower. He will die. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:24 obesechicken13 wrote:
I bought kennen to play mid. I already have two tops that I like. Kennen wouldn't be my third choice top either.
One thing I don't get though is how you lane against pushers. I laned against a morgana yesterday who was pretty bad, getting less cs than me, but still pushed well. Each lane I just tried to E through the minion wave, dodge a binding, and hit my maxed W to damage the minions and keep the lane from going into tower.
I hate it when things go to tower because although it's easier for me to get a kill with a gank, I can't leave tower or I lose experience and gold, and since it's pushed to tower, I have a hard time csing. Then morgana can walk back every ten seconds and I won't know if she's ganking bot without two wards mid.
Also it'd be impossible to clear lanes like this against sion because of point and click stun With kennen, it's really hard to deal with heavy pushers like morgana and orianna with blue buff. Once you get your revolver, tank the wave outside of tower or last hit better under tower. Your advantage is that lightning rush gets you to other lanes really fast if you see them moving. Until you have enough AP that an autoattack+E+W one shots the wave, you're going to have trouble keeping up with them if they do push. What I've seen on reginald/froggen's streams when they play kennen against the skillshot pushers is abuse kennen's speed to play aggressively. Hit E, run at them, hit them with a Q+W and back out. Unless you get hit by the binding, you'll win the trade. Against Sion, you either have to eat the stun and harass him after the shield blows or blow the shield. Generally, early-mid game, a Q+W is enough to pop the shield.
It's morg. How do I hurt her and make it stick?
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Is running energy regen seals in any way standard, or is Ignaxio just really good?
Also, are there any guides that have been released/updated since the nerfs to Kennen (specifically the range nerf)? Solomid seems to only have guides that are more 150+ days old.
ETA: I really like Haunting Guise early on Kennen if I get a little ahead. Any thoughts on HG as it relates to [before/after/never build this item] Hextech Revolver?
Thanks!
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I think it's pretty standard. And I don't think he's changed much just the meta. The range nerf is only thing and it's not that much of a deal.
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Is Kennen still played often? I remember seeing him a lot about half a year ago when I played the most. Just came back to the game and I haven't seen him in a single pro match and it's been like a week or two straight of watching them D:
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So with the overhaul of masteries, I've just been messing around with them. I have speculated that on Kennen, running a 9/0/21 in certain situations has some potential. I know Ignaxio was famous for his own 9/0/21 mastery setup on Kennen, so I wondered if it would be possible for him to do the same thing in S3.
Anyway, I like it just looking at it. You get the typical first few points in utility(movement speed, improved recall, and reduced cd on flash). Next work into 3% spell vamp+life steal and an extra 25 gold to start amp tome+2 pots. Eventually you'll want to grab pickpocket, the cdr, and the 3% movement speed.
I base this around the change to Wota, where they're putting a kage's in the recipe cost. Since you went amp tome first, you can turn it into a pick or revolver, depending on how well you're doing. With the Kage's+picpocket(which is really easy since you AA a lot as Kennen top) you could say you are going "gp/10" Kennen. Also, you could probably get away with running an armor/mr quint or two depending on your lane, since you start with +20 ap.
I would run 9/0/21 vs a Garen or Udyr top pretty much. Lanes where you win big would make this setup silly I feel.
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Starting only 2 pots seems like a massive liability in all circumstances. Even if you're not against a bully, god forbid the jungler shows up in your lane and chunks you - even if he doesn't burn any summoners, you're pretty much fucked.
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You'd still have the spell vamp+life steal, albeit that isn't a lot of sustain compared to actual champs with sustain. Its also pretty hard to hurt Kennen, since hes impossible to catch and he stuns. If the jungler is someone like Maokai though, I could see where it hurts a bit.
You can still go something else if you want. Could be 5 pots+ward instead. iunno what you would start on Kennen in all honesty though. Don't like flask on champs that don't have mana.
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Why not put points into CDR (Flash important for initiations) and Awareness instead of gp5 (gives his already potent all-in a better chance to be performed at a level advantage, also allows to hit 2 faster if you want to try and get a stun off while they're still level 1—assuming WE or WQ start, I dunno how Kennen skills against ranged champs actually)?
Since WotA will change in the same patch as the flask, boots+3 opening will probably be less "weak" than now if you don't like flask.
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Is Kennen still ok if you play him as a bit of CC bot?
Never see the little yordle anymore. Even though his nerfs weren't that heavy. I feel like he's still got a great initiate and uninitiate with his E that helps ganks and lets him survive hard hitting bruisers. I like how since he doesn't have to use mana his jungler can have it if he's mid and he can buy rylais first without having to worry about mana. Then Liandrys adds some decent damage compared to other items, when Kennen is ulting.
I hated Kennen's laning phase since everyone can push better than him but he can at least survive it imo and get kills if good ganks come by.
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Kennen is much better top imo. He can do fine mid, but top is such an easier lane for him.
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On January 23 2013 05:17 Cloud9157 wrote:
Kennen is much better top imo. He can do fine mid, but top is such an easier lane for him.
I dunno. I feel like people top can push just as hard. Even the immobile tops have a massive shield that can heal them (udyr) until the wave is under Kennen's tower.
I feel like Kennen's really opportunistic in lane and teamfight CC oriented.
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Canada2131 Posts
Kennen buffs inc.
Autoattack more responsive, hopefully this lessens the animation time he holds the shuriken in his hand and rotates his hand forward to throw.
Slicing Maelstrom energy cost going down to 0.
Will make initiating with E--> R much easier as huge energy cost of E made it hard to have enough energy to W ppl after the 2nd tick of R to aoe stun marked targets.
I play kennen as 9/0/21 for 10% cdr and with Spellvamp quints for 9% spellvamp. Top or mid is fine depending on what is best match up for you and for other mid/top. Kennen is a sustain and poke monster but his ability to carry relies on you timing your ult well post 11 (more stun marks distributed at lvl 2 ult) as well as your team taking capitalizing on it. You can't really 100-0 someone in a combo rotation, but you can certainly trade very, very well due to sustain and are practically immovable after revolver.
I think Kennen doesnt see as much play due: 1) to his inherent squishy-ness pre zhonyas. 2) Core items got nerfed pretty hard in both stats and cost (wota and zhonyas). 3) Team comp he is best in (aoe double ap) not as popular anymore. 4) nerfs on q and auto range made his auto and q based harass not as good post lvl 4-5. I find my autos do a LOT of dmg lvl s 1-4 but after the first buy the effect is minimal. But I max W first over Q with Q lagging one level up behind
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New changes to zhonyas allowing APs to build early cloth armor against bruisers might bring kennen back into flavor. I'm thinking about picking him up with all the double IP im getting this weekend.
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17/13 barrier/ignite AD bot
statikk shiv
lightning god
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Canada2131 Posts
On January 28 2013 03:41 Ghost-z wrote:
New changes to zhonyas allowing APs to build early cloth armor against bruisers might bring kennen back into flavor. I'm thinking about picking him up with all the double IP im getting this weekend.
It might. I feel the R energy cost reducction to 0 will do more for him tbh. Allow you to spam spells and still have the threat of ulting them whenever its up.
Also, whenever im against a bruiser I 100% buy a doran's shield, even if Im way, way ahead. The hp buffer (kennen's hp pool super small), the hp regen, armor and auto attack dmg reduction feels way too good to pass up. Combine this with spell vamp quints against a bruiser lane, you can trade evenly with heavy sustain champs or force bursty champs out of lane through attrition.
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I recently played a Jax v Kennen from the Jax side. I did really well getting more kills in lane. It felt like if I just used E, then jumped, Kennen would not be able to react in time and would get stunned and lose the trade. I had 2 doran's blades on Jax. There aren't any items as efficient as Dorans for early game trades. The only ones I can think of give mana: flask, catalyst, and sheen.
I'm not sure what Kennen could have done better. He traded really well, but he always had to poke his head out because I'd freeze lane and whenever he did, I'd just abuse my combo. Once teamfights started he started doing a lot better but by then it was too late. I think Jax v Kennen is just a bad matchup for Kennen.
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I've been playing alot of kennen lately and here are some of my experiences/do's and don'ts. 9/0/21 is best for mid lane or against very easy matchups top lane. 9 pots 2 wards is the best opening. Vs tougher lanes top and vs swain you may want to run flat ad quints/marks to swing the early game in your favor. Buying 1-2 dorans is still good if you do this. You can transition to ap after. 9/9/12 is better for tough lanes. In general, If you are running the spellvamp quints and masteries without having trouble with sustain in lane it's best to neglect picking up the revolver. If you feel you need the extra sustain then get it. When i do get it I never finish the wota though. The extra money is better spent else where on say rylais/liandry's. Maxing W first is best vs any champs that do not have single target spells. The exception is if you are running ad runes and u'll win the trade. Harder lanes its best to max q first if you aren't running ad runes. If i'm vs a bruiser top lane i'll pick up a cloth on my first back to build into a zhonya's later on. My build is general 9 pots/wards---->Hextech Revolver(if needed)----->Haunting guise/sorc shoes----->Rylai's Scepter------->Finish Liandry's. From here its situational, If i'm having trouble vs AD or if the enemy adc gets fed I might get the Zhonya's faster, Vs Fed ap or trouble with ap champ in lane I'll get an earlier negatron for an abyssal. End game build is Alacrity Sorc shoes/Liandry's/Rylai's/Zhonya's/Deathcap/Abyssal. If i did go Revolver I sell it for my last item which would be Deathcap.
As far as runepages go I use 5-6 different pages.
#1 Standard Kennen Mid Lane (ran with 9/0/21)
Spellvamp Quints
Energy Regen Per LvL Seals
Flat Magic Resist Blues
Flat Magic Pen Reds
#2 Aggressive Kennen Mid Lane ( ran with either 21/0/9 or 9/0/21)
Ap Quints
Energy Regen Per Lvl Seals
Flat Magic Pen Blues(These scale better early/mid/late game than ap/lvl but also benefit your W for early game aggro)
Flat Magic Pen Reds
#3 Defensive Kennen Mid Lane (usually ran with 9/9/12)
Spellvamp Quints
Hp/Lvl Seals
Flat magic resist blues
Flat magic pen reds
#4 Defensive Kennen Mid/Top Lane (almost always ran with 9/10/11)
Spellvamp Quints
Flat armor seals
Flat magic resist blues
Flat magic pen reds
#5 Ez Mode Kennen Top Lane (ran with w/e mastery setup you like)
AP Quints
Flat armor seals
Flat Magic pen Blues
Flat Magic pen Reds
#6 Kennen surprise Tactics (Usually used with 21/9/0 speccing in % magic pen/armor pen as well as flat armor pen)
This page is used vs lanes where you need the extra strong early game for example vs swain/jax. Vs ad you can subsitute Flat magic pen blues instead of the MR and vs AP you can use Energy Regen instead of the Armor if you wish.
Flat AD quints
Flat armor seals
Flat magic resist blues
Flat AD reds
Due to season 3 % magic pen changes, it is better to run flat mpen blues instead of scaling ap/lvl on most ap champs if you want an aggressive setup since they will benefit you more than ap/lvl blues at all stages of the game. The only exception is champions with 2 or more abilities with absurdly high ap ratios(like gragas) or champions that have other abilities that are based off ap such as vlad's healing, champions with shields like Lux/Orianna(For lux i'd rather have the Mpen though since it benefits her passive-personal preference), zilean ultimate etc etc. With flat mpen reds/blues you will start with 14 flat mpen. If you are facing a champ with flat mr blues you've already cut through them completely, and some. Once you pick up your first magic pen items you will deal true damage to anyone without magic resist. Once you have sorc shoes and haunting guise you'll deal true damage to anyone running flat mr blues.
This is what i've learned so far in the 3 weeks playing kennen. Top lane is almost always a harder match-up than mid due to gap closers. I haven't played every match-up yet so I'll probably update this with something new from time to time. I think Kennen is one of the more challenging champions to play. You really have to manage his auto attacks through out the laning phase to land those marks for stuns/zoning. It's really fun to do and once you get the hang of it you'll really start to bully your opponent.
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why is no one discussing ad kennen? it almost a free win with ez mf ibg cleaver bloodthirster nerfs. go 17/13/0 with normal ad runes (hybrid pen reds optional), start doran shield for max bullying / against kill lanes / high burst champs or usual long/cloth and pots. max w followed by e with one level in q. take barrier and ignite. buy statikk shiv, be super aggressive and win.
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United States37500 Posts
On February 06 2013 14:46 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
why is no one discussing ad kennen? it almost a free win with ez mf ibg cleaver bloodthirster nerfs. go 17/13/0 with normal ad runes (hybrid pen reds optional), start doran shield for max bullying / against kill lanes / high burst champs or usual long/cloth and pots. max w followed by e with one level in q. take barrier and ignite. buy statikk shiv, be super aggressive and win.
Surprised there hasn't been an influx of AD Kennens since EU LCS.
Either way, I expect GIANTS! to start a trend soon.
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EUW had some during the 2-3 days that followed, but it didn't seem to catch.
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When playing Kennen mid or top lane is it better to start Dorans Shield or 9pots/2wards? Or what is everyone else bringing into the lane as Kennen?
Here's what I've been bringing to lane. (9-0-21 Masteries)
Against physical bruiser: doran's shield (boots if they have no gap closer)
Against magical bruiser: pots/wards
Against skill shot casters: boots/pots
Against a gap closing champ: dorans shield
Against full burst AP: doran's shield
Against AD carry: dorans shield
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I go Boots + 5pots against most things, Cloth + 6pots against burst ADs, and pots + wards against things that can instant stun you (eg. Pantheon). I've never understood Dorans opening except against free win lanes, so I'm curious to which champions you're using them against.
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I've come to not like starting with dorans shield as much as I thought. 9pot+2ward is the only thing I start against APs and cloth+5 against ADs. As long as you're able to effectively get off auto attacks against your lane opponent I believe the dorans blade is much better in lane. I now only buy dorans shield on my first back if I am against a strong auto attacker like Fiora.
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Canada2131 Posts
On February 03 2013 10:45 obesechicken13 wrote:
I recently played a Jax v Kennen from the Jax side. I did really well getting more kills in lane. It felt like if I just used E, then jumped, Kennen would not be able to react in time and would get stunned and lose the trade. I had 2 doran's blades on Jax. There aren't any items as efficient as Dorans for early game trades. The only ones I can think of give mana: flask, catalyst, and sheen.
I'm not sure what Kennen could have done better. He traded really well, but he always had to poke his head out because I'd freeze lane and whenever he did, I'd just abuse my combo. Once teamfights started he started doing a lot better but by then it was too late. I think Jax v Kennen is just a bad matchup for Kennen.
Have played Kennen v Jax a few times from the kennen side. Top Lane
-In my exp as Kennen in general anyone with burst and targeted gap closers are a real pain. Jax is hard to deal with as his Q range is about equal to Kennen's AA range.
-Many Jax tend to run MS quints which makes them faster then me unless I activate E. An issue when trying to stay that "safe" distance where you can q or auto jax and he cannot Q you.
What I try to do to get advantages as Kennen v Jax
1) Heavily abuse my AA range in the early levels 1-3. Jax feels weakest at this timing. Saving those W marks for Jax as much as possible as the bonus dmg and follow up active can really hurt a jax early levels.
2) Armor yellows and a dorans start: combined with spellvamp quints and 9/0/21 the extra regen and hp buffer is really nice.
3) Abuse brushes. Since Q is a targeted ability I try to deny vision of my champ as much as possible while farming/harassing.
4) If I see a Jax turn on his E to be aggressive on me, I try to back off. However with MS Quints Jax can close for the Q pretty easily. If I can trade, I will E immediately as this does a few things( I am often forced to get E 2nd in Top lane as those level 2-3 ganks are really scary in the long top lane)
a) The extra AR and MR is invaluable. Helps reduce the burst from Jax Q+W or E+Q+W.
b) E will immediately add a lightning mark to Jax if he hits you with Q
c) As you kite back to safety, throw my Q back at Jax. If you hit you can activate W to stun jax. If you miss, then you can still try to add a passive mark from W to try get off the stun.
-Post 6 Jax can and will duel you to death pretty easily even with Kennen ult and hitting Q's and passive from W. I think its because both champs do sustained damage and Jax gets stronger burst with Q+W and his Ult Passive (dat free AR/MR when I duel him ) Kennen is kinda squishy all game before Revolver+Hourglass or Giants Belt.
-Oh, and if you fully commit to trying to kill jax he can Q to a ward or minion and get away. Wasted a few ults to watch him jump away with 1-2 lightning marks on him
TBH, Jax is not easy to play against at all. If Jax gets ahead then I can get zoned or roam (which is pretty good once you have ult). If I get ahead through solo kill or jungle gank I still feel Jax is never that far behind in power. Kennen just brings a better Ult to the Teamfight.
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On February 14 2013 09:49 GhoSt[shield] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 10:45 obesechicken13 wrote:
I recently played a Jax v Kennen from the Jax side. I did really well getting more kills in lane. It felt like if I just used E, then jumped, Kennen would not be able to react in time and would get stunned and lose the trade. I had 2 doran's blades on Jax. There aren't any items as efficient as Dorans for early game trades. The only ones I can think of give mana: flask, catalyst, and sheen.
I'm not sure what Kennen could have done better. He traded really well, but he always had to poke his head out because I'd freeze lane and whenever he did, I'd just abuse my combo. Once teamfights started he started doing a lot better but by then it was too late. I think Jax v Kennen is just a bad matchup for Kennen. Have played Kennen v Jax a few times from the kennen side. Top Lane -In my exp as Kennen in general anyone with burst and targeted gap closers are a real pain. Jax is hard to deal with as his Q range is about equal to Kennen's AA range. -Many Jax tend to run MS quints which makes them faster then me unless I activate E. An issue when trying to stay that "safe" distance where you can q or auto jax and he cannot Q you. What I try to do to get advantages as Kennen v Jax 1) Heavily abuse my AA range in the early levels 1-3. Jax feels weakest at this timing. Saving those W marks for Jax as much as possible as the bonus dmg and follow up active can really hurt a jax early levels. 2) Armor yellows and a dorans start: combined with spellvamp quints and 9/0/21 the extra regen and hp buffer is really nice. 3) Abuse brushes. Since Q is a targeted ability I try to deny vision of my champ as much as possible while farming/harassing. 4) If I see a Jax turn on his E to be aggressive on me, I try to back off. However with MS Quints Jax can close for the Q pretty easily. If I can trade, I will E immediately as this does a few things( I am often forced to get E 2nd in Top lane as those level 2-3 ganks are really scary in the long top lane) a) The extra AR and MR is invaluable. Helps reduce the burst from Jax Q+W or E+Q+W. b) E will immediately add a lightning mark to Jax if he hits you with Q c) As you kite back to safety, throw my Q back at Jax. If you hit you can activate W to stun jax. If you miss, then you can still try to add a passive mark from W to try get off the stun. -Post 6 Jax can and will duel you to death pretty easily even with Kennen ult and hitting Q's and passive from W. I think its because both champs do sustained damage and Jax gets stronger burst with Q+W and his Ult Passive (dat free AR/MR when I duel him ) Kennen is kinda squishy all game before Revolver+Hourglass or Giants Belt. -Oh, and if you fully commit to trying to kill jax he can Q to a ward or minion and get away. Wasted a few ults to watch him jump away with 1-2 lightning marks on him TBH, Jax is not easy to play against at all. If Jax gets ahead then I can get zoned or roam (which is pretty good once you have ult). If I get ahead through solo kill or jungle gank I still feel Jax is never that far behind in power. Kennen just brings a better Ult to the Teamfight.
I call it the Jax effect. Jax and several other bruisers are so strong they prevent a majority of tops from being viable tops even if they scale better.
I guess Kennen isn't terrible, but it seems like Jax is significantly easier.
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I was trying to think up a mid Kennen build today, and wonder what you guys think. Keep in mind I've played less than 5 Kennen games total.
Something like 21-9-0, going Q-E-W-W-W-R and then R>W>E>Q.
Item opening would be 11 pots 1 ward.
Idea is that by maxing W first and E second you can farm very easily, and only use Q to apply the mark, not using it for damage until late game. You'd ignore the enemy mid and just farm and gank.
Main item build would be Zhonyas, Rylais and Liandrys. You'd have average tankiness, and the Rylais+Liandrys would proc on everybody on the enemy team when you ult them in a fight, which is where you'd get your damage.
Let me know if you think it's crazy.
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On February 14 2013 12:27 Ketara wrote:
I was trying to think up a mid Kennen build today, and wonder what you guys think. Keep in mind I've played less than 5 Kennen games total.
Something like 21-9-0, going Q-E-W-W-W-R and then R>W>E>Q.
Item opening would be 11 pots 1 ward.
Idea is that by maxing W first and E second you can farm very easily, and only use Q to apply the mark, not using it for damage until late game. You'd ignore the enemy mid and just farm and gank.
Main item build would be Zhonyas, Rylais and Liandrys. You'd have average tankiness, and the Rylais+Liandrys would proc on everybody on the enemy team when you ult them in a fight, which is where you'd get your damage.
Let me know if you think it's crazy.
This build would get trashed by alot of ap mids, but would probably do pretty well vs melee ad's.
E->W farming is really unsafe vs high burst champions, same with getting zhonyas first, and same with only have 1 point in q -w autoing ap's is kinda iffy.
I mean if your against a mid that cant really punish you for eing the wave it would work out really well.
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Lots of people already do max W depending on the matchup. It isn't enough to clear waves so you might want to rush some AP.
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Canada2131 Posts
On February 14 2013 11:17 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 09:49 GhoSt[shield] wrote:On February 03 2013 10:45 obesechicken13 wrote:
I recently played a Jax v Kennen from the Jax side. I did really well getting more kills in lane. It felt like if I just used E, then jumped, Kennen would not be able to react in time and would get stunned and lose the trade. I had 2 doran's blades on Jax. There aren't any items as efficient as Dorans for early game trades. The only ones I can think of give mana: flask, catalyst, and sheen.
I'm not sure what Kennen could have done better. He traded really well, but he always had to poke his head out because I'd freeze lane and whenever he did, I'd just abuse my combo. Once teamfights started he started doing a lot better but by then it was too late. I think Jax v Kennen is just a bad matchup for Kennen. Have played Kennen v Jax a few times from the kennen side. Top Lane -In my exp as Kennen in general anyone with burst and targeted gap closers are a real pain. Jax is hard to deal with as his Q range is about equal to Kennen's AA range. -Many Jax tend to run MS quints which makes them faster then me unless I activate E. An issue when trying to stay that "safe" distance where you can q or auto jax and he cannot Q you. What I try to do to get advantages as Kennen v Jax 1) Heavily abuse my AA range in the early levels 1-3. Jax feels weakest at this timing. Saving those W marks for Jax as much as possible as the bonus dmg and follow up active can really hurt a jax early levels. 2) Armor yellows and a dorans start: combined with spellvamp quints and 9/0/21 the extra regen and hp buffer is really nice. 3) Abuse brushes. Since Q is a targeted ability I try to deny vision of my champ as much as possible while farming/harassing. 4) If I see a Jax turn on his E to be aggressive on me, I try to back off. However with MS Quints Jax can close for the Q pretty easily. If I can trade, I will E immediately as this does a few things( I am often forced to get E 2nd in Top lane as those level 2-3 ganks are really scary in the long top lane) a) The extra AR and MR is invaluable. Helps reduce the burst from Jax Q+W or E+Q+W. b) E will immediately add a lightning mark to Jax if he hits you with Q c) As you kite back to safety, throw my Q back at Jax. If you hit you can activate W to stun jax. If you miss, then you can still try to add a passive mark from W to try get off the stun. -Post 6 Jax can and will duel you to death pretty easily even with Kennen ult and hitting Q's and passive from W. I think its because both champs do sustained damage and Jax gets stronger burst with Q+W and his Ult Passive (dat free AR/MR when I duel him ) Kennen is kinda squishy all game before Revolver+Hourglass or Giants Belt. -Oh, and if you fully commit to trying to kill jax he can Q to a ward or minion and get away. Wasted a few ults to watch him jump away with 1-2 lightning marks on him TBH, Jax is not easy to play against at all. If Jax gets ahead then I can get zoned or roam (which is pretty good once you have ult). If I get ahead through solo kill or jungle gank I still feel Jax is never that far behind in power. Kennen just brings a better Ult to the Teamfight. I call it the Jax effect. Jax and several other bruisers are so strong they prevent a majority of tops from being viable tops even if they scale better. I guess Kennen isn't terrible, but it seems like Jax is significantly easier.
Kennen v jax is pretty skill based. I would give the edge to Jax though overall.
As Kennen, I need control the flow of the lane early in terms of positioning/trades in Top vs Jax. If I dont get ganks it is very difficult to duel Jax and come out on top post lvl 7-9. Then he just murders me in trades with ult passive Q+ W combo. If this happens all I do is try to stay safe and rush my revolver/hourglass for teamfight presence.
-I hope now with no cost on ult there will be less times where I E in after the innate and can't pop my ult due to lack of energy yellows.
I personally prefer to run Kennen Mid if I do run him as enemy mids will have less sustain in trade vs you.
Also it is easier to be in position to use Ult in during fights/objectives as opposed to top.
-E also makes Kennen practically ungankable due to the length of mid lane and you can roam bot with ult much easier.
On February 14 2013 12:27 Ketara wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I was trying to think up a mid Kennen build today, and wonder what you guys think. Keep in mind I've played less than 5 Kennen games total.
Something like 21-9-0, going Q-E-W-W-W-R and then R>W>E>Q.
Item opening would be 11 pots 1 ward.
Idea is that by maxing W first and E second you can farm very easily, and only use Q to apply the mark, not using it for damage until late game. You'd ignore the enemy mid and just farm and gank.
Main item build would be Zhonyas, Rylais and Liandrys. You'd have average tankiness, and the Rylais+Liandrys would proc on everybody on the enemy team when you ult them in a fight, which is where you'd get your damage. Let me know if you think it's crazy.
Your idea is crazy. See below. I hope it doesn't sound harsh but instead constructive on how to use Kennen most effectively.
+ Show Spoiler +-E'ing into the creep wave mid will get you murdered by any competent mid laner. Your E is your escape. Don't waste your only escape just to mark creeps. You are also pushing the lane super hard in this style, leaving you open to ganks immediate after you have used up for Long CD escape.
-Kennen has a great auto animation and good range. Love it, get used to it. Use it to cs, You E+W spam on the creep wave when shoving or enemy laner is away for some reason.
-E uses up over 1/2 energy for no reason other than to do pretty minor dmg to creeps.
-Maxing W>Q>E is much, much stronger in terms of dueling, zoning, cs'ing (using auto Q combo to get those pesky caster minions.)
-Q is also that finisher ability for fleeing enemies. So many kills seized/missed based on whether that last Q lands as they flee
-I actually max W 1 lvl ahead of Q (ex lvl 4 W, lvl 3 Q) as that skill progression provides the most consistent sustained damage.
-I can see it being somewhat decent if you are against some1 that you will farmfest against (Galio, Aniv)
-Basically you are giving up a bunch of killing power in lane and in teamfights in order to push your lane really hard.
-You rarely get marks off from E on multiple people in fights because you use it to rush in to initiate or follow the initiation. E is for mobility and free AR/MR, not damage.
-Also your build lacks sustain. Kennen is super, super squishy when not in E and you aren't building any resists of spell vamp, just AP/HP. Long fights will see you die after you ult, instead of cleaning up the fight and adding dps/stuns. Revolver is core for a reason.
-Any AP kennen build that lacks Hourglass in core is seriously lacking. The enemy WILL turn on you with their burst when you ult in the middle of them. With no resists and +800 hp from items, I don't see you surviving the burst with that build. Hourglass in the middle of your ult is an amazing initiation, and Hourglass has saved me many many times. It also provides good resists in AR which is good during the Mid-late game Reading comprehension Fail. Unless you ninja edited me.
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On February 14 2013 12:27 Ketara wrote:
I was trying to think up a mid Kennen build today, and wonder what you guys think. Keep in mind I've played less than 5 Kennen games total.
Something like 21-9-0, going Q-E-W-W-W-R and then R>W>E>Q.
Item opening would be 11 pots 1 ward.
Idea is that by maxing W first and E second you can farm very easily, and only use Q to apply the mark, not using it for damage until late game. You'd ignore the enemy mid and just farm and gank.
Main item build would be Zhonyas, Rylais and Liandrys. You'd have average tankiness, and the Rylais+Liandrys would proc on everybody on the enemy team when you ult them in a fight, which is where you'd get your damage.
Let me know if you think it's crazy.
Skill order for Kennen depends on the matchup so having a static build is wrong in itself. You will gimp yourself against some champions. And I would say the same thing about item builds, it depends on the team compositions. Though, most mid matchups you ignore the opponent and farm anyways so W max does work... >_>
Having W and E maxed first sucks though, since you lose way too much damage from your lack of your lowest CD highest AP ratio ability.
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I do not understand the thought process of maxing Q anywhere but last.
I mean, comparing the Q and E levels.
Q levels give you:
40 more damage (single target)
1 second less cd
5 less energy
E levels give you:
40 more damage (AoE)
1 second less cd
5 less energy
10 more Armor/MR
I don't see why you'd ever level Q over E. Having tried both now, W>E>Q feels much stronger than W>Q>E.
Having tried my crazy idea several times now, it seems very effective. It's matchup dependant (don't want to run it vs. an enemy laner with a targeted hard CC like TF or Ryze)
I haven't really figured out an item build yet, but the end goal is Zhonyas, Rylais, Abyssal Scepter and Liandrys, in some sort of order. Once I have all 4 I am getting easy triple and quadra kills in teamfights.
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Canada2131 Posts
On February 15 2013 07:35 Ketara wrote:I do not understand the thought process of maxing Q anywhere but last. I mean, comparing the Q and E levels. Q levels give you: 40 more damage (single target) 1 second less cd 5 less energy E levels give you: 40 more damage (AoE) 1 second less cd 5 less energy 10 more Armor/MR I don't see why you'd ever level Q over E. Having tried both now, W>E>Q feels much stronger than W>Q>E. Q is your poke, your clean up, is a lot of things. Q feels very, very strong when you hit most of the, as it leads to easy double stun combos, which the Long CD of E doesnt allow. + Show Spoiler +Having tried my crazy idea several times now, it seems very effective. It's matchup dependant (don't want to run it vs. an enemy laner with a targeted hard CC like TF or Ryze)
I haven't really figured out an item build yet, but the end goal is Zhonyas, Rylais, Abyssal Scepter and Liandrys, in some sort of order. Once I have all 4 I am getting easy triple and quadra kills in teamfights.
Kennen Ability Stats from LoL website
+ Show Spoiler +Q: 75/115/155/195/235 (+0.75) magic damage and adds a Mark of the Storm.
Cost: 65/60/55/50/45 Energy
Range: 950
E: 85/125/165/205/245 (+0.6) magic damage + 10/20/30/40/50 armor and magic resistance for 4 seconds. Refunded 40 energy once if pass through an enemy. 1/2 Dmg to minions.
Cost: 100/95/90/85/80 Energy
Range: 0
W>E>Q is stronger for farming but trades off most of your killing/poking potential in lane due to the range difference between E and Q. Kennen is one of best solo laners due his whole kit, and you are not taking advantage of this. Its cool to play passive farm bot style, but seriously Kennen is one of strongest or at least safest laners period. Use that to your advantage istead of negating it but solely focusing on farm.
Seems to me you use E offensively or at least that is your mindset. Using your E to aoe mark enemies while taking advantage of the free AR/MR. In my experience, for most teamfights you will not have the opportunity to use E offensively beyond setting up your ult. It sounds cool to mark 3-5 ppl with E, but having played 100+ kennen games, people rarely, rarely clump up to make that efficient. On top of that, you lose the ability to auto attack during E, meaning you can't throw passive W mark, you can only throw Q's or activate W. That passive W is very, very important in the double stun combo for Kennen.
Stun combos are much easier to pull off with Q maxed over E, and E is relying on people to let you get within melee range to get off your dmg and marks but farms a little better than W>Q.>E.
It feels like you talk very, very little about dueling and trading in the laning phase and are focusing on what Kennen does at like min 30-35 when you have 4-5 items ( you didnt include boots in your core). I guess you are not trading much in lane with W>E max, and that could be a reason as that is an inherently passive way to play Kennen.
Kennen is a teamfight beast solely due to ult, and his other abilities enhance his teamfight/clean up ability. Your 5 item build is great for teamfights and aoe damage. I just think you are giving up a lot of killing potential in the early/mid game as a means to passive farm the lane till 4 items + tier 2 boots.
TLDR: W>Q>E easier double stun combos due to lower CD on Q. W>Q>E is to take advantage of Kennen's safety in lane and create tiny advantages to win/snowball lane in your favour. I find it easy to shove with Kennen without Max E but its not the fastest if compared to Max E (which only does 1/2 dmg to minions anyways, max lvl 125ish dmg)
W>E>Q gives up most killing potential in order to farm farm farm. TBH, if you are farming so heavily I think revolver is better as you will constantly get sustain from the E+W on the wave. I can understand haunting for extra dmgs but I mean your whole build is pretty pricey so I guess I understand the need to farm out lane hard.
Little note: Most Kennen games I play unless 40+ mins I dont get past a core of: boots 2, revolver, zhonyas, Rylais. I'd like to buy more, but game usually over by then.
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So, I've been testing a bit of AD Kennen recently and have stumbled upon a question where I'm not sure what to do. Usually I rush a BoTRK as AD Kennen, but have recently experimented with Runaan's Hurricane. I found that the passive of Kennen's W works extremely well with Hurricane, as you can basically get a passive hit of on every second auto attack, assuming that you are not fighting a 1v1.
Now here's the part that I'm wondering about. Is it actually viable to build Hurricane at any point in the game, and if yes, when? The thing I'm struggling is, that if it is actually worth it to get those extra W stacks, when the item itself only gives attack speed as a stat, when there are items like PD which provide a larger spectrum of useful stats for an AD Carry. Yet I still have a feeling, that this item can still be very useful and I would be thankful if someone who is more knowledgable in this type of maths can educate me on the usefulness of this item on this cute yordle.
TL;DR:
Is Runaan's Hurricane any good on Kennen, and if yes when and why.
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How exactly are you getting a passive W proc on every second auto attack? Do the extra two bolts from Hurricane actually raise his W counter?!? The extra two bolts from Hurricane should apply the magic damage proc from his W.
I wouldn't consider Hurricane unless you plan to be in the middle of the fights auto attacking during his ult, in which case you would be getting both bolts to proc on each attack.
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Let's simplify the math:
Normally Kennen's gives him 80% bonus damage every 5 hits so basically 16% increased DPS
With Runaan hitting 2 targets, he'll get 80% bonus damage every 3 hits so 26.6% increased DPS.
You get splash damage onto a second target which is really nice, but from the perspective of raising you DPS against your primary target it's really not that effective. Of course if you're hitting 3-4 guys with Runaan then the item is godly but don't count on that.
All in all, I'd call Runaan an unreliable investment. You can't guarantee the scenarios in which you'd get the most benefits out of the item compared to PD or Statik Shiv. If you do manage to hit several people in a teamfight then you probably will steamrolll the teamfight.
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EPT
