EPT[Champion] Kennen - Page 11
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
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GhoSt[shield]
Canada2131 Posts
On February 03 2013 10:45 obesechicken13 wrote: I recently played a Jax v Kennen from the Jax side. I did really well getting more kills in lane. It felt like if I just used E, then jumped, Kennen would not be able to react in time and would get stunned and lose the trade. I had 2 doran's blades on Jax. There aren't any items as efficient as Dorans for early game trades. The only ones I can think of give mana: flask, catalyst, and sheen. I'm not sure what Kennen could have done better. He traded really well, but he always had to poke his head out because I'd freeze lane and whenever he did, I'd just abuse my combo. Once teamfights started he started doing a lot better but by then it was too late. I think Jax v Kennen is just a bad matchup for Kennen. Have played Kennen v Jax a few times from the kennen side. Top Lane -In my exp as Kennen in general anyone with burst and targeted gap closers are a real pain. Jax is hard to deal with as his Q range is about equal to Kennen's AA range. -Many Jax tend to run MS quints which makes them faster then me unless I activate E. An issue when trying to stay that "safe" distance where you can q or auto jax and he cannot Q you. What I try to do to get advantages as Kennen v Jax 1) Heavily abuse my AA range in the early levels 1-3. Jax feels weakest at this timing. Saving those W marks for Jax as much as possible as the bonus dmg and follow up active can really hurt a jax early levels. 2) Armor yellows and a dorans start: combined with spellvamp quints and 9/0/21 the extra regen and hp buffer is really nice. 3) Abuse brushes. Since Q is a targeted ability I try to deny vision of my champ as much as possible while farming/harassing. 4) If I see a Jax turn on his E to be aggressive on me, I try to back off. However with MS Quints Jax can close for the Q pretty easily. If I can trade, I will E immediately as this does a few things( I am often forced to get E 2nd in Top lane as those level 2-3 ganks are really scary in the long top lane) a) The extra AR and MR is invaluable. Helps reduce the burst from Jax Q+W or E+Q+W. b) E will immediately add a lightning mark to Jax if he hits you with Q c) As you kite back to safety, throw my Q back at Jax. If you hit you can activate W to stun jax. If you miss, then you can still try to add a passive mark from W to try get off the stun. -Post 6 Jax can and will duel you to death pretty easily even with Kennen ult and hitting Q's and passive from W. I think its because both champs do sustained damage and Jax gets stronger burst with Q+W and his Ult Passive (dat free AR/MR when I duel him  ) Kennen is kinda squishy all game before Revolver+Hourglass or Giants Belt.-Oh, and if you fully commit to trying to kill jax he can Q to a ward or minion and get away. Wasted a few ults to watch him jump away with 1-2 lightning marks on him TBH, Jax is not easy to play against at all. If Jax gets ahead then I can get zoned or roam (which is pretty good once you have ult). If I get ahead through solo kill or jungle gank I still feel Jax is never that far behind in power. Kennen just brings a better Ult to the Teamfight. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On February 14 2013 09:49 GhoSt[shield] wrote: Have played Kennen v Jax a few times from the kennen side. Top Lane -In my exp as Kennen in general anyone with burst and targeted gap closers are a real pain. Jax is hard to deal with as his Q range is about equal to Kennen's AA range. -Many Jax tend to run MS quints which makes them faster then me unless I activate E. An issue when trying to stay that "safe" distance where you can q or auto jax and he cannot Q you. What I try to do to get advantages as Kennen v Jax 1) Heavily abuse my AA range in the early levels 1-3. Jax feels weakest at this timing. Saving those W marks for Jax as much as possible as the bonus dmg and follow up active can really hurt a jax early levels. 2) Armor yellows and a dorans start: combined with spellvamp quints and 9/0/21 the extra regen and hp buffer is really nice. 3) Abuse brushes. Since Q is a targeted ability I try to deny vision of my champ as much as possible while farming/harassing. 4) If I see a Jax turn on his E to be aggressive on me, I try to back off. However with MS Quints Jax can close for the Q pretty easily. If I can trade, I will E immediately as this does a few things( I am often forced to get E 2nd in Top lane as those level 2-3 ganks are really scary in the long top lane) a) The extra AR and MR is invaluable. Helps reduce the burst from Jax Q+W or E+Q+W. b) E will immediately add a lightning mark to Jax if he hits you with Q c) As you kite back to safety, throw my Q back at Jax. If you hit you can activate W to stun jax. If you miss, then you can still try to add a passive mark from W to try get off the stun. -Post 6 Jax can and will duel you to death pretty easily even with Kennen ult and hitting Q's and passive from W. I think its because both champs do sustained damage and Jax gets stronger burst with Q+W and his Ult Passive (dat free AR/MR when I duel him ) Kennen is kinda squishy all game before Revolver+Hourglass or Giants Belt.-Oh, and if you fully commit to trying to kill jax he can Q to a ward or minion and get away. Wasted a few ults to watch him jump away with 1-2 lightning marks on him TBH, Jax is not easy to play against at all. If Jax gets ahead then I can get zoned or roam (which is pretty good once you have ult). If I get ahead through solo kill or jungle gank I still feel Jax is never that far behind in power. Kennen just brings a better Ult to the Teamfight. I call it the Jax effect. Jax and several other bruisers are so strong they prevent a majority of tops from being viable tops even if they scale better. I guess Kennen isn't terrible, but it seems like Jax is significantly easier. | ||
Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Something like 21-9-0, going Q-E-W-W-W-R and then R>W>E>Q. Item opening would be 11 pots 1 ward. Idea is that by maxing W first and E second you can farm very easily, and only use Q to apply the mark, not using it for damage until late game. You'd ignore the enemy mid and just farm and gank. Main item build would be Zhonyas, Rylais and Liandrys. You'd have average tankiness, and the Rylais+Liandrys would proc on everybody on the enemy team when you ult them in a fight, which is where you'd get your damage. Let me know if you think it's crazy. | ||
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dae
Canada1600 Posts
On February 14 2013 12:27 Ketara wrote: I was trying to think up a mid Kennen build today, and wonder what you guys think. Keep in mind I've played less than 5 Kennen games total. Something like 21-9-0, going Q-E-W-W-W-R and then R>W>E>Q. Item opening would be 11 pots 1 ward. Idea is that by maxing W first and E second you can farm very easily, and only use Q to apply the mark, not using it for damage until late game. You'd ignore the enemy mid and just farm and gank. Main item build would be Zhonyas, Rylais and Liandrys. You'd have average tankiness, and the Rylais+Liandrys would proc on everybody on the enemy team when you ult them in a fight, which is where you'd get your damage. Let me know if you think it's crazy. This build would get trashed by alot of ap mids, but would probably do pretty well vs melee ad's. E->W farming is really unsafe vs high burst champions, same with getting zhonyas first, and same with only have 1 point in q -w autoing ap's is kinda iffy. I mean if your against a mid that cant really punish you for eing the wave it would work out really well. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
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GhoSt[shield]
Canada2131 Posts
On February 14 2013 11:17 obesechicken13 wrote: I call it the Jax effect. Jax and several other bruisers are so strong they prevent a majority of tops from being viable tops even if they scale better. I guess Kennen isn't terrible, but it seems like Jax is significantly easier. Kennen v jax is pretty skill based. I would give the edge to Jax though overall. As Kennen, I need control the flow of the lane early in terms of positioning/trades in Top vs Jax. If I dont get ganks it is very difficult to duel Jax and come out on top post lvl 7-9. Then he just murders me in trades with ult passive Q+ W combo. If this happens all I do is try to stay safe and rush my revolver/hourglass for teamfight presence. -I hope now with no cost on ult there will be less times where I E in after the innate and can't pop my ult due to lack of energy yellows. I personally prefer to run Kennen Mid if I do run him as enemy mids will have less sustain in trade vs you. Also it is easier to be in position to use Ult in during fights/objectives as opposed to top. -E also makes Kennen practically ungankable due to the length of mid lane and you can roam bot with ult much easier. On February 14 2013 12:27 Ketara wrote: + Show Spoiler + I was trying to think up a mid Kennen build today, and wonder what you guys think. Keep in mind I've played less than 5 Kennen games total. Something like 21-9-0, going Q-E-W-W-W-R and then R>W>E>Q. Item opening would be 11 pots 1 ward. Idea is that by maxing W first and E second you can farm very easily, and only use Q to apply the mark, not using it for damage until late game. You'd ignore the enemy mid and just farm and gank. Main item build would be Zhonyas, Rylais and Liandrys. You'd have average tankiness, and the Rylais+Liandrys would proc on everybody on the enemy team when you ult them in a fight, which is where you'd get your damage. Let me know if you think it's crazy. Your idea is crazy. See below. I hope it doesn't sound harsh but instead constructive on how to use Kennen most effectively. + Show Spoiler + -E'ing into the creep wave mid will get you murdered by any competent mid laner. Your E is your escape. Don't waste your only escape just to mark creeps. You are also pushing the lane super hard in this style, leaving you open to ganks immediate after you have used up for Long CD escape. -Kennen has a great auto animation and good range. Love it, get used to it. Use it to cs, You E+W spam on the creep wave when shoving or enemy laner is away for some reason. -E uses up over 1/2 energy for no reason other than to do pretty minor dmg to creeps. -Maxing W>Q>E is much, much stronger in terms of dueling, zoning, cs'ing (using auto Q combo to get those pesky caster minions.) -Q is also that finisher ability for fleeing enemies. So many kills seized/missed based on whether that last Q lands as they flee -I actually max W 1 lvl ahead of Q (ex lvl 4 W, lvl 3 Q) as that skill progression provides the most consistent sustained damage. -I can see it being somewhat decent if you are against some1 that you will farmfest against (Galio, Aniv) -Basically you are giving up a bunch of killing power in lane and in teamfights in order to push your lane really hard. -You rarely get marks off from E on multiple people in fights because you use it to rush in to initiate or follow the initiation. E is for mobility and free AR/MR, not damage. -Also your build lacks sustain. Kennen is super, super squishy when not in E and you aren't building any resists of spell vamp, just AP/HP. Long fights will see you die after you ult, instead of cleaning up the fight and adding dps/stuns. Revolver is core for a reason. | ||
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dottycakes
Canada548 Posts
On February 14 2013 12:27 Ketara wrote: I was trying to think up a mid Kennen build today, and wonder what you guys think. Keep in mind I've played less than 5 Kennen games total. Something like 21-9-0, going Q-E-W-W-W-R and then R>W>E>Q. Item opening would be 11 pots 1 ward. Idea is that by maxing W first and E second you can farm very easily, and only use Q to apply the mark, not using it for damage until late game. You'd ignore the enemy mid and just farm and gank. Main item build would be Zhonyas, Rylais and Liandrys. You'd have average tankiness, and the Rylais+Liandrys would proc on everybody on the enemy team when you ult them in a fight, which is where you'd get your damage. Let me know if you think it's crazy. Skill order for Kennen depends on the matchup so having a static build is wrong in itself. You will gimp yourself against some champions. And I would say the same thing about item builds, it depends on the team compositions. Though, most mid matchups you ignore the opponent and farm anyways so W max does work... >_> Having W and E maxed first sucks though, since you lose way too much damage from your lack of your lowest CD highest AP ratio ability. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I mean, comparing the Q and E levels. Q levels give you: 40 more damage (single target) 1 second less cd 5 less energy E levels give you: 40 more damage (AoE) 1 second less cd 5 less energy 10 more Armor/MR I don't see why you'd ever level Q over E. Having tried both now, W>E>Q feels much stronger than W>Q>E. Having tried my crazy idea several times now, it seems very effective. It's matchup dependant (don't want to run it vs. an enemy laner with a targeted hard CC like TF or Ryze) I haven't really figured out an item build yet, but the end goal is Zhonyas, Rylais, Abyssal Scepter and Liandrys, in some sort of order. Once I have all 4 I am getting easy triple and quadra kills in teamfights. | ||
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GhoSt[shield]
Canada2131 Posts
On February 15 2013 07:35 Ketara wrote: I do not understand the thought process of maxing Q anywhere but last. I mean, comparing the Q and E levels. Q levels give you: 40 more damage (single target) 1 second less cd 5 less energy E levels give you: 40 more damage (AoE) 1 second less cd 5 less energy 10 more Armor/MR I don't see why you'd ever level Q over E. Having tried both now, W>E>Q feels much stronger than W>Q>E. Q is your poke, your clean up, is a lot of things. Q feels very, very strong when you hit most of the, as it leads to easy double stun combos, which the Long CD of E doesnt allow. + Show Spoiler + Having tried my crazy idea several times now, it seems very effective. It's matchup dependant (don't want to run it vs. an enemy laner with a targeted hard CC like TF or Ryze) I haven't really figured out an item build yet, but the end goal is Zhonyas, Rylais, Abyssal Scepter and Liandrys, in some sort of order. Once I have all 4 I am getting easy triple and quadra kills in teamfights. Kennen Ability Stats from LoL website + Show Spoiler + Q: 75/115/155/195/235 (+0.75) magic damage and adds a Mark of the Storm. Cost: 65/60/55/50/45 Energy Range: 950 E: 85/125/165/205/245 (+0.6) magic damage + 10/20/30/40/50 armor and magic resistance for 4 seconds. Refunded 40 energy once if pass through an enemy. 1/2 Dmg to minions. Cost: 100/95/90/85/80 Energy Range: 0 W>E>Q is stronger for farming but trades off most of your killing/poking potential in lane due to the range difference between E and Q. Kennen is one of best solo laners due his whole kit, and you are not taking advantage of this. Its cool to play passive farm bot style, but seriously Kennen is one of strongest or at least safest laners period. Use that to your advantage istead of negating it but solely focusing on farm. Seems to me you use E offensively or at least that is your mindset. Using your E to aoe mark enemies while taking advantage of the free AR/MR. In my experience, for most teamfights you will not have the opportunity to use E offensively beyond setting up your ult. It sounds cool to mark 3-5 ppl with E, but having played 100+ kennen games, people rarely, rarely clump up to make that efficient. On top of that, you lose the ability to auto attack during E, meaning you can't throw passive W mark, you can only throw Q's or activate W. That passive W is very, very important in the double stun combo for Kennen. Stun combos are much easier to pull off with Q maxed over E, and E is relying on people to let you get within melee range to get off your dmg and marks but farms a little better than W>Q.>E. It feels like you talk very, very little about dueling and trading in the laning phase and are focusing on what Kennen does at like min 30-35 when you have 4-5 items ( you didnt include boots in your core). I guess you are not trading much in lane with W>E max, and that could be a reason as that is an inherently passive way to play Kennen. Kennen is a teamfight beast solely due to ult, and his other abilities enhance his teamfight/clean up ability. Your 5 item build is great for teamfights and aoe damage. I just think you are giving up a lot of killing potential in the early/mid game as a means to passive farm the lane till 4 items + tier 2 boots. TLDR: W>Q>E easier double stun combos due to lower CD on Q. W>Q>E is to take advantage of Kennen's safety in lane and create tiny advantages to win/snowball lane in your favour. I find it easy to shove with Kennen without Max E but its not the fastest if compared to Max E (which only does 1/2 dmg to minions anyways, max lvl 125ish dmg) W>E>Q gives up most killing potential in order to farm farm farm. TBH, if you are farming so heavily I think revolver is better as you will constantly get sustain from the E+W on the wave. I can understand haunting for extra dmgs but I mean your whole build is pretty pricey so I guess I understand the need to farm out lane hard. Little note: Most Kennen games I play unless 40+ mins I dont get past a core of: boots 2, revolver, zhonyas, Rylais. I'd like to buy more, but game usually over by then. | ||
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Mafab
Germany458 Posts
Now here's the part that I'm wondering about. Is it actually viable to build Hurricane at any point in the game, and if yes, when? The thing I'm struggling is, that if it is actually worth it to get those extra W stacks, when the item itself only gives attack speed as a stat, when there are items like PD which provide a larger spectrum of useful stats for an AD Carry. Yet I still have a feeling, that this item can still be very useful and I would be thankful if someone who is more knowledgable in this type of maths can educate me on the usefulness of this item on this cute yordle. TL;DR: Is Runaan's Hurricane any good on Kennen, and if yes when and why. | ||
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
I wouldn't consider Hurricane unless you plan to be in the middle of the fights auto attacking during his ult, in which case you would be getting both bolts to proc on each attack. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
Normally Kennen's gives him 80% bonus damage every 5 hits so basically 16% increased DPS With Runaan hitting 2 targets, he'll get 80% bonus damage every 3 hits so 26.6% increased DPS. You get splash damage onto a second target which is really nice, but from the perspective of raising you DPS against your primary target it's really not that effective. Of course if you're hitting 3-4 guys with Runaan then the item is godly but don't count on that. All in all, I'd call Runaan an unreliable investment. You can't guarantee the scenarios in which you'd get the most benefits out of the item compared to PD or Statik Shiv. If you do manage to hit several people in a teamfight then you probably will steamrolll the teamfight. | ||
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