EPT[Champion] Irelia - Page 27
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fcgog
United Kingdom876 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
2 - AS slows, but Malphite (most suited AS slow for top lane) is pretty much permaban status, which lends a lot to Irelia's current popularity. 3 - Laners who trade HARD early on, with low mana costs, can give her a lot of grief - ex. Darius, Riven,or Olaf - can be played to good effect against Irelia, forcing her to lose CS in fear - but if she gets ahead of you due to ganks or misplays, she can start outtrading you and you've lost your only weapon against her. You also need to consistently trade to keep her from Hiten-sustaining back the damage. If you force her to get significant lifesteal, you're doing well - lifesteal items are not a typical preferred core for Irelia. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On September 07 2012 19:30 rethos wrote: Could you please go into more detail on what you mean by this? What would "as offensively as possible" mean for Irelia in your opinion? Irelia is my most played but i don't have a good win rate on her and i'm always looking for ways to improve on her. Edit: in hindsight since you wrote the guide, I should probably just read it again  . Disregard.Usually you get extra defense when the enemy champion can harass you without you being able to hit him back, for Irelia there is really no champion who can do that. For example, you are thinking of going armor quints vs Olaf, but there is no need, if he true damages you, you can harass him back with E + W + Q combo. In fact you out damage him at all phases of laning. In cases like these you should be rune-ing for damage and late game, which means getting AS or AD quints. You don't need extra defense to lane vs anyone, but you hit really hard if you go offense. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On September 08 2012 06:33 Alaric wrote: I can't even beat Irelia as Jayce, I've been picking her everytime I get top recently because I want to improve (or rather undo the crust of rust I've gathered on a lot of champs) and almost all of those games Jayce was top (picked before or after me), and I'd get fucking annoyed because I can't engage him if he doesn't stay near an almost dead minion (he's ranged so it's easy for him) as he'll simply laugh and kite backwards while harassing. And he'll only engage me in hammer form with Q, the slow making it really hard to reposition before he Es me away (or else I'd move near a wall or between his tower and him). I end up pushed and harassed every game as there's no way you fight him early (where ranged > melee), nor at level 3-4 where he hits a window, and after that he just uses E to win trades as I can't be building boots+armor+MR all at the same time, and he can abuse his way shorter CDs and stupidly low mana costs (Hiten 15s, then choose between 14s Q cd or only 1s E stun/slow). So he harasses me at tower and build up a lead such that I generally have to back before 6 unless a gank happens, then lose even more creeps since I'm pushed when I have to back, and he rides on that and his stupidly versatile as hell kit. I don't even know how to spec against him, I tried 19-11, a 9-13-8 variation for more MR, armor and MS since 19-11 never catches up to him and I can never prevent him from dictating trades. I've tried AS reds, flat armor yellows, and then either flat MR blues/quints, MR/level blues/MS quints, MR/levels blues/armor quints. I generally start cloth+5 because he's ranged and I'll never catch him early on anyway (nor do I want to go on the offensive from the start as Irelia), tried boots->phage->wit's (ie NMM), tabi->phage->triforce, tabi->phage->MR, and though it often has to do with him getting a lead early, none of those builds seemed to give me early armor against his harass, damage/sticking power (I feel like I need the phage even though I don't remember a single situation where I got a proc that allowed me to stick to him more than one auto, bullshit MS buffs everywhere), and MR in time for his level 4-5 hammer E. I know my mechanics are bad and the "when he attacks you, position so that he can't E you and run to his tower/E you away enough that you can't Q to him" is only a part of the solution, but people have been telling me that Irelia should beat Jayce (without telling me how, so smug) and I just can't manage to do it. I am pretty sure Irelia counters Jayce. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On September 08 2012 08:47 sylverfyre wrote: 1 - Jax. Press E when she presses W. It's almost too good to be true. You can outtrade her early, and you scale at least equally hard. 2 - AS slows, but Malphite (most suited AS slow for top lane) is pretty much permaban status, which lends a lot to Irelia's current popularity. 3 - Laners who trade HARD early on, with low mana costs, can give her a lot of grief - ex. Darius, Riven,or Olaf - can be played to good effect against Irelia, forcing her to lose CS in fear - but if she gets ahead of you due to ganks or misplays, she can start outtrading you and you've lost your only weapon against her. You also need to consistently trade to keep her from Hiten-sustaining back the damage. If you force her to get significant lifesteal, you're doing well - lifesteal items are not a typical preferred core for Irelia. Olaf and Riven get destroyed by Irelia, otherwise that's pretty much right. Jayce is good, I think volibear is good. Nasus is a hard counter. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On September 08 2012 08:55 zulu_nation8 wrote: Olaf and Riven get destroyed by Irelia, otherwise that's pretty much right. Jayce is good, I think volibear is good. Nasus is a hard counter. Nasus is just inviting the jungle to camp you though. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On September 08 2012 08:55 Sufficiency wrote: I am pretty sure Irelia counters Jayce. Welp. That should have been "Can't beat Jayce as Irelia", way to post a wall of text and mislead people within the first 10 words. x_x Also @above I believe Riven and Olaf snowball hard enough to beat Irelia if they manage to get a lead (particularly in levels for Olaf) early on. Basically Olaf wins if he just hits and runs with E, and Irelia wins if she responds with her own E and auto-attacks (you basically outdamage his E if you E back + one aa, and your W beats his, so... ). Since there are people not playing the match-up right on both sides, up to a certain Elo (which is seemingly higher than mine) you can win as Irelia or as Olaf quite easily. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On September 08 2012 09:23 cLutZ wrote: Nasus is just inviting the jungle to camp you though. Hes a worse champion but a hard counter in lane. I've never seen an Olaf win vs Irelia at any elo, I've seen Rivens win with earl snowball but most of the time they get destroyed. I've played the matchup a lot and it's really difficult for Riven. Irelia does not counter Jayce in any way whatsoever. | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
On September 08 2012 07:19 Alaric wrote: The thing is, you need an almost dead minion to Q to so you get the cd reset. Smart Jayce players won't allow you that by using his range to position so they can last hit without exposing themselves. He would be much easier to engage otherwise (as is, and per personal experience, I can't fight him unless he wants to or engages me). I'll try running AD runes rather than AS/other next time. Since he disengages or put distance so easily, it's not like the additional AS will be very useful unless I get wit's or become godly at microing or something. I mean, then don't engage him? Just dodge all his skillshots and unless he approaches you to engage don't do it. If you think you're in a disadvantageous lane, then just farm. There's no real need to kill the other dude sometimes. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Sure he'll push, but he can also harass you under tower easily it if comes to this, and you'll get zoned early on and possibly lose a lot of cs. I know the answer to "your opponent pushes you" is to call your jungler for a gank, but when people keep telling me "Irelia counters Jayce" then I take it as "you're not supposed to need your jungler/end up harassed under your tower", so there must be something to lane control/farming against him, or even outtrading him. | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
Jayce's advantage is that huge cannon poke so just get boots three and dodge accordingly. Q to creeps if you have to or sac cs. If he's pushing up to your tower just wait till creeps are in your favor and take it one step at a time. Q to creeps, E, auto, walk away. Rinse and repeat. Chip him bit by bit until you think you can win an extended trade. *shrug* Just because Jayce is in cannon form doesn't mean he can't disengage from you instantaneously like teemo does when he just goes vroom vroom away from you. At least that's how I see it. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
edit: if a slightly boring one. Jayce can also take advantage of level 2 where he will be a bit stronger, but past that it's kinda up in the air. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On September 08 2012 23:20 barbsq wrote: in irelia vs jayce, the one who engages first loses, which is an interesting dynamic for a matchup. edit: if a slightly boring one. Jayce can also take advantage of level 2 where he will be a bit stronger, but past that it's kinda up in the air. not when jayce has ranged abilities rofl | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
I never remember having trouble against irelia and I think overall an average match up for him but obviously if irelia snowballs she snowballs hard. I would say in teamfights nasus is happy because he can buy frozen heart to slow her AS and then either W (will only last like 2 seconds on a mercs passive irelia) to kite her or just W their AD and help DPS down the irelia. That said I would be careful as fuck picking him against wickds irelia and also depends on how well their jungler can gank a passive lane. (either brush gank or tower diving) I haven't tested it at "high" elo though because people just like to troll me when I pick nasus and I usually can't pick top late enough anyways. As nasus I'd rush shurelyas and then frozen heart. As irelia it's really tricky for her because rushing mercs helps vs W, but then you have zero armour against his Q especially under E, and there's no easy way to get armour except dorans shield which seems like a meh buy against a passive laner. Wits end would be best to duel him but its more MR and you kinda want trinity force. I'd probably just rush mercs and trinity as irelia maybe with a chain vest early. I would say you wouldn't pick irelia into a nasus but you wouldn't be worried about nasus being picked into you TOO much because you have opportunity to outplay him (or be outplayed) | ||
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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
On September 10 2012 06:17 gtrsrs wrote: can you detail irelia v nasus? The idea behind Irelia vs nasus is that you scale so much better with farm that it's a lane win if you go equal on farm. She can't really kill you because when ever she uses her W you W her in return and she gets crippled. Basically you just win the lane by farming. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
However, even small advantages in lane feel huge later. The ability to push around the other guy in lane is huge, even if it's a 30 cs advantage, you can push his tower, and get him farming top while you're there to make plays and tend to pick up the kills and assists more than he does, or if he leaves lane you can shove even harder and pressure their second tower, so as a general rule I'd say if you can't beat the other laner in 1v1 as a bruiser you don't want to pick him. If it's a tank or AP it's a different story though. Even if its yorick or something nasus can push yorick around later on if you get even or more farmed. (And it's easy to gank yorick with nasus because of 5 second W yorick can't afford to rush mercs) | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On September 10 2012 06:28 TheKefka wrote: The idea behind Irelia vs nasus is that you scale so much better with farm that it's a lane win if you go equal on farm. She can't really kill you because when ever she uses her W you W her in return and she gets crippled. Basically you just win the lane by farming. Eh... Irelia scales pretty well herself, and can use her Q as an auto reset when suffering the worst of the AS slow during trades. Ultimately, with auto-resetting, mercs and her passive, your W just doesn't affect Irelia as much as you need it to, and she can trade pretty hard and potentially bully you out of the lane, while matching your sustain and scaling. She's also perfectly capable of NOT pushing the lane, meaning you won't get to freeze the lane like you pretty much need to as Nasus. | ||
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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
On September 10 2012 07:10 sylverfyre wrote: Eh... Irelia scales pretty well herself, and can use her Q as an auto reset when suffering the worst of the AS slow during trades. Ultimately, with auto-resetting, mercs and her passive, your W just doesn't affect Irelia as much as you need it to, and she can trade pretty hard and potentially bully you out of the lane, while matching your sustain and scaling. She's also perfectly capable of NOT pushing the lane, meaning you won't get to freeze the lane like you pretty much need to as Nasus. If she goes in to bully you the lane always pushes because all of your creeps are trying to attack her while your sitting in the back row and the enemy ranged creeps are still hitting your minions.Yes Irelia is a stronger laner but nasus is perfectly capable of not dying and preventing the allin from killing him.Freezing a lane is not that hard tbh,the hard part is keeping the growth of the wave under control,because if you suddenly find yourself with a huge amount of creeps that aren't dead and you are a lvl behind and can't even think about anything else but moving back when she goes in to trade blows,eventually you will have to give in and let it push completely out to your tower.If your jungler isn't an idiot he will exploit the fact that the lane will be mostly pushed and gank her.The only way to not have the lane pushing for Irelia is if she just last hits and minds her own business,which you are more than ok with. Everything Slayer said is pretty much spot on tho. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On September 08 2012 08:55 Sufficiency wrote: I am pretty sure Irelia counters Jayce. I read the "Irelia is a counter to Jayce" all the time but i've never seen it happen when Jayce didn't make a huge mistake. I'm not a good player, so i might be wrong but every time i either played Irelia vs Jayce or played Jayce myself against Irelia there was no chance for her to do anything in lane. His level 2 combo takes Irelia to 50% health after which he can just do ranged harass or just melee Q/E every time she moves away from tower and if he does it right the E pushes her even further away from tower, turning it into a guaranteed kill for Jayce. The most success i had was to stay as far away from him as possible until level 3, then walk right up to him and start autoattacking until he combos, then QEW back on him and do as much damage as possible while his skills are on cooldown. As Jayce it's simple, wait for level 2, do ranged EQ->melee QE and then get some distance between you and her until your cooldowns are over. Repeat until you have won the lane. Irelia might outscale Jayce eventually but from my - admittedly limited - experience she gets dominated by Jayce in the laning phase and i haven't seen a single game where that wasn't the case. Unlike other strong early game champions, Jayce also has lategame utility so it's not a "just survive and then he'll be useless" situation either. Then again, maybe i'm just bad and spectate the wrong games. | ||
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