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On July 27 2012 06:11 Perplex wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 05:23 zulu_nation8 wrote:
never get hexdrinker, if you're vs a non AP top you shouldnt be getting any MR items until after lane phase. Armor blues don't make any sense. I don't see why you need so much regen, you have a lot of sustain through hitting creeps. It's true that at lower elo, lanes tend to trade more often and in worse ways, which is even more reason to get armor. But vs Olaf I don't think there's ever a period when he straight up outdamages you unlike say Jax. Regen makes sense only if for some reason you can't sustain off of creeps or you have to take way too much free damage, so for example vs good Kennens or Nids. Otherwise I can't think of a time when you should trade resist for sustain. I also wouldn't go philo vs a hard lane. Great advice, thanks. Can you elaborate a little bit on hexdrinker? it seems like great cost efficiency for what it does. I always prefer to buy wit's because Irelia likes AS more than AD, but if I can't afford it (2700 is kinda dumb), then hex seems like the next best thing.
Also, wit's end isn't 2700. It's 2150. The cost nerf only bumped it up 150 gold on combine.
That said, I tend to prefer ionic spark now over wit's. I understand that Ionic's HP isn't always as good as wit's resist, but in a game where you don't need MR as much, I think it'd be a good pickup.
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China26351 Posts
ionic is only good if you have trouble pushing and Irelia doesn't have that problem.
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Don't get ionic spark on Irelia.
I don't like AS reds for laning unless you're against a champion where you will have a prolonged trade with. In other words, not against Vlad, not against Jax, etc. etc.
You make W first always, but I've been maxing E second. The utility on that skill is crazy and let's you control lane from level 1. Q is really rarely a good option I would say as compared to how good the stun on E is, not to mention your Q is going to do lots of damage regardless of when you max it as long as you get AD.
Irelia is great for level 2 ganks btw. Grab E first.
I always go 21/9/0. Always balls deep. I have never met a person that I've played against (when I rank 1300/1400s and then when I play with scumbags 1600/1700) that just outright destroy me in trades.
I've never had trouble with Darius, but that's probably something along the lines of all the Darius's I've played being ridiculously bad. I can probably say that the Jax match up got easier after playing around with it, but Malph, Udyr, and Yorick are just dumb.
And to explain how to face Jax, never turn on W until his counter strike is down. If he wants to trade with you, your normal attacks still do pretty significant damage at early levels and Jax will probably still counter strike to get that stun off.
When that happens, q to a low health creep and kill it, then jump back and turn on w.
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China26351 Posts
Irelia has no use from higher levels of the offense tree. AS is for team fight as well, a trade is a trade, you E, auto a few times and Q, nothing about Vlad or Jax says you won't be able to get 3-4 true damage autos off.
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21 offense is fine. Extra damage, arpen, and the 21st point in the tree is fine for getting that extra damage when an opponent is low. It's not like the buffs in the defensive tree are all that great on her either, and getting anything in utility is just saying that you can't manage mana. CDR is honestly not that important on Irelia besides the cooldown on Q. W is almost always back before you need to trade again and E cooldown is fine since you rarely use it until you trade.
AS is fine, but I'm saying it's champion specific and I don't like it because I don't care about getting extra true damage autos off if I'm raping the guy with extra AD anyway, especially if it's a champ that can disengage and just run faster than I do, since I don't run movement quints. The true damage is great, but the actual extra damage you get on certain champions is negligible depending on who they are.
Vlad can disengage really easily, nor is he going to be willing to go into a long trade with you so he'll just back away anyway or just pool if he think he's in trouble. Jax you need to just do damage to him and the rarity of getting a lot of W's off on him if he's a smart player is unlikely, especially if you can't bait counterstrike well.
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What exactly would 21 in offense do for Irelia over going deeper into the defense tree? It just doesn't really make much sense. Your trading power in almost every lane matchup is largely dependent on your W level + AS, not your AD and Arpen. For most melee champions going deeper than 9/14 in offense doesn't help as much as going deeper into the defense tree because -2 minion damage and indomitable do so much for you in trading within lane.
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I honestly think that's overrated. I have yet to see Wickd run AS runes consistently on Irelia. I think there's good reason for that. It's because maximizing true damage potential with AS reds doesn't make up for the fact that good players will just GTFO whenever you turn on your W after the stun.
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China26351 Posts
CDR is great on Irelia. Executioner is obviously good but there's no point wasting 10 points in masteries you don't need just to get it. Lifesteal/AD/Apen on Irelia are all next to useless. An extra true damage auto from AS runes is huge in trades. Vlad cannot disengage very easily, if you E him and start autoattacking, he can pool immediately and have it on a 20 sec CD after which you can just Q to him and do more damage, or he can pool after you Q before which he already ate a full combo from you. Jax's counterstrike also has like a 20 second CD. Just by stunning someone with E you're guaranteed at least two autos. Mana regen is great on Irelia, if you are trading correctly you will need the regen in lane eventually.
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China26351 Posts
On July 27 2012 22:56 Zergneedsfood wrote:
I honestly think that's overrated. I have yet to see Wickd run AS runes consistently on Irelia. I think there's good reason for that. It's because maximizing true damage potential with AS reds doesn't make up for the fact that good players will just GTFO whenever you turn on your W after the stun.
You have a phage and a 2 second stun, please tell me how you are trading that you have trouble getting autos off vs anyone. Wickd has his preferences, doesn't mean you should blindly follow it. This is LgN Cruzer's Irelia page vs AD damage bruisers: AS/Armor/AS/AD.
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CDR is overrated. I've rarely had a problem where I've said "Man, if only that thing came up half a second earlier", becauase that just meant I underestimated damage. AD, Apen is fine on Irelia, and extra lifesteal is always nice, especially when you have early dorans and W turned on. Extra true damage is overrated depending on your level of w and the reduced AD you get from lack of Apen/AD and AD runes. I'm not saying it's bad, but I'm saying someone do the numbers and see significant it actually is, because I've tested both and I don't feel good with AS reds. Ever.
A vlad doesn't just pool. He runs fast, is not going to cs at close quarters, and trying to gib ranged minions just to get to him forces you to lose CS and waste Qs needlessly and mana.
On the Jax's counterstrike. Yes, you get two autos, but that's regardless of AS. And you're not going to be trading with Jax while your W is off because he does a lot of damage, and even if it comes up, there are specific problems in the lane itself that keeps Jax safe like creeps.
Mana regen isn't necessary. Just control your mana and know when to trade.
On July 27 2012 23:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 22:56 Zergneedsfood wrote:
I honestly think that's overrated. I have yet to see Wickd run AS runes consistently on Irelia. I think there's good reason for that. It's because maximizing true damage potential with AS reds doesn't make up for the fact that good players will just GTFO whenever you turn on your W after the stun. You have a phage and a 2 second stun, please tell me how you are trading that you have trouble getting autos off vs anyone.
Are we still talking about early laning, because what I'm referring to is the first few levels where you haven't even gone back to buy stuff yet.
By the time I get a phage, the lane has mostly been decided by then anyway, unless I opt for phage first on my first buy, which I usually never do anyway.
And again, how much are you actually getting from one more true damage auto, because it seems to me that people are just thinking that as long as you hit as many Ws as possible, victory is guaranteed, but when you factor in the reduced AD, I'm not seeing the biggest payoff.
Again, I've rarely seen Wickd ever go with AS reds in any lane matchup. Since he's the only reason why I play the chick, I'm going to just keep copying whatever runes he uses. I think they make more sense than just getting AS reds built exclusively for my W.
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On July 27 2012 22:56 Zergneedsfood wrote:
I honestly think that's overrated. I have yet to see Wickd run AS runes consistently on Irelia. I think there's good reason for that. It's because maximizing true damage potential with AS reds doesn't make up for the fact that good players will just GTFO whenever you turn on your W after the stun.
Yet Wickd never runes more than 9 into offense on Irelia, for a reason. I've seen him do 1/22/7 and the like. He always puts the most points into the defense tree and he never goes heavy into offense. If you're going to use Wickd as the Irelia authority then you're still wrong.
AD marks are stronger in the earlier levels as it makes last hitting easier and you do more damage in trades since low lvl W sucks dick for trades since it's damage, health regen, and your lack of items make it very lacklustre. But once you hit like lvl 7 the AS marks are way stronger.
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China26351 Posts
lol why do you ever need apen if you're only trading with W? How does a vlad magically run fast when he has lower base mspd and you have a gap closer, a stun, and a page? How is extra true damage ever overrated? When you trade with Jax, let's say you eat the full counterstrike, get stunned, then afterward you stun him, attack, he leaps to creep, you dash to him. How do people magically run away from you when again, you have a dash, stun and phage? Mana regen is necessary, I don't know what game you're playing.
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Yet Wickd never runes more than 9 into offense on Irelia, for a reason. I've seen him do 1/22/7 and the like. He always puts the most points into the defense tree and he never goes heavy into offense. If you're going to use Wickd as the Irelia authority then you're still wrong.
The runes and masteries are different topics, so I don't think I'm wrong because Wickd tends to play more defensive. Wickd goes crazy masteries by stocking up on points I rarely ever catch because I'm looking away, but that doesn't discount the fact that the guy doesn't go AS, and I think there's a good reason for it.
But once you hit like lvl 7 the AS marks are way stronger.
Maybe, but regardless of what timing AS marks are stronger lanes are usually decided in the early levels, and I'd like to decide my lane by my level 6 engage anyway, so I'd much prefer the marks.
Besides, since I get Tri-force and wits end in every game anyway, runes specced towards AS don't really matter much to me.
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Runes and masteries work together.
Da fuk dude.
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China26351 Posts
Irelia is weakest pre maxing out W and strongest after, which is lv9. How do you decide lane with lv6 engage when you're still weaker than most bruisers? This argument is really dumb, please show us a replay where someone magically runs away from you every time you try to trade.
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lol why do you ever need apen if you're only trading with W
But you're not. W does extra true damage, but you're still hitting the dude with your basic attacks. The APen is nice because if you have AD marks you're going to do more damage. Simple as that.
How does a vlad magically run fast when he has lower base mspd and you have a gap closer, a stun, and a page?
Just read what I wrote. Vlad isn't going to be in close quarters with you anyway, so trying to find good engages on a vlad is difficult if the vlad knows what he's doing and stays close to ranged minions. Even if you gib a ranged minion, Vlad can easily run back and if you engage, you're losing creeps. I just don't think that's smart laning, even if you out trade him.
How is extra true damage ever overrated?
Again, read the post. I said it's overrated because people make such a big deal about AS reds when I don't see certain people that I follow Irelia on using those reds.
When you trade with Jax, let's say you eat the full counterstrike, get stunned, then afterward you stun him, attack, he leaps to creep, you dash to him
A Jax is never going to engage you first unless you're getting ganked. The counterstrike is used specifically because Jax wants to negate the W damage.
Mana regen is necessary, I don't know what game you're playing.
It's not as long as you control your mana properly. Do I have mana problems? Definitely, but that's because I'm bad, not because the mana regen isn't enough to sustain me in lane.
Da fuk dude.
The two discussions were based on two different things. Even if we were talking about the two working together, I don't think grabbing AS reds and 21 in defense is a good idea either because it's like trying to maximize your offensive capabilities while sitting back and being panzy.
Irelia is weakest pre maxing out W and strongest after, which is lv9. How do you decide lane with lv6 engage when you're still weaker than most bruisers?
What...have you tried trading with a champion at level 6?
It's fine. People underestimate how good Irelia is regardless of W.
This argument is really dumb, please show us a replay where someone magically runs away from you every time you try to trade.
You keep saying magically run away, but that's not the argument. I'm saying they can disengage really easily. If your argument is that you get AS runes because you want one extra W hit, that's fine. I don't really mind it. But I'm saying there certain champions where their skills and lane dynamics make it difficult to get a lot of Ws off anyway, so it doesn't matter.
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China26351 Posts
There's a thing in league called efficiency which means maximizing your strengths with the least resources. That's why no bruisers who unless are built for APen like J4 or Wukong spec 21 offense because it's simply a waste. You're never getting AD or APen items, attack damage is probably less than 1/2 of your auto attack damage with W turned on vs enemies who have armor. Why on earth do you need 6 flat apen? If you don't understand this you need to take a moment and think about how the game works.
Vlad is an easy matchup for Irelia.
Jax will definitely engage on you because he's stronger.
You don't sound very experienced with Irelia, just trust what I say...
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There's a thing in league called efficiency which means maximizing your strengths with the least resources. That's why no bruisers who unless are built for APen like J4 or Wukong spec 21 offense because it's simply a waste. You're never getting AD or APen items, attack damage is probably less than 1/2 of your auto attack damage with W turned on vs enemies who have armor. Why on earth do you need 6 flat apen? If you don't understand this you need to take a moment and think about how the game works.
When you put it this way, it just sounds like a bunch of speculative reasoning to me. I'm going to just say this: since AS reds are probably good for later in the laning phase, because w isn't that great early. I like to decide my lanes pre-6, and I do that just fine with Irelia.
Vlad is an easy matchup for Irelia.
I agree, but it doesn't involve attacking him when he's all the way in the back. A Vlad knows that his only advantage is poking Irelia until Revolver where he can just heal himself back indefinitely, so engaging him isn't smart depending on how the lane goes. I just don't think it's a good habit of just saying "well, go attack" when your opponents creeps are going to be behind you.
Jax will definitely engage on you because he's stronger.
So when he's stronger....you try to trade with him? o_O I'm not getting the logic here.
And for the record, I don't think Jax is stronger than Irelia. I think he's manageable, nor will he open up his attacks with counterstrike unless he thinks he can really outdamage you regardless of the trade.
In which case, unless you're good at estimating damage, you should be getting out anyway.
You don't sound very experienced with Irelia, just trust what I say...
I'm not trying to be confrontational here....but if you're going to say I'm not that experienced with her, I don't really care, because as I kill people in lane all the time with her, I'm not that high ELO. In fact, I'm quite low and all my reasoning comes from playing people that are honestly really bad (relative to higher ELO). But how experienced are you? Why should I be trusting what you say, when there are other examples I can pool from?
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China26351 Posts
Well I tried to reason with you purely theoretically but it seems because we play at different elos, our experiences are too different to be compared. You should trust me because I play Irelia and vs her a lot at a reasonable elo where people are generally solid enough at laning to be able to draw correct conclusions from. I also pay close attention to how better players spec and play her. I've also played her since she first came out, she was my most played season 1.
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Sure sure sure.
Okay okay okay.
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EPT
