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On April 19 2013 01:18 xDaunt wrote:
The problems with AP Jax are 1) it is super expensive to be effective, 2) you're going to be squishy, and 3) AP items are generally gold-inefficient for Jax when compared to hybrid items.
The best damage items for Jax are undoubtedly triforce, gunblade, BotRK, nashor's, and rageblade. Generally, pick 3, then add randuins and spirit visage. Of course, build order will vary each game.
Any of the 3 items you listed cost way more than lich bane + deathcap and does less damage to boot, not to mention the damage being interruptible instead of WQ doing 1000 damage instantly, and then every W chucking them for another 500-600 damage every few seconds, and this is completely ignoring his E and R.
Admittedly, your early-mid game will be fairly shit if you go AP jax, but he's not really a hero you want to play if you're not looking to hyper-carry the game, and as long as you don't pick him into a hard lane he can just farm.
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On April 19 2013 01:18 xDaunt wrote:
The problems with AP Jax are 1) it is super expensive to be effective, 2) you're going to be squishy, and 3) AP items are generally gold-inefficient for Jax when compared to hybrid items.
The best damage items for Jax are undoubtedly triforce, gunblade, BotRK, nashor's, and rageblade. Generally, pick 3, then add randuins and spirit visage. Of course, build order will vary each game.
Well, you're not really squishy against AP champs because of the free MR you'll be getting from your ult.
And Triforce/Gunblade/BorK are all pretty damn expensive as wel.
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On April 19 2013 01:48 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 01:18 xDaunt wrote:
The problems with AP Jax are 1) it is super expensive to be effective, 2) you're going to be squishy, and 3) AP items are generally gold-inefficient for Jax when compared to hybrid items.
The best damage items for Jax are undoubtedly triforce, gunblade, BotRK, nashor's, and rageblade. Generally, pick 3, then add randuins and spirit visage. Of course, build order will vary each game.
Well, you're not really squishy against AP champs because of the free MR you'll be getting from your ult. And Triforce/Gunblade/BorK are all pretty damn expensive as wel.
AP champs generally aren't the problem for Jax. ADC's and bruisers focusing him down are.
Yeah, Triforce/gunblade/botrk are all expensive, but my point is that it takes a larger investment into pure AP items to get good damage on Jax than is required for hybrid items.
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It doesn't make any sense. If you're worried about ADC/Bruisers focusing him down then going triple hybrid damage item is going to get you killed before you even get any damage off.
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On April 19 2013 01:29 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 22:55 obesechicken13 wrote:On April 17 2013 12:32 krndandaman wrote:On April 17 2013 10:10 obesechicken13 wrote:
I think I should try out full AP Jax. He seems more like an autoattack damage dealer but as was mentioned on the previous page he gets CCed a lot and it's hard to make full use of autoattacks in melee range.
I've played a lot of Kayle and Jax and I think Jax is heavily favored. All he needs to do is rush BotrK or Mallet or even Triforce.
You can't get away from Jax if he starts his E. It doesn't have a long windup. Then he jumps to you and there is no way in hell you will outtrade him with brush and everything else. It's a losing fight. He wins trades easily with his E and slows, and does just fine before he gets slows. I've mostly played from the Kayle side though, and if I do manage to get free harass then I'll do alright for one laning session. Then teamfights start and he's really much scarier than you due to all the free stats he gets. you can get away easily. the moment he starts spinning you should W away. you're hitting him from E range anyways so there should be no excuse for him getting on to you other than flash. if he flashes you can use your own flash as well or just pop ult which has lower cd. also you can get free harass on jax during laning with q You must play shitty Jaxes. I've played the matchup at least a dozen times by now. It's a 1 second windup on the spin. Are you telling me you can see the spin, react in your third of a second, watch Jax jump in the air for a third of a second, and then move out of Jax's movement and stun radius of ~180 in that last third of a second? He doesn't even need the stun to trade. I haven't even factored in ping. And I have well over 100 games as Kayle by now. Those midgame fights are brutal against a Jax. I have had decent 60 ish win rates as both. Jax beats anyone who is autoattack reliant because he gets 3 seconds of invulnerability to their damage on a level 1 ability that deals up to 100 damage. idk I could say the same to you haha. 1 second is a longgg time. also, you can kinda tell when jax is planning to jump on you and trade because he normally won't be in jump range (I can Q harass/ E him). all I need to do is literally W myself and run away the moment I see him start the E. the split second it takes for him to E then Q onto me is enough time for me to W myself and run. even if he does manage to get on me I can run away after taking an auto or two then kite him cause his E is on cooldown. a good kayle will never directly trade with jax unless he's super low. you make it sound like kayle fights jax 1v1 in the middle of a team fight or something lol. all you need to do is R properly and attack from the back/kite. I'd argue kayle has as much utility/use in a teamfight, if not more, as jax. jax does beat up anyone who is aa reliant but those guys are usually a) melee b) lack of ranged poke Kayle has both range and poke.
Except his jump outranges Kayle's E and Q so yeah... no free harass unless Jax is too scared and used his jump on a creep. And as was mentioned, it is physically impossible to just herpaderp walk away from the stun unless, again, the Jax doesn't know his Q range. I don't know why you continue to argue that the matchup consists of Kayle throwing free Q's and Es at Jax.
If you're going to call Kayle's Q poke then just about every champ in the game has poke. Olaf. Chogath. Yorick. Pantheon. Nunu. I used to think the same way back when I played bad Jaxes but the matchup is heavily Jax favored.
AP Kayle does a lot of damage in early game fights but that's just the way ranged autoattackers scale. And to Jax, you're just an Ashe with no Arrow in midgame and who scales worse. Not every fight is a 1v1 as Kayle but more of your fights that decide the game will start out small in the midgame and end small. Most midgame fights are not 10 second long 5v5s.
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Thing is that Jax can trade with W-Q, then duck into a brush. If he tries to sustain a fight against kayle he's going to get beaten pretty hard. That costs so much mana though and since Kayle's going to be pushing her lane, Jax is going to just farm under his tower. Later on it depends how well each itemized but I'd give the advantage to Jax so long as he can control the brushes properly.
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If you're going to use W, might as well tap a minion, Q, hit and W for the reset/proc post-6. But seeing how just pushing the wave with E is more or less equal to natural mp5 for Kayle, I'm not sure for how long he'd be able to sustain that. Plus, as you said she only needs to push out of the bushes and tada.
As for trading, it's not about walking away from the stun, but Kayle using the slow from Q and speed-up from W to disengage pretty easily unless you have a slow yourself to counteract that (if you use cutlass she'll still disengage once it wears off, but you'll get to hit more in the meantime). I believe Kayle with E on will outtrade Jax regardless pre-6, unless he jumps her with his passive already stacked.
(And yes, Iceball and Spear Shot are poke, in a laning setup that is.)
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On April 19 2013 11:40 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 03:18 obesechicken13 wrote:On April 19 2013 01:29 krndandaman wrote:On April 18 2013 22:55 obesechicken13 wrote:On April 17 2013 12:32 krndandaman wrote:On April 17 2013 10:10 obesechicken13 wrote:
I think I should try out full AP Jax. He seems more like an autoattack damage dealer but as was mentioned on the previous page he gets CCed a lot and it's hard to make full use of autoattacks in melee range.
I've played a lot of Kayle and Jax and I think Jax is heavily favored. All he needs to do is rush BotrK or Mallet or even Triforce.
You can't get away from Jax if he starts his E. It doesn't have a long windup. Then he jumps to you and there is no way in hell you will outtrade him with brush and everything else. It's a losing fight. He wins trades easily with his E and slows, and does just fine before he gets slows. I've mostly played from the Kayle side though, and if I do manage to get free harass then I'll do alright for one laning session. Then teamfights start and he's really much scarier than you due to all the free stats he gets. you can get away easily. the moment he starts spinning you should W away. you're hitting him from E range anyways so there should be no excuse for him getting on to you other than flash. if he flashes you can use your own flash as well or just pop ult which has lower cd. also you can get free harass on jax during laning with q You must play shitty Jaxes. I've played the matchup at least a dozen times by now. It's a 1 second windup on the spin. Are you telling me you can see the spin, react in your third of a second, watch Jax jump in the air for a third of a second, and then move out of Jax's movement and stun radius of ~180 in that last third of a second? He doesn't even need the stun to trade. I haven't even factored in ping. And I have well over 100 games as Kayle by now. Those midgame fights are brutal against a Jax. I have had decent 60 ish win rates as both. Jax beats anyone who is autoattack reliant because he gets 3 seconds of invulnerability to their damage on a level 1 ability that deals up to 100 damage. idk I could say the same to you haha. 1 second is a longgg time. also, you can kinda tell when jax is planning to jump on you and trade because he normally won't be in jump range (I can Q harass/ E him). all I need to do is literally W myself and run away the moment I see him start the E. the split second it takes for him to E then Q onto me is enough time for me to W myself and run. even if he does manage to get on me I can run away after taking an auto or two then kite him cause his E is on cooldown. a good kayle will never directly trade with jax unless he's super low. you make it sound like kayle fights jax 1v1 in the middle of a team fight or something lol. all you need to do is R properly and attack from the back/kite. I'd argue kayle has as much utility/use in a teamfight, if not more, as jax. jax does beat up anyone who is aa reliant but those guys are usually a) melee b) lack of ranged poke Kayle has both range and poke. Except his jump outranges Kayle's E and Q so yeah... no free harass unless Jax is too scared and used his jump on a creep. And as was mentioned, it is physically impossible to just herpaderp walk away from the stun unless, again, the Jax doesn't know his Q range. I don't know why you continue to argue that the matchup consists of Kayle throwing free Q's and Es at Jax. If you're going to call Kayle's Q poke then just about every champ in the game has poke. Olaf. Chogath. Yorick. Pantheon. Nunu. I used to think the same way back when I played bad Jaxes but the matchup is heavily Jax favored. AP Kayle does a lot of damage in early game fights but that's just the way ranged autoattackers scale. And to Jax, you're just an Ashe with no Arrow in midgame and who scales worse. Not every fight is a 1v1 as Kayle but more of your fights that decide the game will start out small in the midgame and end small. Most midgame fights are not 10 second long 5v5s. alaric's post up there has good points ^ olaf,nunu and pantheon do have "pokes" for laning phase to harass with. how is that every champion in the game? doesn't matter if his jump out ranges E and Q. I'm usually not in E and Q range anyways (farming minions with my E and he is usually behind his own minions). The moment I see him try to get past our minions/see E spinning I can W away to safety. I have more than enough time. Even if he does get on me, I can immediately Q him for the slow and W away. At most he'll get 1 auto attack on me while my minions block his path/attack him. While his E is on CD i'll harass him so badly and he can do nothing about it. A good kayle shouldn't lose to a jax. I'd still rather have a kayle in the midgame than a jax. Especially if kayle won the lane (which he should).
By that logic I can stand by your minions and zone you out forever. If I stand there you have to back off for fear of a jump.
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Just 1v1 already, this argument is going in circles.
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Grudge match lol. We're even in the same division and Tier. Kayle vs Jax... 1v1s are weird though.
Flash ignite in top lane?
Loser has to...Oh god. I don't want this too be too cruel.
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BO1? What format?
I'm obesechicken13 on NA and I generally play better on the weekends.
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don't BO1, just lane for a bit and you should be able to feel who has the upper hand (or who is bad at leagues). Make sure you come back and tell the results and why!
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On April 19 2013 13:05 obesechicken13 wrote:
Grudge match lol. We're even in the same division and Tier. Kayle vs Jax... 1v1s are weird though.
Flash ignite in top lane?
Loser has to...Oh god. I don't want this too be too cruel.
Someone can always join me in Noobville
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Why are people talking so much about kayle v. Jax? its...incredibly rare, and 1 jungle gank = gg if ur good.
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On April 19 2013 14:17 cLutZ wrote:1 jungle gank = gg if ur good.
Buy a ward
Kayle and Jax are both kinda rare to be seen top lane recently, but back in Jax's heyday, Kayle was aslo seen top a lot (this was back when Kayle was often built IEPD)
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On April 21 2013 05:29 krndandaman wrote:just to update, I lost GG I had a decent pre6 early game as Kayle but after 6 Jax just rolled me. my skill is also not up to par  we pretty much came to the conclusion that pre 6 jax has a hard time and if kayle gets a kill it can snowball. but if jax manages not to fall too behind while not dying, he will take over the lane after 6 and dominate. so... its more closer to skill matchup I think. 'twas fun 
Yeah it was fun and I agree on the points. Thank you for coming back to the thread.
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EPT
