EPT[Champion] Vayne - Page 6
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
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broz0rs
United States2294 Posts
On September 07 2011 03:57 r.Evo wrote: Erhm. Why do people still max E? Everytime I go Q > W > E (e at level 1) I feel so much better. Yeah I have to concur with this one. I don't necessary find myself using E all that much considering it knocks back and most game situations the opposing champ isn't near a wall. Once your core items are complete, W is just way too powerful. | ||
Flicky
England2670 Posts
On September 07 2011 04:03 broz0rs wrote: Yeah I have to concur with this one. I don't necessary find myself using E all that much considering it knocks back and most game situations the opposing champ isn't near a wall. Once your core items are complete, W is just way too powerful. Well, if you're maxing E and you hit someone into a wall they lose loads of health and it's almost a guaranteed kill. I prefer it heavily, especially if I put a ward in my brush. | ||
MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
1) What is the Vayne playstyle like? I'm aware you want to be in their face and procc-ing those Silver Bolts. But do you like try to duel the other AD Carry, go after tanky dps, or just shoot anyone you can safely see? I'm assuming Ult+2sec restealth thanks to Q changes her positioning and target priority a lot. 2) I know 21/0/9 is standard for ADs, but I've also heard of 21/9/0. Is the 9 in Def Tree SoS or Nimbleness? SoS sounds right, but her mana pool doesn't seem large enough to support it. Nimbleness+Passive sounds like a lot of MS as well. 3) Skill Order: Ever since the E nerf, do you still max it first? I saw Westrice leaving it to pretty late on stream once. But didn't see exact skill order. Q I assume you want to max first/second since 2 sec Tumble is good. So it's a matter of W or E and if you want to do W>E, E>W or W=E. 4) Runes. Are AS Yellows and Blues worth it? Currently I just run armour+mres. I assume Red+Quints follow APen+AD respectively. 5) Item Build. When do you got FOTM Wriggles early, and when do you stack Dorans? I feel like Wriggles is so good since it's massive cost effective and free wards are great but stacking Dorans is also really good. And if you do both you delay the first BF Sword item so much. Additionally, what BFSword Item should I go? BT sounds about right since it gives so much raw AD for Q+E and lifesteal is important. But I might be wrong. Also, is PD worth it, or is double Zeal better? Okay, that's quite a lot to ask, but I'd appreciate a better insight into Vayne before I drop a mass of IP on her. Thanks in advance!  | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On September 07 2011 07:15 MoonBear wrote: So, ever since the Monster Hunter Skin came out I've been wanting to learn Vayne since I should learn another AD Carry. (Monster Hunter is good btw) My main go-to AD is Ashe who is a pretty passive laner and not in-your-face aggressive like other AD Champs. I also never got a chance to play Vayne in her freeweek. So I have some questions before I drop a whole load of IP on her+any runes I might need. 1) What is the Vayne playstyle like? I'm aware you want to be in their face and procc-ing those Silver Bolts. But do you like try to duel the other AD Carry, go after tanky dps, or just shoot anyone you can safely see? I'm assuming Ult+2sec restealth thanks to Q changes her positioning and target priority a lot. 2) I know 21/0/9 is standard for ADs, but I've also heard of 21/9/0. Is the 9 in Def Tree SoS or Nimbleness? SoS sounds right, but her mana pool doesn't seem large enough to support it. Nimbleness+Passive sounds like a lot of MS as well. 3) Skill Order: Ever since the E nerf, do you still max it first? I saw Westrice leaving it to pretty late on stream once. But didn't see exact skill order. Q I assume you want to max first/second since 2 sec Tumble is good. So it's a matter of W or E and if you want to do W>E, E>W or W=E. 4) Runes. Are AS Yellows and Blues worth it? Currently I just run armour+mres. I assume Red+Quints follow APen+AD respectively. 5) Item Build. When do you got FOTM Wriggles early, and when do you stack Dorans? I feel like Wriggles is so good since it's massive cost effective and free wards are great but stacking Dorans is also really good. And if you do both you delay the first BF Sword item so much. Additionally, what BFSword Item should I go? BT sounds about right since it gives so much raw AD for Q+E and lifesteal is important. But I might be wrong. Also, is PD worth it, or is double Zeal better? Okay, that's quite a lot to ask, but I'd appreciate a better insight into Vayne before I drop a mass of IP on her. Thanks in advance! 1) Vayne is somewhat similar to.. hmmmm... some mix between MF and ezreal would be the only close thing. I feel her kit is very balanced overall and a load of fun to play. Target priority is the same as for any AD carry aka "Shoot the highest priority target without getting yourself into danger". - However, you're fucking strong once the fight dies down. Basicly Vayne is unstoppable when her team is ahead in fights and slight worse than most other ADs if the team is behind imo. 2) Personally I run 21 0 9 on most of my AD carries. Find out what works for you. I'm going to play around with nimbleness and see how it goes. 3) As I just said, I feel Q > W > E, E at lvl 4 much more reliable than E max. Maxing Q gives you consistent, strong harass while maxing E gives you insane burst IF you hit them into a wall. Prolly both are viable. Someone should find out what Chaox does. 4) Personally I run my runes depending on how I expect the lane to turn out. If I expect to bully them (e.g. Vayne+Janna/Taric/Alistar) I like AD yellows (moar burst than AS). I stopped using AS blues cuz I feel like mres/level just too good. Sidenote: I think Janna > Taric > Alistar for preferred people to lane with. Janna/Vayne is incredibly strong because Vaynes harass is the most predictable of any AD carry out there (Q = instashield = it hurtz, never waste shield, always hurt, huehuehue.) 5) Never get both Wriggles and DBlade stack. Personally I run the DBlade stacks to dominate my lane and Wriggles if I feel behind/need to catch up. Wriggles offers more sustain and some defense, DBlade more bang for the buck. Vayne = high AD ratios = BT. IE works fine, too but I feel it delays AS items for too long and that's why I dislike it. zeal BT zeal works. BT -> PD works. BT -> Wits End Works (if you ran 15% Mpen in offense for some reason (hint: being able to rush BR if needed) You can usually delay LW for pretty long cause of your W, sometimes even a 2nd BT or PD makes more sense than LW. Random sidenote: Basic Vayne harass combo is auto, q closer, finish w stack with e, run back Basic combo at 6 is ult in brush, tumble out, E into wall, auto, Q, auto, rape. | ||
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little fancy
Germany2504 Posts
Before the fight starts and pokes are traded, you wanna hit targets available just like with any other ranged AD. 2) In duo lane (where you usually are with a healer) I personally go 21/0/9 especially if I am on blue team where you can quickly leave the lane to get red buff from your jungler (1 point utility mastery is just too good) and the +EXP mastery fits Vayne's aggressive play: kill enemy creeps a little faster, get lvl 2 earlier and then harass the enemy ranged AD with AA -> Tumble -> AA combo for surprising extra damage with W proc or - if they stand close to the wall and CV is ready (works best if you communicate via Skype / TS3 / Vent with your support) take E over W at lvl 2 and pin them for heavy burst damage. Either way forces them to play passive the next minutes. In solo lane (as Westrice did and played top) 21/9/0 is the common choice since every little bit lane sustain helps and the extra armor / mr helps, too. +EXP mastery and utility mastery can not be used to their full potential at top if you ask me. 3)I've tried both and must say that I still like E more for the early burst damage where it almost always leads to a kill if you can pin them to a wall after earlier harass. But I can see the point in W and max it first, too, if you are vs. a melee (just as Westrice did in his game solo top; he uploaded that btw): it is too easy to harass whenever they come for a last hit since you passive and tumble will always let you proc W once they are in AA range. However, with a strong duo laner bot (Taric for stun or Janna for slow/knockup) that allows you to position correctly, maxing E for the heavy damage vs squishy chars (that your ranged AD opponent probably is) is my preference. Maybe one can say E vs. ranged and W vs. melee? I dunno yet. 4) In bot lane I use AS blues. Combined with offensive tier 2 AS mastery you get a nice +10% AS boost which is noticeable. This is an even stronger choice if you plan to max W. Armor yellows are perfectly fine bot, and if you go solo top and you know you go vs any AD bruiser they are probably the best choice, too. For MR blues I prefer flat ones in solo lanes against magic damage dealing opponents but didn't find scaling ones to be that useful: sooner or later magic burst champs are going to nuke you either way even with Banshee's Veil so 11 more MR at lvl 18 won't save you from dying. Reds and quints are pretty much set: ArPen and flat AD. 5) This, again, depends on what you plan to max. Boots should be Zerk Greaves as often as possible since you rely on Ult + Q for superior positioning and avoiding CC (tbh: if the enemy gets to CC you, you will mostly get blown up even with -33% CC duration from merc treads anyways). If you go E > W (maxing Q second) you wanna go for more raw damage: naturally, the first BF sword item will then be a Bloodthirster. It sclaes really nice with E and Q and the life steal is important on Vayne (I always miss it when I take another BF item frist [see below] for a good reason ). But sometimes, even without maxing W, Black Cleaver can be a stronger choice if the game goes really well for you: -45 Armor reduction is boss in an favourable midgame and tightens your advantage, your opponents melt at that time maxing W or not. Builds that max W go for BC anyways. However, both follow up with Phantom Dancer into one Defensive item (my choices are BV / GA depending on enemy main damage). Using the E-build, I will finish with IE / LW (selling BC for LW if I did build BC insteat of BT first [see above]). Going the W-build, I use a second Zeal completing to Phantom Dancer after I put a Bloodthirster in between (as I mentioned earlier life steal is important for Vayne and you need some damage besides your W proc) but don't nail me on that one since I'm rarely maxing W first (what might have to do with the fact that I just don't play solo top Vayne very often; my premades stick to the meta and just won't let me try it out lol). | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
The thing about maxing Q is that maxing it early doesn't actually do a whole lot in lane, the reduced CD isn't really necessary for a harassment skill, you don't have much AD so the extra 10-20% doesn't mean nearly as much as E doing more damage. As for W I think it's an obvious one point wonder. People say %true damage imba but if you're going a typical AD build rather than gtrsrs attack speed build there's no reason to put more than one point in it early. Even with an attack speed BR build a lot of your damage is still physical rather than magical or true. I think people's main problem with Vayne is that they don't know how to land E correctly. E max into wall just leads into so much damage it's ridiculous, not maxing E because you're not good with the champ really isn't an excuse in this situation. From what I've seen pro vaynes smash people into walls at the time so when I fail at it I'm pretty sure it's just because I'm a baddie. | ||
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Psyonic_Reaver
United States4342 Posts
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
As for W I think it's an obvious one point wonder. People say %true damage imba but if you're going a typical AD build rather than gtrsrs attack speed build there's no reason to put more than one point in it early. Even with an attack speed BR build a lot of your damage is still physical rather than magical or true. I played vayne for a couple of weeks while she was free and I always prioritized W. Most AD carry builds go for BF into boots, but I found vayne's power lay in her agility and ability to really confuse enemy players by constantly moving around quickly and altering positioning with level 1 Q and E. She's not the sort who kind of paces on the spot like ashe to get CS, she can run all over the lane and be aggressive and maxing W maximizes that potential. drop an auto+condemn on someone and they are going to back the F up, or if you wallshot them they're gonna lose a lot of health. I found building dorans-boots-dorans-zeal-greaves-cleaver-dancer-edge more successful than the plain old edge-dancer-whisper cookie cutter AD carry build on her and it let me destroy opposing carries and bruisers in the laning phase because of how powerful W is for damage output. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On September 07 2011 12:55 Thereisnosaurus wrote: I played vayne for a couple of weeks while she was free and I always prioritized W. Most AD carry builds go for BF into boots, but I found vayne's power lay in her agility and ability to really confuse enemy players by constantly moving around quickly and altering positioning with level 1 Q and E. She's not the sort who kind of paces on the spot like ashe to get CS, she can run all over the lane and be aggressive and maxing W maximizes that potential. drop an auto+condemn on someone and they are going to back the F up, or if you wallshot them they're gonna lose a lot of health. I found building dorans-boots-dorans-zeal-greaves-cleaver-dancer-edge more successful than the plain old edge-dancer-whisper cookie cutter AD carry build on her and it let me destroy opposing carries and bruisers in the laning phase because of how powerful W is for damage output. How on earth can you claim that a skill based on the percentage of their total health (hint: not a lot early) and therefore scales as the game progresses is stronger than skills which linearly give more base damage. o.O | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
How on earth can you claim that a skill based on the percentage of their total health (hint: not a lot early) and therefore scales as the game progresses is stronger than skills which linearly give more base damage. o.O well, to start with it doesn't. It does a base amount of true damage PLUS an amount equal to a percentage of total health. level 1 is 20+4%(generally around 40 total, the equivalent of maybe 55 PD), level 4 which you can get pretty early does 50+7%. Given most champs around level 7 have 1000ish health without items, that's 120 bonus damage about the time you'd get your BF sword on a good day, and be doing something around 125 damage. A level 4 tumble will add 60 ish damage, that will then be reduced to something like 40 by champ armor, less if they actually bought or runed for it. Now, it's fair to say that since even level 1 bolts is still pretty good, and if you were working Q you'd still get that, when you factor in everything at the point you get a BF sword they're probably around equal, and leveling Q wins out because it gives you more mobility, ofc at the cost of mana. But if you go for a greaves-zeal opening, the attack speed scales infinitely better with a leveled W, plus this means you will have level 2 boots and zeal speed passive significantly earlier than the BF sword equivalent. Landing W combos with level 1 boots only is tricky but dooable. With an extra 57 movement on your opponent it is trivial. @two_down: This is true, but it is such a powerful threat you can zone incredibly well, particularly if you go with the speed build above. If an enemy gets within AA range of you while your tumble is up that's a guaranteed combo. If you get your greaves-zeal before they get boots 2, which happened a few times to me, you don't even really need the tumble. stutter step 1-2-condemn. With a leveled up W that combo does ridiculous damage. | ||
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Brees
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
she is probably the weakest of all ad carries in terms of laning, not sure who you'd be able to zone...Ashe if she's bad maybe? thats about it part of the reason Q and E are leveled before W if not most of it is because vayne is a piss poor laner....I would love to be able to max W 2nd after E or Q depending on the lane but reality is you rarely get the chance unless they play super passive or have a shitty laning support like janna that makes them unable to trade blows. | ||
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On September 07 2011 14:29 Brees wrote: lol zoning with vayne she is probably the weakest of all ad carries in terms of laning, not sure who you'd be able to zone...Ashe if she's bad maybe? thats about it part of the reason Q and E are leveled before W if not most of it is because vayne is a piss poor laner....I would love to be able to max W 2nd after E or Q depending on the lane but reality is you rarely get the chance unless they play super passive or have a shitty laning support like janna that makes them unable to trade blows. Are you stuck 5 weeks in the past? Janna is a top notch bot lane support right now. Good lanes are Vayne + Taric, Janna, Sona for example. With Taric you go for stun > burst > retreat > stun > kill. With Janna and Sona you let the support harrass and if the enemy makes the slightest mistake you hunt them down and kill them. | ||
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Brees
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On September 07 2011 17:29 spinesheath wrote: Are you stuck 5 weeks in the past? Janna is a top notch bot lane support right now. Good lanes are Vayne + Taric, Janna, Sona for example. With Taric you go for stun > burst > retreat > stun > kill. With Janna and Sona you let the support harrass and if the enemy makes the slightest mistake you hunt them down and kill them. janna developed a heal in the last 5 weeks sans ultimate? Don't condescend without reading. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Sponge75
England194 Posts
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little fancy
Germany2504 Posts
Play passive, keep up in lvls and call for a jungler gank. Vayne at lvl 6 wit the cc help of your support / jungler can pretty much kill any squishy AD like Caitlynn. Use flash + Tumble for a surprising Condemn into the wall (make sure you have vision if you pin them into the wall next to the sidelane brushes) and see your enemy melt. After you scored the kill you should be back into the game | ||
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
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