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I'm gonna pretty this up later but I noticed we didn't have a vayne thread so i wanted to start one.
Essentially there are 3 schools of thought on how to build vayne which I'm sure will cause endless debate ITT
1) the "proc" ideal. with tumble having an absurdly low cooldown, you gain massive benefits from the triforce/sheen damage procs. the core here is something like D-blade(s) -> boots -> sheen -> triforce -> damage. this makes vayne a bursty assassin who is massively frontloaded.
2) the "massive attack damage" school. since tumble also grants a massive AD boost with a good ratio, other people tend to think that stacking attack damage will not only make tumble's attack boost more effective than a measly sheen proc, but will also increase her sustained damage. proponents of this theory use something like D-blade(s) -> boots -> bloodthirster -> infinity edge
both of these schools of thought fail to address the fact that vayne is the squishiest champ in the game. while the frail vampire hunter DOES have godly amounts of kiting and escaping abilities (stealth champs are always balanced), the fact remains that if you eat even a single slow, you will be chain-CC'd and taken down. they also seem to gloss over the fact that vayne has by far the most powerful skill in the game, her W. both these builds revolve around tumble which is just insanity to me. therefore, in conjuncture with another summoner, i have refined another build for vayne that i think am positive is a better build 99% of the time
3) the "attack speed + tank, aka correct" build. this is what my guide will be focusing on.
this build revolves around vayne's W, silver bolts. silver bolts deals percent-of-MAX-health-based TRUE damage which is just a silly concept on any champ, let alone a ranged champ with a repositioning skill. essentially you want to get enough attack speed that you are getting those critical third procs as quickly as possible to shred tanks and squishies alike, and enough tankiness to stay alive while doing it.
Skill order:
Q W W E W, R > W > Q > E
it's important to take tumble first so you can get out of level 1 ganks and to help you nab last hits so you can speed your way to level 2. at level 2 you take silver bolts and just simply force your lane opponent out of lane. attack -> tumble attack -> attack will hit for 300+ at level 2, which no champion can retaliate against except like... leblanc or annie with a stun up.
W is maxed first to increase the base damage and the % damage on silver bolts. Q is maxed next to up survivability. a level of E is taken at 4 to help finish combos and to pin people against walls/push them away, but the damage increase is not important enough to level it early.
R when necessary, of course 
Item build:
regrowth -> double philo -> boots -> wit's end -> PD/starks -> mallet/warmogs -> atmas
open with regrowth and a pot. your range, speed, and tumble will help you avoid most harass. when you are getting harassed, the imba HP regen of regrowth will let you top off your HP quickly, and it will also negate creep damage when you make your moves and draw aggro.
regrowth turns into philo, and grab another philo and boots on your first trip back as well. this mana regen, combined with your stupid low mana costs, means you'll be able to tumble nonstop on cooldown and get in a ton of harass.
first big item is wit's end. it grants you some much needed MR and the key component of this build - attack speed. recurve first if you can't buy it in one trip.
next item is up for debate. i've traditionally built phantom dancer as my next item. my thoughts are that the movespeed increases survivability but it's really wasted offensively since vayne has no problems catching anyone. so you only get half value out of the movespeed. the crit synergizes with atma's later, but it's not really the focal point of the build. the AS is the main thing you want, so i've started considering stark's instead. it gives good attack speed and armor reduction, and the lifesteal goes a long way in increasing your EHP, especially in a tanky build (props to BEAR Barbsq for pointing this change out to me)
third item is your HP item. by the midgame, bruisers will be trying to close the gap and squash you so you need some HP to mitigate this. there are two options here. i prefer frozen mallet. the slow just exacerbates vayne's ability to chase and kite, but warmog's is also an option, which is what such excellent summoners as ObamasLeftHand runs.
final core item is atma's. this will give you the armor that you need to survive, combined with your absurd HP. it'll also add some nice damage at this point, and if you got PD earlier, the crit will be pretty high at this point.
as for boots, i prefer mercs for the MR, but against low-stun teams, i'll also run zerkers and turn one of the philos into an elesai's miracle.
what this build is NOT
this build is not a tower pushing build. you have next to no damage, you rely entirely on your W to deal damage. W does not affect towers. you won't be taking potshots lategame at towers and crushing them.
this build is not a dueling build. if you play a normal against another vayne, it's very likely that a triforce build will crush you before you even get to your second W proc. this build isn't meant to be bursty. it's meant to shred tanks that chase you in teamfights, give you enough EHP to survive a caster's burst, and make your kiting supreme in skirmishes.
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Thanks for this. I haven't played Vayne yet, but from what I've seen from others playing her and from looking at her skill set, your guide seems to be very reasonable and well-suited to the current trend of stacking tanky dps champs (at least at my level anyway).
Nice to see a run-down of other popular play-styles too. Cheers!
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From what i saw when i played her (admitedly, not much) I don't think you need W maxed asap. Vayne is a champion that does already stupid amount of damage (MF level) and maxing Q gives you alot of damage in the early game.
Your W scales with their hp and armor so you need it maxed when those strat being relevant : not before level 14 in general...
Also i liked bloodrazor alot on her, going whitsends, malady, frozen mallet, bloodrazor, warmogs dropping the malady for a defense item if necesary (banshees or randuins)
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real build:
regrowth/pot -> philo -> zerkers -> wit's end -> atma's -> warmogs -> banshee's. upgrade philo to the tenacity thing mid game and then late game sell it for IE. win every game 1v9.
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well malady is definitely the wrong item to build on her in 100% of cases. if you MUST get an additional attack speed item, sword of the divine is what you'd build instead.
bloodrazor is also a waste on her. it's like an inferior version of her W. she is like teemo in that she favors attack speed and indirect damage, but unlike teemo, she has %-based true damage, so she doesn't even need to build damage anywhere else
also i get what you're saying about not maxing W, but it really does make a difference. not only is the %-damage going up when you level W, but the base damage of silver bolts also increases. it's not a ton, but it's like 20 damage per level and 1% additional true damage. this means that you're gaining like a minimum of 35 damage per level of W, which is unconstrained by cooldowns. and since you're maxing attack speed with this, that's a LOT of damage compared to tumble IMO. feel free to correct me on the numbers if i'm wrong, i'll update the OP with the exact numbers from the LoL homepage and stuff later
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United States47024 Posts
On May 31 2011 05:37 gtrsrs wrote:
both of these schools of thought fail to address the fact that vayne is the squishiest champ in the game. while the frail vampire hunter DOES have godly amounts of kiting and escaping abilities (stealth champs are always balanced), the fact remains that if you eat even a single slow, you will be chain-CC'd and taken down. they also seem to gloss over the fact that vayne has by far the most powerful skill in the game, her W. both these builds revolve around tumble which is just insanity to me. therefore, in conjuncture with another summoner, i have refined another build for vayne that i think am positive is a better build 99% of the time
Vayne's baseline survivability is actually comparable or superior to many other champions that have worse means of escape than she does. Her base survivability is better than champs like Ashe/Lux/Annie/Anivia (though the latter 2 build Catalyst and have forms of survivability in their skills), and is just barely behind Corki/Caitlyn/TF.
I do agree that people overlook the sheer power of her W, but I think you overstate how squishy she is, when her survivability is totally in line with other AP/AD carries.
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i will try this out
vayne is free till tomorrow..
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sorry yango. i tend to overstate my points to get them across without doing actual research
DISCLAIMER: I HAVEN'T BOTHERED TO LOOK UP VAYNE'S SURVIVABILITY NUMBERS COMPARED TO ANY OTHER CHAMPS. SHE IS VERY SQUISHY, THOUGH PERHAPS NOT TECHNICALLY THE SQUISHIEST
what i'm trying to get at is that she's just really really easy to kill if you catch her. granted she's very hard to catch but once you do it's lights out
also anivia is definitely not comparable to other champs in survivability due to egg. lux has a much greater effective range than vayne and even ashe has a long-range poke which vayne lacks. i think she's therefore "squishier" than those champs.
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Best Vayne build is to have a teammate pick Nunu and press W and click on you.
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yeah nunu is a crazy good teammate for vayne for sure. i will add that to the OP since it's so incredibly synergistic. W boosts her killing power 100-fold, E and R protect her from nasty bruisers while she in turn protects nunu with her E. they are a top-tier team for sure
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
Using Ashe as an example of a typical Range AD Carry and comparing against Vayne:
- Both have same lvl 1 hp, Vayne gains 4 more hp/lvl than Ashe.
- Same Amour, Mres, Mana, HP Regen and Mana Regen stats
- Same base lvl 1 AS, but Ashe gains slightly more per lvl
- Because Vayne's abilities innately scale her damage output than Ashe, she has 50 less range to compensate
- To synergise with her R, Q and Passive, she has 5 more movespeed
So she's still pretty squishy. At lvl 18 with no runes/masteries/items you'll still have sub-2k hp. The main core design aspect is her ability to chase someone down and almost always catch them thanks +40MS from her passive and another +120 from Ult.
On May 31 2011 06:36 crate wrote:
Best Vayne build is to have a teammate pick Nunu and press W and click on you.
Yeah, +65% AS boost, with Nunu's slow and even more MS means that nothing will ever escape from you.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
this is bad. Instead of being lazy and just wanting to sit and right click, use tumble and condemn properly and 1v5 their team with IE build.
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Is there a reason you aren't picking up a banshees veil? Warmogs that late seems almost silly, although atmogs is a very good combo. I like a frozen mallet for kiting people while giving a huge boost to hit points. You obviously need no help chasing people down, but you're going to get jumped on in team fights.
I played a madreds -> Starks -> banshees -> mallet build that seemed to work out pretty well. I think Wit's is far superior to madreds in retrospect since it's so much cheaper, but either choice could be good seeing as madreds will give you some early armor while wits gives MR.
W first is the way to play if you aren't building AD though. Tumble is based on total damage if I'm not mistaken. Could be base damage, but either way you should get larger returns from W as long as you're getting 3 hits on your harass.
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On May 31 2011 07:29 Brees wrote:
this is bad. Instead of being lazy and just wanting to sit and right click, use tumble and condemn properly and 1v5 their team with IE build.
your post is bad. instead of being lazy and just barking a one liner use reasoning or at least test this out because i'm pretty sure you haven't tried it
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On May 31 2011 06:36 crate wrote:
Best Vayne build is to have a teammate pick Nunu and press W and click on you.
Nidalee is also crazy good
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United States47024 Posts
On May 31 2011 07:29 Brees wrote:
this is bad. Instead of being lazy and just wanting to sit and right click, use tumble and condemn properly and 1v5 their team with IE build.
TBH at this point I think Vayne is too OP to properly determine what's "best" on her. Pretty much anything ranged carry-ish works on her because of how flexible her kit is.
I think it's good to try things right now, and narrow down something well-geared toward her kit once she gets some nerfs. I definitely don't think the IE build is the end-all-be-all at this stage--no champ had an ideal build 2 weeks after release.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On May 31 2011 07:51 freelander wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 07:29 Brees wrote:
this is bad. Instead of being lazy and just wanting to sit and right click, use tumble and condemn properly and 1v5 their team with IE build. your post is bad. instead of being lazy and just barking a one liner use reasoning or at least test this out because i'm pretty sure you haven't tried it
you're telling me my posting is bad when you post some corny mimic post?
Rofl
like your post literally accomplished nothing...waste of bandwidth. what is your point even? I said the build is shit so give me a counterargument as to why it isnt. no reason to build tanky on an assassin. real garbage Euros
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I don't know why you would make anything apart from standard ranged carry items (ie/bc/bt+pd+lw).
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On May 31 2011 08:14 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 07:51 freelander wrote:On May 31 2011 07:29 Brees wrote:
this is bad. Instead of being lazy and just wanting to sit and right click, use tumble and condemn properly and 1v5 their team with IE build. your post is bad. instead of being lazy and just barking a one liner use reasoning or at least test this out because i'm pretty sure you haven't tried it you're telling me my posting is bad when you post some corny mimic post? Rofl like your post literally accomplished nothing...waste of bandwidth. what is your point even? I said the build is shit so give me a counterargument as to why it isnt. no reason to build tanky on an assassin. real garbage Euros
I don't think you use the words "literally" and "nothing" properly. By the way, are you always this mad, Mr. Authority?
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On May 31 2011 08:38 freelander wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 08:14 Brees wrote:On May 31 2011 07:51 freelander wrote:On May 31 2011 07:29 Brees wrote:
this is bad. Instead of being lazy and just wanting to sit and right click, use tumble and condemn properly and 1v5 their team with IE build. your post is bad. instead of being lazy and just barking a one liner use reasoning or at least test this out because i'm pretty sure you haven't tried it you're telling me my posting is bad when you post some corny mimic post? Rofl like your post literally accomplished nothing...waste of bandwidth. what is your point even? I said the build is shit so give me a counterargument as to why it isnt. no reason to build tanky on an assassin. real garbage Euros I don't think you use the words "literally" and "nothing" properly. By the way, are you always this mad, Mr. Authority?
so the shitty euro further couldnt think of a good counterargument and resorts to a 2nd meme, l0l
glad we settled that this build is trash, until you come up with a proper argument cya euro shitty
User was temp banned for this post.
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You build tanky with attack speed because her W is so broken that you don't need damage items.
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For a while I have been trying a different approach to her W that I would like to get some opinions on.
Opening Dorans shield, Like regrowth it gives nice hp regen, adds armor to help with with minion aggro from tumble harass and gives you some more hp which she really lacks.
Buy Pickaxe on first shop. While her W gives really nice late game damage as hp and armor goes up its less so early. Pickaxe adds some AD to help last hitting and tumble harass.
Boots next, normaly go for zerkers since once you get hit by cc your normaly dead anyway.#
Sword of the Divine after boots. The Attack speed helps with W, and as she wants to attack for longer periods the proc adds a more damage.
From here the build tends to differ a lot depending on matchups and enemies but generaly tanky. Even in late game situations with only a pickaxe and SotD as dmg items she does a lot. Sometimes I get lifesteal and build towards stark.
Mostly pick up a negaton and chainvest to turn into a banshee and GA. If the game hasnt ended yet turn the pickaxe into a MBR and watch tanks melt.
Masteries I go 9/21/0
Runes armor yellows, flat MR blues and I have actualy been changing between AD and armor pen for reds/quints. not sure yet which is like more.
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On May 31 2011 07:29 Brees wrote:
this is bad. Instead of being lazy and just wanting to sit and right click, use tumble and condemn properly and 1v5 their team with IE build.
nah, this is definitely the proper way to build her
i made it clear in my build that this still relies on positioning and kiting, but the fact that you won't get blown up if you get within 1000 range of any other hero is really nice, it's a quality that no other carries have (except atmogs sivir)
i'm p sure you haven't tried this build yet. like i said 95% of people i see building vayne do shit like last whisper -> ie or triforce -> damage, even on high level streams. those builds are nice for killing things quickly, but i'll gladly trade upfront damage for sustained damage on a carry every time, especially at the additional bonus of not dying when enemy soraka looks at you funny
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Personally, I like to start Philo as OP stated, into Zerkers, into C&D for Crit Damage and AS. After that, I'll build an IE. (Unless I somehow get enough cash to outright buy an IE before C&D.) Then I'll build PD and finish with something to help me survive, Banshee's usually.
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What is your argument against a "standard teemo build"?
I'm doing great with Wits End -> zeal -> Bloodrazor -> Frozen Mallet -> More tankstuff. The AS/% health combo from BR + w is insane, i like the zeal thrown in for MS and a little more AS.
Or is it just your opinion that W is so OMGWTF broken that everything besides Wits/PD is "too much damage" compared to the survivabiltiy you get from more tank items earlier?
PS: If I'd use your build I'd go (Philos and boots aside)
Wits end -> Zeal -> Starks -> Malet/Warmogs -> Atmas -> NOW finish PD. Pretty sure it's more effective this way. Maybe finish after Starks or the HP item, but definitly not the full PD that quick.
PPS: My #1 argument against damage items since release is that your ult gives you damage. You simply press R when a Tristana would press Q. While I feel that more damage is overkill I feel Bloodrazor adds just that nice amount of damage you love when fighting without ult.
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Tryed OP's Philo opening and even 2x Philo game .
With such build i felt like all upcoming items are way to delayed and even more it delays vaynes's great snowballing with AS + W so i lost quite mutch of my presence during fights as without AS items i had hard time landing 3x W while keeping safe distance ( Delayed lv2 boots ).
My core so far with vayne atm is : Boots + 3HP pots ( Mobility to harass with AA + Q + W proc / pots to heal ) -> finish Zerkers ( faster harass + W procs ) -> Zeal -> 2nd Zeal ( My reasoning is : Zeal gives me AS for W and MS for escape/harass Crit is nice bonus . I buy 2x Zeals coz gettin PD straight away is expensive and with vayne i want to get upgrades all the time not save up for something)
From Zerkers -> 2x Zeal i have follow 2 routes
1) Game goes well and i'm not focused or i can still survive focus and kite // Get BF and build Either infinity or Black Cleaver etc to punish enemy bad teamplay/scater
2)Enemy team has burst assasin and or rest of them also go for me // OP's atmogs work like a charm starting with Chain vest + Giants into mogs into atma
Regarding sheen // early game thumble doesn't have such short CD to activate sheen and Q spam for Sheen procs drained my mana eventualy. Also AP tome + Mana crystal delays once again vaynes potential of harass
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United States37500 Posts
Philo is a pretty terrible item for Vayne. She dominates just about every matchup with Tumble harassment. Sure Philo allows her to stay in lane longer but Vayne's strength is forcing her enemy to base or die at 6+Exhaust.
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i would max q over w, even with your w-centric build, simply due to the difference in lane presence that each offer. having w as a primary dmg source early on means you're extremely predictable, whereas q offers faster front loaded dmg. Not to mention the fact that q tapers off when w starts becoming more effective, so instead of having q be a strictly escape/chase mechanism the entire game, you can have it as a dmg source in the laning phase while having it relegated to escape/chase mid-end game.
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boots + 3 pots-> 1~2 doran swords-> zeal->IE(bf sword-> pick axe-> crit cloak)-> dancer
armor pen reds
attack speed yellows
attack speed blues
flat ad quints
flat armor or flat mr on yellow or blue if u need it in lane
q w e than
skill order max R>E>Q>W
basic vayne combos
roll->hit->knock back->land another hit while the target is being knocked back
easiest way to pull off 3 hit combo
ult from brush->roll->pin to wall->hit->roll->chase~
real basic vayne combo
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On June 09 2011 00:15 locodoco wrote:
boots + 3 pots-> 1~2 doran swords-> zeal->IE(bf sword-> pick axe-> crit cloak)-> dancer
armor pen reds
attack speed yellows
attack speed blues
flat ad quints
flat armor or flat mr on yellow or blue if u need it in lane
q w e than
skill order max R>E>Q>W
basic vayne combos
roll->hit->knock back->land another hit while the target is being knocked back
easiest way to pull off 3 hit combo
ult from brush->roll->pin to wall->hit->roll->chase~
real basic vayne combo
Materies?
"You can thank me later~"?
=(
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On June 09 2011 02:49 locodoco wrote:
21/0/9
u can thnk me l8r~
Damn
I was running 0/30/0 and I felt vayne was so weak.
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god damn is this bitch overpowered
I hate saying it but all it takes is getting a single ulted condemn off at level 9 to bring someone from 100-20, then you've already lost the fight.
I've been playing her following Chaox build and it honestly seems unfair.
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Thanks to the OP for pointing out Warmog's + Atma's on Vayne. I don't agree with the rest of the build, but working towards those two items after you've completed Trinity Force and Ionian Boots gives you almost everything you need: health, armor, critical chance, and damage. Finish with a Last Whisper and you're a beast.
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United States37500 Posts
On June 09 2011 04:08 DJEtterStyle wrote:
Thanks to the OP for pointing out Warmog's + Atma's on Vayne. I don't agree with the rest of the build, but working towards those two items after you've completed Trinity Force and Ionian Boots gives you almost everything you need: health, armor, critical chance, and damage. Finish with a Last Whisper and you're a beast.
fuk da wat... Etter?
Edit: gawd Mogwai, such a downer. Just surprised to see Etter in this subforum. I haven't seen him post in agesssss.
Better? zz
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if gtrsrs made that post, he'd get temp banned. if you're gonna joke around/flame someone or whatever you're trying to do their neo, can you at least do it legibly?
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Vayne by Chaox:
http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=1270.
IMO going full aspd without AD still isn't that great, don't fall into the trap of "must find a synergy with W". You don't always lock onto one target for 3 shots, also why abuse the W for "i kill them in 10 shots with 2,5 shots per second" when you can kill them in 5 shots with 1,5 shot per second  (yeah i didn't do the real research but neither did anyone who thinks that going mostly aspd on her is good).
Tanky items are useful only when you don't trust your teammates and still it's quite easy for vayne to use them as meatshields without them knowing
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On June 09 2011 04:19 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 04:08 DJEtterStyle wrote:
Thanks to the OP for pointing out Warmog's + Atma's on Vayne. I don't agree with the rest of the build, but working towards those two items after you've completed Trinity Force and Ionian Boots gives you almost everything you need: health, armor, critical chance, and damage. Finish with a Last Whisper and you're a beast. fuk da wat... Etter? Edit: gawd Mogwai, such a downer. Just surprised to see Etter in this subforum. I haven't seen him post in agesssss. Better? zz
I'm still around. You'd laugh if you saw my TL view: everything is collapsed except General and Sports & Games.
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United States37500 Posts
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Tanky items are useful only when you don't trust your teammates and still it's quite easy for vayne to use them as meatshields without them knowing
Had several games where enemy team had akali ....
1)I was fed with good dmg . Team fight starts . Akali jumps from bush/ledge etc . I'm either dead or run back to base
2)Akali was fed. Same as Nr1 only i was always dead.
Shroud makes her untargetable by condemn and tanks don't see anything either to get her off me ... Atmogs let me live and add nice dmg / crit
I also build Mogs against heavy burst like Blanc.
boots + 3 pots-> 1~2 doran swords-> zeal->IE(bf sword-> pick axe-> crit cloak)-> dancer
AD route is totaly viable and works well aslong enemy team makes mystake of not attacking vayne.
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Against Akali you can just drop a vision ward as soon as she drops that shroud. Of course she might take you down anyways but it makes her much less annoying.
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On June 09 2011 14:59 NightWalks wrote:Show nested quote +Tanky items are useful only when you don't trust your teammates and still it's quite easy for vayne to use them as meatshields without them knowing Had several games where enemy team had akali .... 1)I was fed with good dmg . Team fight starts . Akali jumps from bush/ledge etc . I'm either dead or run back to base 2)Akali was fed. Same as Nr1 only i was always dead. Shroud makes her untargetable by condemn and tanks don't see anything either to get her off me ... Atmogs let me live and add nice dmg / crit I also build Mogs against heavy burst like Blanc. Show nested quote +boots + 3 pots-> 1~2 doran swords-> zeal->IE(bf sword-> pick axe-> crit cloak)-> dancer
AD route is totaly viable and works well aslong enemy team makes mystake of not attacking vayne.
ad route is totaly viable and works well aslong as u dont suck with vayne and get focused by the other team
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On June 09 2011 14:59 NightWalks wrote:(...) Show nested quote +boots + 3 pots-> 1~2 doran swords-> zeal->IE(bf sword-> pick axe-> crit cloak)-> dancer
AD route is totaly viable and works well aslong enemy team makes mystake of not attacking vayne.
Bad players often make the mistake of "don't focus the tanks, go for carry" so they rush the carry, carry keeps the distance and his allies rape the entire enemy team without casualties.
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ad route is totaly viable and works well aslong as u dont suck with vayne and get focused by the other team
So many ppl in LoL have the ''You suck'' mindset .... newer considered that enemy might be more skilled ? To realise that enemy in particular game is stronger and adapt accordingly/play more cautious isn't trait of being unskilled. Continuing to build offence and hurrr durrr feed on the other hand would be .
Topic is about fact that vayne even if built tanky with AS still maintains presence in game / team fights .
Against Akali you can just drop a vision ward as soon as she drops that shroud. Of course she might take you down anyways but it makes her much less annoying.
Yeah had this thought and tried once . Ended up dead but at least my team poped akali.
More reasonable would be to get oracle on tank ,but without premade it's not that easy.
Anyways this is already kinda of topic // TL DR DPS focused vayne's bane is bursters
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On June 09 2011 17:08 NightWalks wrote:Show nested quote +ad route is totaly viable and works well aslong as u dont suck with vayne and get focused by the other team So many ppl in LoL have the ''You suck'' mindset .... newer considered that enemy might be more skilled ? To realise that enemy in particular game is stronger and adapt accordingly/play more cautious isn't trait of being unskilled. Continuing to build offence and hurrr durrr feed on the other hand would be . Topic is about fact that vayne even if built tanky with AS still maintains presence in game / team fights . Show nested quote +Against Akali you can just drop a vision ward as soon as she drops that shroud. Of course she might take you down anyways but it makes her much less annoying. Yeah had this thought and tried once . Ended up dead but at least my team poped akali. More reasonable would be to get oracle on tank ,but without premade it's not that easy. Anyways this is already kinda of topic // TL DR DPS focused vayne's bane is bursters
.....i don't wanna bring elo into this,but i play in 2.1k+ elo and i scrim with or against clg and tsm regularly.no1 builds tanky on carrys cuz positioning is how u survive as carrys not fucking buying tanky items.
building tanky items only hinders ur damage
if u think tanky vayne with AS maintains presence in game try playing with or against a Ad vayne that knows how to position properly and compare the how much more presence the ad vayne brings
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TL DR DPS focused vayne's bane is bursters
Take exhaust; your problem is solved and you save 3000 gold.
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On June 09 2011 17:19 dnastyx wrote:Take exhaust; your problem is solved and you save 3000 gold.
This.
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On June 09 2011 17:19 dnastyx wrote: + Show Spoiler +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Show nested quote +
TL DR DPS focused vayne's bane is bursters
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take exhaust; your problem is solved and you save 3000 gold.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This.
kk i agree that it's a good solution. guess i have been too used to runing ghost/flash that didn't notice that vayne's pasive & ult will make up for droping ghost.
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Actually people run flash+exhaust on like every AD carry nowadays, not just vayne
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I've given quite some thought to Vayne as all her skills are extremely strong and it's hard to find an optimal way to build her. You can justify skilling Q or E or W first and depending on your build and playstyle you can do comparable damage with either. One thing that drives me nuts, though, is building sheen on her.
Vayne doesn't need mana (low costs, manage mana correctly) and doesn't need AP. You're paying 100% for the proc and the possible route to Triforce. Since everybody calls me crazy, I decided to just run the numbers and show how it's an inferior choice:
I went with lvl 9 stats as I'm assuming boots start + item rush.
+ Show Spoiler +Lvl 9 stats with sheen
Base damage: 79
Q damage: 59.25
E damage: 90 + 100
Lvl 9 stats with pickaxe + long sword
Base damage: 114
Q damage: 85.5
E damage: 107.5 + 117.5
Damage of Q -> E -> auto (without | with wallstun)
Sheen: (79 + 79 + 59.25) + (90 | 190) + (79) = 386.25 | 486.25
AD: (114 + 85.5) + (107.5 | 225) + (114) = 421 | 538.5
Damage of Q -> auto x2
Sheen: (79 + 79 + 59.25) + (79) + (79) = 375.25
AD: (114 + 85.5) + (114) + (114) = 427.5
I went with maxing R > Q > E > W, as I'm certain sheen users will go for Q. I also realize the AD build costs 130 gold more, but I'm using long sword which is a pretty inefficient item. W is not included in the damage because it's not affected by sheen or AD.
In conclusion, unless you're ONLY hitting Q and not autoattacking / comboing at all, sheen is worse. You could go triple doran blade for slightly more cost and have better damage AND extra doran stats, or you could just rush big AD items and do even bigger damage. The real problem is that if you start sheen you want to finish triforce, which I'm sure loses to comparable AD items as well, because you're only augmenting Q while AD augments autos + Q + E.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:44 Lanzoma wrote:I've given quite some thought to Vayne as all her skills are extremely strong and it's hard to find an optimal way to build her. You can justify skilling Q or E or W first and depending on your build and playstyle you can do comparable damage with either. One thing that drives me nuts, though, is building sheen on her. Vayne doesn't need mana (low costs, manage mana correctly) and doesn't need AP. You're paying 100% for the proc and the possible route to Triforce. Since everybody calls me crazy, I decided to just run the numbers and show how it's an inferior choice: I went with lvl 9 stats as I'm assuming boots start + item rush. + Show Spoiler +Lvl 9 stats with sheen
Base damage: 79
Q damage: 59.25
E damage: 90 + 100
Lvl 9 stats with pickaxe + long sword
Base damage: 114
Q damage: 85.5
E damage: 107.5 + 117.5
Damage of Q -> E -> auto (without | with wallstun)
Sheen: (79 + 79 + 59.25) + (90 | 190) + (79) = 386.25 | 486.25
AD: (114 + 85.5) + (107.5 | 225) + (114) = 421 | 538.5
Damage of Q -> auto x2
Sheen: (79 + 79 + 59.25) + (79) + (79) = 375.25
AD: (114 + 85.5) + (114) + (114) = 427.5 I went with maxing R > Q > E > W, as I'm certain sheen users will go for Q. I also realize the AD build costs 130 gold more, but I'm using long sword which is a pretty inefficient item. W is not included in the damage because it's not affected by sheen or AD. In conclusion, unless you're ONLY hitting Q and not autoattacking / comboing at all, sheen is worse. You could go triple doran blade for slightly more cost and have better damage AND extra doran stats, or you could just rush big AD items and do even bigger damage. The real problem is that if you start sheen you want to finish triforce, which I'm sure loses to comparable AD items as well, because you're only augmenting Q while AD augments autos + Q + E.
To be fair, if you're playing Triforce Vayne, you'd probably get Phage+Zeal before Sheen. Your numbers aren't wrong, and I still don't think Triforce compares to, say, BT+DBlades, but Sheen vs. Pickaxe+Longsword is a skewed comparison that's not really relevant.
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How is it not relevant? Why would you get Phage+Zeal before Sheen? That's a 2k+ investment on stats that are marginally useful on a carry/assassin. The comparison would be even worse vs an AD build.
I don't think the comparison is skewed either. I simply took items that gave pure AD to compare with Sheen proc, in terms of cost-efficiency. Any other stats would benefit either item path in exactly the same way, so it's moot.
A skewed comparison would have been 3 dblades vs Sheen, which is so unfair it's not even funny.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:07 Lanzoma wrote:
How is it not relevant? Why would you get Phage+Zeal before Sheen? That's a 2k+ investment on stats that are marginally useful on a carry/assassin. The comparison would be even worse vs an AD build.
You'd get Phage or Zeal first because they don't blow 835 gold on stats that do nothing for Vayne. From a DPS perspective, the only part of Sheen that does anything is the proc (granted HP, slow proc, and move speed aren't DPS stats easier, but they're also easier to factor into relevant discussions).
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I'm assuming we're talking about early game.
I don't see any reason to build either Zeal or Phage when I could have 2 dblades instead.
Zeal is a good item, but it's effectiveness goes up as your AD does, and early game you don't have enough damage to make it jawsome. The speed boost is unnecessary because Vayne has no trouble chasing with passive or passive + ult.
Phage is inferior statwise, the redeeming feature is the (unreliable) slow, which again Vayne doesn't need because chasing is not an issue.
Afterwards, no combination of Zeal/Phage/Sheen (pick 2) is going to be better than 2 dblades + BF Sword, and the cost difference is about 100-200 gold.
Honestly, there's no reason to build sheen as it's cost inefficient by itself, and if you intend to make it a triforce, it's cost inefficient because so many stats are superfluous to Vayne's kit and AD scales much better than the proc.
What is it about these comparisons that doesn't satisfy you?
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So the real question is: how do YOU build Vayne?
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My item build is similar to Chaox's, but in my skill order I maxed Q>W>E. I switched to maxing E>Q>W like Chaox does and holy shit it makes a huge difference. It accomplishes my early to mid-game goals (farming enemy champions, duh) way better than Q>W>E. I feel so dumb now. X_X
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On June 14 2011 08:54 GiygaS wrote:
So the real question is: how do YOU build Vayne?
TL;DR: Like Chaox
I only play Vayne bot with babysit, as I think that's where she's extremely retardedly OP. The reason for this is how fragile Vayne is, any (decent) strong solo laner will hurt you harder than you can hurt him before level 6. With that in mind...
I run 21/0/9 with offensive rune setup. You want all the damage you can get because you'll be kept alive by your babysit, and cc > condemn into wall is GG. I start dblade if I can get away with it, boots + pots otherwise. You want to have boots, 2-3 dblades and BT/IE for mid game items.
I think the real question is, IE or BT? IE lets you spike even harder if you get a crit, but if you can keep BT stacks you'll do more dps (while still spiking really hard if you condemn into wall) until you get to a certain crit %. Both will make you a killing machine, so it's a matter of circumstance. I personally like BT more.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 17 2011 04:23 Lanzoma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2011 08:54 GiygaS wrote:
So the real question is: how do YOU build Vayne? TL;DR: Like Chaox I only play Vayne bot with babysit, as I think that's where she's extremely retardedly OP. The reason for this is how fragile Vayne is, any (decent) strong solo laner will hurt you harder than you can hurt him before level 6. With that in mind...
There's also the fact that unlike most other solo laners, she doesn't have an AoE farm/push skill to help her control where the lane is. Vs lane opponents with strong pushing power, she can't really do much to stop them from forcing successive creep waves to your tower.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
1-8-21 exhaust/flash
armor pen/flat armor/flat mr runes
rush IE
win every game
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sos necessary? I'd rather go 9/0/21 3 crit 1 exhaust 4 aspd 1 arpen
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On June 17 2011 09:08 R04R wrote:
sos necessary? I'd rather go 9/0/21 3 crit 1 exhaust 4 aspd 1 arpen
it's probably not necessary, but it does let you play a little more aggressively as you can regen much faster, shrug off harass and counter-harass, and stay in lane longer.
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After the nerf I am not having much success with AD builds, seeing as rank 5 tumble is now equal to old rank 2. Combined with lower e damage and not as much ad on ult, it seems w is her only strong point now.
I've been doing pretty well with Philo>boots>Wits>Madreds/Banshee's>SotD. Not too often you get all the way to SotD, but she can put out a lot of damage still with all that as, procs, and w.
I don't think she's a top tier character anymore, but definitely still very fun.
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The dmg nerf isn't that bad. Her dmg is still on par with other carries. Her utility kit is what really makes her OP with being able to target anyone she wants and chasing at 500+ ms
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England2662 Posts
On June 25 2011 20:56 R04R wrote:
The dmg nerf isn't that bad. Her dmg is still on par with other carries. Her utility kit is what really makes her OP with being able to target anyone she wants and chasing at 500+ ms
You can still tumble out invisible into a lane and E someone into a wall.
She's still decent.
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Lol not saying she isn't decent, just not as op as before, much easier to play as AS Vayne for me.
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Vayne is currently incredibly broken at the moment, and I enjoy abusing the hell out of her
This is my current build on her (not in order):
Mercury Treads
Phantom Dancer
Bloodthirster
IE or Madreds (If enemy team is squishy, I go IE. If they are rather tanky/beefy, I go Madreds)
Guardian Angel or Banshee (Depending on enemy team composition)
Black Clever
This leaves her with AT least 65% IAS, and lots of AD, and good Crit.
Red Buff for Slow (So I dont have to get Frozen Mallet)
I play her rather squishy but this gives her insane damage output, and she can melt enemy tanks like nothing. I have dodge seals and magic resist blue runes, so by late game, with mercury treads, she usually has about 90 magic resist even without Banshee's. I have about 100 armor with Madreds late game. Sometimes I try putting a Warmogs or Frozen Mallet for the health that she lacks)
I put 2 defensive summoner spells on her because she's so squishy and I make sure to use her skills to escape.
I've been experimenting with SotD and Last Whisper but I feel like armor penetration will not really affect her that much due to her W and her ability to melt even armor-stacking enemies late game.
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On June 25 2011 20:38 BlackHat wrote:
After the nerf I am not having much success with AD builds, seeing as rank 5 tumble is now equal to old rank 2. Combined with lower e damage and not as much ad on ult, it seems w is her only strong point now.
I've been doing pretty well with Philo>boots>Wits>Madreds/Banshee's>SotD. Not too often you get all the way to SotD, but she can put out a lot of damage still with all that as, procs, and w.
I don't think she's a top tier character anymore, but definitely still very fun.
You're exaggerating her nerf. Her "nerf" was barely a nerf. A few damage decrease on her E, 5 mana cost increase, some MS decrease and small range decrease. She's still incredibly overpowered
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Erh, she's "okay".
Raw damage stuff like MF/trist/Corki can now keep up with her in that category, also she doesn't dominate lanes hardcore anymore.
The main pro of vayne is that you can go 1-10 in lane and still carry later on due to trollololol W.
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Not to mention she is the best counter to alistar atm.
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Out of curiosity what do you guys open with in vayne/support bot lane?
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On July 17 2011 20:06 Advocado wrote:
Out of curiosity what do you guys open with in vayne/support bot lane?
D-blade or boots+3 depending on your support and their lane.
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Yeah i dunno if i agree with this build, u need some damage, ur true damage will only do so much, all u need is more AS then AD, but u still need a bloodthister or something.
like real dumb if just doing R.
But what do i know
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^ Agree with the guy up there. You still need some damage items
On July 17 2011 20:44 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 20:06 Advocado wrote:
Out of curiosity what do you guys open with in vayne/support bot lane? D-blade or boots+3 depending on your support and their lane.
I feel Doran's blade is a bad choice on Vayne. The extra health might be helpful but the life leech is negligent...especially because she has low damage / low AS at the beginning. I usually take a dagger (15% AS) with a health potion.
The initial AS boost affects her a lot, and makes her much stronger at level 1 than she would be otherwise.
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extra health, damage (and negligable lifesteal) is much more useful in lane than dagger. 15% aspd won't outdo the damage and health boost even if both of you (1 guy with dagger +pot vs guy with dblade) stand and shoot each other. the difference is even huger if one side has a support with a stun or a ad with a aspd steroid (trist mf etc.). esp since vayne has a autoattack reset which also allows you to get into position for a quick poke esp if they're going for a lasthit or w/e, dblade >> dagger
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Get Ad marks and Ad quints and flat armour seals
Buy boots1 +3 pots
Q -> auto attack -> E retreat
Boots provide great mobilty to perform a/m combo and get out of creeps to take less dmg in process + Arm seals further reduce dmg. Also boots opening helps vs ganks and pots are always welcome.
PS: Nerfs realy hit Vayne hard in early game .... with agressive play she runs out of mana zzzzz
while dmg nerfs on Q / E made gain from wasting mana just not worthwhile. Saving grace is W and if game goes on long enough even bad vayne can kill stuff.
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On July 19 2011 09:26 Navi wrote:
extra health, damage (and negligable lifesteal) is much more useful in lane than dagger. 15% aspd won't outdo the damage and health boost even if both of you (1 guy with dagger +pot vs guy with dblade) stand and shoot each other. the difference is even huger if one side has a support with a stun or a ad with a aspd steroid (trist mf etc.). esp since vayne has a autoattack reset which also allows you to get into position for a quick poke esp if they're going for a lasthit or w/e, dblade >> dagger
Look at it this way.
Doran's blade offers 3 things.
100 Health, 10 Damage, and 3% Life Leech
Dagger offers 15% AS. Health potion heals 200 health.
The 15% AS makes level 1 Vayne much stronger than the 10 Damage ever will.
We both agreed the 3% LL is negligent.
The 100 health is really important on Vayne, and is pretty forgiving but the health potion also forgiving.
Now, an early "complete" item Vayne's should build beside boots is an item that gives attack speed, like Zeal, Phantom Dancer, or Black Clever, etc.
Going with Dagger first means that your first complete item will cost 420 gold less than it would have. Going with D-blade first means that (since you don't sell your D-blade until you try to get your 6th item), you'll be 420 gold late than Dagger-first Vayne's in building your first AS complete item.
That's just how I see it.
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Nobody's just going to sit there and let you auto them. Rushing those items without a few d-blades means you're ridiculously squishy as well, and maybe you don't realize what a great value Doran Blades are. Sure, they don't build into anything, but they are well over-itemized to compensate. Every single stat is good for a physical DPS character, and the flat hp is incredibly valuable early on.
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So, anything new here regarding Vayne? I'm enjoying playing her right now as I have forgotten about her insane mobility and chasing power that satisfies my greed lol (in addition, her Aristocrat skin's prize got reduced to 520 RP so I just gave her a try again).
Looks like there is common sense about how to build her now:
D-Blade
Boots
1-2 extra D-Blade
Zerk Boots
Blood Thirster
Phantom Dancer
BV / GA depending on enemy damage diversification
IE + LW
I really like BT over IE for the first big damage item since life steal gives Vayne so much in the mid game IMO.
For masteries I'm running standard (?) 21/9/0. Summoner's Flash / Exhaust ofc.
Only thing I don't have a clue yet are my yellow runes.
AD Quints, ArPen Reds and flat MR blues are set for me so far but what to run on yellows? I've been testing pretty much every option and currently go with AD yellows to complete the Quints for a nice +11 AD bonus. With D-Blade opening I start with 77 AD on lvl 1.
Add to this Havoc and last hit mastery and I usually come out ahead CS wise in those boring 15 minute farm bot lane games while being able to instagib the opponent with R -> Exhaust -> Q -> E -> AA combo anytime when there is a strong ganker like Lee Sin or Mummy.
Armor yellows were a nice option tho but I felt like I had more succes with extreme AD opening.
Going to sleep, have a good night everybody.
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8748 Posts
First BF Sword item is really between BT and BC, never IE.
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i bought vayne, and asking for a refund. She is just sooo bad now
i havnt seen a good one at all, either in normal or ranked
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On September 03 2011 11:03 Morphx2 wrote:
i bought vayne, and asking for a refund. She is just sooo bad now
i havnt seen a good one at all, either in normal or ranked
elo bro?
taric vayne real terror bot.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 03 2011 11:03 Morphx2 wrote:
i bought vayne, and asking for a refund. She is just sooo bad now
i havnt seen a good one at all, either in normal or ranked
What?
You do realize that alongside Ashe and Cait, Vayne has been one of the most-picked carries in competitive events in the last month?
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United States37500 Posts
Vayne is still very popular. The AD that disappeared was Corki.
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On September 03 2011 11:09 NeoIllusions wrote:
Vayne is still very popular. The AD that disappeared was Kennen.
Fixed.
lawl.
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On September 03 2011 10:36 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
First BF Sword item is really between BT and BC, never IE.
why not IE? i never get BC, for armor pen i always go LW
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Vayne is the strongest AD carry in the late game.
If your opponents have a lot of HP max W and PH into BT. if they are squishy go for E with BT and BC.
I think that best support is taric or ali. (when u are playing with ali try to push from the start really fast so u can get lvl2 faster and then them.)
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I don't really like defensive items on Vayne.It remembers me of the Champion Spotlight Riot released on vayne.Phreak....or who played her used a doran blade->sheen->ionian boots->triforce->bloodrazor->Atma's Impaler->banshee->Last Whisper.
Why i don't like them? Because Vayne is ,if not the best,one of the best range AD carries in game.
The way i play her is pure burst.The games i play her in are normal pubs or ranked 1100+ ELO,so don't think i have a really high ELO .
I go doran blade->2x Doran Blade->boots->into either boots of speed or zerkers(depending on the mood and enemy setup)->BF sword->Black Cleaver->IE (by this time pubs usually end).If not i sell 1 doran blade for Bloodthirster.If the game is not done i add Triforce followed by Last Whisper.If the game last more then 45+ min (rare case scenario) i sell boots for Phantom Dancer.
I get Black Cleaver first,because if provides one of the best early dmg items.45 arp added to my 21 arp (from glyphs) ,that's 67 arp.Which is the armor of most mid game champs which didnt bought a armor item yet.I get 3 doran's blade because without them Vayne is really squishy and you will die several times.Also they provide you with 9% lifesteal which is almost what the Vamp Scepter gives you.And i keep them for a very long time and they off in the end.Sometimes i get Triforce after IE,sometimes Bloodthirster.Depends on game.Most of the times i get Bloodthirster because i sell 1 doran blade and my lifesteal drops to 6% which doesnt allows me to quickly heal after im wounded.And i can also stack the Bloodthirster pretty fast.
The reason i don't rush Triforce like most players,is that is a really expensive and little result in early game.Yes ,it stacks with tumble atk dmg bonus and it has slow.But triforce is the "jack of all trades,master of none item",it provides a little of everything but doesn't greatly improves a praticular stat.But once u have Black Cleaver/IE with/without Bloodthirster ,then the Triforce really starts to shine.Now you have the dmg necessary and NOW you need the slow,not the other way around .Most players build the slow first and the dmg later .
I get Last Whisper as last item,but on rare ocassions,like the enemy team not getting armour (it happens alot on pubs),i can skip it for Phantom Dancer sometimes.
As summoner abilities i get Cleanse/Flash.Why Cleanse? It frees me up from making merc threads and will SAVE your life 10k times.Vayne cannot be caught easilly without CC.The only thing that Cleanse doesn't dispel are supressions like Malz ulti or WW ulti,so look out for those.
Getting away from your team and then one of those 2 ulti's on you means certain focus from enemy and death.Flash is for emergency escape once your Final Hour/Tumble combo fails (used for escaping) or Condemn failed to deter that pesky champ who wants to slow you and then ripp you a new one .
I've seen Exhaust/Flash combo aswell.But Vayne is not Tristana or other AD carry.Unlike other AD carries,if a phisical melee comes to you,you're not instantly dead,you have 2 escape mechanisms .So i rather have cleanse to dispel his slow/CC so i don't get caught by the rest of the team ,then Exhausting him and trying to run away.The CC will still be there and his team will be even closer.
Let me explain the reasoning behind my build.From the AD carry like Ashe/Corki/Caith/Ez and herself only Corky/Ez have long range chasing abilites (Valkyrie for Corki and the blink from Ez).Ashe,aside from arrow,if u manage to get a little range from her and your not slowed,your pretty much saved.Same goes for Caith,unless she ulti you).
This is not the case with Vayne.She is a assasin/chaser.Even if he tries run a little from range ,activating your ulti (and assuming he hasn't chosen a unpredictable route in the jungle,you can pretty much catch anyone).So you need as much dmg/crit/armour penetration as possible.I don't rely much on atack speed stacking because the basic tumble/basic atack/condemn procs Silver Bolts anyway and Zerkers/Zeal(made into trifoce) gives me sufficient mid-game atack speed.I follow up with Phantom Dancer if the game is absurdly long (but that is very rare,but its good to have a build who takes note of those long long games).
As runes i got Arp reds,magic resist per lvl blues,armor per lvl yellows and health quints.It's my basic AD carry setup ( i don't have a runepage for every hero yet ,so i'm using general based rune builds ).
I only time i had so much fun with a hero,as much as with Vayne,was when i use to play Twitch ,many many nerf patches ago at lvl 15+.
As long as you have at least 2 semi-competent team mates you should win most pubs.By semi-competent i mean basic knowledge of his/her champ and doesn't feed  .If u sometimes a encounter a good 5 man premade with balanced heroes and lots of CC and your team isn't on par, you will die.
Fortunately ,many champs can 1v1 vayne provided they are on par gear and not underlvled and maybe with the help of Exhaust.
From anti-carries like Akali ,with her insane AP burst,to a equally geared Gankplank who exhaust you,to team with lots of CC,Vayne is not invincible,especially with this build :D.
But with this build,she is the champion which will make you regret you left her run away with 30 hp.Not because missed the gold,but that you let her live a little longer.So everything relies on your team keeping you alive as possible.
As laning partners,anything works for her,provided that the lane partner has a CC ability.From Ali to Nasus/Taric or any other tank.I don't like having a support on my lane.The only advatange of having a support is that you get all the gold usually.But the problem is that you're both squishy .Yes,Sona can heal you and Janna can shield you and slow.But i prefer a beefy tank or Taric who can take the brunt of the dmg while i focus one of them.
Hopefully i covered most of the aspects and that my mini-guide didn't bored you.It's my first guide attempt .
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i'm 100% positive that attack speed is the way to go
the only thing i'd change now is phantom dancer before wit's end, or at least zeal first
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8748 Posts
On September 03 2011 13:26 alexlw92 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 10:36 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
First BF Sword item is really between BT and BC, never IE. why not IE? i never get BC, for armor pen i always go LW
Attack speed helps get W procs, so once you have BC + Boots, your AS is good enough to pop those W's out easily. Also BC is such an insane mid-game item in general because carries melt under the armor shred and even tanks often haven't built much armor yet.
In general, AD synergizes with AS and vice versa. Vayne gets an AD boost from her ult, and she gets no natural AS boosts, so it's natural for her to build some AS. And of course her W benefits from AS.
IE is better for champs that are going for crit or have natural crit steroid or champs that have attack speed steroids.
You have to try BC to really feel it. I think 2 dorans, zerker greaves and BC and maxing W gives an insanely strong mid game. IE takes longer to get and isn't as strong until you can get some more +crit chance. Pick up red buff and call for a team fight at dragon or baron or something and then just attack whoever is closest to you. Even if it's a tank, you kite and kill so fast and then clean up everyone.
Also I find that grabbing dagger for an extra 15% AS, until you can afford the full BC, is really nice. It can really make the difference between getting a W off in lane and not getting it off. If you have boots and dorans blade, and you buy boots 2 and 2nd dorans blade and a dagger, you just got a huge boost in power, while the other guy probably just went triple dorans blade and didn't change much.
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If BC is good on anyone its better on vayne. Corki doesn't use the attack speed that much. MF has some magic damage. Vayne scales really really well with BC I don't see why people don't get it more often.
IE scales better in general though for lategame, because once you get PD as well the crits get insane.
But for midgame dominating BC is #1.
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How much attack speed do you guys think is good enough for Vayne?
In my build, I almost always build BC and Phantom Dancers. That's 55+40 = 95 attack speed.
And then I focus on AD and get IE and Bloodthirster. Should I go for more than 95?
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On September 05 2011 16:37 GhostOwl wrote:
How much attack speed do you guys think is good enough for Vayne?
In my build, I almost always build BC and Phantom Dancers. That's 55+40 = 95 attack speed.
And then I focus on AD and get IE and Bloodthirster. Should I go for more than 95?
Attackspeed is for crit and stacking BC + W.
I don't really feel that there is one answer for every situation.
If you are not being focused: IE
If you are being focused: Banshees
If you are just eating some of the AOE: BT
I don't know this is probably wrong, but IE gives the most damage and synergizes well with the items you are currently building.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
really need a new OP for vayne, current one is so bad.
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On September 07 2011 00:53 Brees wrote:
really need a new OP for vayne, current one is so bad.
lol i hope no one is following that item build
it still says double philo
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Pretty sure only guitar was the one who followed that build. Most normal people did Q>E>W and went dblades, bt, zeal, pd, defense.
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I always have built W>E>Q and gone pure attack speed. W proc is just too good.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On September 07 2011 02:29 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
I always have built W>E>Q and gone pure attack speed. W proc is just too good.
your signature here is very fitting :3 all kidding aside though, W is a one point wonder.
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i go e w q because dsc told me to and if i don't do what he says he beats me and makes me cry
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I like Cleaver + Phantom Dancer builds on Vayne. That shit tears people up.
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Erhm. Why do people still max E? Everytime I go Q > W > E (e at level 1) I feel so much better.
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On September 07 2011 03:57 r.Evo wrote:
Erhm. Why do people still max E? Everytime I go Q > W > E (e at level 1) I feel so much better.
Yeah I have to concur with this one. I don't necessary find myself using E all that much considering it knocks back and most game situations the opposing champ isn't near a wall. Once your core items are complete, W is just way too powerful.
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England2662 Posts
On September 07 2011 04:03 broz0rs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 03:57 r.Evo wrote:
Erhm. Why do people still max E? Everytime I go Q > W > E (e at level 1) I feel so much better. Yeah I have to concur with this one. I don't necessary find myself using E all that much considering it knocks back and most game situations the opposing champ isn't near a wall. Once your core items are complete, W is just way too powerful.
Well, if you're maxing E and you hit someone into a wall they lose loads of health and it's almost a guaranteed kill. I prefer it heavily, especially if I put a ward in my brush.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
So, ever since the Monster Hunter Skin came out I've been wanting to learn Vayne since I should learn another AD Carry. (Monster Hunter is good btw) My main go-to AD is Ashe who is a pretty passive laner and not in-your-face aggressive like other AD Champs. I also never got a chance to play Vayne in her freeweek. So I have some questions before I drop a whole load of IP on her+any runes I might need.
1) What is the Vayne playstyle like? I'm aware you want to be in their face and procc-ing those Silver Bolts. But do you like try to duel the other AD Carry, go after tanky dps, or just shoot anyone you can safely see? I'm assuming Ult+2sec restealth thanks to Q changes her positioning and target priority a lot.
2) I know 21/0/9 is standard for ADs, but I've also heard of 21/9/0. Is the 9 in Def Tree SoS or Nimbleness? SoS sounds right, but her mana pool doesn't seem large enough to support it. Nimbleness+Passive sounds like a lot of MS as well.
3) Skill Order: Ever since the E nerf, do you still max it first? I saw Westrice leaving it to pretty late on stream once. But didn't see exact skill order. Q I assume you want to max first/second since 2 sec Tumble is good. So it's a matter of W or E and if you want to do W>E, E>W or W=E.
4) Runes. Are AS Yellows and Blues worth it? Currently I just run armour+mres. I assume Red+Quints follow APen+AD respectively.
5) Item Build. When do you got FOTM Wriggles early, and when do you stack Dorans? I feel like Wriggles is so good since it's massive cost effective and free wards are great but stacking Dorans is also really good. And if you do both you delay the first BF Sword item so much. Additionally, what BFSword Item should I go? BT sounds about right since it gives so much raw AD for Q+E and lifesteal is important. But I might be wrong. Also, is PD worth it, or is double Zeal better?
Okay, that's quite a lot to ask, but I'd appreciate a better insight into Vayne before I drop a mass of IP on her. Thanks in advance!
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On September 07 2011 07:15 MoonBear wrote:So, ever since the Monster Hunter Skin came out I've been wanting to learn Vayne since I should learn another AD Carry. (Monster Hunter is good btw) My main go-to AD is Ashe who is a pretty passive laner and not in-your-face aggressive like other AD Champs. I also never got a chance to play Vayne in her freeweek. So I have some questions before I drop a whole load of IP on her+any runes I might need. 1) What is the Vayne playstyle like? I'm aware you want to be in their face and procc-ing those Silver Bolts. But do you like try to duel the other AD Carry, go after tanky dps, or just shoot anyone you can safely see? I'm assuming Ult+2sec restealth thanks to Q changes her positioning and target priority a lot. 2) I know 21/0/9 is standard for ADs, but I've also heard of 21/9/0. Is the 9 in Def Tree SoS or Nimbleness? SoS sounds right, but her mana pool doesn't seem large enough to support it. Nimbleness+Passive sounds like a lot of MS as well. 3) Skill Order: Ever since the E nerf, do you still max it first? I saw Westrice leaving it to pretty late on stream once. But didn't see exact skill order. Q I assume you want to max first/second since 2 sec Tumble is good. So it's a matter of W or E and if you want to do W>E, E>W or W=E. 4) Runes. Are AS Yellows and Blues worth it? Currently I just run armour+mres. I assume Red+Quints follow APen+AD respectively. 5) Item Build. When do you got FOTM Wriggles early, and when do you stack Dorans? I feel like Wriggles is so good since it's massive cost effective and free wards are great but stacking Dorans is also really good. And if you do both you delay the first BF Sword item so much. Additionally, what BFSword Item should I go? BT sounds about right since it gives so much raw AD for Q+E and lifesteal is important. But I might be wrong. Also, is PD worth it, or is double Zeal better? Okay, that's quite a lot to ask, but I'd appreciate a better insight into Vayne before I drop a mass of IP on her. Thanks in advance!
1) Vayne is somewhat similar to.. hmmmm... some mix between MF and ezreal would be the only close thing. I feel her kit is very balanced overall and a load of fun to play. Target priority is the same as for any AD carry aka "Shoot the highest priority target without getting yourself into danger". - However, you're fucking strong once the fight dies down. Basicly Vayne is unstoppable when her team is ahead in fights and slight worse than most other ADs if the team is behind imo.
2) Personally I run 21 0 9 on most of my AD carries. Find out what works for you. I'm going to play around with nimbleness and see how it goes.
3) As I just said, I feel Q > W > E, E at lvl 4 much more reliable than E max. Maxing Q gives you consistent, strong harass while maxing E gives you insane burst IF you hit them into a wall. Prolly both are viable. Someone should find out what Chaox does.
4) Personally I run my runes depending on how I expect the lane to turn out. If I expect to bully them (e.g. Vayne+Janna/Taric/Alistar) I like AD yellows (moar burst than AS). I stopped using AS blues cuz I feel like mres/level just too good. Sidenote: I think Janna > Taric > Alistar for preferred people to lane with. Janna/Vayne is incredibly strong because Vaynes harass is the most predictable of any AD carry out there (Q = instashield = it hurtz, never waste shield, always hurt, huehuehue.)
5) Never get both Wriggles and DBlade stack. Personally I run the DBlade stacks to dominate my lane and Wriggles if I feel behind/need to catch up. Wriggles offers more sustain and some defense, DBlade more bang for the buck.
Vayne = high AD ratios = BT.
IE works fine, too but I feel it delays AS items for too long and that's why I dislike it.
zeal BT zeal works.
BT -> PD works.
BT -> Wits End Works (if you ran 15% Mpen in offense for some reason (hint: being able to rush BR if needed)
You can usually delay LW for pretty long cause of your W, sometimes even a 2nd BT or PD makes more sense than LW.
Random sidenote:
Basic Vayne harass combo is auto, q closer, finish w stack with e, run back
Basic combo at 6 is ult in brush, tumble out, E into wall, auto, Q, auto, rape.
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1)In my experience, it depends on which build you go. If you max W first (what I for myself rarely do), you probably want to stick to the same target for at least 3 hits as soon as some team initiated. Of course you still want to focus down one target without maxing W, but your not relying on W to deal the damge since you got to build different when not maxing W.
Before the fight starts and pokes are traded, you wanna hit targets available just like with any other ranged AD.
2) In duo lane (where you usually are with a healer) I personally go 21/0/9 especially if I am on blue team where you can quickly leave the lane to get red buff from your jungler (1 point utility mastery is just too good) and the +EXP mastery fits Vayne's aggressive play:
kill enemy creeps a little faster, get lvl 2 earlier and then harass the enemy ranged AD with AA -> Tumble -> AA combo for surprising extra damage with W proc or - if they stand close to the wall and CV is ready (works best if you communicate via Skype / TS3 / Vent with your support) take E over W at lvl 2 and pin them for heavy burst damage.
Either way forces them to play passive the next minutes.
In solo lane (as Westrice did and played top) 21/9/0 is the common choice since every little bit lane sustain helps and the extra armor / mr helps, too. +EXP mastery and utility mastery can not be used to their full potential at top if you ask me.
3)I've tried both and must say that I still like E more for the early burst damage where it almost always leads to a kill if you can pin them to a wall after earlier harass.
But I can see the point in W and max it first, too, if you are vs. a melee (just as Westrice did in his game solo top; he uploaded that btw): it is too easy to harass whenever they come for a last hit since you passive and tumble will always let you proc W once they are in AA range.
However, with a strong duo laner bot (Taric for stun or Janna for slow/knockup) that allows you to position correctly, maxing E for the heavy damage vs squishy chars (that your ranged AD opponent probably is) is my preference.
Maybe one can say E vs. ranged and W vs. melee? I dunno yet.
4) In bot lane I use AS blues. Combined with offensive tier 2 AS mastery you get a nice +10% AS boost which is noticeable. This is an even stronger choice if you plan to max W.
Armor yellows are perfectly fine bot, and if you go solo top and you know you go vs any AD bruiser they are probably the best choice, too.
For MR blues I prefer flat ones in solo lanes against magic damage dealing opponents but didn't find scaling ones to be that useful: sooner or later magic burst champs are going to nuke you either way even with Banshee's Veil so 11 more MR at lvl 18 won't save you from dying.
Reds and quints are pretty much set: ArPen and flat AD.
5) This, again, depends on what you plan to max. Boots should be Zerk Greaves as often as possible since you rely on Ult + Q for superior positioning and avoiding CC (tbh: if the enemy gets to CC you, you will mostly get blown up even with -33% CC duration from merc treads anyways).
If you go E > W (maxing Q second) you wanna go for more raw damage: naturally, the first BF sword item will then be a Bloodthirster. It sclaes really nice with E and Q and the life steal is important on Vayne (I always miss it when I take another BF item frist [see below] for a good reason ).
But sometimes, even without maxing W, Black Cleaver can be a stronger choice if the game goes really well for you: -45 Armor reduction is boss in an favourable midgame and tightens your advantage, your opponents melt at that time maxing W or not. Builds that max W go for BC anyways.
However, both follow up with Phantom Dancer into one Defensive item (my choices are BV / GA depending on enemy main damage).
Using the E-build, I will finish with IE / LW (selling BC for LW if I did build BC insteat of BT first [see above]).
Going the W-build, I use a second Zeal completing to Phantom Dancer after I put a Bloodthirster in between (as I mentioned earlier life steal is important for Vayne and you need some damage besides your W proc) but don't nail me on that one since I'm rarely maxing W first (what might have to do with the fact that I just don't play solo top Vayne very often; my premades stick to the meta and just won't let me try it out lol).
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Chaox does R > E > Q > W.
The thing about maxing Q is that maxing it early doesn't actually do a whole lot in lane, the reduced CD isn't really necessary for a harassment skill, you don't have much AD so the extra 10-20% doesn't mean nearly as much as E doing more damage.
As for W I think it's an obvious one point wonder. People say %true damage imba but if you're going a typical AD build rather than gtrsrs attack speed build there's no reason to put more than one point in it early. Even with an attack speed BR build a lot of your damage is still physical rather than magical or true.
I think people's main problem with Vayne is that they don't know how to land E correctly. E max into wall just leads into so much damage it's ridiculous, not maxing E because you're not good with the champ really isn't an excuse in this situation. From what I've seen pro vaynes smash people into walls at the time so when I fail at it I'm pretty sure it's just because I'm a baddie.
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I assumed people knew to go Q W E W before going pure W E Q. My bad. I like the E buff because you pair her with Taric bot lane and you get a good bush stun on their support, you blast them back into the wall for another stun and you just auto the shit out of them. I like going Dblae, Zeal, Boots, Wits End, PD. I may finish boots 2 in there depending. C&D is a good item to get too. Cleaver is awesome.
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As for W I think it's an obvious one point wonder. People say %true damage imba but if you're going a typical AD build rather than gtrsrs attack speed build there's no reason to put more than one point in it early. Even with an attack speed BR build a lot of your damage is still physical rather than magical or true.
I played vayne for a couple of weeks while she was free and I always prioritized W. Most AD carry builds go for BF into boots, but I found vayne's power lay in her agility and ability to really confuse enemy players by constantly moving around quickly and altering positioning with level 1 Q and E. She's not the sort who kind of paces on the spot like ashe to get CS, she can run all over the lane and be aggressive and maxing W maximizes that potential. drop an auto+condemn on someone and they are going to back the F up, or if you wallshot them they're gonna lose a lot of health.
I found building dorans-boots-dorans-zeal-greaves-cleaver-dancer-edge more successful than the plain old edge-dancer-whisper cookie cutter AD carry build on her and it let me destroy opposing carries and bruisers in the laning phase because of how powerful W is for damage output.
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On September 07 2011 12:55 Thereisnosaurus wrote:Show nested quote +As for W I think it's an obvious one point wonder. People say %true damage imba but if you're going a typical AD build rather than gtrsrs attack speed build there's no reason to put more than one point in it early. Even with an attack speed BR build a lot of your damage is still physical rather than magical or true. I played vayne for a couple of weeks while she was free and I always prioritized W. Most AD carry builds go for BF into boots, but I found vayne's power lay in her agility and ability to really confuse enemy players by constantly moving around quickly and altering positioning with level 1 Q and E. She's not the sort who kind of paces on the spot like ashe to get CS, she can run all over the lane and be aggressive and maxing W maximizes that potential. drop an auto+condemn on someone and they are going to back the F up, or if you wallshot them they're gonna lose a lot of health. I found building dorans-boots-dorans-zeal-greaves-cleaver-dancer-edge more successful than the plain old edge-dancer-whisper cookie cutter AD carry build on her and it let me destroy opposing carries and bruisers in the laning phase because of how powerful W is for damage output.
How on earth can you claim that a skill based on the percentage of their total health (hint: not a lot early) and therefore scales as the game progresses is stronger than skills which linearly give more base damage. o.O
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I like q simply because a q-auto against an enemy hurts quite a bit, and I find that to be more useful than e simply because the range is better. W is a 1 point wonder because, in laning, your opponent has to be TERRIBLE to let you proc the passive without a stun, so it becomes a fairly useless harassing tool.
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How on earth can you claim that a skill based on the percentage of their total health (hint: not a lot early) and therefore scales as the game progresses is stronger than skills which linearly give more base damage. o.O
well, to start with it doesn't. It does a base amount of true damage PLUS an amount equal to a percentage of total health. level 1 is 20+4%(generally around 40 total, the equivalent of maybe 55 PD), level 4 which you can get pretty early does 50+7%. Given most champs around level 7 have 1000ish health without items, that's 120 bonus damage about the time you'd get your BF sword on a good day, and be doing something around 125 damage. A level 4 tumble will add 60 ish damage, that will then be reduced to something like 40 by champ armor, less if they actually bought or runed for it.
Now, it's fair to say that since even level 1 bolts is still pretty good, and if you were working Q you'd still get that, when you factor in everything at the point you get a BF sword they're probably around equal, and leveling Q wins out because it gives you more mobility, ofc at the cost of mana.
But if you go for a greaves-zeal opening, the attack speed scales infinitely better with a leveled W, plus this means you will have level 2 boots and zeal speed passive significantly earlier than the BF sword equivalent. Landing W combos with level 1 boots only is tricky but dooable. With an extra 57 movement on your opponent it is trivial.
@two_down:
This is true, but it is such a powerful threat you can zone incredibly well, particularly if you go with the speed build above. If an enemy gets within AA range of you while your tumble is up that's a guaranteed combo. If you get your greaves-zeal before they get boots 2, which happened a few times to me, you don't even really need the tumble. stutter step 1-2-condemn. With a leveled up W that combo does ridiculous damage.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
lol zoning with vayne
she is probably the weakest of all ad carries in terms of laning, not sure who you'd be able to zone...Ashe if she's bad maybe? thats about it
part of the reason Q and E are leveled before W if not most of it is because vayne is a piss poor laner....I would love to be able to max W 2nd after E or Q depending on the lane but reality is you rarely get the chance unless they play super passive or have a shitty laning support like janna that makes them unable to trade blows.
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ya. Given I'm still in normals it's very possible the guys I'm playing against aren't serious or are just bad. Still, I loved making those three shot combos work. perhaps against a boss I'd have trouble, but it worked pretty well for me.
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On September 07 2011 14:29 Brees wrote:
lol zoning with vayne
she is probably the weakest of all ad carries in terms of laning, not sure who you'd be able to zone...Ashe if she's bad maybe? thats about it
part of the reason Q and E are leveled before W if not most of it is because vayne is a piss poor laner....I would love to be able to max W 2nd after E or Q depending on the lane but reality is you rarely get the chance unless they play super passive or have a shitty laning support like janna that makes them unable to trade blows.
Are you stuck 5 weeks in the past? Janna is a top notch bot lane support right now.
Good lanes are Vayne + Taric, Janna, Sona for example. With Taric you go for stun > burst > retreat > stun > kill. With Janna and Sona you let the support harrass and if the enemy makes the slightest mistake you hunt them down and kill them.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On September 07 2011 17:29 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 14:29 Brees wrote:
lol zoning with vayne
she is probably the weakest of all ad carries in terms of laning, not sure who you'd be able to zone...Ashe if she's bad maybe? thats about it
part of the reason Q and E are leveled before W if not most of it is because vayne is a piss poor laner....I would love to be able to max W 2nd after E or Q depending on the lane but reality is you rarely get the chance unless they play super passive or have a shitty laning support like janna that makes them unable to trade blows. Are you stuck 5 weeks in the past? Janna is a top notch bot lane support right now. Good lanes are Vayne + Taric, Janna, Sona for example. With Taric you go for stun > burst > retreat > stun > kill. With Janna and Sona you let the support harrass and if the enemy makes the slightest mistake you hunt them down and kill them.
janna developed a heal in the last 5 weeks sans ultimate? Don't condescend without reading.
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Janna has as much of a heal as any other support these days.
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VsCait, seems impossible?
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I recommend Wriggle's Lantern. It delays your really heavy damage items (stacking D-Blades, does, too, tho) but helps you not autolosing the lane by 10 minutes after a bad start or stronger enemy composition (start with the cloth armor).
Play passive, keep up in lvls and call for a jungler gank.
Vayne at lvl 6 wit the cc help of your support / jungler can pretty much kill any squishy AD like Caitlynn. Use flash + Tumble for a surprising Condemn into the wall (make sure you have vision if you pin them into the wall next to the sidelane brushes) and see your enemy melt.
After you scored the kill you should be back into the game
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enemy steps it the bush, support uses cv on the bush and vayne lands an auto attack tumble stun combo. When the enemy is about out of the cc they get stunned/ knocked up again and are dead, then you go back to farming passively.
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I was trying to test some as buids but i always stay with standard ad build doran blade boots then 3 more dorans then bloodthirster then phantom dancer then if after you get thirster and styrg your ult you just burst everything in your way its just 4 attacks and everyone dies except maxbe for tanks + nobody runs away from you
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4 blades real excessive, especially with bt first item
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I start by taking Q first then W as second and at lvl 3 I start to max E and then continue to max Q and by last max W.
Starting with Dorians, Berk boots, bloodthirster, zeal, black cleaver and phantom dancers.
That is the route I usually go.
ill throw in a banshee if they have mainly AP dmg.
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Have had a lot of fun with Vayne as of late. Started off with an attack speed oriented build (focus on silver bullets) but have since moved on to a triforce build (focusing on Q/E). Both seem to work about the same, it really just comes down to playing her properly.
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This guide is heavily outdated so I want to throw in some of the thoughts I have about her:
I had the courage to play vayne again a little bit (my worst role is ad carry for some reason). I dont completely understand why you would get a major AD item on her early on. I think wriggles is the n1 farming item on her since its super cheap, helps her laneing in all ways, helps with dragons/neutrals and gives her enough sustain to be able to push lanes.
then for the boots choice I think its situational. the first major Item vayne should get is either phantom dancer or trinity. I see no great profit in maxing E on vayne at all. You only get the full damage situationally. I get 1 level of it ofc but then simultaneosly level Q and W. Vayne doesnt seem to need alot of AD early on at all. Even if you would max E then its still on a fairly high cooldown to make use of AD. Her ult+ wriggles make her on par with a BF sword item AD wise and alot of the damage comes from W. either PD/Trinity seem to give her so much more of the stuff she needs. I even make both of them and then decide if I need survivability or if I can get away with an IE.
This all doesnt allow for LW which is a staple item on AD carries. The thing with vayne is: she isnt a typical AD carry anyways. Her short range doesn't allow her to safely siege turrets, so a good part of the reasoning behind LW is denied on her. The second reason to buy it would be for killing tanks which is another core purpose of the AD carry role, but she does that with her W +attackspeed allready.
so in short my core looks something like this: wriggles, mercs/zerkers/tabi, trintiy, pd.
then luxuries in preferably this order: IE, defense (QSS/Banshee/GA), change wriggles to BT.
I also think the +MS you get from this core is huge on vayne. The sheen procc from Trinity might be the n1 reason to argue against it so think about this: you get it on every ranged ad that is able to spam shit all the time such as corki, ez, urgot. So I dont see a reason why the procc wouldnt be good on her at all.
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On October 13 2011 02:37 clickrush wrote:
This guide is heavily outdated so I want to throw in some of the thoughts I have about her:
I had the courage to play vayne again a little bit (my worst role is ad carry for some reason). I dont completely understand why you would get a major AD item on her early on. I think wriggles is the n1 farming item on her since its super cheap, helps her laneing in all ways, helps with dragons/neutrals and gives her enough sustain to be able to push lanes.
then for the boots choice I think its situational. the first major Item vayne should get is either phantom dancer or trinity. I see no great profit in maxing E on vayne at all. You only get the full damage situationally. I get 1 level of it ofc but then simultaneosly level Q and W. Vayne doesnt seem to need alot of AD early on at all. Even if you would max E then its still on a fairly high cooldown to make use of AD. Her ult+ wriggles make her on par with a BF sword item AD wise and alot of the damage comes from W. either PD/Trinity seem to give her so much more of the stuff she needs. I even make both of them and then decide if I need survivability or if I can get away with an IE.
This all doesnt allow for LW which is a staple item on AD carries. The thing with vayne is: she isnt a typical AD carry anyways. Her short range doesn't allow her to safely siege turrets, so a good part of the reasoning behind LW is denied on her. The second reason to buy it would be for killing tanks which is another core purpose of the AD carry role, but she does that with her W +attackspeed allready.
so in short my core looks something like this: wriggles, mercs/zerkers/tabi, trintiy, pd.
then luxuries in preferably this order: IE, defense (QSS/Banshee/GA), change wriggles to BT.
I also think the +MS you get from this core is huge on vayne. The sheen procc from Trinity might be the n1 reason to argue against it so think about this: you get it on every ranged ad that is able to spam shit all the time such as corki, ez, urgot. So I dont see a reason why the procc wouldnt be good on her at all.
LW's armor pen doesn't apply to turrets.
By itself, every third shot doing decent damage to a tank (If they're scared of you, they're probably more resist oriented, with frozen heart or randuin to shut down your AS) isn't really enough to kill tanks in a reasonable amount of time. LW is still important on her for killing tanks and bruisers and casters that have good armor because they bought an hourglass etc. Obviously there are games that you don't need the LW, but you can't just leave it out of your possible builds because you have vayne's W.
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I have trouble playing her well because of the range. Nearly any other AD carry can just deny her all day and escape before she can get in range for a W proc. The times I have had success I don't play her like an AD champ, I play her like an assassin, jumping out of the brush and blitzing someone to death after a stun.
She really suffers in that early laning phase that ranged ADs are supposed to dominate during, which made me try her top lane a couple times. It went really well (depending on the opponent), and we sent our AP bot with support. Changing it up really messed with our opponents.
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Vayne`s laning vs other ranged AD is pretty strong o.o. If you see or expect AD carries come to poke you with autoattack, you meet them halfway and close the difference in autoattack range during their windup, then you follow it up with a tumble and another autoattack, then you can hit them a third time for silver bolt proc etc.
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holy shit not knowing that LW doesnt work on turrets is actually huge.
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Vayne blows in the beggining , has the lowest hp per ratio as well , but scaling ridiculus well , she actually has the best ad ratio in game with 1.88
Start boots + 3 pots , then buy couple of dorans blade then build ur major item - preferably bloodthirst or infinity edge ( sometimes a zeal b4 those)
shes also ridiculusly hard to play perfectly compare to other ads ( apart ezreal)
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back when i was playing a bit of LoL, i went warmogs (first item) boots, atmas, every game, every character. i do not see how that wouldn't work on vayne : )
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On October 13 2011 03:24 clickrush wrote:
holy shit not knowing that LW doesnt work on turrets is actually huge.
No armor penetration affects turrets at all.
I believe it's the same for mpen on the few things that deal magic damage to turrets also.
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On October 13 2011 03:24 clickrush wrote:
holy shit not knowing that LW doesnt work on turrets is actually huge.
They changed that several months back I think.
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8748 Posts
I think Wriggle's -> BC is the new cool build for Vayne. And if not Wriggle's, then just pick up vamp scepter + BC. Attack speed synergizes with her W and R well. And BC is such a super strong mid game item. If you are super cool, you go QEWEER and get a kill at level 6, then W>Q>E and pick up BC and you kill tanks in mid game fights like they are nothing. But if it's not gonna be easy kiting, then Q>W>E for lower cooldown and you do somersaults all around the battlefield. Low CD on Q makes you many invisible when you R, so do good juking.
I think she should almost always pop ult as soon as she gets 6 unless she's losing the lane really bad. If there's no juicy opportunity to get a kill pre-6, then be sure to have near full mana when you hit 6, because at full mana you can E, R, and Q like 3 times. You don't want to be choosing between an E or Q's. You need em both. Anyway, you don't need to be super aggressive. Don't do anything risky. If you land a stun with E while your ult is up, you probably just won the lane. Using ult to take over the lane, even when a kill isn't guaranteed, is usually much better than saving it for a gank.
And I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but I'm pretty sure it's correct: leveling Q and keeping W at level one makes for a faster early dragon kill than leveling W (assuming you're gonna be using Q's on the dragon). But of course, you should be a boss and level E and kill someone.
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thats all I needed to know.
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Let's say the game goes to super super late game. You have almost an infinite amount of gold.
How does double triforce sound?
60% Attack Speed, 60 Damage, 28% Critical Strike, Double the MS, +500 Health, and so on.
Of course, you would have to choose to get rid of Black Clever + Phantom Dancer...
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8748 Posts
On October 13 2011 21:41 GhostOwl wrote:
Let's say the game goes to super super late game. You have almost an infinite amount of gold.
How does double triforce sound?
60% Attack Speed, 60 Damage, 28% Critical Strike, Double the MS, +500 Health, and so on.
Of course, you would have to choose to get rid of Black Clever + Phantom Dancer...
The slow and extra on-hit damage are what make Triforce awesome. All the stats being useful is what makes Triforce not bad. So by doubling it, you're not getting more awesome, you're just getting more stuff that's not bad.
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I like getting GA as a last item so I can come back to life for a round two. Combine with Yorik and Zilean so you can come back for rounds 3 and 4 as well.
Does anybody know how Vayne's E works with Anivia's wall and Trundle's Pillar?
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I have ben building vayne either Doran's to start if I have a support or 3 pots and boots, then I get a total of 2 Doran's blades and lvl 1 boots I then start building my bloodthirster after that I get Zerker Greaves and after that get a Black Cleaver, then PD then IE and last situational Item.
Thoughts?
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On October 13 2011 22:58 Sabin010 wrote:
Does anybody know how Vayne's E works with Anivia's wall and Trundle's Pillar?
It should push through (can't stun on them) just like Poppy's E does.
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On October 14 2011 23:59 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 22:58 Sabin010 wrote:
Does anybody know how Vayne's E works with Anivia's wall and Trundle's Pillar? It should push through (can't stun on them) just like Poppy's E does.
I agreee. Afaik, you can't even pin your opponent's on Dominion using the nodes itself =(.
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On October 13 2011 11:09 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I think Wriggle's -> BC is the new cool build for Vayne. And if not Wriggle's, then just pick up vamp scepter + BC. Attack speed synergizes with her W and R well. And BC is such a super strong mid game item. If you are super cool, you go QEWEER and get a kill at level 6, then W>Q>E and pick up BC and you kill tanks in mid game fights like they are nothing. But if it's not gonna be easy kiting, then Q>W>E for lower cooldown and you do somersaults all around the battlefield. Low CD on Q makes you many invisible when you R, so do good juking.
I think she should almost always pop ult as soon as she gets 6 unless she's losing the lane really bad. If there's no juicy opportunity to get a kill pre-6, then be sure to have near full mana when you hit 6, because at full mana you can E, R, and Q like 3 times. You don't want to be choosing between an E or Q's. You need em both. Anyway, you don't need to be super aggressive. Don't do anything risky. If you land a stun with E while your ult is up, you probably just won the lane. Using ult to take over the lane, even when a kill isn't guaranteed, is usually much better than saving it for a gank.
And I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but I'm pretty sure it's correct: leveling Q and keeping W at level one makes for a faster early dragon kill than leveling W (assuming you're gonna be using Q's on the dragon). But of course, you should be a boss and level E and kill someone.
Just want to say that I use this build and it's sooo gooood. Cloth5 opening is amazing in pretty much every AD lane, and if you know you're going to lane against pure heavy AP, then Boots3. Wriggle's is like the best laning item ever, even after the nerf. Once you get a BC, things melt. Get a PD and then a BT after that, and snowball doesn't actually come close to how hard you demolish people.
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Somebody else noticed that E doesn't add a silver bullet proc anymore? I was told by a jungle Nocturne today and I had an eye on this: he was right.
Bug or ninja nerf?
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It's been buggy as hell since last patch, so might be a bug. Also, if a proc kills a Kog or Karthus, they don't get a passive, so lol.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
could be either but vayne could use all the bugs/secrets nerfs she could get, because she's crazy in this new super damage metagame.
There's a lot of ways to build her since she's so strong, but the tried and true build that works even better on her due to ignoring armor is IE/PD.
cant decide if i like tristana or vayne better now
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On November 17 2011 05:54 little fancy wrote:
Somebody else noticed that E doesn't add a silver bullet proc anymore? I was told by a jungle Nocturne today and I had an eye on this: he was right.
Bug or ninja nerf?
Confirmed this in a custom game. Might be because of the bug when it interacted with Karthus/Koggles. Will check with a Rioter on this.
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On November 17 2011 05:54 little fancy wrote:
Somebody else noticed that E doesn't add a silver bullet proc anymore? I was told by a jungle Nocturne today and I had an eye on this: he was right.
Bug or ninja nerf?
Yeah i noticed this playing her earlier today. If this is the case then its a pretty big nerf to her laning.
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So I finally got around to buying her, my... 5th(?) AD carry because I <3 that style of play. Different from the "standard" ones, for sure. Not poke-y like Cait or Ez, but not tough like Graves. Have to play slippery and take advantage of weaknesses.
I like the build Tyler put, Boots/Cloth first - Wriggle's - BC - PD - etc seems to be what a lot of pros do as well.
I'm a bit tripped up over leveling skills. A lot of Solomid guides say max E first, but they're kind of old and using E a lot doesn't feel right, you rarely get the stun (except on Dominion, so good there). I think (R >) Q > W > E sounds best, Q burst is nice, low CD good for kiting/running/chasing, and W procs hurt so bad.
Or do people still max E first? I mean, the burst damage and knockback/stun is really nice, but I just don't feel it's as good of an option all the time.
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I've always thought bloodrazer was a great item for vayne, good synergy with silver bolt. for the same reason it's good with kog maw.
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Except Vayne has no magic pen whatsoever. W procs are amazing because it's true damage, MBR procs get reduced by any number of MR items in the game.
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I know Chaox goes E first, Westrice likes Q. I guess it all depends on if you think you can land it often enough to make it worth it / how easy it is to line up a shot again the person you're laning against.
Chaox recently remade his Vayne guide close to a week ago:
http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=9735
Has the old masteries but that isn't too hard to figure out.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On November 18 2011 08:43 Gahlo wrote:I know Chaox goes E first, Westrice likes Q. I guess it all depends on if you think you can land it often enough to make it worth it / how easy it is to line up a shot again the person you're laning against. Chaox recently remade his Vayne guide close to a week ago: http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=9735Has the old masteries but that isn't too hard to figure out.
I actually like to max W first, and I think Westrice does that more commonly. Even against squishies, the silver bolts proc does rediculous damage.
I think the main difference in playstyles for Vayne comes in who maxes what second. I know Chaox and Westrice like E, but I like the Chinese playstyle of maxing Q second for lower cooldown during chases and for repositioning in a teamfight.
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As for now I woudn't consider maxing W first since E still doesn't add a silver ring which is kinda essential because you often either start or finish a 3-hit-combo with it.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On November 18 2011 10:00 little fancy wrote:
As for now I woudn't consider maxing W first since E still doesn't add a silver ring which is kinda essential because you often either start or finish a 3-hit-combo with it.
The thing about not maxing E first is that your main source of damage output is from your W and tumbles, your E is merely used when you're in the proper position to stun them.
It's here that I feel maxing tumble second allows you to re-position much better, especially in a 1v1 situation.
edit: obviously if you max W first you have to get black cleaver as your first core item instead of BT
my typical build is BC, PD (or triforce if i'm really fed), some defense, BT, finish off with another PD
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On November 17 2011 06:03 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 05:54 little fancy wrote:
Somebody else noticed that E doesn't add a silver bullet proc anymore? I was told by a jungle Nocturne today and I had an eye on this: he was right.
Bug or ninja nerf? Confirmed this in a custom game. Might be because of the bug when it interacted with Karthus/Koggles. Will check with a Rioter on this.
Just as an update, this bug has been hotfixed.
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So, I haven't been playing vayne a really long time but I usually do at least decent with her. That is, unless I'm laning against a zilean. Is there anything to do other than turn and run? Cause it seems like a hopeless lane.
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On November 18 2011 13:24 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 06:03 MoonBear wrote:On November 17 2011 05:54 little fancy wrote:
Somebody else noticed that E doesn't add a silver bullet proc anymore? I was told by a jungle Nocturne today and I had an eye on this: he was right.
Bug or ninja nerf? Confirmed this in a custom game. Might be because of the bug when it interacted with Karthus/Koggles. Will check with a Rioter on this. Just as an update, this bug has been hotfixed.
Yeah, noticed that last night I suddenly realized that landing an E stun was basically instant death. Good times.
The more I play her, the more I like her. I've been varying what I level first, depending on the situation, which is fun. It makes the gameplay a bit more variable compared to other champs. My thoughts:
Bruiser/tanky heavy team: R > W > Q > E
Easy lane/enemy isn't cautious: R > E > Q > W
Tough lane/enemy has better poke: R > Q > E > W
W feels like the "one point wonder" ability, and I didn't really focus on leveling it except that time I laned against Amumu/Graves.
On November 18 2011 22:10 Gahlo wrote:
So, I haven't been playing vayne a really long time but I usually do at least decent with her. That is, unless I'm laning against a zilean. Is there anything to do other than turn and run? Cause it seems like a hopeless lane.
Well, Zilean is Zilean. Maybe grab a NMM early on, maybe go for Merc's. His bombs are his only damage, so if you can eat the damage, you can generally chase him down and kill him. The damage peters out around ~5-6, so once you get your Ult he's food.
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i picked up vayne over the weekend and have played 15ish games with her so far. i started out following builds like bt or bc first with wriggles or doran but it seems much more effective to go IE to PD, and then go from there. IE + PD i dont think anyone can outdps that. after that i add on a bt or bc or another pd depending on what i need. ive been maxing w first as e seems a bit situational, granted i still kinda suck with vayne but have started carrying pretty hard in my last few games. is there something im missing in regards to bt or bc builds.
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On December 13 2011 14:56 Vaporized wrote:
i picked up vayne over the weekend and have played 15ish games with her so far. i started out following builds like bt or bc first with wriggles or doran but it seems much more effective to go IE to PD, and then go from there. IE + PD i dont think anyone can outdps that. after that i add on a bt or bc or another pd depending on what i need. ive been maxing w first as e seems a bit situational, granted i still kinda suck with vayne but have started carrying pretty hard in my last few games. is there something im missing in regards to bt or bc builds.
BC is great early to mid-game but doesn't scale well, get it when you want to end games quickly. Wriggle's is a terrible item (it is good situationally, but if it's part of your standard AD build...), especially when you're going BT. As an AD carry you want IE if you can get away with it, as it's the highest DPS item. However, Vayne has 550 range and as such BT is standard on her; additionally, Q and E scale very well with the extra AD. Maxing W first is not very good in lane, R>Q>W>E is standard priority order nowadays unless you are confident you can stomp them in lane, in which case maxing E first is good.
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hmm thanks for the reply. i saw some guide that said wriggles to bc so thats where i got that idea from. i tried it a bit, meh for sure.
i guess ill go with what i need more bt or ie when im choosing my first item. ive found myself wishing i had lifesteal for sure a few times, but if im patient in team fights\ganks then i dont really get hit anyway. i can tell they want to kill me, but if we have good cc they die before they can do anything.
ill try maxing q first next game, i like w because i do good damage to any target.
also one more question, what lane does vayne usually take in ranked games?
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On December 13 2011 15:18 Vaporized wrote:
hmm thanks for the reply. i saw some guide that said wriggles to bc so thats where i got that idea from. i tried it a bit, meh for sure.
i guess ill go with what i need more bt or ie when im choosing my first item. ive found myself wishing i had lifesteal for sure a few times, but if im patient in team fights\ganks then i dont really get hit anyway. i can tell they want to kill me, but if we have good cc they die before they can do anything.
ill try maxing q first next game, i like w because i do good damage to any target.
also one more question, what lane does vayne usually take in ranked games?
I like to play Vayne as a counter pick in most cases against a high armor top lanes like Singed/Garen/Voli, otherwise bot, unless kass is in game then just follow him.
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On December 13 2011 15:18 Vaporized wrote:
hmm thanks for the reply. i saw some guide that said wriggles to bc so thats where i got that idea from. i tried it a bit, meh for sure.
i guess ill go with what i need more bt or ie when im choosing my first item. ive found myself wishing i had lifesteal for sure a few times, but if im patient in team fights\ganks then i dont really get hit anyway. i can tell they want to kill me, but if we have good cc they die before they can do anything.
ill try maxing q first next game, i like w because i do good damage to any target.
also one more question, what lane does vayne usually take in ranked games?
Like I said, IE is the highest DPS item if you can get away with it. Obviously if people aren't good enough to hit you, you can get away with it. :p W first is not ideal as people do not have high HP pools early game, nor do they have high resistances. Q is important not just for the bonus damage, but because it resets your auto timer. Also, if you didn't already know, the basic Vayne combo is tumble in, auto, condemn + right click to queue up an auto for the quickest silver bolts proc. Keep in mind also that you can condemn people into turrets even if they have been destroyed. At low levels of play people constantly misposition so it's important to look for and take advantage of stun opportunities.
The standard is AD + support botlane, but if you're a strong laner Vayne can do well in any lane.
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On December 13 2011 15:18 Vaporized wrote:
hmm thanks for the reply. i saw some guide that said wriggles to bc so thats where i got that idea from. i tried it a bit, meh for sure.
i guess ill go with what i need more bt or ie when im choosing my first item. ive found myself wishing i had lifesteal for sure a few times, but if im patient in team fights\ganks then i dont really get hit anyway. i can tell they want to kill me, but if we have good cc they die before they can do anything.
ill try maxing q first next game, i like w because i do good damage to any target.
also one more question, what lane does vayne usually take in ranked games?
The guide for wirggles is all split pushing/1v1. If your going to team fight. Just come in late and clean up the mess. I just play super passive unless they make a mistake farming up for wriggles. My main goal is to have doran/greaves/wriggles first trip back, but greaves are a luxury.
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Regarding skill order, even Chaox moved away from maxing E first.
Doublelift is currently known for his outstanding Vayne.
He uses E just for the CC and maxes R > Q/W > W/Q > E. His reasoning is that Q + W are Vayne's non ultimate steroids which sounds feasible.
That's why he usually goes for BT first then since with 550 range Vayne needs sustain and her Q scales so well with as many AD you can get. PD after this and you're set.
In general, Vayne is the hypercarry that needs a BF Sword item and a PD and from then on is pretty much a problem for every enemy team. Even the worst Vayne player will sooner or later get triple kills and thus carry the game (assuming his team is not 15 kills behind and knows how to make use of a lategame Vayne).
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Here is most of my games the last 2 days with her. I hardly played ad carry before this. It just feels like that if you DON'T die and farm decently up to wriggles and then bf. You just dominate the lane. Well this is at least at my elo which has been 1350-1480. 1480 now was up to 1560 but took a decent break and came back and dropped down to 1300.
![[image loading]](http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5936/vayneco.th.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/6647/vayne2.th.jpg)
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16987 Posts
Instead of triple posting, please simply edit your original post.
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On December 13 2011 20:29 little fancy wrote:
In general, Vayne is the hypercarry that needs a BF Sword item and a PD and from then on is pretty much a problem for every enemy team. Even the worst Vayne player will sooner or later get triple kills and thus carry the game (assuming his team is not 15 kills behind and knows how to make use of a lategame Vayne).
Yuuup. I had a vayne on my team last night that got *wrecked* in lane. I think she was something like 0-6 with 25 cs 10 minutes in, and lost bot tower at 6 minutes or something. Team was raging at her hard. I think she put us all on ignore because she just sat bot FOREVER, just farming and never joining teamfights.
30 minutes later she finally joined a teamfight and had like BT, BC, and 2 PDs, and more or less killed the entire enemy team herself. Fun stuff.
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On December 14 2011 03:12 Empyrean wrote:
Instead of triple posting, please simply edit your original post.
Umm, I did.... That's odd. I just edited the post. I swear I didn't triple lol.
Just wanted to add something else.
A couple friends of mine have been duo Vayne/NuNu bot. It's pretty ridiculous. They went like 20-2 with it to 1700 from 1400. Using the wriggles/bc strat.
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I broke down and bought Vayne a few days ago. My main champion was Caitlyn and I felt like getting a new champ. The problem is I have not been doing good with Vayne at all. Most games start with me getting rolled in early fight, then me barely managing to break even towards the end of the game by basically KSing everything I can find. Can anyone give me some tips on playing her. I am basically following this build exactly http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/vindictive-vayne-90744 (the one at the top of the page) for my items, skill order and my masteries.
For runes I am running
9 Armor Pen Marks
9 Mana Regen Seals
9 Magic Resist P/L Glyphs
3 Health Quints
I am doing descent with my CS - not great but I have to get used to Vaynes animations and the timing.
Should I level my Q or my W first. I have been leveling my Q first and I simply don't feel like i'm doing much damage with it.
Edit: I don't play ranked at all. I am not bad I just don't want to solo que and my friend isn't level 30 yet, so I am playing with him.
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11589 Posts
On December 29 2011 03:00 FoeHamr wrote:I broke down and bought Vayne a few days ago. My main champion was Caitlyn and I felt like getting a new champ. The problem is I have not been doing good with Vayne at all. Most games start with me getting rolled in early fight, then me barely managing to break even towards the end of the game by basically KSing everything I can find. Can anyone give me some tips on playing her. I am basically following this build exactly http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/vindictive-vayne-90744 (the one at the top of the page) for my items, skill order and my masteries. For runes I am running 9 Armor Pen Marks 9 Mana Regen Seals 9 Magic Resist P/L Glyphs 3 Health Quints I am doing descent with my CS - not great but I have to get used to Vaynes animations and the timing. Should I level my Q or my W first. I have been leveling my Q first and I simply don't feel like i'm doing much damage with it. Edit: I don't play ranked at all. I am not bad I just don't want to solo que and my friend isn't level 30 yet, so I am playing with him.
Run AD/ArPen Quints instead of health, run armor seals instead of Mp5, and go one of two builds depending on the type of carry you like to be.
Wriggles -> Beserkers -> BFS -> BC -> PD -> IE/BT -> PD/GA -> Sell wriggles for GA/PD
This build is to wreck people 1v1 all day long, split pushing as fast as you can and generally being a nuisance. Wriggles helps your team secure baron/dragon faster and gives you good sustain in lane and while split pushing. All the rest of the items are as needed, really.
Doran's -> Boots -> Doran's -> Zerkers -> BT -> PD -> IE -> PD -> GA
This is the teamfight build. In the lategame, you will do more overall damage with this build if you have a fully farmed BT, as BT + IE + 2 PD is insane amounts of damage. You can get a GA at any point in which you feel that you do enough damage and want to add survivability.
As for skill order, I would say qeqwqr, r > q > w > e. People seem to like that nowadays. If your opponents are really horrid with positioning, though, I would max e > w > q, seeing as E is a huge nuke if you land it, and it will win you lanes against worse AD carries.
As for actually laning with Vayne, you have to be careful of how you are positioned. She is designed to do a lot of damage, but at a cost of having a really short AA range. In early fights, save your q/e for escapes/securing kills and communicate with your lane partner to target either the opposing carry or the support. Your decision should be relative to positioning and health. If you can land q -> auto -> condemn into wall, auto, w proc safely, then you should obviously do it. At almost any stage of the game, if your support has any CC at all, you will push them out of lane, if not outright kill them with this combo. In teamfights, it is okay to just hit the tank. With enough attack speed, his health will quickly fall to w procs, so you're not wasted by doing so. Just play safely, use your ult-> q -> e combo to pin down their AP/AD Carry when they are out of position, otherwise just save most of it for escapes. If you can draw someone into a 1v1, by all means do it. You will likely win if you have any experience with Vayne.
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On December 29 2011 03:17 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 03:00 FoeHamr wrote:I broke down and bought Vayne a few days ago. My main champion was Caitlyn and I felt like getting a new champ. The problem is I have not been doing good with Vayne at all. Most games start with me getting rolled in early fight, then me barely managing to break even towards the end of the game by basically KSing everything I can find. Can anyone give me some tips on playing her. I am basically following this build exactly http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/vindictive-vayne-90744 (the one at the top of the page) for my items, skill order and my masteries. For runes I am running 9 Armor Pen Marks 9 Mana Regen Seals 9 Magic Resist P/L Glyphs 3 Health Quints I am doing descent with my CS - not great but I have to get used to Vaynes animations and the timing. Should I level my Q or my W first. I have been leveling my Q first and I simply don't feel like i'm doing much damage with it. Edit: I don't play ranked at all. I am not bad I just don't want to solo que and my friend isn't level 30 yet, so I am playing with him. Run AD/ArPen Quints instead of health, run armor seals instead of Mp5, and go one of two builds depending on the type of carry you like to be. Wriggles -> Beserkers -> BFS -> BC -> PD -> IE/BT -> PD/GA -> Sell wriggles for GA/PD This build is to wreck people 1v1 all day long, split pushing as fast as you can and generally being a nuisance. Wriggles helps your team secure baron/dragon faster and gives you good sustain in lane and while split pushing. All the rest of the items are as needed, really. Doran's -> Boots -> Doran's -> Zerkers -> BT -> PD -> IE -> PD -> GA This is the teamfight build. In the lategame, you will do more overall damage with this build if you have a fully farmed BT, as BT + IE + 2 PD is insane amounts of damage. You can get a GA at any point in which you feel that you do enough damage and want to add survivability. As for skill order, I would say qeqwqr, r > q > w > e. People seem to like that nowadays. If your opponents are really horrid with positioning, though, I would max e > w > q, seeing as E is a huge nuke if you land it, and it will win you lanes against worse AD carries. As for actually laning with Vayne, you have to be careful of how you are positioned. She is designed to do a lot of damage, but at a cost of having a really short AA range. In early fights, save your q/e for escapes/securing kills and communicate with your lane partner to target either the opposing carry or the support. Your decision should be relative to positioning and health. If you can land q -> auto -> condemn into wall, auto, w proc safely, then you should obviously do it. At almost any stage of the game, if your support has any CC at all, you will push them out of lane, if not outright kill them with this combo. In teamfights, it is okay to just hit the tank. With enough attack speed, his health will quickly fall to w procs, so you're not wasted by doing so. Just play safely, use your ult-> q -> e combo to pin down their AP/AD Carry when they are out of position, otherwise just save most of it for escapes. If you can draw someone into a 1v1, by all means do it. You will likely win if you have any experience with Vayne.
Ok thanks. I think i'm just gonna have to play her a bit more to get used to it.
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I actually think mp5/lv isn't a bad choice on vayne. You really want to be able to free tumble whenever you want.
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On December 29 2011 03:00 FoeHamr wrote:I broke down and bought Vayne a few days ago. My main champion was Caitlyn and I felt like getting a new champ. The problem is I have not been doing good with Vayne at all. Most games start with me getting rolled in early fight, then me barely managing to break even towards the end of the game by basically KSing everything I can find. Can anyone give me some tips on playing her. I am basically following this build exactly http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/vindictive-vayne-90744 (the one at the top of the page) for my items, skill order and my masteries. For runes I am running 9 Armor Pen Marks 9 Mana Regen Seals 9 Magic Resist P/L Glyphs 3 Health Quints I am doing descent with my CS - not great but I have to get used to Vaynes animations and the timing. Should I level my Q or my W first. I have been leveling my Q first and I simply don't feel like i'm doing much damage with it. Edit: I don't play ranked at all. I am not bad I just don't want to solo que and my friend isn't level 30 yet, so I am playing with him.
looking thru that guide, i'm baffled that there's no last whisper in there. plz, plz, plz dont think that just kus vayne has trololol true dmg that she can just neglect it if ppl are getting high armor, the vast majority of her dmg still comes from physical sources.
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Vayne
Base movement speed reduced to 300 from 305
Night Hunter movement speed reduced to 30 from 40
Tumble bonus damage reduced to 30/35/40/45/50% from 40/45/50/55/60%
Final Hour Tumble stealth duration reduced to 1 second from 1.5
Coming changes.
To be honest, I'm horrified.
I just thought Riot was going to steadily tweak champs step by step (see MF buff for example over the last few patches) and now they return to using the nerf hammer IMO.
Base movement speed reduction is fine.
Passive nerf is significant, especially when taken into account that it's total of -30 movement speed when ultimate is active.
Tumble nerf seems like Riot only wants Vayne players to use it as a repositioning / chasing tool instead of an harassing technique.
Reducing stealth by 33% is one of the most crucial nerfs IMO: having the enemy run half a second longer in the opposite direction of your escape path is the difference between life and death of Vayne.
Am I exaggerating?
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On January 17 2012 11:57 little fancy wrote:Show nested quote +Vayne
Base movement speed reduced to 300 from 305
Night Hunter movement speed reduced to 30 from 40
Tumble bonus damage reduced to 30/35/40/45/50% from 40/45/50/55/60%
Final Hour Tumble stealth duration reduced to 1 second from 1.5
Coming changes. To be honest, I'm horrified. I just thought Riot was going to steadily tweak champs step by step (see MF buff for example over the last few patches) and now they return to using the nerf hammer IMO. Base movement speed reduction is fine. Passive nerf is significant, especially when taken into account that it's total of -30 movement speed when ultimate is active. Tumble nerf seems like Riot only wants Vayne players to use it as a repositioning / chasing tool instead of an harassing technique. Reducing stealth by 33% is one of the most crucial nerfs IMO: having the enemy run half a second longer in the opposite direction of your escape path is the difference between life and death of Vayne. Am I exaggerating?
Nerf looks very harsh to me.
I feel that her numbers were too strong but this nerf goes a little far, Vayne looks pretty crippled now.
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Hey all - fairly new LoL'r here and I play off and on occasionally with some friends who are pretty hardcore. My question is - I'm skilled enough to perform decently in games and Vayne is far and away my favorite character to play but with the sheer number of champions available to play I was wondering that as someone who doesn't have a thorough knowledge of the characters who would you recommend as someone I might like playing that is somewhat similar? I've got a bunch of points saved up so I could probably stand to buy a couple of older characters...
...Ideas?
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Vayne is an AD carry with a special kit not like right-click AD carry like Ashe or Cait. If you like to play AD carry and Vayne, I think you should try Ezereal out.
But just play the game more, if you are not lv 30 yet, just try a bunch of champions when they are free, so you can some more roles when it comes to ranked game.
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If you are planning to play Vayne, then the Mobafire guide is a wonderful tool for starting off. I have been playing Vayne from summoner level 5 to almost 24 now, and I absolutely lagree with this Mobafire guide after trying out several Vayne builds. Using generally the same ideas, I play Vayne around 80% of my games where I either become ridiculously fed, or break above even on K/D.
First off, let's get an idea of her roles in a standard team. Vayne is meant to be played as an assassin in team fights, staying behind friendly champions and waiting until an enemy makes a mistake. As soon as an enemy oversteps their bounds by even a small margin, it's Vayne's job to start chasing them down and kill them quickly. In 1v1 fights, Vayne also has to know exactly when to retreat and when to go for the kill. Both of these roles stem from her squishyness: she's basically already dead if caught off guard and no means of escape.
With that in mind, let's start talking about the strategy behind Vayne. One of the biggest problems people have with her is dieing in the first 10 or 15 minutes, the moments when she's at her most vulnerable. This weakness is due to two important facts.
First, Vayne relies heavily on her spells to either escape or turn a fight into her favor. At the lower levels, she simply doesn't have enough spells leveled to engage anyone in a direct fight. Instead of direct fights, Vayne needs to either harass enough with Tumble and weaken her enemies before commiting to the kill, or simply avoid champions who are much more powerful in the early game. The best way I can explain this early game play style is to treat every Tumble and Silver Ring as a decision where you MUST come out ahead in harass damage. If you can continuously harass them enough that they get behind on health, then you can wait until the enemy blows one of their spell cooldowns on a minion, then use Vayne's ultimate to chase and kill them.
The second fact is that Vayne is HEAVILY reliant on her ability to feed on kills throughout the game. If your K/D ends up 0/5 or worse by the end of the 10 minute mark, you are honestly already screwed for the rest of the game. You might be able to even out your K/D ratio over time, but you still won't be providing your allies with the adequate burst damage they require during team fights. Your deaths, loss of xp, gold, and champion kills have already set you behind in damage output via the items you could have had.
While on the subject of items, let's discuss Vayne's abilities and how they correlate to the items mentioned in the Mobafire guide linked above. The first important thing you should notice is that all of Vayne's recommended items are extremely expensive. These define your capabilities as an assassin champion by a large margin. For example, if you have already bought your level 2 boots and working towards your first BF Sword, you will start noticing a huge loss in damage output compared to your enemies. This is because, most likely, they have already made a cheaper purchase of their own that sways fights into their favor. Try to line up your confidence with harassing and killing with how recent your last major item purchase was. A single BF Sword will make Vayne way more powerful and harder to escape from.
With all of that said, I will leave remaining explanations of Vayne to Mobafire itself. The writer of the guide explains extremely well why Vayne should level up certain spells before others, and how to specifically utilize them.
The only thing left is to quickly mention my opinion of the Mobafire guide. Looking at masteries, I simply don't get why Havoc isn't taken in the Damage tree. 1.5% extra damage is extremely useful in every possible way, more so than the small amounts of magic resist or armor you are getting from the first tier of Defense. In terms of build order, I choose to buy Vampiric Scepter first for two reasons. One is that Doran's Blade doesn't actually contribute towards building any higher quality items. The second and most important is that the Lifesteal becomes extremely helpful over time. Just sit back and auto attack close-by minions to continuously heal yourself. If the enemy champion comes in to scare you away from minions, just Tumble away and get some hits off later on when they decide to back out.
That's all for now! Hope you found my thoughts on Vayne helpful in any possible way.
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the 1.5 % damage can be left out. depends on your masteries. 6 armor pen does more damage increase on most targets than 1.5 %.
I usually put some points on the mana masteries in utility as well. Unless I'm with Soraka of course.
The vamp scepter start is just terrible. If you do that, I simply right click you at level 1 for the kill with MF or any other carry other than twitch. No. He would win too. Any of the kill lanes will get you and additionally you will be the target of all the early ganks if you don't start with boots. Vamp scepter start loses the game instantly.
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As Freelander said, Vamp Scept starts are going to have you pulverised out of lane incredibly fast. The weakness in Vayne's laning in from levels 1-6. Once you hit 6, you have a kill threat, especially with Alistar or the likes. Vamp Scept relies on you autoing the wave to regain health. Any smart AD will just freeze or pull the lane and just zone you and punish you for that terrible starting item. Skimping on the DBlades is going to get you killed. You're the squishiest Range AD in existence.
There's nothing worth replacing 3 points in for the 1.5% extra damage. Maybe Vamparism. But I wouldn't swap anything else for it. You also don't need to feed off kills... If you make it out of laning without any kills that's fine. You're going to pick them up in teamfights anyway. And if you're an assassin because you pick off people at range then Ashe is also an assassin... You're an AD Carry that can also shred tanks. So you play like a regular AD Carry, except you don't care who you right click. Also dying is bad on any AD Carry regardless.
That mobafire build makes me cry so hard. Zeal before completed BF item? Maybe before pre-nerf Vayne but it really doesn't work that way. Delaying the core BF item is too crucial. As DLift put it quite succinctly, your only goal is to get 2xDBlade and a BF as fast as possible. Nothing else. You don't need a lot of AS just to proc your W. Auto+Q+E is already 3 bolts. With someone like Alistar you can get 4-5 sec of permastun if they're out of position in lane so they're going to be dead anyway.
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On April 19 2012 21:53 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
That mobafire build makes me cry so hard. Zeal before completed BF item?
Hu? The main build of this guide suggests completing a black cleaver before the zeal.
Edit: After further looking at the guide, there is indeed a lot of criticism that can be done at the item suggestions.
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I've been playing vayne recently with her minor resurgence and I'm puzzling over two kind of ways of starting her out.
One is maxing R>Q>E ( only to level 2-3) >W, then building heavy AD (dorans, BT rush etc). This maximizes her single auto poke and burst combo, also generally a bit more sustainy. Seems decent against champs you don't want to trade with over a few autos (draven, ez, varus)
the other is R>W>Q>E and building primarily attackspeed items early (typically berserkers and zeal as an early core, with dorans, vamp etc as necessary. I mostly try this against melee supports or if I have a good slowing/disrupting support like janna or nunu
I'm still quite new to vayne, I'd appreciate some advice on whether the above logic is decent. I know attackspeed maxing is generally frowned upon, but vayne seems suited for it (albeit not quite as much as kog who is my ADC main atm)
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QEQW then R>Q>W>E with a Boots+3, Doran's Blade, Vampiric Scepter then Berserker Greaves -> BF Sword -> finish BT -> start Zeal
This is generally the best way to build Vayne when doing a 2v2 lane with a support.
R>W>Q>E + Phantom Dancer first Vayne was popular at Worlds and it spilled over into solo queue. IMO its power comes from doing a 2v1 with a Nunu support. Nunu provdes the Blood Boil attack speed increase and the zoning to allow Vayne freefarm.
I think option #1 is the best way to build Vayne, #2 isn't bad, but its power is more situational. Vayne is one of the best ADCs to duel with when she pops her ultimate, leveling Q lets her get into stealth more often, and the Q bonus percentage damage steroid stacks with the +flat AD she gets when using her ultimate.
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QQ this champion is so hard to play  can't cheat at kiting using move-attackmove.
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On November 07 2012 03:02 Sufficiency wrote:QQ this champion is so hard to play can't cheat at kiting using move-attackmove.
captain jack says its easy
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Why QEQW over QEW? once you have all 3 skills, you can get the proc out of silver bolts if need be.
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On November 07 2012 03:09 sylverfyre wrote:
Why QEQW over QEW? once you have all 3 skills, you can get the proc out of silver bolts if need be.
Seconded. You have very low trading power before you get all 3 skills. You shouldn't be trading for long enough to need the extra Q, and when the non allin way of offensively trading is something like auto tumble condemn+auto -> back off, there's no reason to get a second point in Q at 3.
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On November 07 2012 03:02 Sufficiency wrote:QQ this champion is so hard to play can't cheat at kiting using move-attackmove.
You can, you just won't hit the right targets.
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On November 07 2012 03:52 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 03:02 Sufficiency wrote:QQ this champion is so hard to play can't cheat at kiting using move-attackmove. You can, you just won't hit the right targets.
Sure I can do that... just as I can probably build AP Vayne...
But attack-moving makes me lose a lot of damage when I attack the wrong target.
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Learning how to play vayne from aphro. If you're the focus of anything, whether it be alistar headbutts, darius dunks or whatever, do NOT use your tumble to just abuse the damage. You get plenty of that just from ulti + silver bolts. Use tumble to dodge/negate casts. Use it on cooldown after the CCs/initial wave of burst attacks.
Also, I played one game of vayne yesterday. How the hell do you deal with malphite+darius or any other combo of malphite + diving bruiser if your team has minimal peel (read: Only janna). Randuins + FH on malph, randuins + GA on darius. I have QSS, BT, PD, LW. Do I just die? I won one teamfight where I had cleanse + flash + QSS but next teamfight, even with baron buff, QSS+stealth wasn't enough and I blew up.
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On November 07 2012 04:04 Lmui wrote:
Learning how to play vayne from aphro. If you're the focus of anything, whether it be alistar headbutts, darius dunks or whatever, do NOT use your tumble to just abuse the damage. You get plenty of that just from ulti + silver bolts. Use tumble to dodge/negate casts. Use it on cooldown after the CCs/initial wave of burst attacks.
Also, I played one game of vayne yesterday. How the hell do you deal with malphite+darius or any other combo of malphite + diving bruiser if your team has minimal peel (read: Only janna). Randuins + FH on malph, randuins + GA on darius. I have QSS, BT, PD, LW. Do I just die? I won one teamfight where I had cleanse + flash + QSS but next teamfight, even with baron buff, QSS+stealth wasn't enough and I blew up.
Vayne is basically the only ADC I play, I just don't like the role much outside of that one character.
The thing about Vayne in heavy CC team fights is that you need to be way in the back and engage SUPER late. If you play a lot of ADC, player her like you would Kog'Maw, how you stick way the hell in the back and use his range to mitigate the damage you would otherwise take, only she doesn't have the same range, she has tumble.
When I play Vayne in team fights, I will routinely wait to engage even until we are down a whole person from all the AoE going off, Vayne does enough damage to make up for the lost time, so it's not much of a concern.
Also, the only time I use E past the mid-game is when I need to get divers off me, it's just too costly and not enough damage to use for anything else.
If your team is letting 2 divers get to you without so much as touching them, there is not much you can do about that, but assuming they are less than 100%hp, you should be able to clean them up with tumbles + condemn.
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On November 07 2012 04:04 Lmui wrote:
Learning how to play vayne from aphro. If you're the focus of anything, whether it be alistar headbutts, darius dunks or whatever, do NOT use your tumble to just abuse the damage. You get plenty of that just from ulti + silver bolts. Use tumble to dodge/negate casts. Use it on cooldown after the CCs/initial wave of burst attacks.
Also, I played one game of vayne yesterday. How the hell do you deal with malphite+darius or any other combo of malphite + diving bruiser if your team has minimal peel (read: Only janna). Randuins + FH on malph, randuins + GA on darius. I have QSS, BT, PD, LW. Do I just die? I won one teamfight where I had cleanse + flash + QSS but next teamfight, even with baron buff, QSS+stealth wasn't enough and I blew up.
just need to not get hit by malph ult or darius pull
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If your team is letting 2 divers get to you without so much as touching them, there is not much you can do about that, but assuming they are less than 100%hp, you should be able to clean them up with tumbles + condemn.
Stay back and bait their initiation. None of those super hard initiates is guaranteed other than possibly a jarvan flash cataclysm. For malph you want to stick back till the overall fight initiation happens, watch for him walking up into range to pop you with his ult once the fight starts and flash it. Ideally you want to get him to whiff the ult entirely by trying to be a good boy and hit you with it. Bonus points if you flash so that you line up a condemn on him. Often at the start of fights I kind of just run in circles up the back and watch skillshots fly past like college deadlines as people try to lock me down with ults, grabs and bindings. Wait for the right target- a tanky dropping below half or someone in a bad position you can tumble> condemn- then go, pick them off and juke back. It's all about predicting the opposing team's behaviour a second or two in advance and trolling the hell out of them. Doing it right is one of the most rewarding aspects of playing one of those big-target-strapped-to-your-ass type champions like vayne, kog and kat.
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hi, i'm a fairly new lol player (hiting 30 soon), and i mostly play adc.
i tried a lot, and i'm thinking of maining vayne.
i usualy start of my game with boots, bf sword, vamp scepter, zeal, IE, phantom dancer, last whisper, GA, BT
i know its not the greatest build, but it was working well vs bots and was good for most adc
i've buyed my runes as folow :
mark : 1 crit chance (for better then 0, it still crit sometimes :p), then only armor pene
seal : only armor
glyph : only magic res per level
quint : life steal
i know there is absolutly no guide (none that i've seen) that suggest life steal quint, but i thought they would be cool and bought them.
are those atk dmg very so powerful that every build recomand them ? i thought 6 .75 wouldn't change so much and life steal seemed more attracting.
now, because of this, and because i'm still a noob, i have some problems last hiting.
should i change my mark+quint to atk dmg ? or should i buy a doran blade or two after my boots ? (or should i just get better at last hitting without changing anything :p)
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wtf is up with all the vayne players rushing SOTD? I keep seeing them going for boots then vamp scept, sotd...I mean looking at the price and stat I would rather get a PD then that piece of shit mid game item..
different topic:
to play vayne you literally just sit in the back and wait. This may sound counter productive but she is wayyy too squishy and doesnt have any strong safety nets in comparison to other adcs (kog has his super range for example). Let everyone waste their CCs (especially the apc) then dive in. Her dps is so damn good that losing one team member isnt a big deal (unless someone got caught and no cooldowns were thrown).
zeross:
You should try to finish an item quickly (dont have a bunch of unfinished items) especially the BT just to get the stacks flowing (and i hope the LW isnt on your mandatory list but rather an optional and flexible option).The lifesteal runes dont add up much especialy when you dont have any dps to make up the percentage aspect of them. Also the AD quints help out A LOT with the last hitting which is usually why people put it up (considering there isnt any other strong option other than MS and defensive quints).
For the last hit:
Just get better. Honestly as long as you have one AD then anyone can last hit. What I use to do in the beginning is I would click on an minion that I would try to last hit and pay attention to the rate the hp is lowering. As soon as I see drop within the hp limit, I take a memory photo of what the hp bar looks like and last hit. Keep doing that so that you can easily recognize simply by the visual hp bar to know when to hit (melee minions are a bit tankier then range so keep that in mind). Just play enough and I promise it will come to you either way. It just takes time. Also using tumble to last hit easier isnt a bad idea although you can go oom and be vulnerable if you do it recklessly (they have a cc nearby).
I personally do boots if I see someone I need mobility against (blitz and leona come to mind) and mainly start with it considering vayne has a SHITTY SHITTY early game (pre-6). But going boots, 2 dorans, scept isnt a bad early item setup.
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On December 23 2012 01:39 heroyi wrote:
wtf is up with all the vayne players rushing SOTD? I keep seeing them going for boots then vamp scept, sotd...I mean looking at the price and stat I would rather get a PD then that piece of shit mid game item..
different topic:
to play vayne you literally just sit in the back and wait. This may sound counter productive but she is wayyy too squishy and doesnt have any strong safety nets in comparison to other adcs (kog has his super range for example). Let everyone waste their CCs (especially the apc) then dive in. Her dps is so damn good that losing one team member isnt a big deal (unless someone got caught and no cooldowns were thrown).
zeross:
You should try to finish an item quickly (dont have a bunch of unfinished items) especially the BT just to get the stacks flowing (and i hope the LW isnt on your mandatory list but rather an optional and flexible option).The lifesteal runes dont add up much especialy when you dont have any dps to make up the percentage aspect of them. Also the AD quints help out A LOT with the last hitting which is usually why people put it up (considering there isnt any other strong option other than MS and defensive quints).
For the last hit:
Just get better. Honestly as long as you have one AD then anyone can last hit. What I use to do in the beginning is I would click on an minion that I would try to last hit and pay attention to the rate the hp is lowering. As soon as I see drop within the hp limit, I take a memory photo of what the hp bar looks like and last hit. Keep doing that so that you can easily recognize simply by the visual hp bar to know when to hit (melee minions are a bit tankier then range so keep that in mind). Just play enough and I promise it will come to you either way. It just takes time. Also using tumble to last hit easier isnt a bad idea although you can go oom and be vulnerable if you do it recklessly (they have a cc nearby).
I personally do boots if I see someone I need mobility against (blitz and leona come to mind) and mainly start with it considering vayne has a SHITTY SHITTY early game (pre-6). But going boots, 2 dorans, scept isnt a bad early item setup.
its pretty funny if youre way ahead, the 3 auto crits is like 100% a kill on their ad carry or support really
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On December 23 2012 06:55 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 01:39 heroyi wrote:
wtf is up with all the vayne players rushing SOTD? I keep seeing them going for boots then vamp scept, sotd...I mean looking at the price and stat I would rather get a PD then that piece of shit mid game item..
different topic:
to play vayne you literally just sit in the back and wait. This may sound counter productive but she is wayyy too squishy and doesnt have any strong safety nets in comparison to other adcs (kog has his super range for example). Let everyone waste their CCs (especially the apc) then dive in. Her dps is so damn good that losing one team member isnt a big deal (unless someone got caught and no cooldowns were thrown).
zeross:
You should try to finish an item quickly (dont have a bunch of unfinished items) especially the BT just to get the stacks flowing (and i hope the LW isnt on your mandatory list but rather an optional and flexible option).The lifesteal runes dont add up much especialy when you dont have any dps to make up the percentage aspect of them. Also the AD quints help out A LOT with the last hitting which is usually why people put it up (considering there isnt any other strong option other than MS and defensive quints).
For the last hit:
Just get better. Honestly as long as you have one AD then anyone can last hit. What I use to do in the beginning is I would click on an minion that I would try to last hit and pay attention to the rate the hp is lowering. As soon as I see drop within the hp limit, I take a memory photo of what the hp bar looks like and last hit. Keep doing that so that you can easily recognize simply by the visual hp bar to know when to hit (melee minions are a bit tankier then range so keep that in mind). Just play enough and I promise it will come to you either way. It just takes time. Also using tumble to last hit easier isnt a bad idea although you can go oom and be vulnerable if you do it recklessly (they have a cc nearby).
I personally do boots if I see someone I need mobility against (blitz and leona come to mind) and mainly start with it considering vayne has a SHITTY SHITTY early game (pre-6). But going boots, 2 dorans, scept isnt a bad early item setup. its pretty funny if youre way ahead, the 3 auto crits is like 100% a kill on their ad carry or support really
I am guessing R + Tumble + Guaranteed crit -> instant death.
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I'm confused because in his AMA doublelift said "The time where low range low base stat champs like Vayne can carry has passed." But with the season 3 changes, you hit late game earlier with the increased passive gold and vayne has the same range as most adcs. So she seems even more viable than ever.
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Re: SotD - I find that with SotD vayne can explode someone who gets out of position extremely briefly, whereas she can't really threaten high priority targets as much in fights due to her low range. I may just be playing with bad players, but being able to explode an AP/AD carry for a moment of bad positioning that would otherwise be an auto or two can really swing fights.
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sotd is fine. just not first item. maybe second item, and only in situations where you feel like you can get away with burst.
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On December 23 2012 07:01 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 06:55 arb wrote:On December 23 2012 01:39 heroyi wrote:
wtf is up with all the vayne players rushing SOTD? I keep seeing them going for boots then vamp scept, sotd...I mean looking at the price and stat I would rather get a PD then that piece of shit mid game item..
different topic:
to play vayne you literally just sit in the back and wait. This may sound counter productive but she is wayyy too squishy and doesnt have any strong safety nets in comparison to other adcs (kog has his super range for example). Let everyone waste their CCs (especially the apc) then dive in. Her dps is so damn good that losing one team member isnt a big deal (unless someone got caught and no cooldowns were thrown).
zeross:
You should try to finish an item quickly (dont have a bunch of unfinished items) especially the BT just to get the stacks flowing (and i hope the LW isnt on your mandatory list but rather an optional and flexible option).The lifesteal runes dont add up much especialy when you dont have any dps to make up the percentage aspect of them. Also the AD quints help out A LOT with the last hitting which is usually why people put it up (considering there isnt any other strong option other than MS and defensive quints).
For the last hit:
Just get better. Honestly as long as you have one AD then anyone can last hit. What I use to do in the beginning is I would click on an minion that I would try to last hit and pay attention to the rate the hp is lowering. As soon as I see drop within the hp limit, I take a memory photo of what the hp bar looks like and last hit. Keep doing that so that you can easily recognize simply by the visual hp bar to know when to hit (melee minions are a bit tankier then range so keep that in mind). Just play enough and I promise it will come to you either way. It just takes time. Also using tumble to last hit easier isnt a bad idea although you can go oom and be vulnerable if you do it recklessly (they have a cc nearby).
I personally do boots if I see someone I need mobility against (blitz and leona come to mind) and mainly start with it considering vayne has a SHITTY SHITTY early game (pre-6). But going boots, 2 dorans, scept isnt a bad early item setup. its pretty funny if youre way ahead, the 3 auto crits is like 100% a kill on their ad carry or support really I am guessing R + Tumble + Guaranteed crit -> instant death.
Ya, its actually pretty funny to watch if youre really fed. I'd get like PD or something if i was even/behind tho(which is more likely)
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On December 05 2012 05:14 zeross wrote:
hi, i'm a fairly new lol player (hiting 30 soon), and i mostly play adc.
i tried a lot, and i'm thinking of maining vayne.
i usualy start of my game with boots, bf sword, vamp scepter, zeal, IE, phantom dancer, last whisper, GA, BT
i know its not the greatest build, but it was working well vs bots and was good for most adc
i've buyed my runes as folow :
mark : 1 crit chance (for better then 0, it still crit sometimes :p), then only armor pene
seal : only armor
glyph : only magic res per level
quint : life steal
i know there is absolutly no guide (none that i've seen) that suggest life steal quint, but i thought they would be cool and bought them.
are those atk dmg very so powerful that every build recomand them ? i thought 6 .75 wouldn't change so much and life steal seemed more attracting.
now, because of this, and because i'm still a noob, i have some problems last hiting.
should i change my mark+quint to atk dmg ? or should i buy a doran blade or two after my boots ? (or should i just get better at last hitting without changing anything :p)
This is strictly better:
Quints: Flat AD
Marks: Flat AD
Seals: Flat Armor
Glyphs: Flat MR or MR/lv
21/9/0
Your build is 100% gimping your ability to win early game with the mindset of "surviving" the lane phase, and Vayne already has one of the toughest early games. Flat AD is to make it easier to last hit early and to give you some harass power with q. Think about how much damage one shot from Vayne does, then think of how much in actual healing 6% of that is. It's probably like under 3 hp an attack. You'd be better off running flat HP regen quints.
Take our word for it and set yourself up right. Don't try to be fancy until you have the basics down and understand the game a bit more.
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I feel like I'm a very bad person for laughing while reading through the OP...
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On December 23 2012 11:40 Tatari wrote:
I feel like I'm a very bad person for laughing while reading through the OP...
I don't XD
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On December 23 2012 11:05 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 05:14 zeross wrote:
hi, i'm a fairly new lol player (hiting 30 soon), and i mostly play adc.
i tried a lot, and i'm thinking of maining vayne.
i usualy start of my game with boots, bf sword, vamp scepter, zeal, IE, phantom dancer, last whisper, GA, BT
i know its not the greatest build, but it was working well vs bots and was good for most adc
i've buyed my runes as folow :
mark : 1 crit chance (for better then 0, it still crit sometimes :p), then only armor pene
seal : only armor
glyph : only magic res per level
quint : life steal
i know there is absolutly no guide (none that i've seen) that suggest life steal quint, but i thought they would be cool and bought them.
are those atk dmg very so powerful that every build recomand them ? i thought 6 .75 wouldn't change so much and life steal seemed more attracting.
now, because of this, and because i'm still a noob, i have some problems last hiting.
should i change my mark+quint to atk dmg ? or should i buy a doran blade or two after my boots ? (or should i just get better at last hitting without changing anything :p) This is strictly better: Quints: Flat AD Marks: Flat AD Seals: Flat Armor Glyphs: Flat MR or MR/lv 21/9/0 Your build is 100% gimping your ability to win early game with the mindset of "surviving" the lane phase, and Vayne already has one of the toughest early games. Flat AD is to make it easier to last hit early and to give you some harass power with q. Think about how much damage one shot from Vayne does, then think of how much in actual healing 6% of that is. It's probably like under 3 hp an attack. You'd be better off running flat HP regen quints. Take our word for it and set yourself up right. Don't try to be fancy until you have the basics down and understand the game a bit more.
I've seen a few games from our own Entenzwerg playing Vayne with LS quints (during season2), and I believe he has the adc basics down more than any of us here.
If Vayne has such a hard time early it makes no sense for me to take 21/9/0 masteries every game. What's wrong with 17/13/0? Vayne doesn't need the last 4 points in offense to do ridiculous damage once she has items and the damage reduction is clealrly helpful early.
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The difference between 3 shotting someone and 4 shotting someone is huge, and let's be clear about what you're taking LS for--are you using it to sustain in lane, or are you using it because you're not planning on getting a vamp scepter?
If you're using it to survive lane, then A) work on laning and B) take hp regen instead because it's more healing.
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Fellow Vayne players:
How do I deal with Ez/Sona botlane as Vayne? When I play with a support player that I know, I can somewhat handle it. But with rando soloQ supports it's difficult to get the same level of coordination. Are there any good lane combos that can handle the harass and/or straight up kill them, or should I just pray they let me farm?
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On January 01 2013 02:30 Mondeezy wrote:
Fellow Vayne players:
How do I deal with Ez/Sona botlane as Vayne? When I play with a support player that I know, I can somewhat handle it. But with rando soloQ supports it's difficult to get the same level of coordination. Are there any good lane combos that can handle the harass and/or straight up kill them, or should I just pray they let me farm?
Bot lane is determined by support match ups. AD carry picks, not as much.
Get a Taric or Leona and initiate on the Sona. You aren't ever going to catch the Ezreal unless both of his blinks are down.
Or just passive farm. Picking Nunu into a Sona is just flat out retarded.
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So, since ADs are somewhat disadvantaged until the very lategame, my thought was like "If ADs suck right now, I might as well try some Vayne again for the lategame". Surprisingly, I had decent succes with 9/21/0, Doran's Blade, +15 AD runes start. Even former nightmares like the Corki matchup are doable if your support is not completey retarded.
Does someone know what Doublelift run in yesterday's LCS NA?
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I think he was running Lifesteal quints. He was definitely getting noteworthy lifesteal mid/lategame off minions with no vamp scepter and 1 doran.
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I don't see him getting any lifesteal until Vamp. Are you positive you didn't just miss it in his inventory?
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I'm so pumped for the next patch^^;;
BoTRK (if it hits live servers unchanged^^). will be my first itemI think, AS+Lifesteal+self-peel active ^.^
On top of that: Base AS buff and Q mana cost buff and mana / lvl buff :o
ill be hunting so many bad guys if thoses changes hit :D
edits: im tired as fuck <.<
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Just wondering if any experienced Vayne players can help me out with Vayne vs Caitlyn laning if your support is somewhat of a liability.
In 5's I just rely on my support to protect me until I have ult, and can slam her. But in soloq if I have a good support its great, but if I have a bad support I'm totally lost in that matchup.
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On March 04 2013 11:11 RagequitBM wrote:
Just wondering if any experienced Vayne players can help me out with Vayne vs Caitlyn laning if your support is somewhat of a liability.
In 5's I just rely on my support to protect me until I have ult, and can slam her. But in soloq if I have a good support its great, but if I have a bad support I'm totally lost in that matchup.
ehhhh
I'm pretty sure there's nothing you can do. I don't play Cait or Vayne OFTEN but if you know that there is something you can do ex. When we hit level 4 all in, try to to communicate that. Sometimes soloq sucks like that
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On March 04 2013 11:11 RagequitBM wrote:
Just wondering if any experienced Vayne players can help me out with Vayne vs Caitlyn laning if your support is somewhat of a liability.
In 5's I just rely on my support to protect me until I have ult, and can slam her. But in soloq if I have a good support its great, but if I have a bad support I'm totally lost in that matchup.
While having a good support will help you when it comes to laning, it won't change anything specifically when looking at the Vayne vs Caitlyn match-up.
Vayne is a late-game orientated champion with one of the weakest early games out of all ADCs. Caitlyn is a mid-late game orientated champion with one of the strongest early games out of all ADCs in the laning phase. As Vayne, you are naturally at a huge disadvantage and you can expect to come out of the laning phase with a farm deficit compared to the Caitlyn (assuming you are playing against competent players who know how to abuse Caitlyn's finer points and last hit simultaneously).
The only real thing you can do against Caitlyn as Vayne are the following:
- If you are really uncomfortable against Caitlyn and find laning against her a nightmare (we're talking excess Nocturne levels; laning against Caitlyn is already a nightmare, we know) then I recommend taking a tanky support that will help defend you (someone like Alistar, who possesses some sustain in the form of a heal and protection in the form of his innate tankiness and CC) - this helps ease the pressure somewhat, but can still be countered by your opponents.
- Never try and make trades with Caitlyn at any stage unless you are absolutely guaranteed to be able to come out on top. Your main focus as Vayne is to farm in the laning phase and come out equal to your opposing ADC. Achieving this against a Caitlyn (a good one) is realistically hard, so it's best to just farm up as safe as you can and not leave yourself exposed. Caitlyn has a range of 650 while Vayne has a range of 550 - and a Caitlyn that waddles throughout the bushes to abuse her passive mechanic can utilise potent harass against you.
- Ask for the Jungler to gank your lane. This is one of the only true things you can do to try and even the score between you and Caitlyn. While she may be a potent character and great at harassing, squishies aren't exactly built to handle several champions trying to kill them. Caitlyn is no exception! Have your support try and purple ward the river and have the Jungler come down to assist you, and make sure you have an aggressive support who can provide CC to enable kill potential (Taric, Blitzcrank, Alistar to name a few).
- If you are uncomfortable when it comes to farming under your turret while pressured, make sure that you keep an eye on the minion wave itself. This is basic ADC material, but always make sure that if you are being pushed into your turret, and you yourself know that you are not the best last hitter, then focus on pushing the lane back into the centre of the lane. Caitlyn's range and piltover peacemakers, coupled with her ability to zone you out (even at your turret) through the use of her traps can make last hitting a very sensitive issue.
- If you find yourself struggling to last hit against a Caitlyn and are using a late-game rune page (i.e. Armor Penetration marks, etc) then make sure you change that to the usual Flat AD set-up (AD quints, marks)! This helps you lane a little more and helps you with your last hitting if you find yourself struggling in that department. While this last point might not be the best of advice, it's still something to consider.
The majority of professionals will always open up with a Doran's Blade to begin with regardless, but if you find yourself uncomfortable against Caitlyn and fear her potent laning phase, then don't be afraid to stick to the longsword and two potions route, or even the traditional boots and three potions if you must. Your main aim is to try and farm as much as you can and get out of the laning phase in a position were you are able to salvage your situation.
tl;dr Play safe, farm as safe and best as you can and make sure not to get yourself in danger during the laning phase. Coming out behind on cs is okay as long as you don't end up giving her a bunch of kills, that greatly reduces your ability to make a comeback later on in the game.
I'd just like to mention that I am not a good player, nor am I Doublelift or a replica of him or any other known Vayne player, but I consider my knowledge to be average. This does not mean that I don't make mistakes, so if you disagree with any of the points I've made, or if I have mentioned anything wrong, I apologise beforehand.
I would also like to say that I run the following runes and masteries:
Runes: - AD Marks ~ AD Quints ~ Armor Seals ~ Magic Resistance Glyphs -
Masteries: 21 / 9 / 0 - The extra health, armour and bonuses to common summoners on Vayne (Cleanse / Barrier) is highly valuable in this match-up and for most Vayne players to supplement their early game.
Thank you for reading and I hope this helped!
Saber96 (EUW).
Edit: Added the last bullet paragraph. Added the runes / masteries.
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On March 04 2013 13:17 Saber96 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 11:11 RagequitBM wrote:
Just wondering if any experienced Vayne players can help me out with Vayne vs Caitlyn laning if your support is somewhat of a liability.
In 5's I just rely on my support to protect me until I have ult, and can slam her. But in soloq if I have a good support its great, but if I have a bad support I'm totally lost in that matchup. While having a good support will help you when it comes to laning, it won't change anything specifically when looking at the Vayne vs Caitlyn match-up. Vayne is a late-game orientated champion with one of the weakest early games out of all ADCs. Caitlyn is a mid-late game orientated champion with one of the strongest early games out of all ADCs in the laning phase. As Vayne, you are naturally at a huge disadvantage and you can expect to come out of the laning phase with a farm deficit compared to the Caitlyn (assuming you are playing against competent players who know how to abuse Caitlyn's finer points and last hit simultaneously). The only real thing you can do against Caitlyn as Vayne are the following: - If you are really uncomfortable against Caitlyn and find laning against her a nightmare (we're talking excess Nocturne levels; laning against Caitlyn is already a nightmare, we know) then I recommend taking a tanky support that will help defend you (someone like Alistar, who possesses some sustain in the form of a heal and protection in the form of his innate tankiness and CC) - this helps ease the pressure somewhat, but can still be countered by your opponents.
- Never try and make trades with Caitlyn at any stage unless you are absolutely guaranteed to be able to come out on top. Your main focus as Vayne is to farm in the laning phase and come out equal to your opposing ADC. Achieving this against a Caitlyn (a good one) is realistically hard, so it's best to just farm up as safe as you can and not leave yourself exposed. Caitlyn has a range of 650 while Vayne has a range of 550 - and a Caitlyn that waddles throughout the bushes to abuse her passive mechanic can utilise potent harass against you.
- Ask for the Jungler to gank your lane. This is one of the only true things you can do to try and even the score between you and Caitlyn. While she may be a potent character and great at harassing, squishies aren't exactly built to handle several champions trying to kill them. Caitlyn is no exception! Have your support try and purple ward the river and have the Jungler come down to assist you, and make sure you have an aggressive support who can provide CC to enable kill potential (Taric, Blitzcrank, Alistar to name a few).
- If you are uncomfortable when it comes to farming under your turret while pressured, make sure that you keep an eye on the minion wave itself. This is basic ADC material, but always make sure that if you are being pushed into your turret, and you yourself know that you are not the best last hitter, then focus on pushing the lane back into the centre of the lane. Caitlyn's range and piltover peacemakers, coupled with her ability to zone you out (even at your turret) through the use of her traps can make last hitting a very sensitive issue.
- If you find yourself struggling to last hit against a Caitlyn and are using a late-game rune page (i.e. Armor Penetration marks, etc) then make sure you change that to the usual Flat AD set-up (AD quints, marks)! This helps you lane a little more and helps you with your last hitting if you find yourself struggling in that department. While this last point might not be the best of advice, it's still something to consider.
The majority of professionals will always open up with a Doran's Blade to begin with regardless, but if you find yourself uncomfortable against Caitlyn and fear her potent laning phase, then don't be afraid to stick to the longsword and two potions route, or even the traditional boots and three potions if you must. Your main aim is to try and farm as much as you can and get out of the laning phase in a position were you are able to salvage your situation. tl;dr Play safe, farm as safe and best as you can and make sure not to get yourself in danger during the laning phase. Coming out behind on cs is okay as long as you don't end up giving her a bunch of kills, that greatly reduces your ability to make a comeback later on in the game. I'd just like to mention that I am not a good player, nor am I Doublelift or a replica of him or any other known Vayne player, but I consider my knowledge to be average. This does not mean that I don't make mistakes, so if you disagree with any of the points I've made, or if I have mentioned anything wrong, I apologise beforehand. I would also like to say that I run the following runes and masteries: Runes: - AD Marks ~ AD Quints ~ Armor Seals ~ Magic Resistance Glyphs - Masteries: 21 / 9 / 0 - The extra health, armour and bonuses to common summoners on Vayne (Cleanse / Barrier) is highly valuable in this match-up and for most Vayne players to supplement their early game. Thank you for reading and I hope this helped! Saber96 (EUW). Edit: Added the last bullet paragraph. Added the runes / masteries.
Great tips, I just wanted to add that it could be viable to go 16/14/0 masteries for the block mastery, you get harrassed quite a lot against cait lanes, and 5 less damage from every auto adds up.
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On March 04 2013 15:57 zodde wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 13:17 Saber96 wrote:On March 04 2013 11:11 RagequitBM wrote:
Just wondering if any experienced Vayne players can help me out with Vayne vs Caitlyn laning if your support is somewhat of a liability.
In 5's I just rely on my support to protect me until I have ult, and can slam her. But in soloq if I have a good support its great, but if I have a bad support I'm totally lost in that matchup. While having a good support will help you when it comes to laning, it won't change anything specifically when looking at the Vayne vs Caitlyn match-up. Vayne is a late-game orientated champion with one of the weakest early games out of all ADCs. Caitlyn is a mid-late game orientated champion with one of the strongest early games out of all ADCs in the laning phase. As Vayne, you are naturally at a huge disadvantage and you can expect to come out of the laning phase with a farm deficit compared to the Caitlyn (assuming you are playing against competent players who know how to abuse Caitlyn's finer points and last hit simultaneously). The only real thing you can do against Caitlyn as Vayne are the following: - If you are really uncomfortable against Caitlyn and find laning against her a nightmare (we're talking excess Nocturne levels; laning against Caitlyn is already a nightmare, we know) then I recommend taking a tanky support that will help defend you (someone like Alistar, who possesses some sustain in the form of a heal and protection in the form of his innate tankiness and CC) - this helps ease the pressure somewhat, but can still be countered by your opponents.
- Never try and make trades with Caitlyn at any stage unless you are absolutely guaranteed to be able to come out on top. Your main focus as Vayne is to farm in the laning phase and come out equal to your opposing ADC. Achieving this against a Caitlyn (a good one) is realistically hard, so it's best to just farm up as safe as you can and not leave yourself exposed. Caitlyn has a range of 650 while Vayne has a range of 550 - and a Caitlyn that waddles throughout the bushes to abuse her passive mechanic can utilise potent harass against you.
- Ask for the Jungler to gank your lane. This is one of the only true things you can do to try and even the score between you and Caitlyn. While she may be a potent character and great at harassing, squishies aren't exactly built to handle several champions trying to kill them. Caitlyn is no exception! Have your support try and purple ward the river and have the Jungler come down to assist you, and make sure you have an aggressive support who can provide CC to enable kill potential (Taric, Blitzcrank, Alistar to name a few).
- If you are uncomfortable when it comes to farming under your turret while pressured, make sure that you keep an eye on the minion wave itself. This is basic ADC material, but always make sure that if you are being pushed into your turret, and you yourself know that you are not the best last hitter, then focus on pushing the lane back into the centre of the lane. Caitlyn's range and piltover peacemakers, coupled with her ability to zone you out (even at your turret) through the use of her traps can make last hitting a very sensitive issue.
- If you find yourself struggling to last hit against a Caitlyn and are using a late-game rune page (i.e. Armor Penetration marks, etc) then make sure you change that to the usual Flat AD set-up (AD quints, marks)! This helps you lane a little more and helps you with your last hitting if you find yourself struggling in that department. While this last point might not be the best of advice, it's still something to consider.
The majority of professionals will always open up with a Doran's Blade to begin with regardless, but if you find yourself uncomfortable against Caitlyn and fear her potent laning phase, then don't be afraid to stick to the longsword and two potions route, or even the traditional boots and three potions if you must. Your main aim is to try and farm as much as you can and get out of the laning phase in a position were you are able to salvage your situation. tl;dr Play safe, farm as safe and best as you can and make sure not to get yourself in danger during the laning phase. Coming out behind on cs is okay as long as you don't end up giving her a bunch of kills, that greatly reduces your ability to make a comeback later on in the game. I'd just like to mention that I am not a good player, nor am I Doublelift or a replica of him or any other known Vayne player, but I consider my knowledge to be average. This does not mean that I don't make mistakes, so if you disagree with any of the points I've made, or if I have mentioned anything wrong, I apologise beforehand. I would also like to say that I run the following runes and masteries: Runes: - AD Marks ~ AD Quints ~ Armor Seals ~ Magic Resistance Glyphs - Masteries: 21 / 9 / 0 - The extra health, armour and bonuses to common summoners on Vayne (Cleanse / Barrier) is highly valuable in this match-up and for most Vayne players to supplement their early game. Thank you for reading and I hope this helped! Saber96 (EUW). Edit: Added the last bullet paragraph. Added the runes / masteries. Great tips, I just wanted to add that it could be viable to go 16/14/0 masteries for the block mastery, you get harrassed quite a lot against cait lanes, and 5 less damage from every auto adds up.
Would a Doran's shield + block mastery be a silly idea for that lane matchup? 6 more block pretty good!
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On March 04 2013 18:32 Wetty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 15:57 zodde wrote:On March 04 2013 13:17 Saber96 wrote:On March 04 2013 11:11 RagequitBM wrote:
Just wondering if any experienced Vayne players can help me out with Vayne vs Caitlyn laning if your support is somewhat of a liability.
In 5's I just rely on my support to protect me until I have ult, and can slam her. But in soloq if I have a good support its great, but if I have a bad support I'm totally lost in that matchup. While having a good support will help you when it comes to laning, it won't change anything specifically when looking at the Vayne vs Caitlyn match-up. Vayne is a late-game orientated champion with one of the weakest early games out of all ADCs. Caitlyn is a mid-late game orientated champion with one of the strongest early games out of all ADCs in the laning phase. As Vayne, you are naturally at a huge disadvantage and you can expect to come out of the laning phase with a farm deficit compared to the Caitlyn (assuming you are playing against competent players who know how to abuse Caitlyn's finer points and last hit simultaneously). The only real thing you can do against Caitlyn as Vayne are the following: - If you are really uncomfortable against Caitlyn and find laning against her a nightmare (we're talking excess Nocturne levels; laning against Caitlyn is already a nightmare, we know) then I recommend taking a tanky support that will help defend you (someone like Alistar, who possesses some sustain in the form of a heal and protection in the form of his innate tankiness and CC) - this helps ease the pressure somewhat, but can still be countered by your opponents.
- Never try and make trades with Caitlyn at any stage unless you are absolutely guaranteed to be able to come out on top. Your main focus as Vayne is to farm in the laning phase and come out equal to your opposing ADC. Achieving this against a Caitlyn (a good one) is realistically hard, so it's best to just farm up as safe as you can and not leave yourself exposed. Caitlyn has a range of 650 while Vayne has a range of 550 - and a Caitlyn that waddles throughout the bushes to abuse her passive mechanic can utilise potent harass against you.
- Ask for the Jungler to gank your lane. This is one of the only true things you can do to try and even the score between you and Caitlyn. While she may be a potent character and great at harassing, squishies aren't exactly built to handle several champions trying to kill them. Caitlyn is no exception! Have your support try and purple ward the river and have the Jungler come down to assist you, and make sure you have an aggressive support who can provide CC to enable kill potential (Taric, Blitzcrank, Alistar to name a few).
- If you are uncomfortable when it comes to farming under your turret while pressured, make sure that you keep an eye on the minion wave itself. This is basic ADC material, but always make sure that if you are being pushed into your turret, and you yourself know that you are not the best last hitter, then focus on pushing the lane back into the centre of the lane. Caitlyn's range and piltover peacemakers, coupled with her ability to zone you out (even at your turret) through the use of her traps can make last hitting a very sensitive issue.
- If you find yourself struggling to last hit against a Caitlyn and are using a late-game rune page (i.e. Armor Penetration marks, etc) then make sure you change that to the usual Flat AD set-up (AD quints, marks)! This helps you lane a little more and helps you with your last hitting if you find yourself struggling in that department. While this last point might not be the best of advice, it's still something to consider.
The majority of professionals will always open up with a Doran's Blade to begin with regardless, but if you find yourself uncomfortable against Caitlyn and fear her potent laning phase, then don't be afraid to stick to the longsword and two potions route, or even the traditional boots and three potions if you must. Your main aim is to try and farm as much as you can and get out of the laning phase in a position were you are able to salvage your situation. tl;dr Play safe, farm as safe and best as you can and make sure not to get yourself in danger during the laning phase. Coming out behind on cs is okay as long as you don't end up giving her a bunch of kills, that greatly reduces your ability to make a comeback later on in the game. I'd just like to mention that I am not a good player, nor am I Doublelift or a replica of him or any other known Vayne player, but I consider my knowledge to be average. This does not mean that I don't make mistakes, so if you disagree with any of the points I've made, or if I have mentioned anything wrong, I apologise beforehand. I would also like to say that I run the following runes and masteries: Runes: - AD Marks ~ AD Quints ~ Armor Seals ~ Magic Resistance Glyphs - Masteries: 21 / 9 / 0 - The extra health, armour and bonuses to common summoners on Vayne (Cleanse / Barrier) is highly valuable in this match-up and for most Vayne players to supplement their early game. Thank you for reading and I hope this helped! Saber96 (EUW). Edit: Added the last bullet paragraph. Added the runes / masteries. Great tips, I just wanted to add that it could be viable to go 16/14/0 masteries for the block mastery, you get harrassed quite a lot against cait lanes, and 5 less damage from every auto adds up. Would a Doran's shield + block mastery be a silly idea for that lane matchup? 6 more block pretty good!
I would say doran's blade or a rush to vamp scepter is always better for sustain in lane. The shield is just going to gimp you even further, the idea is to stay as even as you reasonably can untill the late midgame, the shield puts you behind right from the start.
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On March 01 2013 04:19 RagequitBM wrote:
I don't see him getting any lifesteal until Vamp. Are you positive you didn't just miss it in his inventory?
He didn't have a vamp scepter in some games at the 25 minute mark, and was getting non-insignificant lifesteal amounts from minions. Pretty sure the lifesteal quints are, as 5HIT said, to skip the necessity of vamp and go straight to IE/PD.
Shit, phreak and jatt were even talking about how he didn't have a vamp scepter in MRN vs CLG, and that it was the shortcut he took to be even in items despite being behind in gold.
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ive been debating alot on what items to get exactly.
Any high elo can comment on these two builds which I think are standard for most ppl.
botrk>pd>ie>lw>(defensive or bt)
bt>pd>ie>lw>(defensive or botrk)
what i'm concerned with is the difference in AS if you go BT first. As vayne, AS takes adv of its w passive. But at the same time, you give up 75AD for the AS. What do you think?
Maybe you can even skip lw and go for shive or zephyr?
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On March 19 2013 10:26 .ImchEEzy wrote:
ive been debating alot on what items to get exactly.
Any high elo can comment on these two builds which I think are standard for most ppl.
botrk>pd>ie>lw>(defensive or bt)
bt>pd>ie>lw>(defensive or botrk)
what i'm concerned with is the difference in AS if you go BT first. As vayne, AS takes adv of its w passive. But at the same time, you give up 75AD for the AS. What do you think?
Maybe you can even skip lw and go for shive or zephyr?
Doublelife said in his AMA on reddit that he didn't like botrk as a first item on vayne. He said that if he went botrk -> pd, he didn't have enough AD, and if he went botrk -> ad item, he didn't have enough attack speed.
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so how did he solve that problem?
BT>pd doesn't solve the AS problem like botrk>AD item
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Could go BtoRK - > Zephyr.
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Can't you then potentially get BotRK > Zeal > AD item to bridge that lack of attack speed gap?
Personally i think, given the meta is dominated by tanky dps and health items, botrk into pd is almost always enough damage to get you those mid game kills to set you up for late game
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Dlift never solves shit wtf. He just goes bt pd instead of messing with bortk. Bt start gived him better late game and easier last hiting which is what he caes about more then the bortk active.
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I like Botrk PD personally. The extra damage from Botrk against their front line makes up for lack of AD.
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I think W first is godlike if you go Bork first. I smash my lane everytime. But I don't think you're as good in teamfights just because your tumble cooldown is basically a million years at low level.
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But with BORK first, you can use the active MS to kite in early fights to make up for the lack of tumble.
I dunno, I'm so terrible at Vayne it's hard to contribute.
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On March 26 2013 13:59 Mondeezy wrote:So looking at this site http://www.probuilds.net/champions/Vayne I noticed that the KR Vayne players max W first, and NA max Q first. Thoughts? I've never really given W a shot..
Some of those KR vayne builds make literally 0 sense. Vamp scepter -> PD -> 2 daggers when you're clearly losing ground and caitlyn is pulling ahead - seems like finishing bilgewater would have made a lot more sense and probably kept you alive better.
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On March 26 2013 19:26 sylverfyre wrote:Some of those KR vayne builds make literally 0 sense. Vamp scepter -> PD -> 2 daggers when you're clearly losing ground and caitlyn is pulling ahead - seems like finishing bilgewater would have made a lot more sense and probably kept you alive better.
Yeah that's why I posted to see if maybe someone could explain it to me. Tumble cdr seems way more valuable for staying alive than 1% more HP damage or w/e. Then again I know KR teams put more emphasis on mid and top to carry so who knows.
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KR teams also have their lane phase end so quickly oftentimes (and ive seen laneswaps in their soloq too) that Tumble's lane safety seems like it might be stunted heavily. But still... Vamp Scepter -> PD seems so bad. At least buy the bilgewater D:
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On March 19 2013 10:34 zodde wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 10:26 .ImchEEzy wrote:
ive been debating alot on what items to get exactly.
Any high elo can comment on these two builds which I think are standard for most ppl.
botrk>pd>ie>lw>(defensive or bt)
bt>pd>ie>lw>(defensive or botrk)
what i'm concerned with is the difference in AS if you go BT first. As vayne, AS takes adv of its w passive. But at the same time, you give up 75AD for the AS. What do you think?
Maybe you can even skip lw and go for shive or zephyr? Doublelife said in his AMA on reddit that he didn't like botrk as a first item on vayne. He said that if he went botrk -> pd, he didn't have enough AD, and if he went botrk -> ad item, he didn't have enough attack speed.
I think how DL and pros play Vayne is different from solo queue Vayne. DL plays in comps that revolve around him, with his entire team actively peeling for him. In Solo Queue, you don't have that luxury. Personally, I love BoTRK for the active and it's kiting/dueling potential, as solo queue benefits from catching people out more often than in pro games.
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I really wonder if the aspd difference of botrk and PD makes that much of a difference, I doubt it.
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It's nothing a single Dagger won't fix. Literally.
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On March 26 2013 19:26 sylverfyre wrote:Some of those KR vayne builds make literally 0 sense. Vamp scepter -> PD -> 2 daggers when you're clearly losing ground and caitlyn is pulling ahead - seems like finishing bilgewater would have made a lot more sense and probably kept you alive better.
Their reasoning is probably just: if I have W maxed and tons of AS, I can easily just activate R and kill cait even if she's ahead in gold. PD first is such an old build though; i thought they would go for statik shiv instead.
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why is vayne so unpopular these days. Shes a beast late game.
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She doesn't seem unpopular to me. I've been seeing mostly Vayne, Cait, or MF.
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On April 17 2013 23:16 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:26 sylverfyre wrote:On March 26 2013 13:59 Mondeezy wrote:So looking at this site http://www.probuilds.net/champions/Vayne I noticed that the KR Vayne players max W first, and NA max Q first. Thoughts? I've never really given W a shot.. Some of those KR vayne builds make literally 0 sense. Vamp scepter -> PD -> 2 daggers when you're clearly losing ground and caitlyn is pulling ahead - seems like finishing bilgewater would have made a lot more sense and probably kept you alive better. Their reasoning is probably just: if I have W maxed and tons of AS, I can easily just activate R and kill cait even if she's ahead in gold. PD first is such an old build though; i thought they would go for statik shiv instead.
I think the reasoning behind PD is that it scales better into 3+ items. Considering that's the part of the game where vayne starts to seriously ramp up, it makes sense to itemize towards that. Shiv is a lot stronger when you can poke with the AD(cait, ez) or you have massive burst that you can unload for midgame fights(Graves, Draven).
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From my understanding, Koreans go Shiv first for two reasons:
1) the build path and
2) pushing lanes
If you look at the build path for BT vs SS you see that SS builds from a bunch of 400 cheap items and as a vayne player it's much easier to acquire these items than to save 1550 for a BF sword with your weak early game. Saving 1550 gold means you won't have any items for a long time.
Also, you might say that PD and BotRK build from cheap items as well. That is why the second reason is pushing lanes. If you notice, Koreans don't focus on champion kills and farming as much as NA scene does. Their main idea is to secure an advantage through towers and dragons. The SS passive helps you push lanes to let you get those objectives faster.
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I've been having huge success with an attackspeed Vayne after I saw Maplestreet use it. I forgo a BF item and open with BotRK into PD followed by Shiv, throwing in something defensive along the way.
Abusing the hell out of her W seems to deal with tanky targets without the need for LW, and squishies were never a problem for Vayne anyway.
Anyone else building her like this?
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I've been playing Vayne ever since I started this game which was last year. It's really surprising to see so many Vayne picks and bans now. I've always played Vayne against many ADCs even Cait because I knew I could outplay other ADCs when I get lv6. As long as I didn't die pre 6 I would be fine.
As far as building Vayne, I like BotRK -> PD/SS -> LW -> IE -> GA/QSS. I feel like getting a LW is critical even if you have the silver bolts
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I like the guy above me have played vayne as my go to ADC (most games played). To be honest I'm more surprised at her only getting popular now but I guess it's her time in the meta, vayne doesn't really have any horrible match ups, mostly unfavourable ones (graves and cait are the biggest pains) but as long as you have a decent support to baby sit you can get through the early game fine with equal farm.
I've been experimenting a lot with BotRK into Shiv (if I get an early lead) to extend the CS gap and get more ahead, which I will sell and get double PD. I honestly don't think AD is that much of a priority anymore given the meta where health stacking is so predominant.
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On August 02 2013 14:21 Amarok wrote:
I've been having huge success with an attackspeed Vayne after I saw Maplestreet use it. I forgo a BF item and open with BotRK into PD followed by Shiv, throwing in something defensive along the way.
This is the asian build that has been gaining popularity in solo q and NA recently. I don't think you need PD and Shiv, you either need to pick PD for teamfighting/skirmishing or shiv for split pushing.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/641/vayneco.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/707/vayne2.jpg/)
