EPTOn July 21 2011 12:43 Ecael wrote:
Red does not get you to lvl2, you'll miss it by a little.
Red does not get you to lvl2, you'll miss it by a little.
need two wisdom quints
[Champion] Maokai - Page 4
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WhiteNights
United States252 Posts
need two wisdom quints | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On July 21 2011 11:30 oberon wrote: For some reason, I thought that wraiths got you to L2. The stuff on the wiki says otherwise. Can anyone confirm/deny? If not, you'd have to do wolves after gol to hit L3. You get 180 exp before Awareness/Quints/Zilean. Speaking from experience. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On July 20 2011 23:16 oberon wrote: Mathcrafted jungle Mao'kai route The idea here is to be a full level ahead of a jungler who starts blue buff. This lets you be level 3 at 2:15 into the game. Side benefits include starting cloth armor (so you can build into early aegis for your team) and being able to steal your opponent's wraiths. Note that, without either a leash on big blue golem, or additional defensive runes/masteries, he will deal about 200 more damage than you can take. If anyone has the appropriate runes to test this, I'd appreciate it. Mao is free this week, but I don't have all the flat AP runes this requires, and I'm not sure I want to invest 4K IP in case my math is wrong. Open cloth armor, 2 mana potions, 2 health potions At 1:16, E on wraiths (either yours or enemy's -- enemy's is more convenient, but yours are obviously safer). 180 mana remaining; drink mana potion At 1:28, E on blue golem (186 mana remaining, 8s of mana potion remaining) At 1:40, enemy wraiths spawn, E on them (172 mana remaining) old E explodes on wraiths for 88 damage new E impacts on wraiths for 45 damage new E explodes on wraiths for 88 damage, totalling 221 damage, killing small wraiths, leaving big wraith at 129 129 HP means 3 hits at 43.6 damage each, which takes 4.32 seconds 1:45 finish large wraith, reach level 2. 224/296 mana. Begin second mana potion. Begin first health potion (this can be delayed a second or two) head for big blue golem 1:54: E and Q on big blue golem as it spawns. 18 mana and 11s of mana potion remaining old E explodes for 88 damage new E impacts for 45 damage new E explodes for 88 damage Q hits for 75 Total spell damage: 296. 2:06: E big blue golem again. 45 impact, 88 explosion damage, 133 total. This will kill small lizards. 20 mana remaining. Drink 2nd health potion as first ends. 2:15: 15 autoattacks since big blue golem spawned = 753 damage, +133 from recent E, +296 initial spell damage = 1182 total damage. Smite for 470, finishing big blue golem, giving you level 3 About 60 mana right now This can be accelerated by about 1.5s with the addition of 5.5 mana/5 from runes/masteries, as this will allow you an additional Q against big blue golem This can be accelerated if a teammate hangs around to leash big blue golem. This is more important for surviving the fight with blue golem than it is for making it faster Math notes (taken from wiki -- if these are wrong, the above is wrong too!): Big wraith: 350HP, 35 armor, 0MR 1:40 spawntime Little wraith: 220HP, 30 armor, 0MR 1:40 spawntime Blue golem: 1625HP (champ level 2), 24 armor, 0MR 1:54 spawn time Mana potion: 100 mana/10 seconds Health potion: 200 health/10 seconds Maokai: L1: 58 damage + 0.95 = 58.95 (43.6 against 35 armor big wraith) .694 attacks/second -> 1.44s/attack 250 mana 6.7 mana/5 E: 12s cd 70 mana 40 impact damage (+0.4*AP) = 45 80 explosion damage (0.6*AP) = 88 35s duration L2: 61.33 + 0.95 = 62.28 damage (50.2 against 24 armor blue golem) 1.41s/attack 296 mana 7.15 mana/5 Q: 6s cd 55 mana 70 damage (+0.4*AP) = 75 470 damage smite Runes: 9 blue flat AP = 0.99 * 9 = 8.91 1 quint alt AP = 4.95 = 13.86 AP (substitute other runes/masteries as desired) 1 red flat AD = 0.95 AD (substitute other runes/masteries as desired) This all fails at the stage where you auto the red wraith. He has a lot of lifesteal so autoing him without AS/AD/APen takes a painfully huge amount of time. | ||
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oberon
United States1320 Posts
On July 21 2011 16:20 BluzMan wrote: This all fails at the stage where you auto the red wraith. He has a lot of lifesteal so autoing him without AS/AD/APen takes a painfully huge amount of time. Well, there are a lot of rune/mastery slots I wasn't using above. I wonder if those could make that part more efficient? | ||
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Psyonic_Reaver
United States4338 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 08 2011 07:44 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: Is the above information on Jungle Maokai above still current? After reading it I'm a little confused as to how you're supposed to E and Q blue as soon as you start it. To my knowledge, wraiths camp doesn't level you up to 2... I go with roughly what TOO does. Which is blue crystal+2, with 9/0/21. Apen reds, Armor yellows, 3 flat AP and 5 (scaling or flat) mres glyphs, and 3 flat AP quints. The reason for the AP runes is so that you can insta-clear wolves with 4 saplings. I see other guides that only use 3 flat AP quints and no AP glyphs, but I can never make it work; I always end up having to auto the small wolves a lot :\ Basically you want to stack saplings at wolves starting 1:04-1:05. You should stack 3. Then when they spawn, you throw another sapling to kill all the small wolves. Big wolf should need like 2-3 more autoattacks to kill it. Then get leash and ideally some help at blue. Clear blue then do a full clear, ganking when you can. R>Q>E>W, with one level in W at 3 or 4, depending on how early you want to gank. I build RoA->Sheen->tanky/triforce/deathcap as needed. Merc treads vast majority of the time. You can also get dodge boots and build a spellblade for the tenacity if you want. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 08 2011 07:53 Ryuu314 wrote: I go with roughly what TOO does. Which is blue crystal+2, with 9/0/21. Apen reds, Armor yellows, 3 flat AP and 5 (scaling or flat) mres glyphs, and 3 flat AP quints. The reason for the AP runes is so that you can insta-clear wolves with 4 saplings. I see other guides that only use 3 flat AP quints and no AP glyphs, but I can never make it work; I always end up having to auto the small wolves a lot :\ It's not "a lot". I believe it's 2 hits on the big wolf and 1 on each of the small ones. It's fine if you take some damage, because you'll heal off a passive proc after blue gets leashed for you anyway (which would have been wasted if you were full HP). On October 08 2011 07:53 Ryuu314 wrote: Then get leash and ideally some help at blue. Clear blue then do a full clear, ganking when you can. R>Q>E>W, with one level in W at 3 or 4, depending on how early you want to gank. I go R>E>Q>W. Sapling maximizes your burst during ganks, which is, IMO what you want to worry about in levels 3-7. Part of what makes Maokai ganks so disgusting is how much damage getting hit by both hits of the sapling does. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 08 2011 08:26 TheYango wrote: It's not "a lot". I believe it's 2 hits on the big wolf and 1 on each of the small ones. It's fine if you take some damage, because you'll heal off a passive proc after blue gets leashed for you anyway (which would have been wasted if you were full HP). I go R>E>Q>W. Sapling maximizes your burst during ganks, which is, IMO what you want to worry about in levels 3-7. Part of what makes Maokai ganks so disgusting is how much damage getting hit by both hits of the sapling does. Yea, it's not a lot, but I take more damage than I really want lol x] At lvl 1-2 your passive doesn't heal for that much 'cause your HP pool is a bit low. Every bit of HP counts espeically since in solo queue most people just whack the blue golem once and that's it. They don't really like to help. | ||
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icemanzdoinwork
447 Posts
Regrowth/pot | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
My set-up: Apen reds, Flat Armor seals, Mres/level blues, Flat AP quints (explanations in spoiler) + Show Spoiler + I go for apen reds over mpen because the armor penetration helps you clear faster as jungle monsters have armor but no magic resist. Magic pen reds make your ganks do a bit more damage, but I find that it really doesn't make that much of a difference. I prefer jungle speed more. Seals and blues are self-explanatory. You can sub some out for more flat AP runes if you want more damage. Flat AP quints are necessary so you can insta-clear camps. Masteries I go 0/21/9 or 9/21/0 + Show Spoiler + 21 defense lets you clear with more hp and the cdr mastery is really useful for maximizing damage. The initiator mastery is nice as it helps your ganks a bit. The damage return mastery makes your clear a bit faster. As for where to put the 9 points it's up to you. 9 in offense gives you a bit more damage while 9 in utility gives you either more movespeed or more mana/mana regen, which can be useful once you start handing off blue buff+buff duration can be nice too. Start Boots3pot or Regrowth1pot + Show Spoiler + Boots3pot can be used on pretty much any top tier jungler after the jungle remake. Boots gives you an easier time ganking and a faster clear due to getting to camps quicker. Regrowth lets you get your philo faster and saves some gold by not buying so many potions. It's completely up to you; both work fine. I think TOO uses regrowth+1potion. Route: Stack 3 saplings at wraiths before it spawns startin at 1:05. Save your fourth sapling for when wraiths spawn at 1:40. The impact and explosion damage + stacked saplings should 1-shot wraiths camp. Immediately walk to blue and you should reach blue about 1~2 seconds after it spawns at the latest. Get a leash if possible. Clear blue->wolves->wraiths(should have respawned by then)->minigolems then either back or do red. Either way, after you have double buff if you have enough hp go gank. Otherwise back and buy philo/boots. For items I generally go for support stuff like shurelias/aegis/hog->randuins. If you want damage Triforce and/or Deathcap are good options. For armor go with Frozen Heart/Randuins. For mres go with Abyssal/FoN/Banshees. | ||
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
Also TOO runs AS on reds iirc, not mpen. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On December 28 2011 03:26 Ecael wrote: You can't stack 3 and have a 4th in time to clear fast at wraiths. You can however stack 2 and drop a 3rd on spawn. That + 2 autos on big wraith will clear. Stacking 3 at wolves work though. Also TOO runs AS on reds iirc, not mpen. Oops yah that's wat I meant. I'll double check when I get home to make sure. If u grab flat AP runes u can cut more time by eliminating the need to auto the big wraith. If u start at wraiths you still want to make it to lie ASAP. Instaclearing wraiths lets you do that better. Yea TOO runs aspd reds, I just prefer apen. | ||
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
On December 28 2011 03:46 Ryuu314 wrote: Oops yah that's wat I meant. I'll double check when I get home to make sure. If u grab flat AP runes u can cut more time by eliminating the need to auto the big wraith. If u start at wraiths you still want to make it to lie ASAP. Instaclearing wraiths lets you do that better. Yea TOO runs aspd reds, I just prefer apen. You can't clear it with just saplings on only flat ap quints, considering that it takes 2 autos I doubt it'll be done with full ap on blue either. The autos are pretty much necessary and still works out to be effectively instant clear. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On February 23 2012 06:10 TheYango wrote: That's cuz you like your farm. Maokai is good lategame, but he doesn't really want/need a ton of items to do what he needs to do. Jarvan and Voli are great 2nd/3rd position junglers, but suck dick as 4th position. Maokai is one of the best junglers to play 4th position. I don't really agree with this. I mean, if you don't scale well with damage that's great because it's hard enough finding time to buy DPS items on bruisers anyway. If you have tons of armour you're such a huge threat because you give 0 fucks about their ADs damage but can CC them a ton. If you have to be really careful when you engage then you're not anyway near as scary as someone who will W anyone who's any bit out of position. I mean, shurleyas/randuins/frozen heart/fon/mercs is a list of items you want to do your job on maokai and that's already 5 items. | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
But maybe it's because I complete FH first and Randuin's much latter that I find his HP pool doesn't compliment FoN's passive well. As for playstyle, most of the time I end up peeling for my carry rather than sitting on theirs. Makes the root more useful (unless there's someone on your team with a gapcloser to use the opportunity) past the first one used to engage. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Once you're not dying instantly when you go in, Fon combined with your passive gives you pretty insane regen and helps you absorb poke before a teamfight. It gives tons of MR and movement speed which helps you get into range for your W and Q's. I don't see banshee comparing at all. With shurelyas+randuins+red pot or maybe aegis or something you're already at like 3k hp I'd far prefer FoN over banshee. I tend to avoid dying in fights in general, so FoN always seems like a good idea once I have tons of armour/hp. Like, I've never built fon and thought "Damn, that fon didn't do that much for me" in terms of a lategame item on people like maokai and udyr who survive so long in fights even without the regen from it. I don't need the mana at all since typicall I have shurelyas+chalice+frozen heart which means you never ever run oom unless you left your ult on for like 30 seconds without realizing. Often when I engage btw, I tend to W, or W+Q then instantly run away. I mean, it's not like you're doing anything once you use your Cd's so aside from getting behind them for your Q if their AD has like 4 damage items there's no reason to stay taking damage, just run away and wait for cds and throw saplings and ult and heal with passive and fon and stuff. A lot of effectively using items like FoN comes from basic sense and sensibility when it comes to avoiding damage instead of just saying "IM THE TANK COME AT ME BRO". A target with nothing to hit does 0 damage, a target with only maokai to hit still does more than that, and if he has nothing to hit he needs to move closer to a more vulnerable position. If tanks just stood there and tanked all day teamfights would all be about who kills the tanks faster. | ||
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