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On April 06 2012 23:31 Haasts wrote:
If you were to build one damage item on Maokai, what would it be - Sheen (=> TriForce), Rod of Ages, Abyssal Scepter, or, IDK, Wit's End? Usually play him in a v.supportive role, but occasionally I'll get remarkably fed and have a few more options open to me - any suggestions? Been playing a lot of Nautilus, who ostensibly has a lot in common with Mao, but I'm often able to get away with building Naut a lot weirder than Mao - Catalyst into RoA and grabbing boots/5, etc.
You can only RoA if you're laning him, in which case you'd opt for a tanky AP with things like roa/abyssal and not just try to get all your damage off a single item.
In a traditional jungle role you really don't need to build damage, but if you had your heart set on it for whatever reason, I'd go triforce. You have no AD scaling and you don't really benefit from attack speed other than potentially getting a hit in a little quicker after your passive procs in a team fight (which is to say, not a whole lot added in most situations). Triforce at least gives you a little bit of everything and lets you slow something while waiting for Q/W to come back up. Q is a pretty short CD already, though.
If not Triforce, then probably Abyssal. He has good AP ratios and it provides a useful aura for the team while still giving him MR. Most teams tend to be AD heavy, so you only need a little MR (basically what you'd get from mercs + negatron) while needed to stack a lot more armor (randuins+heart frequently). Abyssal's aura (flat reduction) is more useful early on before people start getting MR, but since you normally need the armor first, you wouldn't get the Abyssal until after that point has passed. If you're laning Mao then you can get it earlyish vs a mage because you don't need the armor yet (though if going RoA you'll want to finish that first).
When I get ahead as jungle Maokai I don't try to build damage. Instead I opt for a quick oracles and maybe even a fast Shurelya's, which lets me constantly keep the pressure up. It's hard to kill a tank who's ahead and they'll want to target you more because you have the oracles, but now you're extra tanky (through items from kill gold) + ult + passive + level advantage, so it works out. Just don't go crazy tower diving when blind of enemy positions.
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What I've been doing, and it works for me thus far, is building tanky/support maokai and I only use him in the jungle.
I run standard jungle masteries 0/21/9 with mpen reds, armor yellows, mr/lvl blues, and ap quints, flash and smite.
I start regrowth + hpot, kill wraiths then blue buff, then clear jungle.
Skills: EQEWQR into R>Q>W>E. The 2 levels of E make clearing jungle faster early then maxing Q>W for stronger ganks.
Items: philo, boots, frozen heart, aegis, shurelias, abyssal (wards)
I will usually add in an oracles after i finish my frozen heart.
I usually end up with 200+ armor and 150+ resist which is all I ever need as well as max CD with masteries.
Typical KDA with this build is something like 5-5-15
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I guess I should add that in teamfights you basically become a walking rally flag for your team stand around. With so many support items, his ult, CC, and being naturally tanky you provide so much utility for your team. Also your job is not to dive the enemy carries but instead you excel at protecting your own. Trying to dive the enemy carries puts you to far from your teammates for your support items to be of any use. Instead when that enemy shyvana dives onto your AD carry you can root her on the spot and still be in the middle of your team to apply full support from your items. Maokai is an excelent peeler.
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Not sure if it's been discussed, but what about mobility boots on Maokai? In case their team is low on CC, I generally feel like I don't need Tabi and I think they could benefit him quite a bit, especially if he is ahead already.
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Mobility boots are pretty terrible on maokai. The reason you don't build mobility is that maokai generally builds shurelya's rather early (I go regrowth + pot -> philo+boots -> HoG -> boots2/shurelyas/oracle, depending on the game). The only reason maokai needs the speed is to close enough to get a W off since his ability to stay glued onto someone is amazing after he gets onto them.
It's much better to get tankier earlier in order to make bigger plays (chain vest to tank tower, oracles to get map control etc.)
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mobility boots are a traditionally a ganker item (usually on something like shaco who ganks all day). They are typically used because they dramatically reduce time between lanes, not necessarily to catch somebody (tho it does have that aspect). You're not going to be shurelia's-ing 24-7, so if you really don't feel a need for tabi/mercs, then mobility could be an option.
granted, I don't know much about maokai, but I got the impression he's a gank-oriented jungler, so mobility boots do make some amount of sense.
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On May 23 2012 08:20 barbsq wrote:
mobility boots are a traditionally a ganker item (usually on something like shaco who ganks all day). They are typically used because they dramatically reduce time between lanes, not necessarily to catch somebody (tho it does have that aspect). You're not going to be shurelia's-ing 24-7, so if you really don't feel a need for tabi/mercs, then mobility could be an option.
granted, I don't know much about maokai, but I got the impression he's a gank-oriented jungler, so mobility boots do make some amount of sense.
Maokai is a gank oriented jungler, however, his twisted advance is a 650 range guaranteed snare/gap closer. Even with just boots1 it's really, really easy to get onto someone. Shurelya's enables your teammates to follow up on your initiate. He also clears wolves/wraiths extremely quickly (One E, 1-2 Q's will finish the camps for 80% of most games). Even if you feel that not getting mercs/tabi is possible, once teamfights roll around, you will miss them. Having high resistances combined with maokai's ultimate makes him an insane cockblock in teamfights (Focusing him is a bad idea, too tanky, not focusing means he cc's everything).
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They're not terrible. They add to his already strong ganks pretty well. Their point on Maokai isn't to run from lane to lane quickly so much as lock down the laner before he can get to safety. Him being able to run for a second less before you catch up can easily make the difference. There is a bit of redundancy only if you are rushing Shurelya's and a large portion of the time you don't rush it because you want tanky items sooner. Even when you do, the laning phase is largely over by the time you finish Reverie. Shurelya's rush is something you do when you're doing well or against weak(ish) laners. Don't forget that Mercs provides more than just the tenacity. The MR/Armor components of the boots are pretty good to get early.
Otherwise, you just want to get tanky early. Aegis is an incredibly good first core item for Maokai after your boots and philo. I skip HoG half the time because you don't necessarily want to build Randuin's (esp if you plan to get FH first) and going 2 gp10 just sacrifices being tankier / doing more damage early on.
If you go boots, 2 gp10, Shurelya's then you can gank well enough 2v1, but you're weak as hell in group skirmishes because you have essentially no items providing meaningful defenses. It also makes Oracle's riskier because you can die so easily, but at least you can use Shurelya's to run away in some cases.
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As someone who plays a pretty decent amount of mao, I'm depressed about the lack of discussoin in this thread 
So anyway, recently been seeing a lot of mobility boots on Mao's (and have been trying it out myself to great success). Being able to land that w earlier makes a huge difference. Also, mobility boots + shurelyas means your late game engagements are unavoidable.
However, I find that in the late earlyish / mid game, and even late game I am very MR deprived. I actually stopped going tabis for a bit and going merc treads because I felt like ganking mid (esp when they had an AP dmg based jungler e.g. mumu) could be a liability against bursty mids. Furthermore, in any kind of early team fights (such as over dragon). I feel very vulnerable to the burst AOE from Annie / Gragas / Ahri etc.
Meanwhile, I think mao is particularly nice because he has great mid ganking potential . . . so this has been frustrating.
What do you guys think of these solutions:
1) Run flat MR Blues instead of MR / lvl (late game we can get some MR items after we build our core)
2) Chalice (I would build it after philo then proceed to build Aegis. I sorta like this option because Mao can run out of mana in jungle / in engagements)
3) Get a negatron instead of glacial (I don't like this because FH is so great.... but abyssal is still good item on mao, even after the aura range nerf).
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Btw, I'm assuming Mao core is Merc/Mobility Boots, Philo (=> Shureylas after glacial before FH), HoG and/or Aegis, and FH
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1) I run 20 AP on maokai, 15 from quints and the rest from flat blues. It doesn't give a particularly large amount of MR. Against dangerous mids you'll want to lay down your ulti the moment you W in as opposed to throwing a sapling or hitting Q. Your ultimate gives enough survivability that you shouldn't be able to get bursted. I personally grab a ruby crystal+null magic on maokai for an aegis after core items.
2) Philo is generally enough on maokai I find. As long as you only take wolves/wraiths, I find it hard to run oom. Taking doubles takes more mana and time than it's worth on maokai. Chalice is a good item but not something that maokai needs.
3) I like grabbing aegis for MR much more than getting negatron based items. FoN is good but it doesn't give tankiness + CDR like shurelyas or glacial and cdr helps you do your job better in teamfights, both in terms of sustain through your passive and in the CC you can put out.
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There's little point in running Flat MR Glyphs instead of MR/Lvl. The difference is ~4 MR at level 6, and they're even at level 9. Unless you're going for ludicrously early Dragons, which really shouldn't happen on Maokai unless you're extremely safe anyway, which MR runes you use shouldn't make a significant difference.
Chalice isn't that great if you're already planning on Shurelya's + FH because the only item it builds into is Grail, whose CDR will be redundant.
You should be building Aegis unless someone else on your team is planning to. It's a significantly stronger mid-game item than Frozen Heart as most of the damage your team takes at that point isn't coming from auto-attacks. If the enemy AP is fed or the enemy is using a double AP comp you should have no issue going Aegis -> Negatron -> Glacial.
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What if we went chalice and replaced the FH with an Abyssal or Randuins depending on the matchup? Especially on a composition where top wants to get a FH anyway.
I do have mana problems with Maokai in the late late game during prolonged engagements, so grail might be nice. That said, that awkward period with no CDR before Shurelya's is annoying (albeit, you'll be getting shurelya's a little faster because chalice is so cheap).
We could also replace philo and go HoG but shurelyas is so good on mao so I don't know.
Another question: are people getting HoG? I've been trying it out with some success. Mao feels really low on HP in the midgame and Aegis + HoG fills that gap nicely IMO. I've been getting it when it feels difficult to gank any of the lanes. Mao's ganking power still feels largely undiminished despite the delayed glacial. When you can land a combination of randuins and your Q on the entire team it feels quite strong
edit: grail = / = glacial. woops
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On August 31 2012 05:54 Mauzel wrote:
What if we went chalice and replaced the FH with an Abyssal or Randuins depending on the matchup? Especially on a composition where top wants to get a FH anyway.
I do have mana problems with Maokai in the late late game during prolonged engagements, so grail might be nice. That said, that awkward period with no CDR before Shurelya's is annoying (albeit, you'll be getting shurelya's a little faster because chalice is so cheap).
We could also replace philo and go HoG but shurelyas is so good on mao so I don't know.
Another question: are people getting HoG? I've been trying it out with some success. Mao feels really low on HP in the midgame and Aegis + HoG fills that gap nicely IMO. I've been getting it when it feels difficult to gank any of the lanes. Mao's ganking power still feels largely undiminished despite the delayed grail. When you can land a combination of randuins and your Q on the entire team it feels quite strong
I wouldn't replace FH unless you're absolutely certain top is getting it, it's way too important to ignore. If you don't need Chalice until the late late game don't build it until then and get other, more important items sooner. Also, unless you're fed or your team is hurting for damage sources Spirit Visage is probably a better option than Grail.
I haven't bothered with HoG since before the nerf as a jungler. Getting an early Kindlegem or a faster Aegis is much stronger.
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I really don't understand why you wouldn't want to get FH. The CDR is really important for being relevant in teamfights. As for this point:
3) Get a negatron instead of glacial (I don't like this because FH is so great.... but abyssal is still good item on mao, even after the aura range nerf).
It doesn't make any sense to me because whether or not you get a chain mail or a negatron is entirely dependent on the enemy team. Comparing an armor item with an mr item as if they are interchangeable is just a complete lapse in thought.
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korea, I was referring to situations where I felt like mao needs additional MR. Mao usually has really low MR because we give up our blue MR / lvls for AP so we can 1shot wraiths. For example, there have been several situations where I was wary of ganking mid (such as an Annie loaded with an ulti) because I knew that she could likely burst me down even from close to full health if I wasn't careful. I wouldn't want to get FH if someone top (Malphite, Nunu, maybe even Udyr) would use it.
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Uh, you don't have to take any ap in your runes to do the wraith -> blue start, and why would you ever want to forgo your mr/lvl runes for ap just for the sole purpose of 1shotting wraiths anyway? You already farm pretty fast in the early levels anyway.
And obviously if you have to get mr then you'll get a negatron before any chainvest items. That's just obvious thinking.
edit: since the jungle remake you just take boots3, put two saplings at wraiths then toss your third right before the wraiths spawn so they take full damage from your third sapling. Then you punch the big wraith 2 times and run to your blue, and you'll make it like a second after blue spawned if you did it properly. There is absolutely no reason you should ever take AP runes on Maokai jungle.
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On August 31 2012 07:31 koreasilver wrote:
Uh, you don't have to take any ap in your runes to do the wraith -> blue start, and why would you ever want to forgo your mr/lvl runes for ap just for the sole purpose of 1shotting wraiths anyway? You already farm pretty fast in the early levels anyway.
And obviously if you have to get mr then you'll get a negatron before any chainvest items. That's just obvious thinking.
edit: since the jungle remake you just take boots3, put two saplings at wraiths then toss your third right before the wraiths spawn so they take full damage from your third sapling. Then you punch the big wraith 2 times and run to your blue, and you'll make it like a second after blue spawned if you did it properly. There is absolutely no reason you should ever take AP runes on Maokai jungle.
With 20 AP, you can take wraiths from the mid tower, allowing you to reach blue with a regrowth pendant without making your midlaner wait. It also happens to make your early levels a bit quicker.
Beyond that though, I really don't like ever building offensive items on maokai, even items like RoA or Abyssal. He has good scaling but his primary job is to soak up damage between his passive and his ultimate and be as disruptive as possible, CDR + resists help him do that far more effectively than AP does. His ultimate if used in a good spot mitigates a huge amount of incoming damage and that makes up for not dealing much damage innately. It's much more effective to have mercs+FH+aegis+randuins+shurelyas that gives you 40% CDR and a LOT of tankiness so that you can do your job of peeling/CCing the threats as opposed to mercs+Abyssal+Randuins+shurelyas or some other combination of tanky mage gear.
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Don't even need the randuins to have 40% CDR if you have points in Enlightenment. Not that it's a bad item for Mao by any stretch of the imagination, it's rather awesome for him.
With the abyssal nerf though, Mao's one of few characters that can get his team's magic damage characters to benefit from the Abyssal aura.
I haven't built Spirit Vis on him, but it's a great item for him on paper. His passive healing is already quite strong, and the other stats on it are awesome for him.
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Opening with regrowth just isn't that great on Maokai. It hinders your lv 3-4 ganking ability way too much compared to boots. It simply is not worth it most of the time. I'm really not sure why some of you guys are seriously considering taking ap runes over mr/lvl and ms. You're screwing up both your early game (ganking power) and lategame (mr/lvl >>>>>>>>>>>>> ap) tremendously. All of that just for a very forgettable increase in jungling speed on a champion that already has a very good first clear? Definitely not worth it.
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EPT
