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Mauzel
United States421 Posts
I haven't had problems with Mao's lategame personally. But maybe you're just that much crazier with that extra mr... i dunno. Conceptually I'm trying to make Mao's early/mid game as strong as possible because it's where he really shines. I've never actually tried a boots 3 pots opening so I'll give it a chance. I run 0/15/15 masteries on maokai for the gp5 and gold though. Korea do you run 0/21/9? | ||
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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
Wraiths start is extremely overrated I think because you are forced to do golems if you want that quick lvl 4 which chew on you quite a bit and I don't like doing them at all without smite. Wolves->Blue->wraiths->wolves->red->wraiths is so much better because mao takes literally no damage at camps that he can just aoe down and this way you have smite on time for red if you don't get a super leash on blue.Checking/"warding" red with a sappling before you go back to do wolves is another convenience with mao. With boots you can really utilize that strong gank potential that mao has at lvl 3-4 with double buff.I often find myself in situations where I am forced to burn flash to get that gank off with the regrowth opening because I'm just too slow as everyone is coming to lane with boots. Also boots are vital if you get caught in the jungle or need to counter gank. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
But I disagree a bit with the wraiths start. The main issue with the wraith start is that a lot of people now check your wraiths to pop your saplings to screw with you. Wraiths start is still really good if you can pull it off because you hit lvl3 if you pull off the wraiths->blue->wolf->wraith path and if the enemy mid isn't playing smart you can immediately pull off a really strong gank when the mid laners are still lvl2. It comes out really quickly and is often unexpected. I guess also, as a side note, not taking W at lvl3 hinders Maokai way too much. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6213 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
Maokai's usefulness when he has W is astronomically higher than when he doesn't. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
Boots greatly change whether you're going to get that W off, ESPECIALLY if you are forcing the gank by running past a ward - something Maokai is actually very good at doing early on. It's also why mobility boots are becoming common on him. Fuck the wards im ganking you anyway. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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Haasts
New Zealand4445 Posts
I'm a fan of grabbing Chalice after Philo / prior to Aegis; if I've built FH/Reverie, I can always sell it if the game has dragged on long enough, and if not (my last Maokai game, both our mid Ryze & top Yorick built Frozen Heart), being able to build Randuin's Omen as an armor item and get Athene's Unholy Grail to usefully cap out on CDR is nothing to sneeze at. Thanks for the heads-up on not needing AP post-remake for a wraiths start, koreasilver - I'd figured out I no longer needed AP blues, but hadn't realised I could drop the quints and only need one more auto on the large wraith. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Chalice's really good to help the mana stay high, I noticed that unless I ganked a lot and thus skipped on clears, doing golems would generally cost too much time/mana and I'd be too low on mana to gank a lot because of them. I'm having trouble ganking a lot as Maokai, though, particularly during his strong levels (3-5). Maybe I should start wolves, request a big pull on blue so as to avoid smiting it, then immediatly rush the red buff and gank whatever lane is available, go back to wraiths, do wolves (or golems if smite is up) and gank as soon as there is an opportunity, focusing on only clearing small camps and doing the golems when there isn't a buff/drake attempt in the near future and my smite is up. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6213 Posts
On September 04 2012 21:39 Alaric wrote: 5HIT, do you go sunfire to help your clears once you can't EQ a camp instantly anymore? I tend to prefer FH to give my cc some CDR, but I guess I can see how the HP buffer helps as Mao doesn't have Nunu/Blitz/Ali levels of HP. Chalice's really good to help the mana stay high, I noticed that unless I ganked a lot and thus skipped on clears, doing golems would generally cost too much time/mana and I'd be too low on mana to gank a lot because of them. I'm having trouble ganking a lot as Maokai, though, particularly during his strong levels (3-5). Maybe I should start wolves, request a big pull on blue so as to avoid smiting it, then immediatly rush the red buff and gank whatever lane is available, go back to wraiths, do wolves (or golems if smite is up) and gank as soon as there is an opportunity, focusing on only clearing small camps and doing the golems when there isn't a buff/drake attempt in the near future and my smite is up. Open boots+3 if you're having trouble ganking. Regrowth makes initiating the gank much more difficult. The hardest part of ganking on maokai is getting onto someone. Going from places like tribush on top/bot, around the wraith or blue side on mid helps a lot, especially if your midlaner is smart and cuts off other avenues of escape. Once you W on, immediately walk away from where you want them and Q before tossing a sapling. As you get more points in your W, you'll be able to throw a sapling before you Q them but at first, you don't root them long enough to do that so just get your CC off and hope for damage from your laner. The only time before you have a few points in W that you want to do anything before you Q is when they don't have flash, are a bursty mid-laner (get your ulti down ASAP). Maokai's Q does slow so early on he has about 3 seconds of CC so red isn't strictly necessary to gank effectively, it just adds a hefty bit of damage to maokai's autoattacks. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Also I have trouble ganking in general when people aren't past the river/their half of the lane. I should do more inlane ganks (especially top) or simply dive, I guess. Hard at level 3 though. | ||
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Leeto
United States1320 Posts
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Lmui
Canada6213 Posts
On September 05 2012 11:10 Leeto wrote: Yay for the price reduction. Gonna buy him! Is the build in the OP still viable? I don't think triple dring is the way to go anymore.. Generally Boots+3 or regrowth+1 and then get a philo+boots. From there, HoG/Aegis/shurelyas or work towards boots2/5+oracles. You're aiming for FH+randuins+shurelyas+boots+aegis+something lategame, that something can be MR such as FoN, GA for even more armor, warmogs if your passive is stacking itself up nicely in teamfights. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On September 05 2012 11:10 Leeto wrote: Yay for the price reduction. Gonna buy him! Is the build in the OP still viable? I don't think triple dring is the way to go anymore.. The OP was written very shortly after he came out. His place has since changed - he's a support/utility/gank jungler. I suppose Dorans -> Tank items instead of Philo/gp10s -> tank items would work if you don't like GP10s, though. However, Shurelia's is great to have on him (gp10 buildup, CDR, regen, active are all great on Maokai.) Quick-n-dirty Current Maokai Guide Masteries: 0/21/9 or 9/14/7 (MP5, Initiator, CDR Runes: AS / Armor / MR / MS Optional specialty runes: AS / Armor / Mix of flat AP and MR / AP (lets you do cheeky things level 1 like oneshot wraiths. Many have made a case that it's not worth it.) + Show Spoiler [Rune choice explanation] + AS is preferred over MPen usually because jungle monsters don't have MR, and your base damage is on the upper end. Boots 3pot start (Regrowth + 1pot start is optional, but you're giving up a lot of early gank power. You're not amumu or something where your gank power increases substantially at 6 - your gank power is terrifying right when you put that point into W, and it's a shame if you can't get in range to use it. Be aware that your base movespeed isn't good, which is why most prefer MS quints and why Initiator is prioritized over Enlightenment (get both if you're going 21 defense, though. If you have 9 in offense, you're getting a little CDR there instead.) Another reason brought up for AS runes is that in teamfights, your passive is coming up VERY quickly, and the faster auto helps heal yourself significantly. Skills: EQW Q>W>E (Some prefer a second point of E early for the slightly more efficient clearing power.) Generalized core items on maokai (pick and choose defensive items according to the game, of course Early: Boots Philo Treads, Tabi or Mobility Boots Optional Oracles Wards Mid: choose which items are applicable. Aegis is a good early build vs. Double AP teams. Glacial before Aegis works well vs. more AD-oriented teams. Shurelia's usually follows whichever of these you buy first. Spirit Visage is a niche item vs. very heavy AP teams, it synergizes well with your passive and your kit. Aegis Glacial Shroud Spirit Visage Shurelia's Reverie More Wards! Late: Frozen Heart Randuin's Omen (Warden's mail first > HOG first, imo.) Abyssal Scepter (if noone on team has it and you really want an AP item, or if both teams have significant magic damage, and you didn't already stack the shit out of MR. Remember that this magic damage can come from non-AP characters such as Corki or Jax.) Never Stop Warding! + Show Spoiler [Random Tips] + - Never [almost] clear golems. All of your clearing power comes from AOE abilities. Even with smite, Golems are surprisingly slow. Your bot or top lane should take these if it's ever helpful for them to do so. - You can jump to creep camps over the wall using sapling [E] for vision followed by Twisted advance [W] to gapclose. If you're ganking a lane and they are escaping down the lane brush, toss your sapling into the brush to give you vision to Twisted Advance [W] Be aware that this has a substantial mana cost since otherwise you don't use Twisted Advance (75 mana) on jungle camps. Rarely, this technique can also be used to escape from enemies. It doesn't have enough range to jump over Dragon or Baron pit, though. - Especially at higher ranks Vengeful Maelstrom has a short enough cooldown that it can be used as an additional ability for things like clearing power. The initial mana cost is about the same as your other abilities, but it can be costly to maintain for more than a few seconds for these secondary purposes. | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
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Lmui
Canada6213 Posts
On September 05 2012 12:21 Craton wrote: He's good, but starts to fall off a bit the higher Elo you get. You get faceroll easy ganks for awhile, then people learn how to flash into the tower to drag you. If they flash into tower you have to flash out, not a huge deal unless they were at tower to begin with. It hurts them more than it hurts you though since next time round, they won't have it up to kill you with. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
In terms of clearing jungle, except with buff camps, AS vs MPen doesn't matter because QQE kills everything anyways. Edit: Also, I've been running GP10 quints because it lets me sit in top lane bushes for years and not feel too bad. It also allows me to buy mobo boots first back korean style and still have income. I haven't noticed the MS quint difference on lvl 3/4 ganks because no one has wards so you don't need to do as much running. I also experimented with 0/17/13 masteries letting me take 4 in the GP10 tree but after some games actually going longer than 25 mins, the 8% CDR and 10% HP bonuses are too good to give up. | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On September 05 2012 13:40 xes wrote: The biggest reason you want AS instead of MPen is because during full 5v5 fights, your passive comes up stupid fast and you want the AS to help you have infinite health. Maokai's base AS increases are pretty awful (but better than Nautilus lololol) so even at lvl 18 its noticeable. In terms of clearing jungle, except with buff camps, AS vs MPen doesn't matter because QQE kills everything anyways. Edit: Also, I've been running GP10 quints because it lets me sit in top lane bushes for years and not feel too bad. It also allows me to buy mobo boots first back korean style and still have income. I haven't noticed the MS quint difference on lvl 3/4 ganks because no one has wards so you don't need to do as much running. I also experimented with 0/17/13 masteries letting me take 4 in the GP10 tree but after some games actually going longer than 25 mins, the 8% CDR and 10% HP bonuses are too good to give up. Oh, I hadn't thought of the activation of the passive repeatedly in teamfights. Good point. I edited it into my miniguide. | ||
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