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On November 19 2015 23:29 WinterStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 23:23 RoomOfMush wrote:
If it is the speed at which it comes out that you are concerned with, an upgrade would solve it. Do you think that a Pick-Up-Range upgrade on the Robotics Support Bay could be a potential solution? I think a much more subtle change like a bnet user suggest of required pickup range to only be active when in phase mode could be more than enough to shift the dynamic.
That would be a more sublte change, but it would also introduce a new, arbitrary rule. Suddenly its ability to pick up units would change its behavior depending on phase mode. Sure, you can do it and yes its not that hard to understand, but its not intuitive. Its not something that you can observe by just playing. Its something you have to read in the tooltips or else you wouldnt understand it.
An upgrade on the other hand is a tried and true mechanic that is used throughout the game. It keeps the game mechanics consistent and reduces the need for learning new rules.
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No, no, no, no and no.
I think the standard "game's only been out for a week, give it time" response applies here.
PvT has shifted immensely because of the Adept and the Colossus change. Used to be that our best units were late game and so we'd turtle until we could mass them. Now our best unit is in the early game. So builds revolve around doing as much economic damage to the Terran as possible and hoping that the nerfed Colossus can kill them with enough of a lead.
Beginning of HotS was just non stop Widow Mine cheese. And we eventually learned to deal with it (but that didn't make it obsolete... it just didn't win ALL the time).
So basically, Terran has to learn to play the way Protoss did for a while. Defend early game aggression, get your bases set up, and then finally get ready to put a hurt on the Protoss with your shiny Liberators.
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On November 19 2015 23:43 DinoMight wrote:
No, no, no, no and no.
I think the standard "game's only been out for a week, give it time" response applies here.
PvT has shifted immensely because of the Adept and the Colossus change. Used to be that our best units were late game and so we'd turtle until we could mass them. Now our best unit is in the early game. So builds revolve around doing as much economic damage to the Terran as possible and hoping that the nerfed Colossus can kill them with enough of a lead.
Beginning of HotS was just non stop Widow Mine cheese. And we eventually learned to deal with it (but that didn't make it obsolete... it just didn't win ALL the time).
So basically, Terran has to learn to play the way Protoss did for a while. Defend early game aggression, get your bases set up, and then finally get ready to put a hurt on the Protoss with your shiny Liberators.
Fair enough, but you're directly asking for a "Liberators Create A Mediocre Dynamic" post  . In seriousness I do agree, but it is my interest to create discussion around the balance of the game on a regular basis from a semi pro/below perspective. I appreciate the input.
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On November 19 2015 23:48 WinterStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 23:43 DinoMight wrote:
No, no, no, no and no.
I think the standard "game's only been out for a week, give it time" response applies here.
PvT has shifted immensely because of the Adept and the Colossus change. Used to be that our best units were late game and so we'd turtle until we could mass them. Now our best unit is in the early game. So builds revolve around doing as much economic damage to the Terran as possible and hoping that the nerfed Colossus can kill them with enough of a lead.
Beginning of HotS was just non stop Widow Mine cheese. And we eventually learned to deal with it (but that didn't make it obsolete... it just didn't win ALL the time).
So basically, Terran has to learn to play the way Protoss did for a while. Defend early game aggression, get your bases set up, and then finally get ready to put a hurt on the Protoss with your shiny Liberators. Fair enough, but you're directly asking for a "Liberators Create A Mediocre Dynamic" post .
Lol. Now THAT's something I can get behind 
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On November 19 2015 23:53 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 23:48 WinterStarcraft wrote:On November 19 2015 23:43 DinoMight wrote:
No, no, no, no and no.
I think the standard "game's only been out for a week, give it time" response applies here.
PvT has shifted immensely because of the Adept and the Colossus change. Used to be that our best units were late game and so we'd turtle until we could mass them. Now our best unit is in the early game. So builds revolve around doing as much economic damage to the Terran as possible and hoping that the nerfed Colossus can kill them with enough of a lead.
Beginning of HotS was just non stop Widow Mine cheese. And we eventually learned to deal with it (but that didn't make it obsolete... it just didn't win ALL the time).
So basically, Terran has to learn to play the way Protoss did for a while. Defend early game aggression, get your bases set up, and then finally get ready to put a hurt on the Protoss with your shiny Liberators. Fair enough, but you're directly asking for a "Liberators Create A Mediocre Dynamic" post . Lol. Now THAT's something I can get behind
I don't have the Terran experience specifically or overall experience from the other races to back it up in the same way I have made this post, but it is on the short list of things to discuss in the future. It is an insanely interesting unit and somewhat unlike the warp prism I don't think it has been explored on both sides to nearly the extent.
I feel like I should end this with Liberator are imba, though I can't commit to it yet 
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Stop. You actually said warp prism was imbalanced against Protoss. Warp prism is one of the few things in this game that indisputably creates action, strategy, and places for more skilled players to show off. Even your bots could tell you that.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Useless bot comments after this point will be considered ad hominem and be dealt with properly. It's irrelevant to this discussion. Please stay on topic.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On November 19 2015 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:Dude, you include (my BLALBALALB in BLALAL is supergood)(my X in Y is succesful)(I tell race)(I'm random)(I play all races)(I know because I know all races). It comes across as arrogant, sorry to say. That, and your edit in contradicting itself: Show nested quote +EDIT: To start I don't have enough games (a few dozen is a fraction of what would be needed, and all of them would need to be higher level than my own), so I would like to create a discussion on the topic and if changes are ideal on either side. Overall I still feel the game is relatively balanced but that is a different discussion. Additionally, we are 1 week into the game, these are defensive timings and they require time to be understood and defended well. Add a HORRIFIC map pool to that, and well, aerial harassment is strong. Who would have thought. *Edit* Just saw your name. That makes my first couple of comments even more applicable.
his post came across just fine
yours came across atrociously.
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On November 19 2015 22:08 Weird wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm I can see why you've come to TL and Battlenet, probably pretty hard to have a discussion with those viewbots huh?
How much money do you make a month streaming starcraft?
#Salt
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There's no replays or anything. I've seen Maximusblack rush warp prism and lose to terran.
I don't have much input really. oh well.
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On November 19 2015 23:02 deacon.frost wrote:Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things  Anyway, it's also fun when Winter states that nerfing WP is OK, because Protoss is good with nerfed WP. I, personally, will trust more these 3 named when they say Protoss is fucked than believing to somehow like Winter. (it's not about viewbotting and the fact he lied before but the fact that these 3 were pro players) (though they were mostly debating PvZ, Geoff said that PvT is kinda OKish even though P is on the weak side)
Thats a very VERY wrong way of looking at things, protoss will be balanced, all races will be, at some point, so saying "we need this because protoss UP" is wrong, just because protoss is weak.
A mechanic should be made around how fun and interesting it is, and right now its very fun for protoss players, but very unfun for non protoss players so around 50-50, I don't think warp prism needs to be nerfed because IMBA, but certain stuff needs to be implemented to allow for counter play.
Things will be play out of course I don't expect Blizzard to patch anything for a few weeks at least, but that doesn't mean we can't have a discussion about how to make a better player experience.
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Czech Republic12132 Posts
On November 20 2015 02:01 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 23:02 deacon.frost wrote:Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things Anyway, it's also fun when Winter states that nerfing WP is OK, because Protoss is good with nerfed WP. I, personally, will trust more these 3 named when they say Protoss is fucked than believing to somehow like Winter. (it's not about viewbotting and the fact he lied before but the fact that these 3 were pro players) (though they were mostly debating PvZ, Geoff said that PvT is kinda OKish even though P is on the weak side) Thats a very VERY wrong way of looking at things, protoss will be balanced, all races will be, at some point, so saying "we need this because protoss UP" is wrong, just because protoss is weak. A mechanic should be made around how fun and interesting it is, and right now its very fun for protoss players, but very unfun for non protoss players so around 50-50, I don't think warp prism needs to be nerfed because IMBA, but certain stuff needs to be implemented to allow for counter play. Things will be play out of course I don't expect Blizzard to patch anything for a few weeks at least, but that doesn't mean we can't have a discussion about how to make a better player experience.
This thread started as a balance one. I agree that what is discussed is mostly design and not balance. But because it is a balance thread I brought balance view on PvZ from TLG.
And I agree with you, from design view we should balance races first about fun things and then start the balancing around game results and OPness.
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What exactly are we talking about? What does warp prism do that creates bad dynamics? "It's too strong" is not an answer, since we've decided to field the discussion in the realm of "it's balanced nonetheless, probably". So WHAT is it? That'd be a good thing to add to the OP. Maybe example games?
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On November 20 2015 02:18 deacon.frost wrote:And I agree with you, from design view we should balance races first about fun things and then start the balancing around game results and OPness.
Agree too,
basically design things for the possibilities it brings to the whole, then tweak to balance ;
not design to balance then tweak for more possibilities, that's nuts (?).
Because design creates the rules for possibilities so you want to balance after that to change the weight of possibilities and give all races good chances to win in the playstyles they propose.
If you design to balance, you only apply patches to issues in the balance of your previous design, likely destroying possibilities in the process. Then if you tweak values (balance) to increase possibilities... that gives you a very forced metagame in which the players play for small optimizations?
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Terran was pigeonholed into two builds for a large part of the hots era (3rax and 1-1-1 wm drop) just because the oracle exist, so I don't see a problem here if we shouldn't now have even less build diversity (1-1-1).
But generally speaking, I think it is way too early to tell how the metagame will shape. So many (former) pros and other players are experimenting right now and the timings are unknown, it's really hard to tell how things will work out.
Anyone remember how long Blizzard has let us defend against 2base blink all in early 2014 before they changed the map pool, because they wanted the players to figure out the best response.
On November 19 2015 23:02 deacon.frost wrote:
Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things
TBH, I listen more to a random player instead to former pros that are too bad to affect the meta game, but that is just me. And everyone playing a single race is biased, even korean top pros.
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On November 20 2015 00:35 dr3am_b3ing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 22:08 Weird wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm I can see why you've come to TL and Battlenet, probably pretty hard to have a discussion with those viewbots huh? How much money do you make a month streaming starcraft? #Salt
I'm sorry, I have a real job that doesn't involve buying fake people to love me so real people (tools) will follow me and give me money for being a d-bag (and defend me on forums LOL).
I bet that money feels good though, all of that hard work.
#Winter'sToolArmyBEEPBOOP
User was temp banned for this post.
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Czech Republic12132 Posts
On November 20 2015 03:25 apocom wrote:Terran was pigeonholed into two builds for a large part of the hots era (3rax and 1-1-1 wm drop) just because the oracle exist, so I don't see a problem here if we shouldn't now have even less build diversity (1-1-1). But generally speaking, I think it is way too early to tell how the metagame will shape. So many (former) pros and other players are experimenting right now and the timings are unknown, it's really hard to tell how things will work out. Anyone remember how long Blizzard has let us defend against 2base blink all in early 2014 before they changed the map pool, because they wanted the players to figure out the best response. Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 23:02 deacon.frost wrote:
Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things TBH, I listen more to a random player instead to former pros that are too bad to affect the meta game, but that is just me. And everyone playing a single race is biased, even korean top pros.
That is your choice, but I was reacting to the part about "how about we nerf WP and do not give anything in return, Protoss players will adapt!" which is BS to me. Since it was right above my post i was not using "Quote" button. But maybe I am just biased against Winter because I believed him before and was burned  Not sure.
Anyway, we do not have enough time. Seriously, in a month or so Proleague starts and in 2 months WCS/GSL/SSL starts! It is time to stop jerking around and really start doing things. Too many people is relying on SC2 as the source of their income, numbers in Korea were growing, we cannot lose this because we will be changing things during leagues...
I think that the argument "we have just a week behind us, lets wait" is bad. It is true but we do not have enough time, so Blizzard should start doing things.
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LOL now i finally understand how ppl feel when avilo post stuff on here cant believe this guy had the balls to post anything on this website.
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it is intended that warp prism offers a better "blink" stalker than the actual blink stalker?
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On November 20 2015 03:39 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 03:25 apocom wrote:Terran was pigeonholed into two builds for a large part of the hots era (3rax and 1-1-1 wm drop) just because the oracle exist, so I don't see a problem here if we shouldn't now have even less build diversity (1-1-1). But generally speaking, I think it is way too early to tell how the metagame will shape. So many (former) pros and other players are experimenting right now and the timings are unknown, it's really hard to tell how things will work out. Anyone remember how long Blizzard has let us defend against 2base blink all in early 2014 before they changed the map pool, because they wanted the players to figure out the best response. On November 19 2015 23:02 deacon.frost wrote:
Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things TBH, I listen more to a random player instead to former pros that are too bad to affect the meta game, but that is just me. And everyone playing a single race is biased, even korean top pros. That is your choice, but I was reacting to the part about "how about we nerf WP and do not give anything in return, Protoss players will adapt!" which is BS to me. Since it was right above my post i was not using "Quote" button. But maybe I am just biased against Winter because I believed him before and was burned Not sure. Anyway, we do not have enough time. Seriously, in a month or so Proleague starts and in 2 months WCS/GSL/SSL starts! It is time to stop jerking around and really start doing things. Too many people is relying on SC2 as the source of their income, numbers in Korea were growing, we cannot lose this because we will be changing things during leagues... I think that the argument "we have just a week behind us, lets wait" is bad. It is true but we do not have enough time, so Blizzard should start doing things.
Why should Blizzard should start doing things now? Nobody expect that the game is perfectly balanced right now, but we have still no metagame. Many players still play HotS instead of LotV.
When we had 3 terrans out of 32 players in Code S, with 16 protoss, Incontrol told us how good the game was balanced. Maybe I'm still a bit salty about this, but for me he is not the guy to listen.
Personally I don't expect that Blizzard will change much in the next half year, except something is obviously OP.
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