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On November 20 2015 23:12 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 22:34 JackONeill wrote:
Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing 2sec prism warp and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon. This post confirms my suspicion that a lot of people in these foruns engage in discussions such as this one without even playing the game.
On November 20 2015 23:03 KatatoniK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 22:34 JackONeill wrote:
Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing 2sec prism warp and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon. Warp Prism warp-in got changed in the last patch of the beta, you're just bitching senselessly right now. But as it stands, nerfing pylon overcharge RIGHT NOW will just make Protoss completely unplayable. Protoss macro mechanic got nerfed compared to Z and T mechanics. Collossus nerf killed off our most useful unit at dealing damage to T and Z armies and P didn't get anything to compensate for this (Disruptors are utter trash outside of PvP. 40 second cooldown on a shot that can be dodged easily with decent micro) Economy changes benefited T and Z a lot more. T have the cheapest base units and can get their infrastructure and a decent sized army up much quicker than P, making it a hell of a lot easier to steamroll a Protoss trying to get to the right tech to deal with a large sized Terran army. (Stimmed marines and marauders can easily kill Adepts in the current balance.) The need to expand more and more often is actually really bad for Protoss, unlike T and Z, P cannot split their army to defend multiple places, Protoss units are just too fragile for that. Oh and lets not forget, you nerf warp-prisms too much and leave P to have to use pylons to reinforce? Oh Protoss then have to wait 16 seconds for units to warp in because of the pylon changes making it completely pointless to even invest in a pylon in the first place to reinforce. Protoss is in a bad spot right now, and while I agree the pylon overcharge is really stupid (especially in PvP) you can't just outright remove it right now without addressing some really serious issues that exist for Protoss right now.
My bad I meant the pickup range, not the warpin time*
And I'm not saying just removing the damn overcharge is needed, I'm just stating it's a bullshit ability that's simply a bandaid for bad design.
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On November 20 2015 23:43 KatatoniK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 23:12 apocom wrote:On November 20 2015 23:03 KatatoniK wrote:On November 20 2015 22:34 JackONeill wrote:
Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing 2sec prism warp and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon. Warp Prism warp-in got changed in the last patch of the beta, you're just bitching senselessly right now. But as it stands, nerfing pylon overcharge RIGHT NOW will just make Protoss completely unplayable. Protoss macro mechanic got nerfed compared to Z and T mechanics. Collossus nerf killed off our most useful unit at dealing damage to T and Z armies and P didn't get anything to compensate for this (Disruptors are utter trash outside of PvP. 40 second cooldown on a shot that can be dodged easily with decent micro) Economy changes benefited T and Z a lot more. T have the cheapest base units and can get their infrastructure and a decent sized army up much quicker than P, making it a hell of a lot easier to steamroll a Protoss trying to get to the right tech to deal with a large sized Terran army. (Stimmed marines and marauders can easily kill Adepts in the current balance.) The need to expand more and more often is actually really bad for Protoss, unlike T and Z, P cannot split their army to defend multiple places, Protoss units are just too fragile for that. Oh and lets not forget, you nerf warp-prisms too much and leave P to have to use pylons to reinforce? Oh Protoss then have to wait 16 seconds for units to warp in because of the pylon changes making it completely pointless to even invest in a pylon in the first place to reinforce. Protoss is in a bad spot right now, and while I agree the pylon overcharge is really stupid (especially in PvP) you can't just outright remove it right now without addressing some really serious issues that exist for Protoss right now. I disagree with a few points. - T macro mechanic got nerfed, mule was around 20% stronger. - with the ecenomy changes we have to see, Protoss got with Adept a good warpgate unit. - protoss is not in a bad spot right now, the game isn't even released for 2 weeks (I know, the beta was longer, but with huge changes) But I agree with the point that they shouldn't nerf the warpprism. ATM it seems it's the tool for P to move out in the early game and very vital for P all game long. Again a lot of things are heavily unexplored, like the Protoss AoE composition. I see a lot of high level Protoss having really different opinios about the colossus right now. T can still MULE hammer though, Chronoboost got an efficiency nerf (I can't remember the exact percentage off the top of my head though) and it can't be stacked, it's now slightly slower for Protoss to tech up in the long run. I disagree with your notion of the Adept being a good warpgate unit. It's good in the early game, and the longer the game progresses the worse it gets. It's not good against Roaches/Ravagers and once a Terran has stim then adepts are just shredded quite quickly. It's in a weird spot currently I think. Protoss AoE is in a weird spot too, the collossus nerf really had to make us rethink what we need to do, which could be why some of us see Protoss being in a bad spot. AoE is such an important thing in a Protoss army, especially in the lategame. Disruptors are hit and miss, quite literally. Collossus (from my personal experience) are fine up until a large ball of units attacks, at which point the damage nerf really shows. Storm is still a thing, and I tend to lean towards that as an opener in PvT currently just because of how the other AoE options are performing right now. Protoss is also currently the least represented race in GM and Masters right now (globally at least.) And if we take recent tournaments into account (so Olimoleague, ShoutCraft and the HSC XII qualifiers that are happening currently,) Protoss are dropping out pretty quickly and early on in the tournament. It could be because Protoss haven't figured out what to do in the match-ups yet but it could be because of balance issues. It'll probably remain unclear until the WCS seasons start up again and we see how the numbers look in GSL/SSL and how the Koreans are playing but I bet currently, on ladder there's a lot of all-ins coming from Protoss, probably with adepts and warp prisms.
Terran can still mule hammer, but it's weaker, so it's a nerf.
Hm, maybe my opinion about the Adept is simply because I have a lot of respect for that unit, might be wrong here.
And of course there will be balance issues, that's obvious, and maybe Protoss is in need of a buff, but I think really we can't tell that before GSL/SSL starts (like you said).
My feeling is that Protoss has to adapt more than the other races, because of different reasons.
Destructible forcefields seems to hurt in PvZ, the Colossus nerf hurt in PvT and even pro Protoss players sometimes missmicro the disruptor. The chronoboost hurt the very strong timings Protoss had and don't forget the warpin nerf.
Another point is that many players state that the current mappool is really bad for protoss.
I know so many Protoss that struggled in PvT after the widow mine buff, because they relied on Chargelot/Archon.
It's a really different game now, and we will have to see how things play out. Blizzard will not jump the gun on that, so I think such discussions are somewhat pointless atm. We had seen in the past races really struggling (like I said 3 Terrans out of 32 players in Code S) without instead reaction from Blizzard.
That make suck in that moment, but in the long run, it is better for the game that they don't change stuff because people think after a few weeks that something is op.
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I think simply outright nerfing the warp prims play but also improving gateway play is the way to go.
If we buff the adept (I'd say a dps buff should be the way to go to help deal with marines/lings) allows protoss to expand and defend easily. It also allows for better use of gateway units in mid-late game. Also maybe a shield buff (or nerf revert) if dps proves to be the wrong way.
But it also buffs all-ins cheeses, thats why warp prisms would be nerfed. No need to go overboard warp prism play sucks when you are not the protoss but I get why protoss players like it.
What this nerf is I'm not sure tho, I'd like the warp prism to only be able to warp an maximum of X number with a cooldown the same as the WGs then allow prisms to warp unlimited amount of units when you get some tech (Fleet beacon or TC no upgrade just the building). But thats just me.
This way simply WG play is more viable (with stronger early game adepts) WP all-ins are weaker, but harass is the same (if you are capable of warping say 4 or 6 adepts you can definitively do some damage) and it also helps protoss mid game without having to depend so much in WP.
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This thread went the wrong way real quick. Winter is the only streamer I watch, and the only streamer I've ever subscribed too because he is entertaining and fun to watch. If you don't like him for whatever reason, that is fine, but why come chasing him in here to discuss him?
Anyway, if you guys watched his stream you'll see how he abuses the Warp Prism. Because the Warp Prism can be so far behind the Adepts to pick them up, it is basically allowing Blink micro for Adepts. That makes is really easy to keep Adepts alive and seems especially powerful versus Terran.
So if the Blink all-in was OP versus Terran, this is basically same thing. In time, this is definitely going to be nerfed. Unless the Terran gets a lucky Widow Mine shot off on Warp Prism or something, they can't stop it. Adepts chew up Marines and SCVs, and Marauders aren't great against them either. And since the Warp Prism can pick them up from so far away you can't isolate the Adepts and focus them down one by one. So it is literally the Blink all-in all over again.
I for one, as a Protoss player, are looking to abuse this build to death in revenge for the years I had to face the 1-1-1 over and over.
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Try to abuse it and tell me how it goes.
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This isn't about theory or trying. It is about practice. It has been done.
This is one of those threads that the OP gets to come back later and say "I told ya so" after the nerf.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
Ladder is different from tournament settings, that's the first problem I have.
The second one - Winter says "nerf WP, don't buff anything else, Protoss is fine" when we see that Z/T overtakes most of the latest tournaments. Protoss is considered the weakest but Winter wants them nerfed. Logic is strong with this one.
Obviously Korean Protoss players are worse than Winter since they cannot abuse it so well  Unless Winter is GM on Korean ladder and can provide replays against someone meaningful I still think it's not that big deal.
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Why does it matter that ladder is different that tournaments? I play ladder, and I don't want unbalanced strategies on ladder.
The second part is independent of the first. While I disagree with Winter and think Protoss is too weak, the Warp Prism can still be overpowered in the current state. It is very ironic that you made a comment regarding logic, yet failed to see they were two independent thoughts.
On November 21 2015 03:17 deacon.frost wrote:Obviously Korean Protoss players are worse than Winter since they cannot abuse it so well Unless Winter is GM on Korean ladder and can provide replays against someone meaningful I still think it's not that big deal.
I don't even know where to begin with this. But I remember clearly that Destiny was using Infestors abusively long before Korean Zergs were, and had a bunch of showmatches where he beat Korean pros because they didn't know the power of the Infestor.
And do you remember when everyone thought Roaches were terrible in TvZ? Then this guy Stephano showed up... and beat everyone, Koreans included, and re-invented TvZ.
I'm not saying that Winter will re-invent TvP, but I am saying that just because Koreans don't use a build, doesn't mean it is bad and can't be abused. But let's talk about the build itself, how would you counter it?
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You bring up some good points as I feel that i can win about 90% of my pvts with a WP adept cheese all in off 1 base. I never need to scout the terran and can win with rather lazy micro. that all needs to go. It is similar to the widow mine argument that P was essentially forced to prepare for WM play throughout HOTS or it would be an autoloss. Unfortunately if blizz wants protoss to evolve out of a warp prism crutch we would need something in return. Right now I feel that making a warp prism is a necessity since proxy warpins are rather ineffective via pylon. I fear that the warp prism is becoming another bandaid unit which is the last thing we need.
I am just a noob so this idea may be terrible, but what if warp ins were removed from the ccore and GW units were buffed, then you could research warpins from the robo bay that would only apply to the power field of a prism? you could choose to make warp gates but it would have to be the proper amount of WGs to account for harass, until the late game where prism would serve as your mobile proxy, and there would not be any reason to have full warpgates everywhere. there would definitely need to be a fix so that in the lategame you cant just warp in a ton of super powerful t1-t.15 units. maybe nerf the aoe high tier units so that protoss has a bit more of that BW flavor. This would also punish super fast harass cheese as making a prism effective for all inning would require a high investment in tech an research. idk im just a scrub .__.
EDIT: i kind of realize that this proposition only furthers the necessity of the WP crutch, but essentially what im arguing for is that you could go for a straight up GW/twilight style with upgrades in lieu of getting the warp prism if that is your style, or SG, or whatever. it's too early to argue changes anyways, but stronger gw units would lead to removal of other terrible bandaids that we currently deal with (looking at you FF, MSC)
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On November 21 2015 03:17 deacon.frost wrote:Ladder is different from tournament settings, that's the first problem I have. The second one - Winter says "nerf WP, don't buff anything else, Protoss is fine" when we see that Z/T overtakes most of the latest tournaments. Protoss is considered the weakest but Winter wants them nerfed. Logic is strong with this one. Obviously Korean Protoss players are worse than Winter since they cannot abuse it so well Unless Winter is GM on Korean ladder and can provide replays against someone meaningful I still think it's not that big deal.
Most people play Ladder, not tournament. Since they're different, we should ignore tournaments. Am I correct here? Or are you saying should we cater to the 200-odd people that are worried about tournament play instead of the millions buying LotV we want playing ladder?
Okay, so maybe Protoss needs a buff elsewhere. Winter can be wrong. This is a discussion. Ideas are NEVER all or nothing. IF we saw a nerf to WP play, what would you think could be done, and where do you think they need a buff to make up for it? Would that be a better solution than leaving WP play as-is?
Again, you come back to saying some people are less important than others when concerning game play balance. Shouldn't balance be factored in where most play is taking place? And he specifically said it's not imbalanced, it's just limiting options. Options are good. I want to see more play styles and more people playing. End of story.
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Northern Ireland23702 Posts
I'm not sure what you could give Protoss in place of a nerfed Warp Prism, it really feels like a crucial cog of their arsenal and needs to be that strong, notably in conjunction with adepts in trying to slow down Zergs' economies
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On November 22 2015 01:46 mentalmath wrote:I am just a noob so this idea may be terrible, but what if warp ins were removed from the ccore and GW units were buffed, then you could research warpins from the robo bay that would only apply to the power field of a prism? you could choose to make warp gates but it would have to be the proper amount of WGs to account for harass, until the late game where prism would serve as your mobile proxy, and there would not be any reason to have full warpgates everywhere. there would definitely need to be a fix so that in the lategame you cant just warp in a ton of super powerful t1-t.15 units. maybe nerf the aoe high tier units so that protoss has a bit more of that BW flavor. This would also punish super fast harass cheese as making a prism effective for all inning would require a high investment in tech an research. idk im just a scrub .__.
EDIT: i kind of realize that this proposition only furthers the necessity of the WP crutch, but essentially what im arguing for is that you could go for a straight up GW/twilight style with upgrades in lieu of getting the warp prism if that is your style, or SG, or whatever. it's too early to argue changes anyways, but stronger gw units would lead to removal of other terrible bandaids that we currently deal with (looking at you FF, MSC)
I don't know but I really like your idea, would like to see it tested in game^^
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Balancing is tricky because of the warp in mechanics.
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On November 22 2015 05:44 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'm not sure what you could give Protoss in place of a nerfed Warp Prism, it really feels like a crucial cog of their arsenal and needs to be that strong, notably in conjunction with adepts in trying to slow down Zergs' economies
But thats a problem, the fact that they depend so much in WP, its just like the MsC, having all the power of the race concentrated in 1 unit is bad design, when you can spread and control the power game play becomes fun and dynamic, but when all of it depends on wheter or not your 1 unit does it jobs and you win or it doesn't and you lose, its just bad.
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On November 22 2015 05:44 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'm not sure what you could give Protoss in place of a nerfed Warp Prism, it really feels like a crucial cog of their arsenal and needs to be that strong, notably in conjunction with adepts in trying to slow down Zergs' economies
What I'd really like to see is way to get the Stargate involved more. The Oracle is a pretty all or nothing form of harassment, like the Dark Templars to an extent. Or make the Pheonix better at a harassment role.
I remember someone did the math and a Protoss player had to kill an absurd number of drones (like 40+) just to break even with Phoenix harass against a macro Zerg, because the macro Zerg knew that the Protoss spent so much on the Phoenixes and therefore nothing else major was coming so he could just Drone, Drone, Drone and easily replace lost Drones.
On November 22 2015 12:08 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2015 05:44 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'm not sure what you could give Protoss in place of a nerfed Warp Prism, it really feels like a crucial cog of their arsenal and needs to be that strong, notably in conjunction with adepts in trying to slow down Zergs' economies But thats a problem, the fact that they depend so much in WP, its just like the MsC, having all the power of the race concentrated in 1 unit is bad design, when you can spread and control the power game play becomes fun and dynamic, but when all of it depends on wheter or not your 1 unit does it jobs and you win or it doesn't and you lose, its just bad.
Blizzard has always done a relatively poor job with Protoss in this regard. From the Colossus early on (anyone else remember when a 1 base Colossus all-in was viable in all matchups?) to the Sentry ect ect... as you mentioned the MSC is currently in there and the Disruptor I think is going to end up there in PvP which is going to get really old soon.
Be nice if multiple tech trees were viable and Protoss had more options.
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EPT
