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Posted on Bnet as well: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/19891109610
EDIT: First, would like to re title as The EARLY Warp Prism Creates A Mediocre Dynamic In Non Mirrors (this is a more accurate title  ) To start I don't have enough games (a few dozen is a fraction of what would be needed, and all of them would need to be higher level than my own), so I would like to create a discussion on the topic and if changes are ideal on either side. Overall I still feel the game is relatively balanced but that is a different discussion.
DOUBLE EDIT: I am not personally invested in the nature of any changes to the warp prism. I want to create a discussion where it (as a matter of principle as well) can be discussed from the perspectives of those playing today, and potentially those a year from now, and plan to promote many similar discussions in the future. I personally feel today (Nov 19th, 2015) that the warp prism creates a situation many players have trouble dealing with and could potentially be imbalanced in the current day in age. This is something that evolves over time and experience. PLEASE take that into account and don't assume it is made with assumed divine experience or opinion.
I am a somewhat high level player (NA random grandmaster while telling race)
and would like to speak on the warp prism both a protoss and non protoss (zerg is *was* my strongest race and does not factor into this very much). Results of me rushing warp prism in all non mirror protoss matchups: http://imgur.com/94oaU2H
Currently in legacy of the void I feel the early warp prism creates a very one sided dynamic. I would challenge both terran and zerg players to contest me on games the do not either revolve around attacks winning the game prior to early prism attacks or taking inordinate damage and/or revolving a build order around the threat of such attacks.
Personally as a terran, zerg, and protoss (to a much lesser extent) I have experienced the utility and resiliency of the warp prism, and found it not only frustrating, but POTENTIALLY (very much in dispute) imbalanced. I have abused the warp prism in very similar ways in the same matchups I have contested it to the same extent, otherwise I would not be making such a post.
I find that for Terran especially, the Warp Prism limits potential opening build orders to such an extent that Mech oriented builds are very enouraged, though not supported (A Cyclone seems the only way to repel a 2 base warp prism build outright, Polt is the only player with the prowess I've found to repel it without them).
For zerg players this means doing critical damage to a Protoss before they can begin meaningfully harassing with a warp prism (not being forced to spire) or being in a defensive posture until mutas or sufficient defenses are out, which usually means sucking it up and making lurkers and vipers.
Right now the warp prism seems like a shoehorn tool to allow protoss to do early damage,.....and it succeeds. But overall all races (including protoss themselves) means dealing with it early on in a very focused way, and pretty much tailoring their gameplay towards a single unit.
Personally I find it frustrating though relatively balanced, these are my suggestions (one of these would help remidiate the aforementioned issues):
-Units are dropped slower out of a prism
-Units take extra damage warping/dropping out of a prism
-Reduce Warp Prism Speed and/or HP
-Increase Warp Prism Build Time
-Pickup Range active only in phase mode
Right now the warp prism early limits zerg and terran openers and protoss still has plenty of option in those matchups. While I feel TvP and ZvP are still quite close to balanced this is something I would love to see discussed. Thanks for reading.
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Dude, you include (my BLALBALALB in BLALAL is supergood)(my X in Y is succesful)(I tell race)(I'm random)(I play all races)(I know because I know all races). It comes across as arrogant, sorry to say.
That, and your edit in contradicting itself:
EDIT: To start I don't have enough games (a few dozen is a fraction of what would be needed, and all of them would need to be higher level than my own), so I would like to create a discussion on the topic and if changes are ideal on either side. Overall I still feel the game is relatively balanced but that is a different discussion.
Additionally, we are 1 week into the game, these are defensive timings and they require time to be understood and defended well. Add a HORRIFIC map pool to that, and well, aerial harassment is strong. Who would have thought.
*Edit*
Just saw your name. That makes my first couple of comments even more applicable.
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On November 19 2015 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:Dude, you include (my BLALBALALB in BLALAL is supergood)(my X in Y is succesful)(I tell race)(I'm random)(I play all races)(I know because I know all races). It comes across as arrogant, sorry to say. That, and your edit in contradicting itself: Show nested quote +EDIT: To start I don't have enough games (a few dozen is a fraction of what would be needed, and all of them would need to be higher level than my own), so I would like to create a discussion on the topic and if changes are ideal on either side. Overall I still feel the game is relatively balanced but that is a different discussion. Additionally, we are 1 week into the game, these are defensive timings and they require time to be understood and defended well. Add a HORRIFIC map pool to that, and well, aerial harassment is strong. Who would have thought. *Edit* Just saw your name. That makes my first couple of comments even more applicable.
I don't feel it is imbalanced, I am looking to get feedback from more people about it in the same manner the community managers at Blizzcon explicitly directed. I am completely open to other points of view but what other options are there besides discussion?
I tried to articulate my thoughts in the most comprehensive manner possible from a very limited perspective. If everyone kept their perspective to themselves there wouldn't be any progress.
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Hmmmmmmmm I can see why you've come to TL and Battlenet, probably pretty hard to have a discussion with those viewbots huh?
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On November 19 2015 22:05 WinterStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:Dude, you include (my BLALBALALB in BLALAL is supergood)(my X in Y is succesful)(I tell race)(I'm random)(I play all races)(I know because I know all races). It comes across as arrogant, sorry to say. That, and your edit in contradicting itself: EDIT: To start I don't have enough games (a few dozen is a fraction of what would be needed, and all of them would need to be higher level than my own), so I would like to create a discussion on the topic and if changes are ideal on either side. Overall I still feel the game is relatively balanced but that is a different discussion. Additionally, we are 1 week into the game, these are defensive timings and they require time to be understood and defended well. Add a HORRIFIC map pool to that, and well, aerial harassment is strong. Who would have thought. *Edit* Just saw your name. That makes my first couple of comments even more applicable. I don't feel it is imbalanced, I am looking to get feedback from more people about it in the same manner the community managers at Blizzcon explicitly directed. I am completely open to other points of view but what other options are there besides discussion? I tried to articulate my thoughts in the most comprehensive manner possible from a very limited perspective. If everyone kept their perspective to themselves there wouldn't be any progress.
There is no use in discussion this early on. There is nothing to discuss because there are so many options still open and such a defining factor as this terrible map pool at play.
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What does his name have to do with any of this? I am a somewhat high level player (NA random grandmaster while telling race)and would like to speak on the warp prism both a protoss and non protoss (zerg is *was* my strongest race and does not factor into this very much). Results of me rushing warp prism in all non mirror protoss matchups
At the same time, though, I think that the warp prism all-in isn't that unfair. In HOTS you had stuff like the quick roach burrow or speed drilling claw mines. If you didn't scout those, you were kind of dead. If you didn't get detection, you WERE dead. It's the same mechanic here. While I don't like it very much, we should wait for the meta before making judgements.
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On November 19 2015 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:Dude, you include (my BLALBALALB in BLALAL is supergood)(my X in Y is succesful)(I tell race)(I'm random)(I play all races)(I know because I know all races). It comes across as arrogant, sorry to say. That, and your edit in contradicting itself: Show nested quote +EDIT: To start I don't have enough games (a few dozen is a fraction of what would be needed, and all of them would need to be higher level than my own), so I would like to create a discussion on the topic and if changes are ideal on either side. Overall I still feel the game is relatively balanced but that is a different discussion. Additionally, we are 1 week into the game, these are defensive timings and they require time to be understood and defended well. Add a HORRIFIC map pool to that, and well, aerial harassment is strong. Who would have thought. *Edit* Just saw your name. That makes my first couple of comments even more applicable.
I thought OP communicated quite cautiously. It's standard when someone bring up a potential balance issue for people to claim that the OP is a newbie (OP mentions qualifications to address this) and biased (OP addresses this as he/she plays random).
OP also admits the possibility that he/she is wrong and emphasizes wanting a civil discussion on the matter.
Regardless of your personal bias against OP, the post was well-communicated and deserves more respect than you mustered.
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On November 19 2015 22:11 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 22:05 WinterStarcraft wrote:On November 19 2015 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:Dude, you include (my BLALBALALB in BLALAL is supergood)(my X in Y is succesful)(I tell race)(I'm random)(I play all races)(I know because I know all races). It comes across as arrogant, sorry to say. That, and your edit in contradicting itself: EDIT: To start I don't have enough games (a few dozen is a fraction of what would be needed, and all of them would need to be higher level than my own), so I would like to create a discussion on the topic and if changes are ideal on either side. Overall I still feel the game is relatively balanced but that is a different discussion. Additionally, we are 1 week into the game, these are defensive timings and they require time to be understood and defended well. Add a HORRIFIC map pool to that, and well, aerial harassment is strong. Who would have thought. *Edit* Just saw your name. That makes my first couple of comments even more applicable. I don't feel it is imbalanced, I am looking to get feedback from more people about it in the same manner the community managers at Blizzcon explicitly directed. I am completely open to other points of view but what other options are there besides discussion? I tried to articulate my thoughts in the most comprehensive manner possible from a very limited perspective. If everyone kept their perspective to themselves there wouldn't be any progress. There is no use in discussion this early on. There is nothing to discuss because there are so many options still open and such a defining factor as this terrible map pool at play.
So TL's Post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/498719-legacy-of-the-week-ravager is irrelevant to discuss because of how early on in the stage of the game we are? I do agree my post may have been quite biased towards a certain perspective for obvious reasons, but I would like to discuss those reasons in a similar matter. If that is the general consensus here I will phrase my posts more accordingly in the future.
EDIT: I created my post subjectively as opposed to objectively like team liquid. I think there is field for both types of discussions here and wanted to present it.
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So nerfing the warp prism, what type of buff do you suggest for protoss then? You cannot just nerf the prism and leave it like that.
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At the same time, though, I think that the warp prism all-in isn't that unfair. In HOTS you had stuff like the quick roach burrow or speed drilling claw mines. If you didn't scout those, you were kind of dead. If you didn't get detection, you WERE dead. It's the same mechanic here. While I don't like it very much, we should wait for the meta before making judgements.
I would argue that the warp prism is a much less all in or time limited mechanic than thing's like roach burrow (I don't agree speed drilling claw mines were ever a concern). The act of scouting a robo, or even seeing a warp prism requires much more direct response than roach burrow or mines, and forces the player to react for several minutes, as opposed to < 1 required to respond to an attack on a timer like quick roach burrow.
EDIT: I should have phrased my original post to be titled, The EARLY Warp Prism. I feel warp prisms are great tools later in the game and have no issues.
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On November 19 2015 22:23 FreeZEternal wrote:
So nerfing the warp prism, what type of buff do you suggest for protoss then? You cannot just nerf the prism and leave it like that.
I feel that slight nerf to a quick warp prism would not warrant a buff for anything protoss, just an adaption from the players. With that in mind I wouldn't be opposed to an Observer base speed or hp buff to make it not one shottable by ravagers for example, and would encourage more players to focus on scouting.
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You need to keep in mind that those stats are very misleading. Considering the MMR reset, how many of those 14 PvT were played against people close to your level?
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On November 19 2015 22:29 Tiaraju9 wrote:
You need to keep in mind that those stats are very misleading. Considering the MMR reset, how many of those 14 PvT were played against people close to your level?
I have been playing consistently multiple GM level players. Once again I don't consider my stats to be any more than a "foot in the door" when it comes to qualifications, but I honestly believe I have been getting a leg up on players that might have more overall skill because of the concerns I addressed. That is part of the reason I made this post.
EDIT: My Terran stats are also against similar level players for argument's sake.
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Well aren't people assholes nowadays.
I agree with the most important part of your post, while warp prism is (maybe) balanced, it hurts the other races flexibility, its the same thing as the oracle in HotS, it was totally balanced but it was such a threat that it completely destroyed a lot options because a build either had anti-oracle measures or it straight died. Wich is why all terrans builds where either WM drops or 3 rax in TvP.
Its the same here, will people find ways to defend in timely manner warp prism builds? yes I'm certain they will, but... Do we REALLY want to have all builds be the same because you either have that ONE thing that stops it or you just die? I'm sure most protoss players do, like in HotS there where even builds where protoss didn't scout at all, but do we really want that again?
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On November 19 2015 22:38 Lexender wrote:
Well aren't people assholes nowadays.
I agree with the most important part of your post, while warp prism is (maybe) balanced, it hurts the other races flexibility, its the same thing as the oracle in HotS, it was totally balanced but it was such a threat that it completely destroyed a lot options because a build either had anti-oracle measures or it straight died. Wich is why all terrans builds where either WM drops or 3 rax in TvP.
Its the same here, will people find ways to defend in timely manner warp prism builds? yes I'm certain they will, but... Do we REALLY want to have all builds be the same because you either have that ONE thing that stops it or you just die? I'm sure most protoss players do, like in HotS there where even builds where protoss didn't scout at all, do we really want that again?
I don't think we have come far enough in LOTV to make that decision yet, but it is something over the next couple weeks I personally have investment in, and hope is valid enough Blizzard considers as the "meta" develops.
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beep boop
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things 
Anyway, it's also fun when Winter states that nerfing WP is OK, because Protoss is good with nerfed WP. I, personally, will trust more these 3 named when they say Protoss is fucked than believing to somehow like Winter. (it's not about viewbotting and the fact he lied before but the fact that these 3 were pro players)
(though they were mostly debating PvZ, Geoff said that PvT is kinda OKish even though P is on the weak side)
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On November 19 2015 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:Dude, you include (my BLALBALALB in BLALAL is supergood)(my X in Y is succesful)(I tell race)(I'm random)(I play all races)(I know because I know all races). It comes across as arrogant, sorry to say. That, and your edit in contradicting itself: Show nested quote +EDIT: To start I don't have enough games (a few dozen is a fraction of what would be needed, and all of them would need to be higher level than my own), so I would like to create a discussion on the topic and if changes are ideal on either side. Overall I still feel the game is relatively balanced but that is a different discussion. Additionally, we are 1 week into the game, these are defensive timings and they require time to be understood and defended well. Add a HORRIFIC map pool to that, and well, aerial harassment is strong. Who would have thought. *Edit* Just saw your name. That makes my first couple of comments even more applicable.
The post is actually pretty well thought out. A backstory of him playing all races is just him telling the reader how it feels on terran side, toss and zerg.
I am not as high a league but the speed at the which the warp prism can reach the opposing base and with the huge pickup radius, it does feel pretty difficult to play against without building turrets all over your base. The investment is huge.
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If it is the speed at which it comes out that you are concerned with, an upgrade would solve it. Do you think that a Pick-Up-Range upgrade on the Robotics Support Bay could be a potential solution?
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On November 19 2015 23:23 RoomOfMush wrote:
If it is the speed at which it comes out that you are concerned with, an upgrade would solve it. Do you think that a Pick-Up-Range upgrade on the Robotics Support Bay could be a potential solution?
I think a much more subtle change like a bnet user suggest of required pickup range to only be active when in phase mode could be more than enough to shift the dynamic.
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On November 19 2015 23:29 WinterStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 23:23 RoomOfMush wrote:
If it is the speed at which it comes out that you are concerned with, an upgrade would solve it. Do you think that a Pick-Up-Range upgrade on the Robotics Support Bay could be a potential solution? I think a much more subtle change like a bnet user suggest of required pickup range to only be active when in phase mode could be more than enough to shift the dynamic.
That would be a more sublte change, but it would also introduce a new, arbitrary rule. Suddenly its ability to pick up units would change its behavior depending on phase mode. Sure, you can do it and yes its not that hard to understand, but its not intuitive. Its not something that you can observe by just playing. Its something you have to read in the tooltips or else you wouldnt understand it.
An upgrade on the other hand is a tried and true mechanic that is used throughout the game. It keeps the game mechanics consistent and reduces the need for learning new rules.
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No, no, no, no and no.
I think the standard "game's only been out for a week, give it time" response applies here.
PvT has shifted immensely because of the Adept and the Colossus change. Used to be that our best units were late game and so we'd turtle until we could mass them. Now our best unit is in the early game. So builds revolve around doing as much economic damage to the Terran as possible and hoping that the nerfed Colossus can kill them with enough of a lead.
Beginning of HotS was just non stop Widow Mine cheese. And we eventually learned to deal with it (but that didn't make it obsolete... it just didn't win ALL the time).
So basically, Terran has to learn to play the way Protoss did for a while. Defend early game aggression, get your bases set up, and then finally get ready to put a hurt on the Protoss with your shiny Liberators.
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On November 19 2015 23:43 DinoMight wrote:
No, no, no, no and no.
I think the standard "game's only been out for a week, give it time" response applies here.
PvT has shifted immensely because of the Adept and the Colossus change. Used to be that our best units were late game and so we'd turtle until we could mass them. Now our best unit is in the early game. So builds revolve around doing as much economic damage to the Terran as possible and hoping that the nerfed Colossus can kill them with enough of a lead.
Beginning of HotS was just non stop Widow Mine cheese. And we eventually learned to deal with it (but that didn't make it obsolete... it just didn't win ALL the time).
So basically, Terran has to learn to play the way Protoss did for a while. Defend early game aggression, get your bases set up, and then finally get ready to put a hurt on the Protoss with your shiny Liberators.
Fair enough, but you're directly asking for a "Liberators Create A Mediocre Dynamic" post  . In seriousness I do agree, but it is my interest to create discussion around the balance of the game on a regular basis from a semi pro/below perspective. I appreciate the input.
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On November 19 2015 23:48 WinterStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 23:43 DinoMight wrote:
No, no, no, no and no.
I think the standard "game's only been out for a week, give it time" response applies here.
PvT has shifted immensely because of the Adept and the Colossus change. Used to be that our best units were late game and so we'd turtle until we could mass them. Now our best unit is in the early game. So builds revolve around doing as much economic damage to the Terran as possible and hoping that the nerfed Colossus can kill them with enough of a lead.
Beginning of HotS was just non stop Widow Mine cheese. And we eventually learned to deal with it (but that didn't make it obsolete... it just didn't win ALL the time).
So basically, Terran has to learn to play the way Protoss did for a while. Defend early game aggression, get your bases set up, and then finally get ready to put a hurt on the Protoss with your shiny Liberators. Fair enough, but you're directly asking for a "Liberators Create A Mediocre Dynamic" post .
Lol. Now THAT's something I can get behind 
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On November 19 2015 23:53 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 23:48 WinterStarcraft wrote:On November 19 2015 23:43 DinoMight wrote:
No, no, no, no and no.
I think the standard "game's only been out for a week, give it time" response applies here.
PvT has shifted immensely because of the Adept and the Colossus change. Used to be that our best units were late game and so we'd turtle until we could mass them. Now our best unit is in the early game. So builds revolve around doing as much economic damage to the Terran as possible and hoping that the nerfed Colossus can kill them with enough of a lead.
Beginning of HotS was just non stop Widow Mine cheese. And we eventually learned to deal with it (but that didn't make it obsolete... it just didn't win ALL the time).
So basically, Terran has to learn to play the way Protoss did for a while. Defend early game aggression, get your bases set up, and then finally get ready to put a hurt on the Protoss with your shiny Liberators. Fair enough, but you're directly asking for a "Liberators Create A Mediocre Dynamic" post . Lol. Now THAT's something I can get behind
I don't have the Terran experience specifically or overall experience from the other races to back it up in the same way I have made this post, but it is on the short list of things to discuss in the future. It is an insanely interesting unit and somewhat unlike the warp prism I don't think it has been explored on both sides to nearly the extent.
I feel like I should end this with Liberator are imba, though I can't commit to it yet
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Stop. You actually said warp prism was imbalanced against Protoss. Warp prism is one of the few things in this game that indisputably creates action, strategy, and places for more skilled players to show off. Even your bots could tell you that.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Useless bot comments after this point will be considered ad hominem and be dealt with properly. It's irrelevant to this discussion. Please stay on topic.
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United Kingdom36158 Posts
On November 19 2015 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:Dude, you include (my BLALBALALB in BLALAL is supergood)(my X in Y is succesful)(I tell race)(I'm random)(I play all races)(I know because I know all races). It comes across as arrogant, sorry to say. That, and your edit in contradicting itself: Show nested quote +EDIT: To start I don't have enough games (a few dozen is a fraction of what would be needed, and all of them would need to be higher level than my own), so I would like to create a discussion on the topic and if changes are ideal on either side. Overall I still feel the game is relatively balanced but that is a different discussion. Additionally, we are 1 week into the game, these are defensive timings and they require time to be understood and defended well. Add a HORRIFIC map pool to that, and well, aerial harassment is strong. Who would have thought. *Edit* Just saw your name. That makes my first couple of comments even more applicable.
his post came across just fine
yours came across atrociously.
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On November 19 2015 22:08 Weird wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm I can see why you've come to TL and Battlenet, probably pretty hard to have a discussion with those viewbots huh?
How much money do you make a month streaming starcraft?
#Salt
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There's no replays or anything. I've seen Maximusblack rush warp prism and lose to terran.
I don't have much input really. oh well.
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On November 19 2015 23:02 deacon.frost wrote:Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things Anyway, it's also fun when Winter states that nerfing WP is OK, because Protoss is good with nerfed WP. I, personally, will trust more these 3 named when they say Protoss is fucked than believing to somehow like Winter. (it's not about viewbotting and the fact he lied before but the fact that these 3 were pro players) (though they were mostly debating PvZ, Geoff said that PvT is kinda OKish even though P is on the weak side)
Thats a very VERY wrong way of looking at things, protoss will be balanced, all races will be, at some point, so saying "we need this because protoss UP" is wrong, just because protoss is weak.
A mechanic should be made around how fun and interesting it is, and right now its very fun for protoss players, but very unfun for non protoss players so around 50-50, I don't think warp prism needs to be nerfed because IMBA, but certain stuff needs to be implemented to allow for counter play.
Things will be play out of course I don't expect Blizzard to patch anything for a few weeks at least, but that doesn't mean we can't have a discussion about how to make a better player experience.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 20 2015 02:01 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 23:02 deacon.frost wrote:Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things Anyway, it's also fun when Winter states that nerfing WP is OK, because Protoss is good with nerfed WP. I, personally, will trust more these 3 named when they say Protoss is fucked than believing to somehow like Winter. (it's not about viewbotting and the fact he lied before but the fact that these 3 were pro players) (though they were mostly debating PvZ, Geoff said that PvT is kinda OKish even though P is on the weak side) Thats a very VERY wrong way of looking at things, protoss will be balanced, all races will be, at some point, so saying "we need this because protoss UP" is wrong, just because protoss is weak. A mechanic should be made around how fun and interesting it is, and right now its very fun for protoss players, but very unfun for non protoss players so around 50-50, I don't think warp prism needs to be nerfed because IMBA, but certain stuff needs to be implemented to allow for counter play. Things will be play out of course I don't expect Blizzard to patch anything for a few weeks at least, but that doesn't mean we can't have a discussion about how to make a better player experience.
This thread started as a balance one. I agree that what is discussed is mostly design and not balance. But because it is a balance thread I brought balance view on PvZ from TLG.
And I agree with you, from design view we should balance races first about fun things and then start the balancing around game results and OPness.
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What exactly are we talking about? What does warp prism do that creates bad dynamics? "It's too strong" is not an answer, since we've decided to field the discussion in the realm of "it's balanced nonetheless, probably". So WHAT is it? That'd be a good thing to add to the OP. Maybe example games?
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On November 20 2015 02:18 deacon.frost wrote:And I agree with you, from design view we should balance races first about fun things and then start the balancing around game results and OPness.
Agree too,
basically design things for the possibilities it brings to the whole, then tweak to balance ;
not design to balance then tweak for more possibilities, that's nuts (?).
Because design creates the rules for possibilities so you want to balance after that to change the weight of possibilities and give all races good chances to win in the playstyles they propose.
If you design to balance, you only apply patches to issues in the balance of your previous design, likely destroying possibilities in the process. Then if you tweak values (balance) to increase possibilities... that gives you a very forced metagame in which the players play for small optimizations?
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Terran was pigeonholed into two builds for a large part of the hots era (3rax and 1-1-1 wm drop) just because the oracle exist, so I don't see a problem here if we shouldn't now have even less build diversity (1-1-1).
But generally speaking, I think it is way too early to tell how the metagame will shape. So many (former) pros and other players are experimenting right now and the timings are unknown, it's really hard to tell how things will work out.
Anyone remember how long Blizzard has let us defend against 2base blink all in early 2014 before they changed the map pool, because they wanted the players to figure out the best response.
On November 19 2015 23:02 deacon.frost wrote:
Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things
TBH, I listen more to a random player instead to former pros that are too bad to affect the meta game, but that is just me. And everyone playing a single race is biased, even korean top pros.
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On November 20 2015 00:35 dr3am_b3ing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 22:08 Weird wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm I can see why you've come to TL and Battlenet, probably pretty hard to have a discussion with those viewbots huh? How much money do you make a month streaming starcraft? #Salt
I'm sorry, I have a real job that doesn't involve buying fake people to love me so real people (tools) will follow me and give me money for being a d-bag (and defend me on forums LOL).
I bet that money feels good though, all of that hard work.
#Winter'sToolArmyBEEPBOOP
User was temp banned for this post.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 20 2015 03:25 apocom wrote:Terran was pigeonholed into two builds for a large part of the hots era (3rax and 1-1-1 wm drop) just because the oracle exist, so I don't see a problem here if we shouldn't now have even less build diversity (1-1-1). But generally speaking, I think it is way too early to tell how the metagame will shape. So many (former) pros and other players are experimenting right now and the timings are unknown, it's really hard to tell how things will work out. Anyone remember how long Blizzard has let us defend against 2base blink all in early 2014 before they changed the map pool, because they wanted the players to figure out the best response. Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 23:02 deacon.frost wrote:
Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things TBH, I listen more to a random player instead to former pros that are too bad to affect the meta game, but that is just me. And everyone playing a single race is biased, even korean top pros.
That is your choice, but I was reacting to the part about "how about we nerf WP and do not give anything in return, Protoss players will adapt!" which is BS to me. Since it was right above my post i was not using "Quote" button. But maybe I am just biased against Winter because I believed him before and was burned  Not sure.
Anyway, we do not have enough time. Seriously, in a month or so Proleague starts and in 2 months WCS/GSL/SSL starts! It is time to stop jerking around and really start doing things. Too many people is relying on SC2 as the source of their income, numbers in Korea were growing, we cannot lose this because we will be changing things during leagues...
I think that the argument "we have just a week behind us, lets wait" is bad. It is true but we do not have enough time, so Blizzard should start doing things.
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LOL now i finally understand how ppl feel when avilo post stuff on here cant believe this guy had the balls to post anything on this website.
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it is intended that warp prism offers a better "blink" stalker than the actual blink stalker?
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On November 20 2015 03:39 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 03:25 apocom wrote:Terran was pigeonholed into two builds for a large part of the hots era (3rax and 1-1-1 wm drop) just because the oracle exist, so I don't see a problem here if we shouldn't now have even less build diversity (1-1-1). But generally speaking, I think it is way too early to tell how the metagame will shape. So many (former) pros and other players are experimenting right now and the timings are unknown, it's really hard to tell how things will work out. Anyone remember how long Blizzard has let us defend against 2base blink all in early 2014 before they changed the map pool, because they wanted the players to figure out the best response. On November 19 2015 23:02 deacon.frost wrote:
Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things TBH, I listen more to a random player instead to former pros that are too bad to affect the meta game, but that is just me. And everyone playing a single race is biased, even korean top pros. That is your choice, but I was reacting to the part about "how about we nerf WP and do not give anything in return, Protoss players will adapt!" which is BS to me. Since it was right above my post i was not using "Quote" button. But maybe I am just biased against Winter because I believed him before and was burned Not sure. Anyway, we do not have enough time. Seriously, in a month or so Proleague starts and in 2 months WCS/GSL/SSL starts! It is time to stop jerking around and really start doing things. Too many people is relying on SC2 as the source of their income, numbers in Korea were growing, we cannot lose this because we will be changing things during leagues... I think that the argument "we have just a week behind us, lets wait" is bad. It is true but we do not have enough time, so Blizzard should start doing things.
Why should Blizzard should start doing things now? Nobody expect that the game is perfectly balanced right now, but we have still no metagame. Many players still play HotS instead of LotV.
When we had 3 terrans out of 32 players in Code S, with 16 protoss, Incontrol told us how good the game was balanced. Maybe I'm still a bit salty about this, but for me he is not the guy to listen.
Personally I don't expect that Blizzard will change much in the next half year, except something is obviously OP.
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On November 20 2015 04:00 apocom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 03:39 deacon.frost wrote:On November 20 2015 03:25 apocom wrote:Terran was pigeonholed into two builds for a large part of the hots era (3rax and 1-1-1 wm drop) just because the oracle exist, so I don't see a problem here if we shouldn't now have even less build diversity (1-1-1). But generally speaking, I think it is way too early to tell how the metagame will shape. So many (former) pros and other players are experimenting right now and the timings are unknown, it's really hard to tell how things will work out. Anyone remember how long Blizzard has let us defend against 2base blink all in early 2014 before they changed the map pool, because they wanted the players to figure out the best response. On November 19 2015 23:02 deacon.frost wrote:
Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things TBH, I listen more to a random player instead to former pros that are too bad to affect the meta game, but that is just me. And everyone playing a single race is biased, even korean top pros. That is your choice, but I was reacting to the part about "how about we nerf WP and do not give anything in return, Protoss players will adapt!" which is BS to me. Since it was right above my post i was not using "Quote" button. But maybe I am just biased against Winter because I believed him before and was burned Not sure. Anyway, we do not have enough time. Seriously, in a month or so Proleague starts and in 2 months WCS/GSL/SSL starts! It is time to stop jerking around and really start doing things. Too many people is relying on SC2 as the source of their income, numbers in Korea were growing, we cannot lose this because we will be changing things during leagues... I think that the argument "we have just a week behind us, lets wait" is bad. It is true but we do not have enough time, so Blizzard should start doing things. Why should Blizzard should start doing things now? Nobody expect that the game is perfectly balanced right now, but we have still no metagame. Many players still play HotS instead of LotV.
What ? Every top players are playing LotV and we do have a strong metagame (not for all MUs) for almost 1 month now.
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On November 20 2015 07:51 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 04:00 apocom wrote:On November 20 2015 03:39 deacon.frost wrote:On November 20 2015 03:25 apocom wrote:Terran was pigeonholed into two builds for a large part of the hots era (3rax and 1-1-1 wm drop) just because the oracle exist, so I don't see a problem here if we shouldn't now have even less build diversity (1-1-1). But generally speaking, I think it is way too early to tell how the metagame will shape. So many (former) pros and other players are experimenting right now and the timings are unknown, it's really hard to tell how things will work out. Anyone remember how long Blizzard has let us defend against 2base blink all in early 2014 before they changed the map pool, because they wanted the players to figure out the best response. On November 19 2015 23:02 deacon.frost wrote:
Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things TBH, I listen more to a random player instead to former pros that are too bad to affect the meta game, but that is just me. And everyone playing a single race is biased, even korean top pros. That is your choice, but I was reacting to the part about "how about we nerf WP and do not give anything in return, Protoss players will adapt!" which is BS to me. Since it was right above my post i was not using "Quote" button. But maybe I am just biased against Winter because I believed him before and was burned Not sure. Anyway, we do not have enough time. Seriously, in a month or so Proleague starts and in 2 months WCS/GSL/SSL starts! It is time to stop jerking around and really start doing things. Too many people is relying on SC2 as the source of their income, numbers in Korea were growing, we cannot lose this because we will be changing things during leagues... I think that the argument "we have just a week behind us, lets wait" is bad. It is true but we do not have enough time, so Blizzard should start doing things. Why should Blizzard should start doing things now? Nobody expect that the game is perfectly balanced right now, but we have still no metagame. Many players still play HotS instead of LotV. What ? Every top players are playing LotV and we do have a strong metagame (not for all MUs) for almost 1 month now.
With playing HotS I've meant that the meta is still strong based on HotS and I've the feeling that a lot of units and changes are not really explored.
I'm curious how Dreamhack next week will play out. I doubt that metagame will be that strong, but we will see.
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Early warp prism is an issue imo but it is a big investment and probably would get meta out eventually.
But in longer games it perfectly fine, it creates dynamic in terms of controlling the enemy army movement and positioning
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On November 20 2015 04:00 apocom wrote:
Personally I don't expect that Blizzard will change much in the next half year, except something is obviously OP.
I agree with apocom that changes are unlikely here.
Nonetheless, if we're going to talk about the warp-prism as a unit, then I think that the only possible problem it might have is early aggression with low-risk, high-reward warp-ins.
Instead of the opponent having to respond in 5 hots seconds ... I'd expect that the early warp-prism warp in things more slowly, but be capable of carrying more stuff.
Not saying these numbers are exactly balanced ... but if Blizzard were to re-tool the warp-prism to change its impact in the early game, I'd prefer something like the following over the options in the OP:
- Warp-prism cargo capacity increased (16 instead of 8)
- Warp-prisms warp-in units at the unpowered pylon speed (16 HotS seconds)
- An upgrade is unlocked by robo bay that allows individual warp prisms to upgrade to (5 HotS seconds) powered pylon speed (say 75 / 75 and 90 seconds?)
So, early game Protoss would have to risk units in the prism to do drops (and have room to do so), while still having the capability to punish a player failing to respond at all ... and late-game, they still get the capability to warp-in quickly, but at an actual increased cost per individual warp-prism. It also doesn't sacrifice any of the interesting micro that can be pulled off by using warp-prism pick-up range.
I think this kind of trade-off is much more interesting than simply reducing the capability of the warp-prism all-game-long.
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not to be rude but actually i feel its too early to say this is bad or not...even if you have a couple of games..game still is new.
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On November 20 2015 10:19 Edowyth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 04:00 apocom wrote:
Personally I don't expect that Blizzard will change much in the next half year, except something is obviously OP.
I agree with apocom that changes are unlikely here. Nonetheless, if we're going to talk about the warp-prism as a unit, then I think that the only possible problem it might have is early aggression with low-risk, high-reward warp-ins. Instead of the opponent having to respond in 5 hots seconds ... I'd expect that the early warp-prism warp in things more slowly, but be capable of carrying more stuff. Not saying these numbers are exactly balanced ... but if Blizzard were to re-tool the warp-prism to change its impact in the early game, I'd prefer something like the following over the options in the OP: - Warp-prism cargo capacity increased (16 instead of 8) - Warp-prisms warp-in units at the unpowered pylon speed (16 HotS seconds) - An upgrade is unlocked by robo bay that allows individual warp prisms to upgrade to (5 HotS seconds) powered pylon speed (say 75 / 75 and 90 seconds?) So, early game Protoss would have to risk units in the prism to do drops (and have room to do so), while still having the capability to punish a player failing to respond at all ... and late-game, they still get the capability to warp-in quickly, but at an actual increased cost per individual warp-prism. It also doesn't sacrifice any of the interesting micro that can be pulled off by using warp-prism pick-up range. I think this kind of trade-off is much more interesting than simply reducing the capability of the warp-prism all-game-long.
The issue with these suggestions, and Winter's original post is that the problem that we are trying to reduce is not exactly clear.
Is the issue. A. Warp Prism All-ins still too strong or B. Warp Prism harass with adepts
Because if you are trying to 'fix' A with suggestions like "Warp-prism cargo capacity increased (16 instead of 8)" and Nerfing Warp-ins you are exacerbating problem B.
The issue is, it's not exactly just the Warp Prism that creates the arguably bad dynamic. It's the synergy with the adept. If the adept didn't exist no other gateway unit really would create this problem.
From my perspective I do not believe the straight up warping into their base is that bad of a problem outside of a dirty 1 base proxy 6gaterobo build, where it definitely seems to straight up kill a lot of Terran.
So from the impression that Winter's first post and solutions was more about the threat of high economic damage directly from dropping 4 adepts from a slippery warp prism causing Terran solely having to open cyclone is the issue. So let's take Winter's suggestions
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1. Units are dropped slower out of a prism
2. Units take extra damage warping/dropping out of a prism
3. Reduce Warp Prism Speed and/or HP
4. Increase Warp Prism Build Time
5. Pickup Range active only in phase mode
1. How slow would it have to be to successfully kerb the issue, without making it clunky?
2. It would probably affect way too many things outside of the presented issue to make sense(At least the dropping part)
3. Would make the prism less slippery, but HP reduction would hurt the prism lategame. Terran's medivac is able to boost through defenses and still able to get damage done late game against a base with static defenses. If you were to lower the prism health, 1-2 turrets completely shuts it down even more than it currently does.
4. It could work, 10-20seconds build time? Is it enough that Terran could put up a better defense? Maybe, in some situations. The main issue is that Robo time is already so important, it feels like adding more time would be really punishing certain situations.
5. Good idea that could work, but... I so enjoy using the prism to micro with the army. I think the prism in it's current form is one of the funnest changes in LoTV.
Maybe a good idea is to actually combine one of these suggestions with the Warp Prism speed upgrade(instead of making more upgrades for it which seems a bit silly). Making the Bay upgrade more desirable and used and not actually nerfing the prism outside of early game is best.
Perhaps the one that makes the most sense is nerfing the pickup range and adding it to the Speed upgrade.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 20 2015 04:00 apocom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 03:39 deacon.frost wrote:On November 20 2015 03:25 apocom wrote:Terran was pigeonholed into two builds for a large part of the hots era (3rax and 1-1-1 wm drop) just because the oracle exist, so I don't see a problem here if we shouldn't now have even less build diversity (1-1-1). But generally speaking, I think it is way too early to tell how the metagame will shape. So many (former) pros and other players are experimenting right now and the timings are unknown, it's really hard to tell how things will work out. Anyone remember how long Blizzard has let us defend against 2base blink all in early 2014 before they changed the map pool, because they wanted the players to figure out the best response. On November 19 2015 23:02 deacon.frost wrote:
Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things TBH, I listen more to a random player instead to former pros that are too bad to affect the meta game, but that is just me. And everyone playing a single race is biased, even korean top pros. That is your choice, but I was reacting to the part about "how about we nerf WP and do not give anything in return, Protoss players will adapt!" which is BS to me. Since it was right above my post i was not using "Quote" button. But maybe I am just biased against Winter because I believed him before and was burned Not sure. Anyway, we do not have enough time. Seriously, in a month or so Proleague starts and in 2 months WCS/GSL/SSL starts! It is time to stop jerking around and really start doing things. Too many people is relying on SC2 as the source of their income, numbers in Korea were growing, we cannot lose this because we will be changing things during leagues... I think that the argument "we have just a week behind us, lets wait" is bad. It is true but we do not have enough time, so Blizzard should start doing things. Why should Blizzard should start doing things now? Nobody expect that the game is perfectly balanced right now, but we have still no metagame. Many players still play HotS instead of LotV. When we had 3 terrans out of 32 players in Code S, with 16 protoss, Incontrol told us how good the game was balanced. Maybe I'm still a bit salty about this, but for me he is not the guy to listen. Personally I don't expect that Blizzard will change much in the next half year, except something is obviously OP.
Because it was about maps. When the map begs to use blink all in and you are about to win money why wouldn't you use it? MSC vision range & map pool was the biggest problem back then. Also when we had 5 Protoss out of 32 players in Code S - Terran players "were just better", this is eternal idiotic discussion.
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wow amazing
User was temp banned for this post.
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Thats funny, i thought the same of you as a streamer. Sadly, it doesnt seem to bother people. Both will stay and annoy people
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On November 20 2015 11:14 Beliskner wrote:
The issue with these suggestions, and Winter's original post is that the problem that we are trying to reduce is not exactly clear.
Is the issue. A. Warp Prism All-ins still too strong or B. Warp Prism harass with adepts
Because if you are trying to 'fix' A with suggestions like "Warp-prism cargo capacity increased (16 instead of 8)" and Nerfing Warp-ins you are exacerbating problem B.
The issue is, it's not exactly just the Warp Prism that creates the arguably bad dynamic. It's the synergy with the adept. If the adept didn't exist no other gateway unit really would create this problem.
From my perspective I do not believe the straight up warping into their base is that bad of a problem outside of a dirty 1 base proxy 6gaterobo build, where it definitely seems to straight up kill a lot of Terran.
So from the impression that Winter's first post and solutions was more about the threat of high economic damage directly from dropping 4 adepts from a slippery warp prism causing Terran solely having to open cyclone is the issue. So let's take Winter's suggestions
It surprises me that someone would say this. I haven't seen anyone struggle with just 4 adepts from a prism (at least, not since they were nerfed in beta). It's the warp-ins that opponents always seem to struggle to deal with.
I'd like to stress that I don't really see the problems the OP is mentioning, which is why my post starts out so hesitant. My suggestion, therefore, is based purely off of design concerns: No matter what Blizzard does, I'd really like to continue seeing warp-prism usage early, mid, and late game -- all game long.
I think that, if warp-in speed or even just adepts are giving an opponent problems early, a change should be made to delay the power until later -- not simply to reduce that power. Warp prisms do not appear overly powerful in the late-game to me.
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If cyclone is really an effective way to beat this opening, wheres the problem?
IF a strategy demands a specific answer, and people dont know about it yet - its their problem.
When protoss played against 1-1-1, they couldnt win by teching templar or going for a greedy third.
When you get cannonrushed, you cant win by making ultralisks, hydras, lurkers, roaches etc.
A build is overpowered when the perfect response still ends with you behind, or the perfect resonse is too difficult in comparison. Neither apply here.
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I see no problem with the warp prism, as it stands terrans and zergs are really greedy with their expansions and there should be a way to punish that else you are just going to see them sweep the games away like usual in mid to late game. I also have seen the warp prism deflected many times and not by cyclones..
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Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing ranged prism pickup and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon.
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On November 20 2015 22:34 JackONeill wrote:
Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing 2sec prism warp and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon.
Warp Prism warp-in got changed in the last patch of the beta, you're just bitching senselessly right now. But as it stands, nerfing pylon overcharge RIGHT NOW will just make Protoss completely unplayable.
Protoss macro mechanic got nerfed compared to Z and T mechanics.
Collossus nerf killed off our most useful unit at dealing damage to T and Z armies and P didn't get anything to compensate for this (Disruptors are utter trash outside of PvP. 40 second cooldown on a shot that can be dodged easily with decent micro)
Economy changes benefited T and Z a lot more. T have the cheapest base units and can get their infrastructure and a decent sized army up much quicker than P, making it a hell of a lot easier to steamroll a Protoss trying to get to the right tech to deal with a large sized Terran army. (Stimmed marines and marauders can easily kill Adepts in the current balance.)
The need to expand more and more often is actually really bad for Protoss, unlike T and Z, P cannot split their army to defend multiple places, Protoss units are just too fragile for that.
Oh and lets not forget, you nerf warp-prisms too much and leave P to have to use pylons to reinforce? Oh Protoss then have to wait 16 seconds for units to warp in because of the pylon changes making it completely pointless to even invest in a pylon in the first place to reinforce.
Protoss is in a bad spot right now, and while I agree the pylon overcharge is really stupid (especially in PvP) you can't just outright remove it right now without addressing some really serious issues that exist for Protoss right now.
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I've been struggling a lot against warp prism play, can anybody give me any suggestions in dealing with them? It's usually the typical 4 adept+Warp ins, which I feel is guaranteed to do a significant amount of damage, I don't really see any unit that can help deal with it outside of trying to dice roll with a couple of widow mines. I'm playing at a diamond level so admittedly I'm a little lost on what its actually costing protoss and what the opponent could be doing at base, but it seems to take up so much attention and get away without any serious risk because of the speed and distance pick-ups.
I haven't played against any disruptor warp prism drops, but I can't imagine being able to respond to that if a decent micro player can do it, because you really need some intense reaction time to counter something like that.
I've been losing a significant amount of my TvP's but I think it's because I think I am basing my play off of old style WoL and HoTS where the terran has to out-expand the protoss throughout the match-up.
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On November 20 2015 22:34 JackONeill wrote:
Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing 2sec prism warp and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon.
This post confirms my suspicion that a lot of people in these foruns engage in discussions such as this one without even playing the game.
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On November 20 2015 23:03 KatatoniK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 22:34 JackONeill wrote:
Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing 2sec prism warp and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon. Warp Prism warp-in got changed in the last patch of the beta, you're just bitching senselessly right now. But as it stands, nerfing pylon overcharge RIGHT NOW will just make Protoss completely unplayable. Protoss macro mechanic got nerfed compared to Z and T mechanics. Collossus nerf killed off our most useful unit at dealing damage to T and Z armies and P didn't get anything to compensate for this (Disruptors are utter trash outside of PvP. 40 second cooldown on a shot that can be dodged easily with decent micro) Economy changes benefited T and Z a lot more. T have the cheapest base units and can get their infrastructure and a decent sized army up much quicker than P, making it a hell of a lot easier to steamroll a Protoss trying to get to the right tech to deal with a large sized Terran army. (Stimmed marines and marauders can easily kill Adepts in the current balance.) The need to expand more and more often is actually really bad for Protoss, unlike T and Z, P cannot split their army to defend multiple places, Protoss units are just too fragile for that. Oh and lets not forget, you nerf warp-prisms too much and leave P to have to use pylons to reinforce? Oh Protoss then have to wait 16 seconds for units to warp in because of the pylon changes making it completely pointless to even invest in a pylon in the first place to reinforce. Protoss is in a bad spot right now, and while I agree the pylon overcharge is really stupid (especially in PvP) you can't just outright remove it right now without addressing some really serious issues that exist for Protoss right now.
I disagree with a few points.
- T macro mechanic got nerfed, mule was around 20% stronger.
- with the ecenomy changes we have to see, Protoss got with Adept a good warpgate unit.
- protoss is not in a bad spot right now, the game isn't even released for 2 weeks (I know, the beta was longer, but with huge changes)
But I agree with the point that they shouldn't nerf the warpprism. ATM it seems it's the tool for P to move out in the early game and very vital for P all game long.
Again a lot of things are heavily unexplored, like the Protoss AoE composition. I see a lot of high level Protoss having really different opinios about the colossus right now.
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On November 20 2015 23:12 apocom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 23:03 KatatoniK wrote:On November 20 2015 22:34 JackONeill wrote:
Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing 2sec prism warp and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon. Warp Prism warp-in got changed in the last patch of the beta, you're just bitching senselessly right now. But as it stands, nerfing pylon overcharge RIGHT NOW will just make Protoss completely unplayable. Protoss macro mechanic got nerfed compared to Z and T mechanics. Collossus nerf killed off our most useful unit at dealing damage to T and Z armies and P didn't get anything to compensate for this (Disruptors are utter trash outside of PvP. 40 second cooldown on a shot that can be dodged easily with decent micro) Economy changes benefited T and Z a lot more. T have the cheapest base units and can get their infrastructure and a decent sized army up much quicker than P, making it a hell of a lot easier to steamroll a Protoss trying to get to the right tech to deal with a large sized Terran army. (Stimmed marines and marauders can easily kill Adepts in the current balance.) The need to expand more and more often is actually really bad for Protoss, unlike T and Z, P cannot split their army to defend multiple places, Protoss units are just too fragile for that. Oh and lets not forget, you nerf warp-prisms too much and leave P to have to use pylons to reinforce? Oh Protoss then have to wait 16 seconds for units to warp in because of the pylon changes making it completely pointless to even invest in a pylon in the first place to reinforce. Protoss is in a bad spot right now, and while I agree the pylon overcharge is really stupid (especially in PvP) you can't just outright remove it right now without addressing some really serious issues that exist for Protoss right now. I disagree with a few points. - T macro mechanic got nerfed, mule was around 20% stronger. - with the ecenomy changes we have to see, Protoss got with Adept a good warpgate unit. - protoss is not in a bad spot right now, the game isn't even released for 2 weeks (I know, the beta was longer, but with huge changes) But I agree with the point that they shouldn't nerf the warpprism. ATM it seems it's the tool for P to move out in the early game and very vital for P all game long. Again a lot of things are heavily unexplored, like the Protoss AoE composition. I see a lot of high level Protoss having really different opinios about the colossus right now.
I think most players agree the Colossus is worthless. The discussion seems to revolve around Disruptors or HTs, and how to deal with enemies that split well enough because you lack consistent splash.
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Parting still uses Colossus very well. I wouldn't count them out just yet.
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On November 20 2015 23:12 apocom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 23:03 KatatoniK wrote:On November 20 2015 22:34 JackONeill wrote:
Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing 2sec prism warp and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon. Warp Prism warp-in got changed in the last patch of the beta, you're just bitching senselessly right now. But as it stands, nerfing pylon overcharge RIGHT NOW will just make Protoss completely unplayable. Protoss macro mechanic got nerfed compared to Z and T mechanics. Collossus nerf killed off our most useful unit at dealing damage to T and Z armies and P didn't get anything to compensate for this (Disruptors are utter trash outside of PvP. 40 second cooldown on a shot that can be dodged easily with decent micro) Economy changes benefited T and Z a lot more. T have the cheapest base units and can get their infrastructure and a decent sized army up much quicker than P, making it a hell of a lot easier to steamroll a Protoss trying to get to the right tech to deal with a large sized Terran army. (Stimmed marines and marauders can easily kill Adepts in the current balance.) The need to expand more and more often is actually really bad for Protoss, unlike T and Z, P cannot split their army to defend multiple places, Protoss units are just too fragile for that. Oh and lets not forget, you nerf warp-prisms too much and leave P to have to use pylons to reinforce? Oh Protoss then have to wait 16 seconds for units to warp in because of the pylon changes making it completely pointless to even invest in a pylon in the first place to reinforce. Protoss is in a bad spot right now, and while I agree the pylon overcharge is really stupid (especially in PvP) you can't just outright remove it right now without addressing some really serious issues that exist for Protoss right now. I disagree with a few points. - T macro mechanic got nerfed, mule was around 20% stronger. - with the ecenomy changes we have to see, Protoss got with Adept a good warpgate unit. - protoss is not in a bad spot right now, the game isn't even released for 2 weeks (I know, the beta was longer, but with huge changes) But I agree with the point that they shouldn't nerf the warpprism. ATM it seems it's the tool for P to move out in the early game and very vital for P all game long. Again a lot of things are heavily unexplored, like the Protoss AoE composition. I see a lot of high level Protoss having really different opinios about the colossus right now.
T can still MULE hammer though, Chronoboost got an efficiency nerf (I can't remember the exact percentage off the top of my head though) and it can't be stacked, it's now slightly slower for Protoss to tech up in the long run.
I disagree with your notion of the Adept being a good warpgate unit. It's good in the early game, and the longer the game progresses the worse it gets. It's not good against Roaches/Ravagers and once a Terran has stim then adepts are just shredded quite quickly. It's in a weird spot currently I think.
Protoss AoE is in a weird spot too, the collossus nerf really had to make us rethink what we need to do, which could be why some of us see Protoss being in a bad spot. AoE is such an important thing in a Protoss army, especially in the lategame. Disruptors are hit and miss, quite literally. Collossus (from my personal experience) are fine up until a large ball of units attacks, at which point the damage nerf really shows. Storm is still a thing, and I tend to lean towards that as an opener in PvT currently just because of how the other AoE options are performing right now.
Protoss is also currently the least represented race in GM and Masters right now (globally at least.) And if we take recent tournaments into account (so Olimoleague, ShoutCraft and the HSC XII qualifiers that are happening currently,) Protoss are dropping out pretty quickly and early on in the tournament. It could be because Protoss haven't figured out what to do in the match-ups yet but it could be because of balance issues. It'll probably remain unclear until the WCS seasons start up again and we see how the numbers look in GSL/SSL and how the Koreans are playing but I bet currently, on ladder there's a lot of all-ins coming from Protoss, probably with adepts and warp prisms.
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On November 20 2015 23:12 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 22:34 JackONeill wrote:
Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing 2sec prism warp and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon. This post confirms my suspicion that a lot of people in these foruns engage in discussions such as this one without even playing the game.
On November 20 2015 23:03 KatatoniK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 22:34 JackONeill wrote:
Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing 2sec prism warp and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon. Warp Prism warp-in got changed in the last patch of the beta, you're just bitching senselessly right now. But as it stands, nerfing pylon overcharge RIGHT NOW will just make Protoss completely unplayable. Protoss macro mechanic got nerfed compared to Z and T mechanics. Collossus nerf killed off our most useful unit at dealing damage to T and Z armies and P didn't get anything to compensate for this (Disruptors are utter trash outside of PvP. 40 second cooldown on a shot that can be dodged easily with decent micro) Economy changes benefited T and Z a lot more. T have the cheapest base units and can get their infrastructure and a decent sized army up much quicker than P, making it a hell of a lot easier to steamroll a Protoss trying to get to the right tech to deal with a large sized Terran army. (Stimmed marines and marauders can easily kill Adepts in the current balance.) The need to expand more and more often is actually really bad for Protoss, unlike T and Z, P cannot split their army to defend multiple places, Protoss units are just too fragile for that. Oh and lets not forget, you nerf warp-prisms too much and leave P to have to use pylons to reinforce? Oh Protoss then have to wait 16 seconds for units to warp in because of the pylon changes making it completely pointless to even invest in a pylon in the first place to reinforce. Protoss is in a bad spot right now, and while I agree the pylon overcharge is really stupid (especially in PvP) you can't just outright remove it right now without addressing some really serious issues that exist for Protoss right now.
My bad I meant the pickup range, not the warpin time*
And I'm not saying just removing the damn overcharge is needed, I'm just stating it's a bullshit ability that's simply a bandaid for bad design.
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On November 20 2015 23:43 KatatoniK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 23:12 apocom wrote:On November 20 2015 23:03 KatatoniK wrote:On November 20 2015 22:34 JackONeill wrote:
Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing 2sec prism warp and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon. Warp Prism warp-in got changed in the last patch of the beta, you're just bitching senselessly right now. But as it stands, nerfing pylon overcharge RIGHT NOW will just make Protoss completely unplayable. Protoss macro mechanic got nerfed compared to Z and T mechanics. Collossus nerf killed off our most useful unit at dealing damage to T and Z armies and P didn't get anything to compensate for this (Disruptors are utter trash outside of PvP. 40 second cooldown on a shot that can be dodged easily with decent micro) Economy changes benefited T and Z a lot more. T have the cheapest base units and can get their infrastructure and a decent sized army up much quicker than P, making it a hell of a lot easier to steamroll a Protoss trying to get to the right tech to deal with a large sized Terran army. (Stimmed marines and marauders can easily kill Adepts in the current balance.) The need to expand more and more often is actually really bad for Protoss, unlike T and Z, P cannot split their army to defend multiple places, Protoss units are just too fragile for that. Oh and lets not forget, you nerf warp-prisms too much and leave P to have to use pylons to reinforce? Oh Protoss then have to wait 16 seconds for units to warp in because of the pylon changes making it completely pointless to even invest in a pylon in the first place to reinforce. Protoss is in a bad spot right now, and while I agree the pylon overcharge is really stupid (especially in PvP) you can't just outright remove it right now without addressing some really serious issues that exist for Protoss right now. I disagree with a few points. - T macro mechanic got nerfed, mule was around 20% stronger. - with the ecenomy changes we have to see, Protoss got with Adept a good warpgate unit. - protoss is not in a bad spot right now, the game isn't even released for 2 weeks (I know, the beta was longer, but with huge changes) But I agree with the point that they shouldn't nerf the warpprism. ATM it seems it's the tool for P to move out in the early game and very vital for P all game long. Again a lot of things are heavily unexplored, like the Protoss AoE composition. I see a lot of high level Protoss having really different opinios about the colossus right now. T can still MULE hammer though, Chronoboost got an efficiency nerf (I can't remember the exact percentage off the top of my head though) and it can't be stacked, it's now slightly slower for Protoss to tech up in the long run. I disagree with your notion of the Adept being a good warpgate unit. It's good in the early game, and the longer the game progresses the worse it gets. It's not good against Roaches/Ravagers and once a Terran has stim then adepts are just shredded quite quickly. It's in a weird spot currently I think. Protoss AoE is in a weird spot too, the collossus nerf really had to make us rethink what we need to do, which could be why some of us see Protoss being in a bad spot. AoE is such an important thing in a Protoss army, especially in the lategame. Disruptors are hit and miss, quite literally. Collossus (from my personal experience) are fine up until a large ball of units attacks, at which point the damage nerf really shows. Storm is still a thing, and I tend to lean towards that as an opener in PvT currently just because of how the other AoE options are performing right now. Protoss is also currently the least represented race in GM and Masters right now (globally at least.) And if we take recent tournaments into account (so Olimoleague, ShoutCraft and the HSC XII qualifiers that are happening currently,) Protoss are dropping out pretty quickly and early on in the tournament. It could be because Protoss haven't figured out what to do in the match-ups yet but it could be because of balance issues. It'll probably remain unclear until the WCS seasons start up again and we see how the numbers look in GSL/SSL and how the Koreans are playing but I bet currently, on ladder there's a lot of all-ins coming from Protoss, probably with adepts and warp prisms.
Terran can still mule hammer, but it's weaker, so it's a nerf.
Hm, maybe my opinion about the Adept is simply because I have a lot of respect for that unit, might be wrong here.
And of course there will be balance issues, that's obvious, and maybe Protoss is in need of a buff, but I think really we can't tell that before GSL/SSL starts (like you said).
My feeling is that Protoss has to adapt more than the other races, because of different reasons.
Destructible forcefields seems to hurt in PvZ, the Colossus nerf hurt in PvT and even pro Protoss players sometimes missmicro the disruptor. The chronoboost hurt the very strong timings Protoss had and don't forget the warpin nerf.
Another point is that many players state that the current mappool is really bad for protoss.
I know so many Protoss that struggled in PvT after the widow mine buff, because they relied on Chargelot/Archon.
It's a really different game now, and we will have to see how things play out. Blizzard will not jump the gun on that, so I think such discussions are somewhat pointless atm. We had seen in the past races really struggling (like I said 3 Terrans out of 32 players in Code S) without instead reaction from Blizzard.
That make suck in that moment, but in the long run, it is better for the game that they don't change stuff because people think after a few weeks that something is op.
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I think simply outright nerfing the warp prims play but also improving gateway play is the way to go.
If we buff the adept (I'd say a dps buff should be the way to go to help deal with marines/lings) allows protoss to expand and defend easily. It also allows for better use of gateway units in mid-late game. Also maybe a shield buff (or nerf revert) if dps proves to be the wrong way.
But it also buffs all-ins cheeses, thats why warp prisms would be nerfed. No need to go overboard warp prism play sucks when you are not the protoss but I get why protoss players like it.
What this nerf is I'm not sure tho, I'd like the warp prism to only be able to warp an maximum of X number with a cooldown the same as the WGs then allow prisms to warp unlimited amount of units when you get some tech (Fleet beacon or TC no upgrade just the building). But thats just me.
This way simply WG play is more viable (with stronger early game adepts) WP all-ins are weaker, but harass is the same (if you are capable of warping say 4 or 6 adepts you can definitively do some damage) and it also helps protoss mid game without having to depend so much in WP.
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This thread went the wrong way real quick. Winter is the only streamer I watch, and the only streamer I've ever subscribed too because he is entertaining and fun to watch. If you don't like him for whatever reason, that is fine, but why come chasing him in here to discuss him?
Anyway, if you guys watched his stream you'll see how he abuses the Warp Prism. Because the Warp Prism can be so far behind the Adepts to pick them up, it is basically allowing Blink micro for Adepts. That makes is really easy to keep Adepts alive and seems especially powerful versus Terran.
So if the Blink all-in was OP versus Terran, this is basically same thing. In time, this is definitely going to be nerfed. Unless the Terran gets a lucky Widow Mine shot off on Warp Prism or something, they can't stop it. Adepts chew up Marines and SCVs, and Marauders aren't great against them either. And since the Warp Prism can pick them up from so far away you can't isolate the Adepts and focus them down one by one. So it is literally the Blink all-in all over again.
I for one, as a Protoss player, are looking to abuse this build to death in revenge for the years I had to face the 1-1-1 over and over.
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Try to abuse it and tell me how it goes.
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This isn't about theory or trying. It is about practice. It has been done.
This is one of those threads that the OP gets to come back later and say "I told ya so" after the nerf.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
Ladder is different from tournament settings, that's the first problem I have.
The second one - Winter says "nerf WP, don't buff anything else, Protoss is fine" when we see that Z/T overtakes most of the latest tournaments. Protoss is considered the weakest but Winter wants them nerfed. Logic is strong with this one.
Obviously Korean Protoss players are worse than Winter since they cannot abuse it so well Unless Winter is GM on Korean ladder and can provide replays against someone meaningful I still think it's not that big deal.
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Why does it matter that ladder is different that tournaments? I play ladder, and I don't want unbalanced strategies on ladder.
The second part is independent of the first. While I disagree with Winter and think Protoss is too weak, the Warp Prism can still be overpowered in the current state. It is very ironic that you made a comment regarding logic, yet failed to see they were two independent thoughts.
On November 21 2015 03:17 deacon.frost wrote:Obviously Korean Protoss players are worse than Winter since they cannot abuse it so well Unless Winter is GM on Korean ladder and can provide replays against someone meaningful I still think it's not that big deal.
I don't even know where to begin with this. But I remember clearly that Destiny was using Infestors abusively long before Korean Zergs were, and had a bunch of showmatches where he beat Korean pros because they didn't know the power of the Infestor.
And do you remember when everyone thought Roaches were terrible in TvZ? Then this guy Stephano showed up... and beat everyone, Koreans included, and re-invented TvZ.
I'm not saying that Winter will re-invent TvP, but I am saying that just because Koreans don't use a build, doesn't mean it is bad and can't be abused. But let's talk about the build itself, how would you counter it?
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You bring up some good points as I feel that i can win about 90% of my pvts with a WP adept cheese all in off 1 base. I never need to scout the terran and can win with rather lazy micro. that all needs to go. It is similar to the widow mine argument that P was essentially forced to prepare for WM play throughout HOTS or it would be an autoloss. Unfortunately if blizz wants protoss to evolve out of a warp prism crutch we would need something in return. Right now I feel that making a warp prism is a necessity since proxy warpins are rather ineffective via pylon. I fear that the warp prism is becoming another bandaid unit which is the last thing we need.
I am just a noob so this idea may be terrible, but what if warp ins were removed from the ccore and GW units were buffed, then you could research warpins from the robo bay that would only apply to the power field of a prism? you could choose to make warp gates but it would have to be the proper amount of WGs to account for harass, until the late game where prism would serve as your mobile proxy, and there would not be any reason to have full warpgates everywhere. there would definitely need to be a fix so that in the lategame you cant just warp in a ton of super powerful t1-t.15 units. maybe nerf the aoe high tier units so that protoss has a bit more of that BW flavor. This would also punish super fast harass cheese as making a prism effective for all inning would require a high investment in tech an research. idk im just a scrub .__.
EDIT: i kind of realize that this proposition only furthers the necessity of the WP crutch, but essentially what im arguing for is that you could go for a straight up GW/twilight style with upgrades in lieu of getting the warp prism if that is your style, or SG, or whatever. it's too early to argue changes anyways, but stronger gw units would lead to removal of other terrible bandaids that we currently deal with (looking at you FF, MSC)
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On November 21 2015 03:17 deacon.frost wrote:Ladder is different from tournament settings, that's the first problem I have. The second one - Winter says "nerf WP, don't buff anything else, Protoss is fine" when we see that Z/T overtakes most of the latest tournaments. Protoss is considered the weakest but Winter wants them nerfed. Logic is strong with this one. Obviously Korean Protoss players are worse than Winter since they cannot abuse it so well Unless Winter is GM on Korean ladder and can provide replays against someone meaningful I still think it's not that big deal.
Most people play Ladder, not tournament. Since they're different, we should ignore tournaments. Am I correct here? Or are you saying should we cater to the 200-odd people that are worried about tournament play instead of the millions buying LotV we want playing ladder?
Okay, so maybe Protoss needs a buff elsewhere. Winter can be wrong. This is a discussion. Ideas are NEVER all or nothing. IF we saw a nerf to WP play, what would you think could be done, and where do you think they need a buff to make up for it? Would that be a better solution than leaving WP play as-is?
Again, you come back to saying some people are less important than others when concerning game play balance. Shouldn't balance be factored in where most play is taking place? And he specifically said it's not imbalanced, it's just limiting options. Options are good. I want to see more play styles and more people playing. End of story.
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Northern Ireland24239 Posts
I'm not sure what you could give Protoss in place of a nerfed Warp Prism, it really feels like a crucial cog of their arsenal and needs to be that strong, notably in conjunction with adepts in trying to slow down Zergs' economies
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On November 22 2015 01:46 mentalmath wrote:I am just a noob so this idea may be terrible, but what if warp ins were removed from the ccore and GW units were buffed, then you could research warpins from the robo bay that would only apply to the power field of a prism? you could choose to make warp gates but it would have to be the proper amount of WGs to account for harass, until the late game where prism would serve as your mobile proxy, and there would not be any reason to have full warpgates everywhere. there would definitely need to be a fix so that in the lategame you cant just warp in a ton of super powerful t1-t.15 units. maybe nerf the aoe high tier units so that protoss has a bit more of that BW flavor. This would also punish super fast harass cheese as making a prism effective for all inning would require a high investment in tech an research. idk im just a scrub .__.
EDIT: i kind of realize that this proposition only furthers the necessity of the WP crutch, but essentially what im arguing for is that you could go for a straight up GW/twilight style with upgrades in lieu of getting the warp prism if that is your style, or SG, or whatever. it's too early to argue changes anyways, but stronger gw units would lead to removal of other terrible bandaids that we currently deal with (looking at you FF, MSC)
I don't know but I really like your idea, would like to see it tested in game^^
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Balancing is tricky because of the warp in mechanics.
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On November 22 2015 05:44 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'm not sure what you could give Protoss in place of a nerfed Warp Prism, it really feels like a crucial cog of their arsenal and needs to be that strong, notably in conjunction with adepts in trying to slow down Zergs' economies
But thats a problem, the fact that they depend so much in WP, its just like the MsC, having all the power of the race concentrated in 1 unit is bad design, when you can spread and control the power game play becomes fun and dynamic, but when all of it depends on wheter or not your 1 unit does it jobs and you win or it doesn't and you lose, its just bad.
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On November 22 2015 05:44 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'm not sure what you could give Protoss in place of a nerfed Warp Prism, it really feels like a crucial cog of their arsenal and needs to be that strong, notably in conjunction with adepts in trying to slow down Zergs' economies
What I'd really like to see is way to get the Stargate involved more. The Oracle is a pretty all or nothing form of harassment, like the Dark Templars to an extent. Or make the Pheonix better at a harassment role.
I remember someone did the math and a Protoss player had to kill an absurd number of drones (like 40+) just to break even with Phoenix harass against a macro Zerg, because the macro Zerg knew that the Protoss spent so much on the Phoenixes and therefore nothing else major was coming so he could just Drone, Drone, Drone and easily replace lost Drones.
On November 22 2015 12:08 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2015 05:44 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'm not sure what you could give Protoss in place of a nerfed Warp Prism, it really feels like a crucial cog of their arsenal and needs to be that strong, notably in conjunction with adepts in trying to slow down Zergs' economies But thats a problem, the fact that they depend so much in WP, its just like the MsC, having all the power of the race concentrated in 1 unit is bad design, when you can spread and control the power game play becomes fun and dynamic, but when all of it depends on wheter or not your 1 unit does it jobs and you win or it doesn't and you lose, its just bad.
Blizzard has always done a relatively poor job with Protoss in this regard. From the Colossus early on (anyone else remember when a 1 base Colossus all-in was viable in all matchups?) to the Sentry ect ect... as you mentioned the MSC is currently in there and the Disruptor I think is going to end up there in PvP which is going to get really old soon.
Be nice if multiple tech trees were viable and Protoss had more options.
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EPT
