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Posted on Bnet as well: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/19891109610
EDIT: First, would like to re title as The EARLY Warp Prism Creates A Mediocre Dynamic In Non Mirrors (this is a more accurate title  ) To start I don't have enough games (a few dozen is a fraction of what would be needed, and all of them would need to be higher level than my own), so I would like to create a discussion on the topic and if changes are ideal on either side. Overall I still feel the game is relatively balanced but that is a different discussion.
DOUBLE EDIT: I am not personally invested in the nature of any changes to the warp prism. I want to create a discussion where it (as a matter of principle as well) can be discussed from the perspectives of those playing today, and potentially those a year from now, and plan to promote many similar discussions in the future. I personally feel today (Nov 19th, 2015) that the warp prism creates a situation many players have trouble dealing with and could potentially be imbalanced in the current day in age. This is something that evolves over time and experience. PLEASE take that into account and don't assume it is made with assumed divine experience or opinion.
I am a somewhat high level player (NA random grandmaster while telling race)
and would like to speak on the warp prism both a protoss and non protoss (zerg is *was* my strongest race and does not factor into this very much). Results of me rushing warp prism in all non mirror protoss matchups: http://imgur.com/94oaU2H
Currently in legacy of the void I feel the early warp prism creates a very one sided dynamic. I would challenge both terran and zerg players to contest me on games the do not either revolve around attacks winning the game prior to early prism attacks or taking inordinate damage and/or revolving a build order around the threat of such attacks.
Personally as a terran, zerg, and protoss (to a much lesser extent) I have experienced the utility and resiliency of the warp prism, and found it not only frustrating, but POTENTIALLY (very much in dispute) imbalanced. I have abused the warp prism in very similar ways in the same matchups I have contested it to the same extent, otherwise I would not be making such a post.
I find that for Terran especially, the Warp Prism limits potential opening build orders to such an extent that Mech oriented builds are very enouraged, though not supported (A Cyclone seems the only way to repel a 2 base warp prism build outright, Polt is the only player with the prowess I've found to repel it without them).
For zerg players this means doing critical damage to a Protoss before they can begin meaningfully harassing with a warp prism (not being forced to spire) or being in a defensive posture until mutas or sufficient defenses are out, which usually means sucking it up and making lurkers and vipers.
Right now the warp prism seems like a shoehorn tool to allow protoss to do early damage,.....and it succeeds. But overall all races (including protoss themselves) means dealing with it early on in a very focused way, and pretty much tailoring their gameplay towards a single unit.
Personally I find it frustrating though relatively balanced, these are my suggestions (one of these would help remidiate the aforementioned issues):
-Units are dropped slower out of a prism
-Units take extra damage warping/dropping out of a prism
-Reduce Warp Prism Speed and/or HP
-Increase Warp Prism Build Time
-Pickup Range active only in phase mode
Right now the warp prism early limits zerg and terran openers and protoss still has plenty of option in those matchups. While I feel TvP and ZvP are still quite close to balanced this is something I would love to see discussed. Thanks for reading.
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Dude, you include (my BLALBALALB in BLALAL is supergood)(my X in Y is succesful)(I tell race)(I'm random)(I play all races)(I know because I know all races). It comes across as arrogant, sorry to say.
That, and your edit in contradicting itself:
EDIT: To start I don't have enough games (a few dozen is a fraction of what would be needed, and all of them would need to be higher level than my own), so I would like to create a discussion on the topic and if changes are ideal on either side. Overall I still feel the game is relatively balanced but that is a different discussion.
Additionally, we are 1 week into the game, these are defensive timings and they require time to be understood and defended well. Add a HORRIFIC map pool to that, and well, aerial harassment is strong. Who would have thought.
*Edit*
Just saw your name. That makes my first couple of comments even more applicable.
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On November 19 2015 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:Dude, you include (my BLALBALALB in BLALAL is supergood)(my X in Y is succesful)(I tell race)(I'm random)(I play all races)(I know because I know all races). It comes across as arrogant, sorry to say. That, and your edit in contradicting itself: Show nested quote +EDIT: To start I don't have enough games (a few dozen is a fraction of what would be needed, and all of them would need to be higher level than my own), so I would like to create a discussion on the topic and if changes are ideal on either side. Overall I still feel the game is relatively balanced but that is a different discussion. Additionally, we are 1 week into the game, these are defensive timings and they require time to be understood and defended well. Add a HORRIFIC map pool to that, and well, aerial harassment is strong. Who would have thought. *Edit* Just saw your name. That makes my first couple of comments even more applicable.
I don't feel it is imbalanced, I am looking to get feedback from more people about it in the same manner the community managers at Blizzcon explicitly directed. I am completely open to other points of view but what other options are there besides discussion?
I tried to articulate my thoughts in the most comprehensive manner possible from a very limited perspective. If everyone kept their perspective to themselves there wouldn't be any progress.
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Hmmmmmmmm I can see why you've come to TL and Battlenet, probably pretty hard to have a discussion with those viewbots huh?
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On November 19 2015 22:05 WinterStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:Dude, you include (my BLALBALALB in BLALAL is supergood)(my X in Y is succesful)(I tell race)(I'm random)(I play all races)(I know because I know all races). It comes across as arrogant, sorry to say. That, and your edit in contradicting itself: EDIT: To start I don't have enough games (a few dozen is a fraction of what would be needed, and all of them would need to be higher level than my own), so I would like to create a discussion on the topic and if changes are ideal on either side. Overall I still feel the game is relatively balanced but that is a different discussion. Additionally, we are 1 week into the game, these are defensive timings and they require time to be understood and defended well. Add a HORRIFIC map pool to that, and well, aerial harassment is strong. Who would have thought. *Edit* Just saw your name. That makes my first couple of comments even more applicable. I don't feel it is imbalanced, I am looking to get feedback from more people about it in the same manner the community managers at Blizzcon explicitly directed. I am completely open to other points of view but what other options are there besides discussion? I tried to articulate my thoughts in the most comprehensive manner possible from a very limited perspective. If everyone kept their perspective to themselves there wouldn't be any progress.
There is no use in discussion this early on. There is nothing to discuss because there are so many options still open and such a defining factor as this terrible map pool at play.
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What does his name have to do with any of this? I am a somewhat high level player (NA random grandmaster while telling race)and would like to speak on the warp prism both a protoss and non protoss (zerg is *was* my strongest race and does not factor into this very much). Results of me rushing warp prism in all non mirror protoss matchups
At the same time, though, I think that the warp prism all-in isn't that unfair. In HOTS you had stuff like the quick roach burrow or speed drilling claw mines. If you didn't scout those, you were kind of dead. If you didn't get detection, you WERE dead. It's the same mechanic here. While I don't like it very much, we should wait for the meta before making judgements.
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On November 19 2015 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:Dude, you include (my BLALBALALB in BLALAL is supergood)(my X in Y is succesful)(I tell race)(I'm random)(I play all races)(I know because I know all races). It comes across as arrogant, sorry to say. That, and your edit in contradicting itself: Show nested quote +EDIT: To start I don't have enough games (a few dozen is a fraction of what would be needed, and all of them would need to be higher level than my own), so I would like to create a discussion on the topic and if changes are ideal on either side. Overall I still feel the game is relatively balanced but that is a different discussion. Additionally, we are 1 week into the game, these are defensive timings and they require time to be understood and defended well. Add a HORRIFIC map pool to that, and well, aerial harassment is strong. Who would have thought. *Edit* Just saw your name. That makes my first couple of comments even more applicable.
I thought OP communicated quite cautiously. It's standard when someone bring up a potential balance issue for people to claim that the OP is a newbie (OP mentions qualifications to address this) and biased (OP addresses this as he/she plays random).
OP also admits the possibility that he/she is wrong and emphasizes wanting a civil discussion on the matter.
Regardless of your personal bias against OP, the post was well-communicated and deserves more respect than you mustered.
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On November 19 2015 22:11 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 22:05 WinterStarcraft wrote:On November 19 2015 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:Dude, you include (my BLALBALALB in BLALAL is supergood)(my X in Y is succesful)(I tell race)(I'm random)(I play all races)(I know because I know all races). It comes across as arrogant, sorry to say. That, and your edit in contradicting itself: EDIT: To start I don't have enough games (a few dozen is a fraction of what would be needed, and all of them would need to be higher level than my own), so I would like to create a discussion on the topic and if changes are ideal on either side. Overall I still feel the game is relatively balanced but that is a different discussion. Additionally, we are 1 week into the game, these are defensive timings and they require time to be understood and defended well. Add a HORRIFIC map pool to that, and well, aerial harassment is strong. Who would have thought. *Edit* Just saw your name. That makes my first couple of comments even more applicable. I don't feel it is imbalanced, I am looking to get feedback from more people about it in the same manner the community managers at Blizzcon explicitly directed. I am completely open to other points of view but what other options are there besides discussion? I tried to articulate my thoughts in the most comprehensive manner possible from a very limited perspective. If everyone kept their perspective to themselves there wouldn't be any progress. There is no use in discussion this early on. There is nothing to discuss because there are so many options still open and such a defining factor as this terrible map pool at play.
So TL's Post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/498719-legacy-of-the-week-ravager is irrelevant to discuss because of how early on in the stage of the game we are? I do agree my post may have been quite biased towards a certain perspective for obvious reasons, but I would like to discuss those reasons in a similar matter. If that is the general consensus here I will phrase my posts more accordingly in the future.
EDIT: I created my post subjectively as opposed to objectively like team liquid. I think there is field for both types of discussions here and wanted to present it.
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So nerfing the warp prism, what type of buff do you suggest for protoss then? You cannot just nerf the prism and leave it like that.
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At the same time, though, I think that the warp prism all-in isn't that unfair. In HOTS you had stuff like the quick roach burrow or speed drilling claw mines. If you didn't scout those, you were kind of dead. If you didn't get detection, you WERE dead. It's the same mechanic here. While I don't like it very much, we should wait for the meta before making judgements.
I would argue that the warp prism is a much less all in or time limited mechanic than thing's like roach burrow (I don't agree speed drilling claw mines were ever a concern). The act of scouting a robo, or even seeing a warp prism requires much more direct response than roach burrow or mines, and forces the player to react for several minutes, as opposed to < 1 required to respond to an attack on a timer like quick roach burrow.
EDIT: I should have phrased my original post to be titled, The EARLY Warp Prism. I feel warp prisms are great tools later in the game and have no issues.
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On November 19 2015 22:23 FreeZEternal wrote:
So nerfing the warp prism, what type of buff do you suggest for protoss then? You cannot just nerf the prism and leave it like that.
I feel that slight nerf to a quick warp prism would not warrant a buff for anything protoss, just an adaption from the players. With that in mind I wouldn't be opposed to an Observer base speed or hp buff to make it not one shottable by ravagers for example, and would encourage more players to focus on scouting.
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You need to keep in mind that those stats are very misleading. Considering the MMR reset, how many of those 14 PvT were played against people close to your level?
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On November 19 2015 22:29 Tiaraju9 wrote:
You need to keep in mind that those stats are very misleading. Considering the MMR reset, how many of those 14 PvT were played against people close to your level?
I have been playing consistently multiple GM level players. Once again I don't consider my stats to be any more than a "foot in the door" when it comes to qualifications, but I honestly believe I have been getting a leg up on players that might have more overall skill because of the concerns I addressed. That is part of the reason I made this post.
EDIT: My Terran stats are also against similar level players for argument's sake.
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Well aren't people assholes nowadays.
I agree with the most important part of your post, while warp prism is (maybe) balanced, it hurts the other races flexibility, its the same thing as the oracle in HotS, it was totally balanced but it was such a threat that it completely destroyed a lot options because a build either had anti-oracle measures or it straight died. Wich is why all terrans builds where either WM drops or 3 rax in TvP.
Its the same here, will people find ways to defend in timely manner warp prism builds? yes I'm certain they will, but... Do we REALLY want to have all builds be the same because you either have that ONE thing that stops it or you just die? I'm sure most protoss players do, like in HotS there where even builds where protoss didn't scout at all, but do we really want that again?
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On November 19 2015 22:38 Lexender wrote:
Well aren't people assholes nowadays.
I agree with the most important part of your post, while warp prism is (maybe) balanced, it hurts the other races flexibility, its the same thing as the oracle in HotS, it was totally balanced but it was such a threat that it completely destroyed a lot options because a build either had anti-oracle measures or it straight died. Wich is why all terrans builds where either WM drops or 3 rax in TvP.
Its the same here, will people find ways to defend in timely manner warp prism builds? yes I'm certain they will, but... Do we REALLY want to have all builds be the same because you either have that ONE thing that stops it or you just die? I'm sure most protoss players do, like in HotS there where even builds where protoss didn't scout at all, do we really want that again?
I don't think we have come far enough in LOTV to make that decision yet, but it is something over the next couple weeks I personally have investment in, and hope is valid enough Blizzard considers as the "meta" develops.
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beep boop
User was warned for this post
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things 
Anyway, it's also fun when Winter states that nerfing WP is OK, because Protoss is good with nerfed WP. I, personally, will trust more these 3 named when they say Protoss is fucked than believing to somehow like Winter. (it's not about viewbotting and the fact he lied before but the fact that these 3 were pro players)
(though they were mostly debating PvZ, Geoff said that PvT is kinda OKish even though P is on the weak side)
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On November 19 2015 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:Dude, you include (my BLALBALALB in BLALAL is supergood)(my X in Y is succesful)(I tell race)(I'm random)(I play all races)(I know because I know all races). It comes across as arrogant, sorry to say. That, and your edit in contradicting itself: Show nested quote +EDIT: To start I don't have enough games (a few dozen is a fraction of what would be needed, and all of them would need to be higher level than my own), so I would like to create a discussion on the topic and if changes are ideal on either side. Overall I still feel the game is relatively balanced but that is a different discussion. Additionally, we are 1 week into the game, these are defensive timings and they require time to be understood and defended well. Add a HORRIFIC map pool to that, and well, aerial harassment is strong. Who would have thought. *Edit* Just saw your name. That makes my first couple of comments even more applicable.
The post is actually pretty well thought out. A backstory of him playing all races is just him telling the reader how it feels on terran side, toss and zerg.
I am not as high a league but the speed at the which the warp prism can reach the opposing base and with the huge pickup radius, it does feel pretty difficult to play against without building turrets all over your base. The investment is huge.
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If it is the speed at which it comes out that you are concerned with, an upgrade would solve it. Do you think that a Pick-Up-Range upgrade on the Robotics Support Bay could be a potential solution?
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On November 19 2015 23:23 RoomOfMush wrote:
If it is the speed at which it comes out that you are concerned with, an upgrade would solve it. Do you think that a Pick-Up-Range upgrade on the Robotics Support Bay could be a potential solution?
I think a much more subtle change like a bnet user suggest of required pickup range to only be active when in phase mode could be more than enough to shift the dynamic.
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EPT
