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On November 20 2015 04:00 apocom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 03:39 deacon.frost wrote:On November 20 2015 03:25 apocom wrote:Terran was pigeonholed into two builds for a large part of the hots era (3rax and 1-1-1 wm drop) just because the oracle exist, so I don't see a problem here if we shouldn't now have even less build diversity (1-1-1). But generally speaking, I think it is way too early to tell how the metagame will shape. So many (former) pros and other players are experimenting right now and the timings are unknown, it's really hard to tell how things will work out. Anyone remember how long Blizzard has let us defend against 2base blink all in early 2014 before they changed the map pool, because they wanted the players to figure out the best response. On November 19 2015 23:02 deacon.frost wrote:
Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things TBH, I listen more to a random player instead to former pros that are too bad to affect the meta game, but that is just me. And everyone playing a single race is biased, even korean top pros. That is your choice, but I was reacting to the part about "how about we nerf WP and do not give anything in return, Protoss players will adapt!" which is BS to me. Since it was right above my post i was not using "Quote" button. But maybe I am just biased against Winter because I believed him before and was burned  Not sure. Anyway, we do not have enough time. Seriously, in a month or so Proleague starts and in 2 months WCS/GSL/SSL starts! It is time to stop jerking around and really start doing things. Too many people is relying on SC2 as the source of their income, numbers in Korea were growing, we cannot lose this because we will be changing things during leagues... I think that the argument "we have just a week behind us, lets wait" is bad. It is true but we do not have enough time, so Blizzard should start doing things. Why should Blizzard should start doing things now? Nobody expect that the game is perfectly balanced right now, but we have still no metagame. Many players still play HotS instead of LotV.
What ? Every top players are playing LotV and we do have a strong metagame (not for all MUs) for almost 1 month now.
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On November 20 2015 07:51 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 04:00 apocom wrote:On November 20 2015 03:39 deacon.frost wrote:On November 20 2015 03:25 apocom wrote:Terran was pigeonholed into two builds for a large part of the hots era (3rax and 1-1-1 wm drop) just because the oracle exist, so I don't see a problem here if we shouldn't now have even less build diversity (1-1-1). But generally speaking, I think it is way too early to tell how the metagame will shape. So many (former) pros and other players are experimenting right now and the timings are unknown, it's really hard to tell how things will work out. Anyone remember how long Blizzard has let us defend against 2base blink all in early 2014 before they changed the map pool, because they wanted the players to figure out the best response. On November 19 2015 23:02 deacon.frost wrote:
Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things TBH, I listen more to a random player instead to former pros that are too bad to affect the meta game, but that is just me. And everyone playing a single race is biased, even korean top pros. That is your choice, but I was reacting to the part about "how about we nerf WP and do not give anything in return, Protoss players will adapt!" which is BS to me. Since it was right above my post i was not using "Quote" button. But maybe I am just biased against Winter because I believed him before and was burned Not sure. Anyway, we do not have enough time. Seriously, in a month or so Proleague starts and in 2 months WCS/GSL/SSL starts! It is time to stop jerking around and really start doing things. Too many people is relying on SC2 as the source of their income, numbers in Korea were growing, we cannot lose this because we will be changing things during leagues... I think that the argument "we have just a week behind us, lets wait" is bad. It is true but we do not have enough time, so Blizzard should start doing things. Why should Blizzard should start doing things now? Nobody expect that the game is perfectly balanced right now, but we have still no metagame. Many players still play HotS instead of LotV. What ? Every top players are playing LotV and we do have a strong metagame (not for all MUs) for almost 1 month now.
With playing HotS I've meant that the meta is still strong based on HotS and I've the feeling that a lot of units and changes are not really explored.
I'm curious how Dreamhack next week will play out. I doubt that metagame will be that strong, but we will see.
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Early warp prism is an issue imo but it is a big investment and probably would get meta out eventually.
But in longer games it perfectly fine, it creates dynamic in terms of controlling the enemy army movement and positioning
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On November 20 2015 04:00 apocom wrote:
Personally I don't expect that Blizzard will change much in the next half year, except something is obviously OP.
I agree with apocom that changes are unlikely here.
Nonetheless, if we're going to talk about the warp-prism as a unit, then I think that the only possible problem it might have is early aggression with low-risk, high-reward warp-ins.
Instead of the opponent having to respond in 5 hots seconds ... I'd expect that the early warp-prism warp in things more slowly, but be capable of carrying more stuff.
Not saying these numbers are exactly balanced ... but if Blizzard were to re-tool the warp-prism to change its impact in the early game, I'd prefer something like the following over the options in the OP:
- Warp-prism cargo capacity increased (16 instead of 8)
- Warp-prisms warp-in units at the unpowered pylon speed (16 HotS seconds)
- An upgrade is unlocked by robo bay that allows individual warp prisms to upgrade to (5 HotS seconds) powered pylon speed (say 75 / 75 and 90 seconds?)
So, early game Protoss would have to risk units in the prism to do drops (and have room to do so), while still having the capability to punish a player failing to respond at all ... and late-game, they still get the capability to warp-in quickly, but at an actual increased cost per individual warp-prism. It also doesn't sacrifice any of the interesting micro that can be pulled off by using warp-prism pick-up range.
I think this kind of trade-off is much more interesting than simply reducing the capability of the warp-prism all-game-long.
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not to be rude but actually i feel its too early to say this is bad or not...even if you have a couple of games..game still is new.
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On November 20 2015 10:19 Edowyth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 04:00 apocom wrote:
Personally I don't expect that Blizzard will change much in the next half year, except something is obviously OP.
I agree with apocom that changes are unlikely here. Nonetheless, if we're going to talk about the warp-prism as a unit, then I think that the only possible problem it might have is early aggression with low-risk, high-reward warp-ins. Instead of the opponent having to respond in 5 hots seconds ... I'd expect that the early warp-prism warp in things more slowly, but be capable of carrying more stuff. Not saying these numbers are exactly balanced ... but if Blizzard were to re-tool the warp-prism to change its impact in the early game, I'd prefer something like the following over the options in the OP: - Warp-prism cargo capacity increased (16 instead of 8) - Warp-prisms warp-in units at the unpowered pylon speed (16 HotS seconds) - An upgrade is unlocked by robo bay that allows individual warp prisms to upgrade to (5 HotS seconds) powered pylon speed (say 75 / 75 and 90 seconds?) So, early game Protoss would have to risk units in the prism to do drops (and have room to do so), while still having the capability to punish a player failing to respond at all ... and late-game, they still get the capability to warp-in quickly, but at an actual increased cost per individual warp-prism. It also doesn't sacrifice any of the interesting micro that can be pulled off by using warp-prism pick-up range. I think this kind of trade-off is much more interesting than simply reducing the capability of the warp-prism all-game-long.
The issue with these suggestions, and Winter's original post is that the problem that we are trying to reduce is not exactly clear.
Is the issue. A. Warp Prism All-ins still too strong or B. Warp Prism harass with adepts
Because if you are trying to 'fix' A with suggestions like "Warp-prism cargo capacity increased (16 instead of 8)" and Nerfing Warp-ins you are exacerbating problem B.
The issue is, it's not exactly just the Warp Prism that creates the arguably bad dynamic. It's the synergy with the adept. If the adept didn't exist no other gateway unit really would create this problem.
From my perspective I do not believe the straight up warping into their base is that bad of a problem outside of a dirty 1 base proxy 6gaterobo build, where it definitely seems to straight up kill a lot of Terran.
So from the impression that Winter's first post and solutions was more about the threat of high economic damage directly from dropping 4 adepts from a slippery warp prism causing Terran solely having to open cyclone is the issue. So let's take Winter's suggestions
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1. Units are dropped slower out of a prism
2. Units take extra damage warping/dropping out of a prism
3. Reduce Warp Prism Speed and/or HP
4. Increase Warp Prism Build Time
5. Pickup Range active only in phase mode
1. How slow would it have to be to successfully kerb the issue, without making it clunky?
2. It would probably affect way too many things outside of the presented issue to make sense(At least the dropping part)
3. Would make the prism less slippery, but HP reduction would hurt the prism lategame. Terran's medivac is able to boost through defenses and still able to get damage done late game against a base with static defenses. If you were to lower the prism health, 1-2 turrets completely shuts it down even more than it currently does.
4. It could work, 10-20seconds build time? Is it enough that Terran could put up a better defense? Maybe, in some situations. The main issue is that Robo time is already so important, it feels like adding more time would be really punishing certain situations.
5. Good idea that could work, but... I so enjoy using the prism to micro with the army. I think the prism in it's current form is one of the funnest changes in LoTV.
Maybe a good idea is to actually combine one of these suggestions with the Warp Prism speed upgrade(instead of making more upgrades for it which seems a bit silly). Making the Bay upgrade more desirable and used and not actually nerfing the prism outside of early game is best.
Perhaps the one that makes the most sense is nerfing the pickup range and adding it to the Speed upgrade.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 20 2015 04:00 apocom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 03:39 deacon.frost wrote:On November 20 2015 03:25 apocom wrote:Terran was pigeonholed into two builds for a large part of the hots era (3rax and 1-1-1 wm drop) just because the oracle exist, so I don't see a problem here if we shouldn't now have even less build diversity (1-1-1). But generally speaking, I think it is way too early to tell how the metagame will shape. So many (former) pros and other players are experimenting right now and the timings are unknown, it's really hard to tell how things will work out. Anyone remember how long Blizzard has let us defend against 2base blink all in early 2014 before they changed the map pool, because they wanted the players to figure out the best response. On November 19 2015 23:02 deacon.frost wrote:
Ehm, I want to note that the last night there was the Late Game show. There was Incontrol, Morrow and Destiny. The all kinda agreed that Protoss is weak. It is very fun when former pros(Not sure about Morrow's state) declare this and then someone from TL states that it's too early to state things TBH, I listen more to a random player instead to former pros that are too bad to affect the meta game, but that is just me. And everyone playing a single race is biased, even korean top pros. That is your choice, but I was reacting to the part about "how about we nerf WP and do not give anything in return, Protoss players will adapt!" which is BS to me. Since it was right above my post i was not using "Quote" button. But maybe I am just biased against Winter because I believed him before and was burned Not sure. Anyway, we do not have enough time. Seriously, in a month or so Proleague starts and in 2 months WCS/GSL/SSL starts! It is time to stop jerking around and really start doing things. Too many people is relying on SC2 as the source of their income, numbers in Korea were growing, we cannot lose this because we will be changing things during leagues... I think that the argument "we have just a week behind us, lets wait" is bad. It is true but we do not have enough time, so Blizzard should start doing things. Why should Blizzard should start doing things now? Nobody expect that the game is perfectly balanced right now, but we have still no metagame. Many players still play HotS instead of LotV. When we had 3 terrans out of 32 players in Code S, with 16 protoss, Incontrol told us how good the game was balanced. Maybe I'm still a bit salty about this, but for me he is not the guy to listen. Personally I don't expect that Blizzard will change much in the next half year, except something is obviously OP.
Because it was about maps. When the map begs to use blink all in and you are about to win money why wouldn't you use it? MSC vision range & map pool was the biggest problem back then. Also when we had 5 Protoss out of 32 players in Code S - Terran players "were just better", this is eternal idiotic discussion.
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wow amazing
User was temp banned for this post.
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Thats funny, i thought the same of you as a streamer. Sadly, it doesnt seem to bother people. Both will stay and annoy people
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On November 20 2015 11:14 Beliskner wrote:
The issue with these suggestions, and Winter's original post is that the problem that we are trying to reduce is not exactly clear.
Is the issue. A. Warp Prism All-ins still too strong or B. Warp Prism harass with adepts
Because if you are trying to 'fix' A with suggestions like "Warp-prism cargo capacity increased (16 instead of 8)" and Nerfing Warp-ins you are exacerbating problem B.
The issue is, it's not exactly just the Warp Prism that creates the arguably bad dynamic. It's the synergy with the adept. If the adept didn't exist no other gateway unit really would create this problem.
From my perspective I do not believe the straight up warping into their base is that bad of a problem outside of a dirty 1 base proxy 6gaterobo build, where it definitely seems to straight up kill a lot of Terran.
So from the impression that Winter's first post and solutions was more about the threat of high economic damage directly from dropping 4 adepts from a slippery warp prism causing Terran solely having to open cyclone is the issue. So let's take Winter's suggestions
It surprises me that someone would say this. I haven't seen anyone struggle with just 4 adepts from a prism (at least, not since they were nerfed in beta). It's the warp-ins that opponents always seem to struggle to deal with.
I'd like to stress that I don't really see the problems the OP is mentioning, which is why my post starts out so hesitant. My suggestion, therefore, is based purely off of design concerns: No matter what Blizzard does, I'd really like to continue seeing warp-prism usage early, mid, and late game -- all game long.
I think that, if warp-in speed or even just adepts are giving an opponent problems early, a change should be made to delay the power until later -- not simply to reduce that power. Warp prisms do not appear overly powerful in the late-game to me.
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If cyclone is really an effective way to beat this opening, wheres the problem?
IF a strategy demands a specific answer, and people dont know about it yet - its their problem.
When protoss played against 1-1-1, they couldnt win by teching templar or going for a greedy third.
When you get cannonrushed, you cant win by making ultralisks, hydras, lurkers, roaches etc.
A build is overpowered when the perfect response still ends with you behind, or the perfect resonse is too difficult in comparison. Neither apply here.
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I see no problem with the warp prism, as it stands terrans and zergs are really greedy with their expansions and there should be a way to punish that else you are just going to see them sweep the games away like usual in mid to late game. I also have seen the warp prism deflected many times and not by cyclones..
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Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing ranged prism pickup and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon.
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On November 20 2015 22:34 JackONeill wrote:
Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing 2sec prism warp and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon.
Warp Prism warp-in got changed in the last patch of the beta, you're just bitching senselessly right now. But as it stands, nerfing pylon overcharge RIGHT NOW will just make Protoss completely unplayable.
Protoss macro mechanic got nerfed compared to Z and T mechanics.
Collossus nerf killed off our most useful unit at dealing damage to T and Z armies and P didn't get anything to compensate for this (Disruptors are utter trash outside of PvP. 40 second cooldown on a shot that can be dodged easily with decent micro)
Economy changes benefited T and Z a lot more. T have the cheapest base units and can get their infrastructure and a decent sized army up much quicker than P, making it a hell of a lot easier to steamroll a Protoss trying to get to the right tech to deal with a large sized Terran army. (Stimmed marines and marauders can easily kill Adepts in the current balance.)
The need to expand more and more often is actually really bad for Protoss, unlike T and Z, P cannot split their army to defend multiple places, Protoss units are just too fragile for that.
Oh and lets not forget, you nerf warp-prisms too much and leave P to have to use pylons to reinforce? Oh Protoss then have to wait 16 seconds for units to warp in because of the pylon changes making it completely pointless to even invest in a pylon in the first place to reinforce.
Protoss is in a bad spot right now, and while I agree the pylon overcharge is really stupid (especially in PvP) you can't just outright remove it right now without addressing some really serious issues that exist for Protoss right now.
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I've been struggling a lot against warp prism play, can anybody give me any suggestions in dealing with them? It's usually the typical 4 adept+Warp ins, which I feel is guaranteed to do a significant amount of damage, I don't really see any unit that can help deal with it outside of trying to dice roll with a couple of widow mines. I'm playing at a diamond level so admittedly I'm a little lost on what its actually costing protoss and what the opponent could be doing at base, but it seems to take up so much attention and get away without any serious risk because of the speed and distance pick-ups.
I haven't played against any disruptor warp prism drops, but I can't imagine being able to respond to that if a decent micro player can do it, because you really need some intense reaction time to counter something like that.
I've been losing a significant amount of my TvP's but I think it's because I think I am basing my play off of old style WoL and HoTS where the terran has to out-expand the protoss throughout the match-up.
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On November 20 2015 22:34 JackONeill wrote:
Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing 2sec prism warp and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon.
This post confirms my suspicion that a lot of people in these foruns engage in discussions such as this one without even playing the game.
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On November 20 2015 23:03 KatatoniK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 22:34 JackONeill wrote:
Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing 2sec prism warp and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon. Warp Prism warp-in got changed in the last patch of the beta, you're just bitching senselessly right now. But as it stands, nerfing pylon overcharge RIGHT NOW will just make Protoss completely unplayable. Protoss macro mechanic got nerfed compared to Z and T mechanics. Collossus nerf killed off our most useful unit at dealing damage to T and Z armies and P didn't get anything to compensate for this (Disruptors are utter trash outside of PvP. 40 second cooldown on a shot that can be dodged easily with decent micro) Economy changes benefited T and Z a lot more. T have the cheapest base units and can get their infrastructure and a decent sized army up much quicker than P, making it a hell of a lot easier to steamroll a Protoss trying to get to the right tech to deal with a large sized Terran army. (Stimmed marines and marauders can easily kill Adepts in the current balance.) The need to expand more and more often is actually really bad for Protoss, unlike T and Z, P cannot split their army to defend multiple places, Protoss units are just too fragile for that. Oh and lets not forget, you nerf warp-prisms too much and leave P to have to use pylons to reinforce? Oh Protoss then have to wait 16 seconds for units to warp in because of the pylon changes making it completely pointless to even invest in a pylon in the first place to reinforce. Protoss is in a bad spot right now, and while I agree the pylon overcharge is really stupid (especially in PvP) you can't just outright remove it right now without addressing some really serious issues that exist for Protoss right now.
I disagree with a few points.
- T macro mechanic got nerfed, mule was around 20% stronger.
- with the ecenomy changes we have to see, Protoss got with Adept a good warpgate unit.
- protoss is not in a bad spot right now, the game isn't even released for 2 weeks (I know, the beta was longer, but with huge changes)
But I agree with the point that they shouldn't nerf the warpprism. ATM it seems it's the tool for P to move out in the early game and very vital for P all game long.
Again a lot of things are heavily unexplored, like the Protoss AoE composition. I see a lot of high level Protoss having really different opinios about the colossus right now.
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On November 20 2015 23:12 apocom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 23:03 KatatoniK wrote:On November 20 2015 22:34 JackONeill wrote:
Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing 2sec prism warp and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon. Warp Prism warp-in got changed in the last patch of the beta, you're just bitching senselessly right now. But as it stands, nerfing pylon overcharge RIGHT NOW will just make Protoss completely unplayable. Protoss macro mechanic got nerfed compared to Z and T mechanics. Collossus nerf killed off our most useful unit at dealing damage to T and Z armies and P didn't get anything to compensate for this (Disruptors are utter trash outside of PvP. 40 second cooldown on a shot that can be dodged easily with decent micro) Economy changes benefited T and Z a lot more. T have the cheapest base units and can get their infrastructure and a decent sized army up much quicker than P, making it a hell of a lot easier to steamroll a Protoss trying to get to the right tech to deal with a large sized Terran army. (Stimmed marines and marauders can easily kill Adepts in the current balance.) The need to expand more and more often is actually really bad for Protoss, unlike T and Z, P cannot split their army to defend multiple places, Protoss units are just too fragile for that. Oh and lets not forget, you nerf warp-prisms too much and leave P to have to use pylons to reinforce? Oh Protoss then have to wait 16 seconds for units to warp in because of the pylon changes making it completely pointless to even invest in a pylon in the first place to reinforce. Protoss is in a bad spot right now, and while I agree the pylon overcharge is really stupid (especially in PvP) you can't just outright remove it right now without addressing some really serious issues that exist for Protoss right now. I disagree with a few points. - T macro mechanic got nerfed, mule was around 20% stronger. - with the ecenomy changes we have to see, Protoss got with Adept a good warpgate unit. - protoss is not in a bad spot right now, the game isn't even released for 2 weeks (I know, the beta was longer, but with huge changes) But I agree with the point that they shouldn't nerf the warpprism. ATM it seems it's the tool for P to move out in the early game and very vital for P all game long. Again a lot of things are heavily unexplored, like the Protoss AoE composition. I see a lot of high level Protoss having really different opinios about the colossus right now.
I think most players agree the Colossus is worthless. The discussion seems to revolve around Disruptors or HTs, and how to deal with enemies that split well enough because you lack consistent splash.
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Parting still uses Colossus very well. I wouldn't count them out just yet.
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On November 20 2015 23:12 apocom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 23:03 KatatoniK wrote:On November 20 2015 22:34 JackONeill wrote:
Well each early expansion has its load of protoss bullshit that just can't be in the game, LOTV is no exception.
Question is how long is Blizzard going to take to remove the f***ing 2sec prism warp and the ridiculous 30 dmg photon canon on pylon. Warp Prism warp-in got changed in the last patch of the beta, you're just bitching senselessly right now. But as it stands, nerfing pylon overcharge RIGHT NOW will just make Protoss completely unplayable. Protoss macro mechanic got nerfed compared to Z and T mechanics. Collossus nerf killed off our most useful unit at dealing damage to T and Z armies and P didn't get anything to compensate for this (Disruptors are utter trash outside of PvP. 40 second cooldown on a shot that can be dodged easily with decent micro) Economy changes benefited T and Z a lot more. T have the cheapest base units and can get their infrastructure and a decent sized army up much quicker than P, making it a hell of a lot easier to steamroll a Protoss trying to get to the right tech to deal with a large sized Terran army. (Stimmed marines and marauders can easily kill Adepts in the current balance.) The need to expand more and more often is actually really bad for Protoss, unlike T and Z, P cannot split their army to defend multiple places, Protoss units are just too fragile for that. Oh and lets not forget, you nerf warp-prisms too much and leave P to have to use pylons to reinforce? Oh Protoss then have to wait 16 seconds for units to warp in because of the pylon changes making it completely pointless to even invest in a pylon in the first place to reinforce. Protoss is in a bad spot right now, and while I agree the pylon overcharge is really stupid (especially in PvP) you can't just outright remove it right now without addressing some really serious issues that exist for Protoss right now. I disagree with a few points. - T macro mechanic got nerfed, mule was around 20% stronger. - with the ecenomy changes we have to see, Protoss got with Adept a good warpgate unit. - protoss is not in a bad spot right now, the game isn't even released for 2 weeks (I know, the beta was longer, but with huge changes) But I agree with the point that they shouldn't nerf the warpprism. ATM it seems it's the tool for P to move out in the early game and very vital for P all game long. Again a lot of things are heavily unexplored, like the Protoss AoE composition. I see a lot of high level Protoss having really different opinios about the colossus right now.
T can still MULE hammer though, Chronoboost got an efficiency nerf (I can't remember the exact percentage off the top of my head though) and it can't be stacked, it's now slightly slower for Protoss to tech up in the long run.
I disagree with your notion of the Adept being a good warpgate unit. It's good in the early game, and the longer the game progresses the worse it gets. It's not good against Roaches/Ravagers and once a Terran has stim then adepts are just shredded quite quickly. It's in a weird spot currently I think.
Protoss AoE is in a weird spot too, the collossus nerf really had to make us rethink what we need to do, which could be why some of us see Protoss being in a bad spot. AoE is such an important thing in a Protoss army, especially in the lategame. Disruptors are hit and miss, quite literally. Collossus (from my personal experience) are fine up until a large ball of units attacks, at which point the damage nerf really shows. Storm is still a thing, and I tend to lean towards that as an opener in PvT currently just because of how the other AoE options are performing right now.
Protoss is also currently the least represented race in GM and Masters right now (globally at least.) And if we take recent tournaments into account (so Olimoleague, ShoutCraft and the HSC XII qualifiers that are happening currently,) Protoss are dropping out pretty quickly and early on in the tournament. It could be because Protoss haven't figured out what to do in the match-ups yet but it could be because of balance issues. It'll probably remain unclear until the WCS seasons start up again and we see how the numbers look in GSL/SSL and how the Koreans are playing but I bet currently, on ladder there's a lot of all-ins coming from Protoss, probably with adepts and warp prisms.
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EPT
