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Skytoss seems to be the cause of a lot of strife among many players. I will argue a point considered by few: that skytoss should stay in the game, and has it's own distinct beauty.
Skytoss is similar to certain things such as, Marth in Melee, Caitlyn in League, and Mech: in the sense that they are easy to use at a low-mid level, but become very hard at a high level. Similarly to marth, skytoss is very simple to use, has very exploitable strengths at a low level and is hard to play against without a solid understanding of the game and its mechanics. At a low level, all that needs to be done with skytoss is defend, wait for a super-strong army with voids, carriers and templar (archons, oracles and tempest for support) and then push out. The strengths are super-easy to exploit and hard for lower-league people to play against, like a marth spamming forward smashes and tilts. But the thing is that, although marth is easy at a low level, he becomes very hard at a high level. you will hear this from just about every top player, and just look: there aren't that many marth players at a high level, despite him being the 3rd best in the game and having an even or advantageous matchup vs every character (including spacies), save for sheik and possibly yoshi. So what makes marth so hard? Although Marth isn't even close to being as technically demanding as fox, falco, falcon or yoshi (part of why hes easy at a low level), hes hard because players exploit his weaknesses so well and he requires an incredible amount of precision and practice to keep up with the competition. Consider Armada's peach vs PPMD's marth. Armada would kill PP at around 80%, and PP would kill peach at around 150-200% each stock, and despite the amount of work marth has to do, it was an even matchup. Marth has to play so precisely and patiently and not mess up. He doesn't have quick, low lag kill move like many other characters, and must rely on his long range to out-do their enemy.
I believe skytoss is similar: that it will remain very easy to use against low-mid levelers, at a masters-gm level, it will be hard to use because it's weaknesses are so exploitable and it will require a great amount of control, precision and decision making to use. Against zerg, since you need to invest so much into carriers, you dont have much money for defense. As such, securing bases beyond your third becomes difficult, but if you dont, you're gonna get overwhelmed by hydras, corruptors, vipers and ultras if you just turtle on 3 bases. How are you supposed to defend the onslaught of attacks that a zerg can throw at you? Crackling runbys demolish unupgraded gateway units and wont die to a few split-up carriers at each base, and like I said, if you don't get 4 bases you're gonna lose to a zerg army since youre gonna be behind. Even then, the skytoss army doesn't really beat and end-game zerg, so how do you win as skytoss? In theory it sounds impossible, but you need every move to count, and everything to be positioned perfectly or else you die. Although very different to other playstyles, it doesn't mean its bad. I just demolished a skytoss player on bridgehead and he couldnt do anything. I counter-attacked and killed 3 bases, and it felt like he was so powerless. Skytoss might be easy to attack with, but defending with it is a bit trickier. I'm not sure how skytoss does on other matchups.
I'm probably gonna get a lot of hate for this, but I don't see it being nerfed anytime soon so we'll see how things really play out.
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I don't think anyone thinks skytoss should be removed. Build diversity is something that everyone can agree on and I don't think any player would argue against mech, bio, skyterran, gateway, robo, skytoss, roach/hydra, muta/ling, etc., being viable.
I think the complaints right now are due to this, which struck out in your post to me:
On October 10 2015 12:11 DilemaH wrote:
Even then, the skytoss army doesn't really beat and end-game zerg, so how do you win as skytoss?
How so? Endgame toss army is absolutely unbeatable by Zerg and the race in general struggles with air deathballs. So it's not that people are against skytoss, it's just that zerg has no way to trade resources efficiently or beat that perfect air comp toss can achieve.
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Greedy skytoss is extremly vulnerable to ovi drops cos you can't defend 3 bases with 1 single Msc ( map depend of course).
Those small ling squad can shred probes quickly and it doesn't cost z that much to say the least.
Corruptor + spore +viper seems a reasonable answer from Z and i think skytoss will disapear before the release (expect a nerf here).
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Even Huk knows that mass carriers is broken, sky Toss should be viabile but not broken
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On October 10 2015 12:19 phfantunes wrote:I don't think anyone thinks skytoss should be removed. Build diversity is something that everyone can agree on and I don't think any player would argue against mech, bio, skyterran, gateway, robo, skytoss, roach/hydra, muta/ling, etc., being viable. I think the complaints right now are due to this, which struck out in your post to me: Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 12:11 DilemaH wrote:
Even then, the skytoss army doesn't really beat and end-game zerg, so how do you win as skytoss? How so? Endgame toss army is absolutely unbeatable by Zerg and the race in general struggles with air deathballs. So it's not that people are against skytoss, it's just that zerg has no way to trade resources efficiently or beat that perfect air comp toss can achieve.
This made me laugh ^^ Abduct ~('.'~)
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On October 10 2015 12:19 phfantunes wrote:
How so? Endgame toss army is absolutely unbeatable by Zerg and the race in general struggles with air deathballs. So it's not that people are against skytoss, it's just that zerg has no way to trade resources efficiently or beat that perfect air comp toss can achieve.
I think its actually fairly even if plaayed right. zerg might lose a straightup fight, but with the AOE of ravagers, fungal and parasitic bombs, combined with ultras to zone-out the templar (which cant be killed by anything) and hydras and corruptors for supporting damage, its much more even than it seems.
EDIT: Plus zerg has remaxes
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it was fine but the carrier build time decrease gives less of room to maneuver before the critical number of if hits. Once it gets rolling, its hard to stop
combine it with early defensive tools and adepts makes it really hard to deal with. Carrier build time should really be upped a little.
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On October 10 2015 12:33 DilemaH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 12:19 phfantunes wrote:
How so? Endgame toss army is absolutely unbeatable by Zerg and the race in general struggles with air deathballs. So it's not that people are against skytoss, it's just that zerg has no way to trade resources efficiently or beat that perfect air comp toss can achieve. I think its actually fairly even if plaayed right. zerg might lose a straightup fight, but with the AOE of ravagers, fungal and parasitic bombs, combined with ultras to zone-out the templar (which cant be killed by anything) and hydras and corruptors for supporting damage, its much more even than it seems. EDIT: Plus zerg has remaxes
issue is zerg need so many tech paths and alot of gas for an army like that. toss can reach it quicker with carriers and if zerg doesnt have the units its over.
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On October 10 2015 12:54 A_Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 12:33 DilemaH wrote:On October 10 2015 12:19 phfantunes wrote:
How so? Endgame toss army is absolutely unbeatable by Zerg and the race in general struggles with air deathballs. So it's not that people are against skytoss, it's just that zerg has no way to trade resources efficiently or beat that perfect air comp toss can achieve. I think its actually fairly even if plaayed right. zerg might lose a straightup fight, but with the AOE of ravagers, fungal and parasitic bombs, combined with ultras to zone-out the templar (which cant be killed by anything) and hydras and corruptors for supporting damage, its much more even than it seems. EDIT: Plus zerg has remaxes issue is zerg need so many tech paths and alot of gas for an army like that. toss can reach it quicker with carriers and if zerg doesnt have the units its over.
And that isn't really a bad thing if protoss has this late-game timing push since they're so vulnerable early on. If zerg can win the game before that timing, or injure protoss enough that they reach their end game when protoss has their lategame, then thats well played from the zerg.
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On October 10 2015 13:41 DilemaH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 12:54 A_Scarecrow wrote:On October 10 2015 12:33 DilemaH wrote:On October 10 2015 12:19 phfantunes wrote:
How so? Endgame toss army is absolutely unbeatable by Zerg and the race in general struggles with air deathballs. So it's not that people are against skytoss, it's just that zerg has no way to trade resources efficiently or beat that perfect air comp toss can achieve. I think its actually fairly even if plaayed right. zerg might lose a straightup fight, but with the AOE of ravagers, fungal and parasitic bombs, combined with ultras to zone-out the templar (which cant be killed by anything) and hydras and corruptors for supporting damage, its much more even than it seems. EDIT: Plus zerg has remaxes issue is zerg need so many tech paths and alot of gas for an army like that. toss can reach it quicker with carriers and if zerg doesnt have the units its over. And that isn't really a bad thing if protoss has this late-game timing push since they're so vulnerable early on. If zerg can win the game before that timing, or injure protoss enough that they reach their end game when protoss has their lategame, then thats well played from the zerg.
I think you didn't watch True vs Neeb in the last olimoleague was 3 days ago.
Watch the Vods, see how true harass but still loses vs carriers.
A korean losing 3-1 to a 16 year old american.
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I agree, except the part where you say Mech is hard to play at high level. 
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Skytoss is completely overpowered. Have you ever tried to fight mass carriers? lol
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Zergs: Just go watch ViBe stream how he dismantle skytosses armies left and right and stop whining.
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why use abduct, just parasitic bomb the fleet.
That's the spell what zerg needs to break skytoss.
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parasitic bomb doesn't do much damage if the person just spreads their fleet out before engagement which isn't a hard thing to do
I think the best way to deal with it currently is to go corruptor spore viper + melee upgrades to harass his economy which is the most vital part of carrier play
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I thought I was being cute rushing carriers vs zerg, turns out it's standard play.
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On October 10 2015 14:31 BigRedDog wrote:
why use abduct, just parasitic bomb the fleet.
That's the spell what zerg needs to break skytoss.
Actually PB doesn't work. Carriers don't naturally clump like mutas or liberators so there is only little AOE effect. Cast 10 PB on 10 different carriers and not a single one dies.
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On October 10 2015 12:11 DilemaH wrote:Even then, the skytoss army doesn't really beat and end-game zerg, so how do you win as skytoss?
Most people saying that skytoss is beatable don't have in mind that carrier are like tempest but with much higher DPS and now much higher range.
Nothing in the zerg arsenal can reach the carrier fast enough :
-vipers can't grab or cast PB
- hydralisks can't reach carriers so they fight interceptors but it's not efficient
-corruptors may reach carriers but they die way too fast
-Infestors are almost useless, fungal doesn't work against opponents that split their carrier/interceptors, neural is impossible because the range is too short and infestor is a high priority target for the ai, and infested terrans are... lol
Skytoss destroys every zerg army.
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I have no problems with skytoss being viable but it should never be the best/only option to play.
Mass air battles are just FAR less interesting then ground battles because positioning doesn't matter and there's less micro potential.
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Carriers are completely and utterly overpowered. I'm fine with skytoss in general, but there's a reason that it's not that popular (outside of the currently broken carrier). It's because protoss air units are really boring to play with and against from the Toss/Zerg perspective. There's really that much going on here. To win you really have to gain some sort of momentum.
It's really dumb that Protoss has an air unit that is so powerful that there is no composition Zerg can make which can stand on even ground or trade cost efficiently against it. You go skytoss with a composition that isn't carriers? Sure, but you're probably not going to win. Skytoss really isn't that interesting without the carrier, but as of right now the unit is fucking ridiculous.
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EPT
