EPTI used skytoss quite a bit against zerg when i offraced and i found it very easy to beat averge master zergs. It becomes weaker at a much higher level because zergs will start doing all the right things not because the composition becomes harder to use.
Beauty of skytoss vs zerg: why it should stay - Page 2
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zerge
Germany162 Posts
I used skytoss quite a bit against zerg when i offraced and i found it very easy to beat averge master zergs. It becomes weaker at a much higher level because zergs will start doing all the right things not because the composition becomes harder to use. | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
Air units are inherently less interesting because they ignore terrain and units collision. So you have to do a lot to make them as interesting as ground battles. Perhaps if Blizzard introduced very good GtA units for all races. Now you have to make air units to deal with air units, so the dynamics is the worst possible. | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
If you think Carriers aren't OP right now, it's because you like to play Skytoss. | ||
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AdrianHealeyy
114 Posts
That's an issue. (I also share the 'air compositions should not be the way to go' sentiment.) | ||
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mCon.Hephaistas
Netherlands891 Posts
But carriers are very broken right now | ||
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owlman
France58 Posts
Zergs: Just go watch ViBe stream how he dismantle skytosses armies left and right and stop whining This. A bunch of GM zerg don't have any issue fighting pure carrier just watch streams and learn before crying .... | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
In LotV, skytoss is just hands down the strongest style. And it's not even particularly difficult to play (HotS sky toss was much harder). Seeing skytoss every game is just really boring, especially cos LotV sky toss is a lot more stale than the HotS variant which was actually played somewhat aggressive. I'd really like to see the style get toned down a lot. Sky toss should not be the most predominant style for Protoss. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
it's actually one of the reasons i really favor zerg, because i feel zerg traditionally has the most reward for playing a mobile style with mid tech units and not rushing to air. sure broodlords are good in some situations but they also get countered and you have to continue on with your game plan and usually manage a ground army as well i like air units that are fragile and mobile like oracles, mutas, banshees, etc, and i think they're great for the game. you can argue about how strong harass should be, but the unit control is satisfying and the fragility of the units feels appropriate. capital ships and "positional" air units i'm not so sure about. i honestly wouldn't mind playing a version of starcraft with a separate air supply cap, but obviously it's too late for that kind of change | ||
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On October 10 2015 19:10 blooblooblahblah wrote: In LotV, skytoss is just hands down the strongest style. And it's not even particularly difficult to play (HotS sky toss was much harder). Seeing skytoss every game is just really boring, especially cos LotV sky toss is a lot more stale than the HotS variant which was actually played somewhat aggressive. I'd really like to see the style get toned down a lot. Sky toss should not be the most predominant style for Protoss. You can't blame players for using the style that is the strongest, especially considering that Protoss ground is now the weakest of all 3 races. | ||
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gophario
United States169 Posts
On October 10 2015 20:08 EleanorRIgby wrote: almost all zergs just dont use neural parasite when 5-6 infestors with NP can easily turn the tide when they take almost half of the protoss air army and screw with their targeting. How exactly is a zerg army supposed to maintain a neural for more than 2 seconds against a maxed carrier army with High Templars storming and using feedback and carriers killing infestors in a few seconds time? | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On October 10 2015 20:48 gophario wrote: How exactly is a zerg army supposed to maintain a neural for more than 2 seconds against a maxed carrier army with High Templars storming and using feedback and carriers killing infestors in a few seconds time? It can't be done, which is why no one is using Infestors vs Skytoss. The right course of action is to out expand Protoss and throw multiple waves of units at him - either mass Speedling/Queen + Spores, or mass Hydra. The idea is to do either direct eco damage, by killing probes and buildings (Speedlings) or to engage Carriers with a lot of stuff (Hydra) and trade. Hydras require that you hit the right timing. You have to engage while the Carrier count is still relatively low. You don't have to downright annihilate P's air army. It is enough if you kill even a couple of Carriers and almost all interceptors, which is doable. But you have to have better eco than P and do it multiple times. Eventually he won't have enough minerals to rebuild his interceptors. | ||
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A_Scarecrow
Australia721 Posts
On October 10 2015 19:01 owlman wrote: This. A bunch of GM zerg don't have any issue fighting pure carrier just watch streams and learn before crying .... same thing was said about mech in hots. just cause higher level players can do it doesnt mean lower level players can. its easier to play skytoss than it is to verse it. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On October 10 2015 21:41 A_Scarecrow wrote: same thing was said about mech in hots. just cause higher level players can do it doesnt mean lower level players can. its easier to play skytoss than it is to verse it. It is easier to play against Skytoss than it ever was to play against BL/Infestor or SH. The reason for that is, that while with those compositions Zerg had free units and could trade endlessly for real units of the opponent, Carriers cost a lot of minerals in the long run. Even if you don't lose Carriers, you are bound to lose interceptors. And for every Carrier that needs to rebuild its interceptors you are looking at a cost of 200 minerals. Thus, when playing against Skytoss, it is very well possible to bleed the Protoss out, if you out expand him and trade well. It wasn't possible to bleed the Zerg with BL/Inf or SHs out, because he had an endless amount of free units. You had to kill him in one attack or die slowly. And as for Skytoss being easier to play than play against: learning a couple of sharp all-in BOs can go a long way. Speedling/Ravager is pretty good. | ||
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Para199x
United Kingdom40 Posts
On October 10 2015 21:49 CheddarToss wrote: It is easier to play against Skytoss than it ever was to play against BL/Infestor or SH. The reason for that is, that while with those compositions Zerg had free units and could trade endlessly for real units of the opponent, Carriers cost a lot of minerals in the long run. Even if you don't lose Carriers, you are bound to lose interceptors. And for every Carrier that needs to rebuild its interceptors you are looking at a cost of 200 minerals. Thus, when playing against Skytoss, it is very well possible to bleed the Protoss out, if you out expand him and trade well. It wasn't possible to bleed the Zerg with BL/Inf or SHs out, because he had an endless amount of free units. You had to kill him in one attack or die slowly. And as for Skytoss being easier to play than play against: learning a couple of sharp all-in BOs can go a long way. Speedling/Ravager is pretty good. Broken compositions have existed in the past therefore it isn't a problem now. You should be happy to never be able to play a long game against protoss and just all in every game. Are you for real? | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On October 10 2015 21:52 Para199x wrote: Broken compositions have existed in the past therefore it isn't a problem now. You should be happy to never be able to play a long game against protoss and just all in every game. Are you for real? People say it's broken, but it's not like it's an auto win as soon as the Protoss goes Skytoss. Skytoss can be beaten straight up and I have watched a number of games by Stephano, where he does just that and even makes it look ezpz. That was the response to Skytoss being especially hard to beat in lower leagues. If you are a low league player and you can't manage the late game vs Skytoss, then learn a couple of good all-in BOs. What do you think low league Protoss/Terran players were doing during the BL/Inf or SH phase? The game can't be balanced at all levels of play, the most important thing is that it is balanced at the pro level. | ||
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mCon.Hephaistas
Netherlands891 Posts
On October 10 2015 22:00 CheddarToss wrote: People say it's broken, but it's not like it's an auto win as soon as the Protoss goes Skytoss. Skytoss can be beaten straight up and I have watched a number of games by Stephano, where he does just that and even makes it look ezpz. That was the response to Skytoss being especially hard to beat in lower leagues. If you are a low league player and you can't manage the late game vs Skytoss, then learn a couple of good all-in BOs. What do you think low league Protoss/Terran players were doing during the BL/Inf or SH phase? The game can't be balanced at all levels of play, the most important thing is that it is balanced at the pro level. Omg and I saw MMA and Mvp win against zergs that went broodlord infestor in WoL, so must have been balanced too. Even if it was balanced, it is currently just the best way of playing PvZ, and for most people skytoss is just as boring as mech. We don't want that shit to be the most dominant playstyle. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On October 10 2015 22:12 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Omg and I saw MMA and Mvp win against zergs that went broodlord infestor in WoL, so must have been balanced too. Even if it was balanced, it is currently just the best way of playing PvZ, and for most people skytoss is just as boring as mech. We don't want that shit to be the most dominant playstyle. In that case it might be a good idea to not complain about Protoss all the time, even about things which are annoying, but clearly not broken. Constant complaining, as DK has said himself ("perception" being more important than facts), leads to unjustified nerfs, which leads to Protoss having a shitty ground army, which leads to strong Skytoss, in order to balance the MUs out. | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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FireCake
151 Posts
On October 11 2015 01:11 shin_toss wrote: My carriers got rekt by pure mass hydra.Thing is interceptors just get destroyed so quickly. But yeah its fine Your army was not complete, you didn't have High templars. | ||
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