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Beauty of skytoss vs zerg: why it should stay - Page 3

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
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zerge
Profile Joined December 2012
Germany162 Posts
October 10 2015 22:22 GMT
#41
You don't need templar against mass hydra. My guess is he lost because of some trivial thing like beeing down several upgrades, not all units attacking or beeing down significantly in army supply.
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
October 11 2015 11:21 GMT
#42
I don't know about the balance, but i dislike air only armies because they ignore ground for the most part. Especially when air has to be countered by air, like Terran Viking-Raven, the game becomes to simplistic imo. If the best counter was in ground form, like Goliaths, then you would get some more interesting gameplay with the air army trying to out position the ground army and exploit weak points.
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
Magnifico
Profile Joined March 2013
1958 Posts
October 11 2015 12:25 GMT
#43
Saddens my heart watching people go skytoss over and over against both P and Z.

Its the equivalent of watching Bruno Mars when you could be watching Michael Jackson.
TheoMikkelsen
Profile Joined June 2013
Denmark196 Posts
October 11 2015 13:14 GMT
#44
I think you make some very good points about Skytoss and it is indeed beautiftul.
Any sufficiently cheesy build is indistinguishable in skill
RoomOfMush
Profile Joined March 2015
1296 Posts
October 11 2015 13:27 GMT
#45
I also dislike air units. They are bland compared to ground units. There is no blocking or positioning involved, everything just clumps up into this big mess of melted 3D models. I would prefer for air units to be used as small strike forces, quick and deadly but fragile at the same time. Air units that reward multitasking but punish players that do not pay attention to them.
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28524 Posts
October 11 2015 13:58 GMT
#46
Of all composition archetypes, sky-anything are the least desirable imo. In a recent Remax there was a discussion about defenders advantage. Having so many air units in the game makes it possible to have compositions that largely ignore terrain altogether making the issue of not having defenders advantage even worse (death balls). If any race should have more air it should be Protoss though, I guess.

I can't believe I don't see more adversity against the liberator btw. Not about how (im)balanced it is but that it's yet another air unit. It overlaps with the tank even, one of the most iconic units of the game.. Of Terrans' 3 production buildings the starport now even has the most units. How boring.
I Protoss winner, could it be?
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20326 Posts
October 11 2015 14:28 GMT
#47
On October 10 2015 13:51 Daizer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2015 13:41 DilemaH wrote:
On October 10 2015 12:54 A_Scarecrow wrote:
On October 10 2015 12:33 DilemaH wrote:
On October 10 2015 12:19 phfantunes wrote:
How so? Endgame toss army is absolutely unbeatable by Zerg and the race in general struggles with air deathballs. So it's not that people are against skytoss, it's just that zerg has no way to trade resources efficiently or beat that perfect air comp toss can achieve.


I think its actually fairly even if plaayed right. zerg might lose a straightup fight, but with the AOE of ravagers, fungal and parasitic bombs, combined with ultras to zone-out the templar (which cant be killed by anything) and hydras and corruptors for supporting damage, its much more even than it seems.

EDIT: Plus zerg has remaxes

issue is zerg need so many tech paths and alot of gas for an army like that. toss can reach it quicker with carriers and if zerg doesnt have the units its over.


And that isn't really a bad thing if protoss has this late-game timing push since they're so vulnerable early on. If zerg can win the game before that timing, or injure protoss enough that they reach their end game when protoss has their lategame, then thats well played from the zerg.


A korean losing 3-1 to a 16 year old american.



Wasn't flash like 15, 16 years old when winning a fuckton of tournaments and becoming the best BW player in the world?
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
zizerg
Profile Joined March 2010
Kyrgyzstan16 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-13 17:43:48
October 13 2015 17:43 GMT
#48
I can't find a thread about cariers in ZvP so I'll write idea here.

Idea: using PB on own corraptors to kill interceptors.

It is brilliant idea as DK like:

1. It is fun and unexpected
2. It is unit cooperation
3. It is simple

so, changes are:

1. PB on own corraptors
2. PB hasn't friendly fire
3. PB kills interceptors
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
October 13 2015 20:51 GMT
#49
On October 11 2015 22:58 Penev wrote:
I can't believe I don't see more adversity against the liberator btw. Not about how (im)balanced it is but that it's yet another air unit. It overlaps with the tank even, one of the most iconic units of the game.. Of Terrans' 3 production buildings the starport now even has the most units. How boring.


There was a lot of talk about this when the Liberator first came out, but what are you going to do? The Liberator is a legitimate, working space control unit. Martyring the Liberator is only a good idea if we have reason to believe the Tank would get some serious buffs as recompense, and I don't see that we do.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
Nakoz
Profile Joined July 2013
24 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-14 04:14:32
October 14 2015 04:14 GMT
#50
Yep, every single protoss just go skytoss every game, it's quite boring, dull and hard to win against them. It's funny how cyclone can kite every single zerg units..

I'm done with this game.. The beta is boring...
ROOTFayth
Profile Joined January 2004
Canada3351 Posts
October 14 2015 05:34 GMT
#51
we would go ground if zerg's ground wasn't so overpowered
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
October 14 2015 06:22 GMT
#52
They should rework infestors to NOT be such a high target priority by enemy AI - require the enemy to target them.

I had a game just yesterday where I managed to NP roughly 6 BCs all simultaneously, for a decent duration, but still got slaughtered as the remaining BCs instantly auto target the infestors over all other units, including my corrupters. Was quite sad to see, he had about 9 BCs total, nearly 2/3 were mine, but since BC only does minimal dmg to BC (I got off a few Yamatos but its hard as shit to micro), they quickly died.
PtitDrogo
Profile Joined May 2011
France163 Posts
October 14 2015 09:37 GMT
#53
Nerf Carrier, nerf lurker and we will already have a way more interesting PvZ.
Right now it's boring as fuck to have to go carrier everygame.
Progamer
gophario
Profile Joined July 2011
United States169 Posts
October 14 2015 10:11 GMT
#54
On October 14 2015 18:37 PtitDrogo wrote:
Nerf Carrier, nerf lurker and we will already have a way more interesting PvZ.
Right now it's boring as fuck to have to go carrier everygame.


Agreed, carrier is ridic but protoss cant win on the ground vs lurker. Thing is lurker doesnt come out in time to stop protoss all ins so its not the defensive unit it appears its just some crazy tanky antiground unit that walks into the fight and murders everything.

MU would be way more interesting if lurkers were easier to get and worse damage/hp. Not sure what the solution to carrier is, it went from being this terrible unit no one ever made and was almost removed from the game to this stupidly overpowered unit that cant be beaten but has to be made because nothing else really works.
FFW_Rude
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France10201 Posts
October 14 2015 10:12 GMT
#55
On October 10 2015 16:39 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2015 14:31 BigRedDog wrote:
why use abduct, just parasitic bomb the fleet.

That's the spell what zerg needs to break skytoss.


Actually PB doesn't work. Carriers don't naturally clump like mutas or liberators so there is only little AOE effect. Cast 10 PB on 10 different carriers and not a single one dies.


But all your vipers does :p
#1 KT Rolster fanboy. KT BEST KT ! Hail to KT playoffs Zergs ! Unofficial french translator for SlayerS_`Boxer` biography "Crazy as me".
Gullis
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden740 Posts
October 14 2015 10:50 GMT
#56
On October 14 2015 19:11 gophario wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2015 18:37 PtitDrogo wrote:
Nerf Carrier, nerf lurker and we will already have a way more interesting PvZ.
Right now it's boring as fuck to have to go carrier everygame.


Agreed, carrier is ridic but protoss cant win on the ground vs lurker. Thing is lurker doesnt come out in time to stop protoss all ins so its not the defensive unit it appears its just some crazy tanky antiground unit that walks into the fight and murders everything.

MU would be way more interesting if lurkers were easier to get and worse damage/hp. Not sure what the solution to carrier is, it went from being this terrible unit no one ever made and was almost removed from the game to this stupidly overpowered unit that cant be beaten but has to be made because nothing else really works.


I am not really worried about balancing the carrier, there are so many parameters to play with.
Take all the normal things like cost, build time and health etc and make twice because of interceptors. So out of a balance perspective the carrier should be the dream.
I would rather eat than see my children starve.
FireCake
Profile Joined March 2013
151 Posts
October 14 2015 10:57 GMT
#57
On October 14 2015 19:11 gophario wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2015 18:37 PtitDrogo wrote:
Nerf Carrier, nerf lurker and we will already have a way more interesting PvZ.
Right now it's boring as fuck to have to go carrier everygame.

protoss cant win on the ground vs lurker.


This is not true.
Protoss can deal with lurkers very easily with disruptors.
Indeed the lurker is in a pretty terrible shape right now because we can't save lurkers against disruptor shots because unburrow time is too long and we can't protect lurkers with other units because disruptor shots walk through units.
Theo proposed in an other post to reduce the unburrow time of lurkers because they are very weak against disruptors.
Progamer
ROOTFayth
Profile Joined January 2004
Canada3351 Posts
October 14 2015 17:47 GMT
#58
lol firecake
FireCake
Profile Joined March 2013
151 Posts
October 14 2015 17:53 GMT
#59
On October 15 2015 02:47 ROOTFayth wrote:
lol firecake


If you don't agree with what i said, would you mind explaining why ?
Progamer
ROOTFayth
Profile Joined January 2004
Canada3351 Posts
October 14 2015 20:22 GMT
#60
the main issue is that you can spread your lurker really easily and you need 2 disruptor shot to kill 1 lurker, it takes quite a bit of time to clear a properly sieged position with lurkers, and by the time you manage to clear it out usually zerg was already teching to ultralisks and disruptors fare very poorly vs ultras/lings/vipers and w/e else zerg can throw at you

I seriously feel that zerg ground is way overpowered vs protoss ground atm
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