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On August 10 2015 22:42 varsovie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2015 22:28 billynasty wrote:
doesnt this already exist to some extent? We have Yabot plus on the arcade, a bunch of trainers. I agree it could all be refined & easier to access. But all one has to do now is just google build order testers & one will find help. It also exist in some extend as semi or totally "illegal" ways. You can always write it down on a piece of paper, have someone behind you/skype telling you what to do (coaching), have a software on your computer telling you (hack/semi-hack or just video) or even have it on your phone... The only problem I see with the suggestion is that it's aimed to help new players or bad ones (aka bronze to plat) where quite literally a build order does nothing. At that level it's not much about what'when you build than IF you build, making workers, supply structures and spending floating $ on any unit. So while this might help a bit this doesn't fix the problems that newbies suck at macro, and sometime even uses the command card or forget the minimap exist or even change the build order with scouting information. Second point is one of fairness, if that mode exist, would it be "fair" of implementing it on the ladder, or if it's iomplemented on a "newb" ladder while there be anyone on it (I challenge anyone to find a game in HotS on Coop vs AI). In SC2 there's APM intensive macro mechanics, a queue that cost $ for units and buildings and no infinite or automated production in SC2. I won't debates whether those are good game design choices, but they're what makes SC, taxing the player so they can't be 100% on the fights, and can make mistakes behind the battlefield too.
I disagree, if you have a buildorder to follow its a lot easier to remember to do it (at least thats how my brain works)
I think this could be a great suggestion, maybe keep it unranked only or something?
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On August 10 2015 20:51 kaby wrote:
it's better to post suggestions of this type to reddit afaik
Actually best to post on the b.net forums. Post on TL if you want to get some good community contributions to your idea. Post on b.net if you want Blizzard to see it. Or post it anywhere and tweet a link at them.
To the OP: really awesome idea. I'm totally on board with the community and Blizzard taking responsibility for training and educating the "newbs" so that they can appreciate the game as it is, rather than pruning parts of the game and "dumbing it down."
To the people saying this already exists: I think the key thing is for this to exist officially, as part of a progression of things that a new player would go through, or at least be given the option to do, before hitting find match for ranked play. You have to really think about the difference between the type of person who decides to get good at something and does independent research and approaches their goals in a discipline manner versus the type of person who takes a casual approach and only does what's put in front of them. Pretty much everyone is actually both types of person, and it's really the activity and their enthusiasm for it that determines their behavior. It'd be great for SC2 to have a more extensive tutorial/training progression for new players interested in multiplayer so that everyone can get a proper exposure to it and be more likely to have a positive experience.
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DotA2 has this - my nephew user to have certain guide authors that he trusted and used. Now he is much more familiar with the game and uses his own judgement (or remembers the content of the guides).
I think that it is an excellent idea for the game - but needs balancing! Can you do it on ladder, at all levels of ladder or just bronze/silver? Will it go so far as to offer warnings such as 'warning, soon is the time that a DT could attack' etc.
But yes, I am all for it!
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On August 10 2015 21:23 lichter wrote:
Yeah multiplayer definitely needs a tutorial considering multiplayer and single player plays veeeeery differently BO-wise.
Agreed, while the campaign is awesome, its not that much of a tutorial anymore. And the trainingsmodes for Multiplayer in WoL weren't perfect either. Especially the vs player one, where you usually were blocked by rocks from your opponent. Which sounded good for base building, but in the end made people weak to aggressive play.
And this Build order thingie will do as well. Or it will train beginners how to cheese your way into higher ranks.
I think we need something different. The WoL challenge were you had to crunch out stuff as fast as possible and defend waves of attacking units always felt really good and fun.
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On August 11 2015 00:09 NonY wrote: You have to really think about the difference between the type of person who decides to get good at something and does independent research and approaches their goals in a discipline manner versus the type of person who takes a casual approach and only does what's put in front of them. Pretty much everyone is actually both types of person, and it's really the activity and their enthusiasm for it that determines their behavior. I think this is really accurate. However I also think Starcraft 2 is simply the type of activity that requires the former approach to see real results. I personally have always had the attitude that this is not a bad thing, it's just the nature of the beast.
Honest question: why should we strive to make the game easier to get into using "the latter approach" described above? I don't see why that should be a goal or what positive effects we would expect as a result. It is a demanding game and I'm fine with everybody deciding on their own whether they want to put in the effort it demands or not. Like you said it is mostly about a persons level of interest and level of motivation for sc2 specifically, it's not that some people are capable and some are not.
This might seem like a bit of a tangent but I think it's very relevant. I personally would argue that since there are already tools that do what the OP suggests, and the only "problem" with them is that a person has to go looking for them in the arcade/by looking for resources online, it is not a good use of Blizzards limited resources to reinvent the wheel so we can have an official wheel that is easier to find.
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I like this idea but here is my issue:
I feel like new players shouldn't be going for very specific builds. They should be figuring out the flow of the game through simple things like knowing when to start a refinery to make a factory when the barracks finishes. If you encourage them to go straight for the more polished builds they might skip the early learning steps that would truly help them understand the game. There's also the issue that new players won't be able to execute specific builds well enough to make them relevant.
Once again: I like the idea but I don't see it as a benefit to new players. I think it would help mid-level players a lot though.
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On August 11 2015 00:49 claybones wrote:
I like this idea but here is my issue:
I feel like new players shouldn't be going for very specific builds. They should be figuring out the flow of the game through simple things like knowing when to start a refinery to make a factory when the barracks finishes. If you encourage them to go straight for the more polished builds they might skip the early learning steps that would truly help them understand the game. There's also the issue that new players won't be able to execute specific builds well enough to make them relevant.
Once again: I like the idea but I don't see it as a benefit to new players. I think it would help mid-level players a lot though.
But when you start your refinery in relation to your rax is what is defined by a build
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Great idea, thank you for sharing!
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On August 11 2015 00:49 claybones wrote:
I like this idea but here is my issue:
I feel like new players shouldn't be going for very specific builds. They should be figuring out the flow of the game through simple things like knowing when to start a refinery to make a factory when the barracks finishes. If you encourage them to go straight for the more polished builds they might skip the early learning steps that would truly help them understand the game. There's also the issue that new players won't be able to execute specific builds well enough to make them relevant.
Once again: I like the idea but I don't see it as a benefit to new players. I think it would help mid-level players a lot though.
Way back when I was playing Starcraft (BW in this case) somewhat seriously, one of the things the guy I practiced with have me do a gazillion times was play the first 5 minutes or so of a bog-standard 1-gate expand. Sure, I worked on things like not screwing up cannon placement in an FE, or microing goons/sairs/reavers, or move vs. a-move commands, but this one build is probably the thing I did most. We'd practice with shared vision, and he'd be pointing out "build the gateway now", "idle probes", "gas is late", etc. - the things this proposed mode would do automatically.
Now, when I say "seriously", don't get me wrong: I never got above iCCup D-. I didn't have the time or enthusiasm then, and I definitely don't now. But I can still do this build more or less precisely without really thinking about it, and it gave me a much better idea of timings and how the game "should work" then I had ever gotten "naturally" by just goofing around.
tl;dr: I think it could help just about anybody.
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On August 11 2015 00:49 claybones wrote:
I like this idea but here is my issue:
I feel like new players shouldn't be going for very specific builds. They should be figuring out the flow of the game through simple things like knowing when to start a refinery to make a factory when the barracks finishes. If you encourage them to go straight for the more polished builds they might skip the early learning steps that would truly help them understand the game. There's also the issue that new players won't be able to execute specific builds well enough to make them relevant.
Once again: I like the idea but I don't see it as a benefit to new players. I think it would help mid-level players a lot though.
I disagree. When I was getting back into Dota after a 5-year break, and I forgot what little I knew, the first thing I did was look up some builds for the heroes I remember I had fun playing, and when my friend told me that now they have the feature where you can pull up user-submitted builds, I followed the top rated one religiously until I got a bit better and had more of an idea what I was doing.
There's also different kinds of builds, and in addition to a 5-star user rating maybe could be rated out of 5 author-assigned points, let's call them rocks in DB's honor, on difficulty, safety, and ubiquity (i.e. can it be hard countered?). For example, a 4 gate could be 2 rocks. You have to be fast and do things in a very specific order, but at low levels it's very straightforward and you don't have to micro. Also, there's ways to counter it but it does a good job against all three races if the enemy doesn't react properly. The other player might have beaten you with a build order. A timing push that involves two attacks (say a frontal push and a medivac drop) at 11:00 could be 4 or 5 rocks because it relies on a key timing, you have to play nearly perfectly to be able to exploit that timing, and you have to control two attacks and be aware of which attack your enemy decides to commit his attention to.
So the author of the build decides the difficulty, and everyone else can rate it on quality and maybe comment on it. And outside the game you can choose which builds you want to pull up in the game, read the comments, see how many rocks and skim the build to see what to do, and then load up a game and try it out.
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I support such a feature in training and possibly arcade and unranked, but not in ranked.
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On August 11 2015 01:49 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
I disagree. When I was getting back into Dota after a 5-year break, and I forgot what little I knew, the first thing I did was look up some builds for the heroes I remember I had fun playing\
I'm almost entirely ignorant of how MOBA games work so forgive me if this is wrong. Wouldn't you still be fairly mechanically sound? Maybe not immediately but if you play something you have a good deal of experience in it should be easy to fall back in to with relative ease. I would think you'd fall in to the grouping of mid-level players given that assumption.
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On August 11 2015 02:21 claybones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2015 01:49 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
I disagree. When I was getting back into Dota after a 5-year break, and I forgot what little I knew, the first thing I did was look up some builds for the heroes I remember I had fun playing\ I'm almost entirely ignorant of how MOBA games work so forgive me if this is wrong. Wouldn't you still be fairly mechanically sound? Maybe not immediately but if you play something you have a good deal of experience in it should be easy to fall back in to with relative ease. I would think you'd fall in to the grouping of mid-level players given that assumption.
I can do about as much as anyone who knows the basic rules of the game and has had experience with SC2 or some other RTS (so you can control units, etc.) I needed to re-learn how to last-hit, when to go back, when not to go back, what the other heroes did, how my hero works... I played a bit of League in the intervening times (a string of 20-ish ranked games every 8 months or so), and my highest was Bronze 1, but even then League has different last hitting, no denying (in fact completely different support mechanics)... I knew only the essentials.
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I'm pretty sure there's already mods for that but you are right.
Blizzard should make a mod for beginners in multiplayer, not only for build order but for anything going on in multiplatyer. A training platform where you learn the basic of scouting, the basic of classical timings, the micro tricks, and of course the build orders.
well no point doing it now since LOTV ruins everything you have learned in sc2 until now, so one for lotv would be cool.
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We already have that, sc2scrapbook or even audioBO on youtube. The issue is that as sc2 is not finished it's impossible to build a real database(believe me, a lot of pple tried^^)
For example, TL is the biggest sc2 community and you can see how well liquipedia is updated with BOs 
Good idea, wrong timing :p
@varsovie
It also exist in some extend as semi or totally "illegal" ways. You can always write it down on a piece of paper, have someone behind you/skype telling you what to do (coaching), have a software on your computer telling you (hack/semi-hack or just video) or even have it on your phone...
None of thiw ways are illegal
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On August 11 2015 02:40 Cazimirbzh wrote:We already have that, sc2scrapbook or even audioBO on youtube. The issue is that as sc2 is not finished it's impossible to build a real database(believe me, a lot of pple tried^^) For example, TL is the biggest sc2 community and you can see how well liquipedia is updated with BOs Good idea, wrong timing :p
I'd do more for those awesome coins in my sig but I'm bad at the game so all I can do is general overviews like the General PvX Strategy articles or copy builds from the strategy section.
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@[UoN]Sentinel
Only korean are not bad a this game :p All we can is try to help because we love the game but atm there is not mutch to do except to wait for LOTV.
edit: as soon as it strat running, i think we can hope some kind of combo with visual displays like scrapbook (when build what n text) and with audio option.
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On August 10 2015 20:48 DinoMight wrote:
DotA has something helpful similar to this already and it's VERY good for beginners. The Hero Guides.
Basically you can select from several build orders that are uploaded by people at the start of the game and the game walks you through them. Whenever you level up it highlights the next skill that you should put points into etc.
Maybe something similar to "training mode" but with user uploaded builds.
Awesome idea. With a continually changing meta it would be perfect if there was a "blank canvas", if you will, that Blizzard provides so that people can upload builds and share them into a upvote/downvote system.
EDIT: Thanks to the OP for posting
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Maybe there could also be a histogram of how well you did compared to the other players.
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EPT
