EPTBlizzard: Please make a "Build Order Mode"
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djwaters22
112 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Basically you can select from several build orders that are uploaded by people at the start of the game and the game walks you through them. Whenever you level up it highlights the next skill that you should put points into etc. Maybe something similar to "training mode" but with user uploaded builds. | ||
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kaby
Russian Federation195 Posts
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Blargh
United States2101 Posts
As someone who has solid decision making, and macro/micro, the hardest part for me, especially for getting BACK into the game, is finding/coming up with a totally viable build order. When I come back to the game after long periods of time, I forget original build orders, and am not familiar with current metas. It would be so convenient for there to be an easy way to pick up recent build orders that pros have already refined, without the heavy and tedious replay analysis. I swear this is one of the best changes they can make for keeping a large casual userbase. | ||
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djwaters22
112 Posts
On August 10 2015 20:58 Blargh wrote: Oh my god, yes. They absolutely need to implement one of these. This game needs it WAY more than any other game in existence. There needs to be something better than just watching a replay, and writing a build order down with supply for timings. As someone who has solid decision making, and macro/micro, the hardest part for me, especially for getting BACK into the game, is finding/coming up with a totally viable build order. When I come back to the game after long periods of time, I forget original build orders, and am not familiar with current metas. It would be so convenient for there to be an easy way to pick up recent build orders that pros have already refined, without the heavy and tedious replay analysis. I swear this is one of the best changes they can make for keeping a large casual userbase. Awesome! I am so glad you like it. I think for sure LOTV will spike a lot of interest and rake in a ton of new players. The easy part is getting them in, the hard part is keeping them. This would totally help. | ||
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djwaters22
112 Posts
On August 10 2015 20:48 DinoMight wrote: DotA has something helpful similar to this already and it's VERY good for beginners. The Hero Guides. Basically you can select from several build orders that are uploaded by people at the start of the game and the game walks you through them. Whenever you level up it highlights the next skill that you should put points into etc. Maybe something similar to "training mode" but with user uploaded builds. Training mode sounds good. Anything aimed at new players is the goal here. Finding the game isnt difficult but keeping them is | ||
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Anvil666
Germany122 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On August 10 2015 21:16 Anvil666 wrote: +1 here. This would be brilliant. Although it would be challenging to keep the bos updated. Either Blizzard or - even better - the community should have a way to keep the bos fresh. you don't really need fresh bos for training newbies, just a couple of basic macro timing styles for each race. meta doesn't matter if you're trying to get builds down | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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Orlok
Korea (South)227 Posts
For all players, both new and old, the biggest problem when trying to learn new builds is the lack of visual reference material. With this mode, we could LOOK out for the smaller details within builds, such as when to build supply depos, pylons, and overlords, when to proxy a pylon when doing a 2 base all in, so many small things that we all miss when trying out new builds for the first time! Every time I try to copy a tasteless build against zerg, I always fumble while staring at the build order I wrote down. I can't perfectly execute the pylon placement, the timings and everything because there is only so much I can get from just writing and trying it out. Visual examples of a build bit by bit is definitely a step to garner new players and keep them here. Great job! | ||
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djwaters22
112 Posts
On August 10 2015 21:34 Orlok wrote: This is AMAZING. For all players, both new and old, the biggest problem when trying to learn new builds is the lack of visual reference material. With this mode, we could LOOK out at the smaller details within the builds, such as when to build supply depos, pylons, and overlords, when to proxy a pylon when doing a 2 base all in, so many small things that we all miss when trying out new builds for the first time! Every time I try to copy a tasteless build against zerg, I always fumble while staring at the build order I wrote down. I can't perfectly execute the pylon placement, the timings and everything because there is only so much I can get from just writing and trying it out. Visual examples of a build bit by bit is definitely a step to garner new players and keep them here. Great job! Wow your reply really made me feel good. Sc2 is my life and it means a lot to me! Thanks a lot | ||
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VGhost
United States3613 Posts
The problem, of course, is that build orders are constantly changing as meta and maps change and counters are worked out to "overpowered" builds - never mind patch issues. So the ideal would be a "build order editor" to go with "build order mode". The build order mode might just be like you say - build x now, green if you get it, red if you're late. I'm imagining two columns down the left side, one for buildings, one for units, like this: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qfW7LzR.png) But the editor would be a separate mode you fire up and lasting probably 3-5 minutes (after that builds are going to have to vary due to reaction to the opponent), where you could execute an "ideal" build order as a template and then share it for other people to practice with. In this mode, the time each building/unit is started would be recorded, and the save file would then be "viewable" in the build-order mode with those times transformed into the building/unit sequences as above. Without this, you'd be trusting Blizzard to (a) keep the "top 3 build orders" you suggest current and (b) get them right, neither of which I'm sure would actually get done. Further, this gives more flexibility - e.g. say sOs comes up with a new loony build, someone could almost instantly work it out and publish it "sOs 3-gate proxy!". Sure, takes some of the mystery out of watching the pros, but it also gives more connection. I'm thinking here of how almost every chess game played at a major tournament gets recorded somewhere, analyzed, shared with chess clubs, etc. (Problem: how do you give new players an idea which are the "good" templates? If every silver player has this capability - and I think they should, to promote creativity - then any list of builds is going to be swamped. Maybe feature grandmaster (or whatever the LotV equivalent will be) templates? Some kind of "authorized build order creator" icon?) | ||
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billynasty
United States260 Posts
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
On August 10 2015 22:28 billynasty wrote: doesnt this already exist to some extent? We have Yabot plus on the arcade, a bunch of trainers. I agree it could all be refined & easier to access. But all one has to do now is just google build order testers & one will find help. It also exist in some extend as semi or totally "illegal" ways. You can always write it down on a piece of paper, have someone behind you/skype telling you what to do (coaching), have a software on your computer telling you (hack/semi-hack or just video) or even have it on your phone... The only problem I see with the suggestion is that it's aimed to help new players or bad ones (aka bronze to plat) where quite literally a build order does nothing. At that level it's not much about what'when you build than IF you build, making workers, supply structures and spending floating $ on any unit. So while this might help a bit this doesn't fix the problems that newbies suck at macro, and sometime even uses the command card or forget the minimap exist or even change the build order with scouting information. Second point is one of fairness, if that mode exist, would it be "fair" of implementing it on the ladder, or if it's iomplemented on a "newb" ladder while there be anyone on it (I challenge anyone to find a game in HotS on Coop vs AI). In SC2 there's APM intensive macro mechanics, a queue that cost $ for units and buildings and no infinite or automated production in SC2. I won't debates whether those are good game design choices, but they're what makes SC, taxing the player so they can't be 100% on the fights, and can make mistakes behind the battlefield too. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 10 2015 20:51 kaby wrote: it's better to post suggestions of this type to reddit afaik It is never better to put anything on reddit | ||
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Bastinian
Serbia177 Posts
DotA has something helpful similar to this already and it's VERY good for beginners. The Hero Guides. Exactly. That helped me to get into DotA when I was playing it. Getting into Starcraft was pretty hard though, and if you don't have will for playing it, you will hardly stay nowadays. Some detailed multiplayer guide would be perfect! | ||
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On August 10 2015 22:54 LongShot27 wrote: It is never better to put anything on reddit ^ | ||
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NEEDZMOAR
Sweden1277 Posts
On August 10 2015 20:31 djwaters22 wrote: It is not fun for a brand new player to be linked a website of specific build orders. Kids are lazy these days. So the way to fix this issue is by making another game mode named "Build Order Mode". This would be great for new players because they could learn very basic builds. Full story below--> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XskGb0ZkulU&feature=youtu.be Really cool suggestion but as other have mentioned please post this to reddit for more exposure! | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
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NEEDZMOAR
Sweden1277 Posts
On August 10 2015 22:42 varsovie wrote: It also exist in some extend as semi or totally "illegal" ways. You can always write it down on a piece of paper, have someone behind you/skype telling you what to do (coaching), have a software on your computer telling you (hack/semi-hack or just video) or even have it on your phone... The only problem I see with the suggestion is that it's aimed to help new players or bad ones (aka bronze to plat) where quite literally a build order does nothing. At that level it's not much about what'when you build than IF you build, making workers, supply structures and spending floating $ on any unit. So while this might help a bit this doesn't fix the problems that newbies suck at macro, and sometime even uses the command card or forget the minimap exist or even change the build order with scouting information. Second point is one of fairness, if that mode exist, would it be "fair" of implementing it on the ladder, or if it's iomplemented on a "newb" ladder while there be anyone on it (I challenge anyone to find a game in HotS on Coop vs AI). In SC2 there's APM intensive macro mechanics, a queue that cost $ for units and buildings and no infinite or automated production in SC2. I won't debates whether those are good game design choices, but they're what makes SC, taxing the player so they can't be 100% on the fights, and can make mistakes behind the battlefield too. I disagree, if you have a buildorder to follow its a lot easier to remember to do it (at least thats how my brain works) I think this could be a great suggestion, maybe keep it unranked only or something? | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
On August 10 2015 20:51 kaby wrote: it's better to post suggestions of this type to reddit afaik Actually best to post on the b.net forums. Post on TL if you want to get some good community contributions to your idea. Post on b.net if you want Blizzard to see it. Or post it anywhere and tweet a link at them. To the OP: really awesome idea. I'm totally on board with the community and Blizzard taking responsibility for training and educating the "newbs" so that they can appreciate the game as it is, rather than pruning parts of the game and "dumbing it down." To the people saying this already exists: I think the key thing is for this to exist officially, as part of a progression of things that a new player would go through, or at least be given the option to do, before hitting find match for ranked play. You have to really think about the difference between the type of person who decides to get good at something and does independent research and approaches their goals in a discipline manner versus the type of person who takes a casual approach and only does what's put in front of them. Pretty much everyone is actually both types of person, and it's really the activity and their enthusiasm for it that determines their behavior. It'd be great for SC2 to have a more extensive tutorial/training progression for new players interested in multiplayer so that everyone can get a proper exposure to it and be more likely to have a positive experience. | ||
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
I think that it is an excellent idea for the game - but needs balancing! Can you do it on ladder, at all levels of ladder or just bronze/silver? Will it go so far as to offer warnings such as 'warning, soon is the time that a DT could attack' etc. But yes, I am all for it! | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On August 10 2015 21:23 lichter wrote: Yeah multiplayer definitely needs a tutorial considering multiplayer and single player plays veeeeery differently BO-wise. Agreed, while the campaign is awesome, its not that much of a tutorial anymore. And the trainingsmodes for Multiplayer in WoL weren't perfect either. Especially the vs player one, where you usually were blocked by rocks from your opponent. Which sounded good for base building, but in the end made people weak to aggressive play. And this Build order thingie will do as well. Or it will train beginners how to cheese your way into higher ranks. I think we need something different. The WoL challenge were you had to crunch out stuff as fast as possible and defend waves of attacking units always felt really good and fun. | ||
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DrDevice
Canada132 Posts
On August 11 2015 00:09 NonY wrote: You have to really think about the difference between the type of person who decides to get good at something and does independent research and approaches their goals in a discipline manner versus the type of person who takes a casual approach and only does what's put in front of them. Pretty much everyone is actually both types of person, and it's really the activity and their enthusiasm for it that determines their behavior. I think this is really accurate. However I also think Starcraft 2 is simply the type of activity that requires the former approach to see real results. I personally have always had the attitude that this is not a bad thing, it's just the nature of the beast. Honest question: why should we strive to make the game easier to get into using "the latter approach" described above? I don't see why that should be a goal or what positive effects we would expect as a result. It is a demanding game and I'm fine with everybody deciding on their own whether they want to put in the effort it demands or not. Like you said it is mostly about a persons level of interest and level of motivation for sc2 specifically, it's not that some people are capable and some are not. This might seem like a bit of a tangent but I think it's very relevant. I personally would argue that since there are already tools that do what the OP suggests, and the only "problem" with them is that a person has to go looking for them in the arcade/by looking for resources online, it is not a good use of Blizzards limited resources to reinvent the wheel so we can have an official wheel that is easier to find. | ||
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claybones
United States244 Posts
I feel like new players shouldn't be going for very specific builds. They should be figuring out the flow of the game through simple things like knowing when to start a refinery to make a factory when the barracks finishes. If you encourage them to go straight for the more polished builds they might skip the early learning steps that would truly help them understand the game. There's also the issue that new players won't be able to execute specific builds well enough to make them relevant. Once again: I like the idea but I don't see it as a benefit to new players. I think it would help mid-level players a lot though. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
On August 11 2015 00:49 claybones wrote: I like this idea but here is my issue: I feel like new players shouldn't be going for very specific builds. They should be figuring out the flow of the game through simple things like knowing when to start a refinery to make a factory when the barracks finishes. If you encourage them to go straight for the more polished builds they might skip the early learning steps that would truly help them understand the game. There's also the issue that new players won't be able to execute specific builds well enough to make them relevant. Once again: I like the idea but I don't see it as a benefit to new players. I think it would help mid-level players a lot though. But when you start your refinery in relation to your rax is what is defined by a build | ||
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TelecoM
United States10668 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3351 Posts
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VGhost
United States3613 Posts
On August 11 2015 00:49 claybones wrote: I like this idea but here is my issue: I feel like new players shouldn't be going for very specific builds. They should be figuring out the flow of the game through simple things like knowing when to start a refinery to make a factory when the barracks finishes. If you encourage them to go straight for the more polished builds they might skip the early learning steps that would truly help them understand the game. There's also the issue that new players won't be able to execute specific builds well enough to make them relevant. Once again: I like the idea but I don't see it as a benefit to new players. I think it would help mid-level players a lot though. Way back when I was playing Starcraft (BW in this case) somewhat seriously, one of the things the guy I practiced with have me do a gazillion times was play the first 5 minutes or so of a bog-standard 1-gate expand. Sure, I worked on things like not screwing up cannon placement in an FE, or microing goons/sairs/reavers, or move vs. a-move commands, but this one build is probably the thing I did most. We'd practice with shared vision, and he'd be pointing out "build the gateway now", "idle probes", "gas is late", etc. - the things this proposed mode would do automatically. Now, when I say "seriously", don't get me wrong: I never got above iCCup D-. I didn't have the time or enthusiasm then, and I definitely don't now. But I can still do this build more or less precisely without really thinking about it, and it gave me a much better idea of timings and how the game "should work" then I had ever gotten "naturally" by just goofing around. tl;dr: I think it could help just about anybody. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On August 11 2015 00:49 claybones wrote: I like this idea but here is my issue: I feel like new players shouldn't be going for very specific builds. They should be figuring out the flow of the game through simple things like knowing when to start a refinery to make a factory when the barracks finishes. If you encourage them to go straight for the more polished builds they might skip the early learning steps that would truly help them understand the game. There's also the issue that new players won't be able to execute specific builds well enough to make them relevant. Once again: I like the idea but I don't see it as a benefit to new players. I think it would help mid-level players a lot though. I disagree. When I was getting back into Dota after a 5-year break, and I forgot what little I knew, the first thing I did was look up some builds for the heroes I remember I had fun playing, and when my friend told me that now they have the feature where you can pull up user-submitted builds, I followed the top rated one religiously until I got a bit better and had more of an idea what I was doing. There's also different kinds of builds, and in addition to a 5-star user rating maybe could be rated out of 5 author-assigned points, let's call them rocks in DB's honor, on difficulty, safety, and ubiquity (i.e. can it be hard countered?). For example, a 4 gate could be 2 rocks. You have to be fast and do things in a very specific order, but at low levels it's very straightforward and you don't have to micro. Also, there's ways to counter it but it does a good job against all three races if the enemy doesn't react properly. The other player might have beaten you with a build order. A timing push that involves two attacks (say a frontal push and a medivac drop) at 11:00 could be 4 or 5 rocks because it relies on a key timing, you have to play nearly perfectly to be able to exploit that timing, and you have to control two attacks and be aware of which attack your enemy decides to commit his attention to. So the author of the build decides the difficulty, and everyone else can rate it on quality and maybe comment on it. And outside the game you can choose which builds you want to pull up in the game, read the comments, see how many rocks and skim the build to see what to do, and then load up a game and try it out. | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
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claybones
United States244 Posts
On August 11 2015 01:49 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I disagree. When I was getting back into Dota after a 5-year break, and I forgot what little I knew, the first thing I did was look up some builds for the heroes I remember I had fun playing\ I'm almost entirely ignorant of how MOBA games work so forgive me if this is wrong. Wouldn't you still be fairly mechanically sound? Maybe not immediately but if you play something you have a good deal of experience in it should be easy to fall back in to with relative ease. I would think you'd fall in to the grouping of mid-level players given that assumption. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On August 11 2015 02:21 claybones wrote: I'm almost entirely ignorant of how MOBA games work so forgive me if this is wrong. Wouldn't you still be fairly mechanically sound? Maybe not immediately but if you play something you have a good deal of experience in it should be easy to fall back in to with relative ease. I would think you'd fall in to the grouping of mid-level players given that assumption. I can do about as much as anyone who knows the basic rules of the game and has had experience with SC2 or some other RTS (so you can control units, etc.) I needed to re-learn how to last-hit, when to go back, when not to go back, what the other heroes did, how my hero works... I played a bit of League in the intervening times (a string of 20-ish ranked games every 8 months or so), and my highest was Bronze 1, but even then League has different last hitting, no denying (in fact completely different support mechanics)... I knew only the essentials. | ||
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
Blizzard should make a mod for beginners in multiplayer, not only for build order but for anything going on in multiplatyer. A training platform where you learn the basic of scouting, the basic of classical timings, the micro tricks, and of course the build orders. well no point doing it now since LOTV ruins everything you have learned in sc2 until now, so one for lotv would be cool. | ||
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Cazimirbzh
334 Posts
For example, TL is the biggest sc2 community and you can see how well liquipedia is updated with BOs  Good idea, wrong timing :p @varsovie It also exist in some extend as semi or totally "illegal" ways. You can always write it down on a piece of paper, have someone behind you/skype telling you what to do (coaching), have a software on your computer telling you (hack/semi-hack or just video) or even have it on your phone... None of thiw ways are illegal | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On August 11 2015 02:40 Cazimirbzh wrote: We already have that, sc2scrapbook or even audioBO on youtube. The issue is that as sc2 is not finished it's impossible to build a real database(believe me, a lot of pple tried^^) For example, TL is the biggest sc2 community and you can see how well liquipedia is updated with BOs Good idea, wrong timing :p I'd do more for those awesome coins in my sig but I'm bad at the game so all I can do is general overviews like the General PvX Strategy articles or copy builds from the strategy section. | ||
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Cazimirbzh
334 Posts
Only korean are not bad a this game :p All we can is try to help because we love the game but atm there is not mutch to do except to wait for LOTV. edit: as soon as it strat running, i think we can hope some kind of combo with visual displays like scrapbook (when build what n text) and with audio option. | ||
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
On August 10 2015 20:48 DinoMight wrote: DotA has something helpful similar to this already and it's VERY good for beginners. The Hero Guides. Basically you can select from several build orders that are uploaded by people at the start of the game and the game walks you through them. Whenever you level up it highlights the next skill that you should put points into etc. Maybe something similar to "training mode" but with user uploaded builds. Awesome idea. With a continually changing meta it would be perfect if there was a "blank canvas", if you will, that Blizzard provides so that people can upload builds and share them into a upvote/downvote system. EDIT: Thanks to the OP for posting | ||
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grigorin
Austria275 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On August 11 2015 03:01 Cazimirbzh wrote: @[UoN]Sentinel Only korean are not bad a this game :p All we can is try to help because we love the game but atm there is not mutch to do except to wait for LOTV. HotS is in a really good state right now, now would actually be a good time to do builds. For example, I think between ASUS ROG and the tutorial video by PtitDrogo, there's enough to make a French PvZ guide. I might get on that, I've used it a bit, I obviously don't understand it at tournament level, but at least I know what's supposed to be going on at every stage. | ||
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DuckloadBlackra
225 Posts
On August 10 2015 20:31 djwaters22 wrote: It is not fun for a brand new player to be linked a website of specific build orders. Kids are lazy these days. So the way to fix this issue is by making another game mode named "Build Order Mode". This would be great for new players because they could learn very basic builds. Full story below--> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XskGb0ZkulU&feature=youtu.be This would be really good for high level players too who want to learn new builds. IMO this is the most important mode that's completely missing from SC2. It would be a huge help to people of all levels to implement something like this. Also give the option to the players to type in their own build order or import from a website or whatever and play through it. | ||
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Yiome
China1687 Posts
You can turn on this app at the start of the match and it will reminds you when to build what. http://sc2.163.com/fg/ ![[image loading]](http://sc2.nos.netease.com/1/style/images/minisite/fg/20141216/3.jpg) Weird blizzard themselves did not come up with something similar and put it ingame though.  Edit: add a pic of the build order training part of the app | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On August 11 2015 03:37 Yiome wrote: Blizzard's partner in China, Netease, actually made a mobile app that has a lot of useful builds. You can turn on this app at the start of the match and it will reminds you when to build what. http://sc2.163.com/fg/ + Show Spoiler + Weird blizzard themselves did not come up with something similar and put it ingame though. Edit: add a pic of the build order training part of the app I find it kinda funny that their picture of an assimilator is the depleted variety. | ||
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TiberiusAk
United States122 Posts
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djwaters22
112 Posts
battle.net: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/18301009470#1 reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/3gfjye/blizzard_add_a_learners_build_order_mode/ | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
edit: also I strongly agree with this, even if it's just vs AI or something. I recently found a couple of "audio builds" for a race I dont normally played and after a few tries I could almost nail a few elementary 2 base allins, which felt very rewarding. | ||
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djwaters22
112 Posts
On August 11 2015 07:19 neptunusfisk wrote: Just auto-add the most common build from the latest GSL, there should be statistical tools to automate that kinda thing right? :p edit: also I strongly agree with this, even if it's just vs AI or something. I recently found a couple of "audio builds" for a race I dont normally played and after a few tries I could almost nail a few elementary 2 base allins, which felt very rewarding. so many good ideas! | ||
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
On August 10 2015 20:58 Blargh wrote: Oh my god, yes. They absolutely need to implement one of these. This game needs it WAY more than any other game in existence. There needs to be something better than just watching a replay, and writing a build order down with supply for timings. As someone who has solid decision making, and macro/micro, the hardest part for me, especially for getting BACK into the game, is finding/coming up with a totally viable build order. When I come back to the game after long periods of time, I forget original build orders, and am not familiar with current metas. It would be so convenient for there to be an easy way to pick up recent build orders that pros have already refined, without the heavy and tedious replay analysis. I swear this is one of the best changes they can make for keeping a large casual userbase. Bold, italic, and underlined. Getting back into this game is a nightmare and the biggest reason by far, at least for me, is build orders EDIT: Just went on the Bnet post and voiced my support in a pretty lengthy response. I want this feature! | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8302 Posts
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
A few modifications to this mod and you essentially have what you're looking for. Google "Starcraft 2 build order tool" and you will have dozens of options to choose from. This has always felt like something the community would handle, not Blizzard. +$0.02 | ||
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djwaters22
112 Posts
On August 11 2015 09:30 TimeSpiral wrote: Or you could use the currently existing Benchmarker Extension mod by Solasce: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/460632-benchmarker-beta A few modifications to this mod and you essentially have what you're looking for. Google "Starcraft 2 build order tool" and you will have dozens of options to choose from. This has always felt like something the community would handle, not Blizzard. +$0.02 That is very cool indeed. I do think new players are to lazy to go out of the game though. I wish blizzard would use your model. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
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SecretSnail
France12 Posts
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djwaters22
112 Posts
On August 11 2015 15:04 SecretSnail wrote: What about lan mode ? Does this mean like two computers connected without internet? I use to have that on diablo 2 back in the day. | ||
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
On August 11 2015 15:07 djwaters22 wrote: Does this mean like two computers connected without internet? I use to have that on diablo 2 back in the day. Local Area Network. I think we're all over the LAN thing since the chant at BlizzCon of GIVE US LAN! GIVE US LAN! when that one team league or GSL finals didn't go over well. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 11 2015 16:03 Nuclease wrote: Local Area Network. I think we're all over the LAN thing since the chant at BlizzCon of GIVE US LAN! GIVE US LAN! when that one team league or GSL finals didn't go over well. prime vs startale never forget | ||
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
Indeed, indeed. One of the funniest moments in eSports I've ever witnessed that's for sure. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
Imagine you are a newbie and want to play this strategy game. Then you see, that there is this BO thing which asks you to play for the next minutes as the computer asks you. Do you feel like an actual player, or like a robot? | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On August 12 2015 02:19 [F_]aths wrote: I don't know if this is the best idea. Imagine you are a newbie and want to play this strategy game. Then you see, that there is this BO thing which asks you to play for the next minutes as the computer asks you. Do you feel like an actual player, or like a robot? The BO is mostly for the early game. Like up to a certain number of minutes, assuming there's no cheese or any other wacky shenanigans, it gets you X tech, Y units, Z bases, and possibly some sort of timing push. After that there might be loose guidelines but the player is left completely on their own on the "fun" part of the game - attacking, microing units around, etc. | ||
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On August 12 2015 03:28 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: When blizz doesn't advertise it, I usually don't see it. true. I've been saying it and I won't stop: The arcade/custom game needs an overhaul! | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On August 12 2015 03:18 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: The BO is mostly for the early game. Like up to a certain number of minutes, assuming there's no cheese or any other wacky shenanigans, it gets you X tech, Y units, Z bases, and possibly some sort of timing push. After that there might be loose guidelines but the player is left completely on their own on the "fun" part of the game - attacking, microing units around, etc. Why not starting the fun instantly? | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
Then turn off the build order and do as you please. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On August 12 2015 04:19 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Then turn off the build order and do as you please. If you want to play with a BO, you can print it out and attach it to the side of the monitor, or use a second monitor if you have one. How fun would it be to try out a new game and get commanded around by the game? Do you really would want Blizzard to put resources into developing something which could be viewed as distractive or pushy, instead of having the team working to improve the actual game? | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
Like say I'm playing terran and I wanted a build order that involves cloaked banshees. I put in "cloaked banshee" into the tool and it spits out a bunch of different builds that involves cloaked banshees and a rough estimate of when they would come out. And if you could combine criteria like "fast expand" and "cloaked banshee" together so the game does the calculation for you and gives you suggestions. Obviously it would be optimizing on a few parameters and not be ideal for the super high end meta game, but it would help players be alot more creative. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On August 12 2015 04:24 [F_]aths wrote: If you want to play with a BO, you can print it out and attach it to the side of the monitor, or use a second monitor if you have one. How fun would it be to try out a new game and get commanded around by the game? Do you really would want Blizzard to put resources into developing something which could be viewed as distractive or pushy, instead of having the team working to improve the actual game? Sure. When I play dota and the recommended items come up for me and it takes slightly more effort to go find other items that aren't in the build, I don't feel like the game or the author of the build is commanding me. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
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djwaters22
112 Posts
On August 12 2015 02:19 [F_]aths wrote: I don't know if this is the best idea. Imagine you are a newbie and want to play this strategy game. Then you see, that there is this BO thing which asks you to play for the next minutes as the computer asks you. Do you feel like an actual player, or like a robot? It's a great idea. If you are new how else will u find build orders? Plus it's not like you are forced to do it. If you want it, it's there, if not then you don't use it. Its just an extra feature. More features in games are always a good thing. | ||
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djwaters22
112 Posts
On August 12 2015 04:24 [F_]aths wrote: If you want to play with a BO, you can print it out and attach it to the side of the monitor, or use a second monitor if you have one. How fun would it be to try out a new game and get commanded around by the game? Do you really would want Blizzard to put resources into developing something which could be viewed as distractive or pushy, instead of having the team working to improve the actual game? I think you have the wrong idea totally. This mode is not something you are forced into. The same way you see Custom Game, Online, Arcade. below that would be a Build Order tab. It's not like you have to do something. It offers tools inside the game rather than alt tabbing to outside sources or scrolling threw the arcade. Things inside the game are always better. Destiny tried to make this silly story mode stuff on cards. But you had to go to an outside website to read the story. The point is it's outside the game and that is never good. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On August 12 2015 08:16 TimeSpiral wrote: Imagine a website, connecting the breadth and whole of human knowledge, that you could question at will, for free, and receive numerous relevant multimedia responses?! Imagine not being able to use this website because you're a bit busy playing SC2. | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On August 12 2015 08:10 djwaters22 wrote: It's a great idea. If you are new how else will u find build orders? Plus it's not like you are forced to do it. If you want it, it's there, if not then you don't use it. Its just an extra feature. More features in games are always a good thing. yeah. if you ever read the strategy section people are constantly coming back to the game or new to the game and they're asking about build orders, where to find them, if the ones in the help threads are updated, etc - and often they're not. plus not everyone is a teamliquid regular or knows how to tell guides from 2011 from recent meta. sc2 has an insane learning curve and for some people they might have no idea where to start. i know people who have played for years and still sit on one base making two gases and a roach warren because they just have no concept of game flow. it's not because they're idiots, it's because they're light players who don't watch pro games, and those players could really enjoy and benefit from a live action visual guide the idea that guides on how to play competitive 1v1 will be off putting because you're being "commanded what to do" is beyond insane. everyone who learns to play the game is taking direction from pro games, online guides, friends who are better than them, etc. hardly anyone is just going to intuitively climb the ladder based on their experience in bronze league because it's tedious and less efficient as for the argument that people can just find guides somewhere else, that's not an argument at all. don't give people convenience and quality of life features because they can figure out things in other, less convenient ways? ok lol, great way to treat the playerbase - "figure it out yourself" this scene's elitists are absolutely the worst thing about SC | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On August 12 2015 22:22 brickrd wrote: yeah. if you ever read the strategy section people are constantly coming back to the game or new to the game and they're asking about build orders, where to find them, if the ones in the help threads are updated, etc - and often they're not. plus not everyone is a teamliquid regular or knows how to tell guides from 2011 from recent meta. sc2 has an insane learning curve and for some people they might have no idea where to start. i know people who have played for years and still sit on one base making two gases and a roach warren because they just have no concept of game flow. it's not because they're idiots, it's because they're light players who don't watch pro games, and those players could really enjoy and benefit from a live action visual guide the idea that guides on how to play competitive 1v1 will be off putting because you're being "commanded what to do" is beyond insane. everyone who learns to play the game is taking direction from pro games, online guides, friends who are better than them, etc. hardly anyone is just going to intuitively climb the ladder based on their experience in bronze league because it's tedious and less efficient as for the argument that people can just find guides somewhere else, that's not an argument at all. don't give people convenience and quality of life features because they can figure out things in other, less convenient ways? ok lol, great way to treat the playerbase - "figure it out yourself" this scene's elitists are absolutely the worst thing about SC Very good post and points. I have played since the WOL beta and still have a hard time understanding game flow. I prefer this to not be a tutorial mode, because I find most tutorials I feel are bad. BUT just integrate yabot basically  or this idea of a "build order" maker or mode with lots of options | ||
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
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b3nd3r
Germany158 Posts
Not new but still a good idea but also maybe to late. | ||
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djwaters22
112 Posts
On August 13 2015 21:02 b3nd3r wrote: People were already suggesting or asking for it during WoL times and IMO it would have kept more active players at SC2. Not new but still a good idea but also maybe to late. lets do our best to get this idea heard! | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
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Shadowbite
United States16 Posts
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rigginssc2
18 Posts
Check them out and you can find ones with pretty much the exact same layout you are suggesting. They will check off a building as you make it. They will put up the building outline where you should make it. And the mod starts with you choosing what build you want to practice. I'm not saying it isn't a decent idea, it is, but even today you can do this. The cool NEW thing would be (a) Blizzard providing easy access to it under "Training" and (b) Blizzard updating the builds week-to-week as new builds surface via the meta - possibly with a youtube link to a game showing it being used, and even then ideally a first person vod and (c) a replay of the build would be the icing on the cake. | ||
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Dumbledore
Sweden725 Posts
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djwaters22
112 Posts
On August 15 2015 18:22 Dumbledore wrote: What's up with the illusion that you have to follow some kind of build order to play? Especially if you are in lower leagues? :S theres no illusion but it definitely helps. Nearly everyone starst with basic things like 15 hatch or 12 baracks, etc | ||
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Hatsu
United Kingdom474 Posts
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Robzi
Sweden34 Posts
On August 15 2015 18:22 Dumbledore wrote: What's up with the illusion that you have to follow some kind of build order to play? Especially if you are in lower leagues? :S Yeah, I have never followed any build order (in the sense that I don't follow anyone else's supply-ordered build) and got a good win ratio in diamond as terran. But I guess I catch a lot of stuff from watching pro-games. | ||
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xtorn
4060 Posts
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Garemie
United States248 Posts
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Aron Times
United States312 Posts
Edit: Relevant link. Edit 2: Another relevant link. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
It's similar here where players like the choice of different playstyles associated with races, but would like to tap into their strength and ability by knowing the ideal ways to play that race. Otherwise, it becomes overwhelming. It's even more overwhelming when the other player is more informed on the traditionalism of certian openings or playstyles expected from the race. I think selective freedom is the keyword here. Have a selection of build orders to choose from and being able to execute them is the freedom of choice, but also the assistance to be able to do them remotely properly. Options are good and this build order tool can be used or ignored, it doesn't hinder a player's enjoyment. If anything, it raises the quality of games and the players involved; they can either learn from the builds or use them as a relief to not have to worry about remembering or memorizing timings and build orders and can just play the game via mechanical execution and playing on what they see. | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
But seriously i cant hear it any more. Why should you want to attract those people to starcraft? starcraft is a game for kings and not for pawns. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On August 15 2015 23:38 Robzi wrote: Yeah, I have never followed any build order (in the sense that I don't follow anyone else's supply-ordered build) and got a good win ratio in diamond as terran. But I guess I catch a lot of stuff from watching pro-games. the idea isn't that you absolutely must create a supply depot at 5:23 on 43 supply or whatever, it should be geared more at general goals of expanding at a certain rate and avoiding supply blocks. the question of "do you need a build order" is an old and tired debate which misses the point. opening build orders (up to 20 supply or so) and general expand timings are an important part of playing a tight game if youre interested in competing and improving if you play in low leagues and don't care about improving beyond vaguely imitating pro games then great, i guess this idea isn't for you? but it's disingenuous to suggest that it's somehow restrictive or wrong to teach builds to people. a build is not and should not just be a sequence of numbers, it should be a game plan for establishing a certain economy and pushing at a certain point On August 19 2015 06:38 bypLy wrote: i think what we really need is a "noob" mode. and guess what: in these mode you do absolutley nothing because everything is done by some "mechanics". That would be quite appealing for todays kiddies. But seriously i cant hear it any more. Why should you want to attract those people to starcraft? starcraft is a game for kings and not for pawns. lol ok. i'm sure you played your first game and immediately started beating professionals without any practice tools or reference guides. honestly i would rather play a game "for pawns" that's friendly and encourages people to have fun playing and get better than a game where people like you measure their dicks based on the fact that you've trained your RTS mechanics for years and memorized the correct way to play. if that's how you measure you value as a gamer then good for you. a lot of us are trying to be part of a community of human beings | ||
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