EPTZerg real problem with mass carrier+how to fix - Page 5
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crazedrat
272 Posts
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ETisME
12627 Posts
But i wonder what can be the fix? The style just involves lots of cannons and turtling with unfun micro interaction | ||
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crazedrat
272 Posts
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On August 07 2015 01:46 Railgan wrote: would like to throw this gif into the discussion of me playing against mass carrier http://gfycat.com/DirectOfficialGuernseycow Lol this Protoss has no concept of unit positioning lol  | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On September 24 2015 01:18 crazedrat wrote: Even without the release interceptor protoss air is too strong. Mass PB might help along with corruptor, but it is such a dumb unit composition. Possibly give corruptors a better ability, because the one they have now is pretty useless. Maybe change the voidray to do less damage vs. armored. I don't see why Protoss needs this unit to focus down armored. ? Because of roaches. How else are you gonna kill them if you open air? | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
Without that ability, zerg seems alright i think, at least much closer to balance. They can do well with economy and vipers are extremely strong Possibly give corruptors a better ability, because the one they have now is pretty useless I've actually had some really good zergs screw me over with that. There was a kinda bad engagement where toss retreated to cannons and corruptors flew into toss base and ate the stargate pylons and fleet beacon then flew out again. In this particular case it abuses zerg being able to remax fairly fast while protoss needs to produce over time and losing 1 minute of production time can be deadly. They can also contribute heavily to crushing a nexus and/or static defenses instead of floating around doing nothing Because of roaches. How else are you gonna kill them if you open air? As funny as it sounds, ultralisks too. Phoenix can't hit them, unupgraded ground units do not work at all against buffed crackling/ultra and carriers do half a damage to them because of their armor level. I don't know how good it actually is but some people do it at master level. Void rays are not that amazing of a unit and the anti-armor damage mainly stands out against corruptors because corruptors can't AA well; if he's going VR heavy it's beneficial to play hydra-viper-spore-queen. Me+friend mainly mix in VR's as a response to corruptors and/or ultralisks. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
On September 24 2015 02:12 DinoMight wrote: How does anyone manage to get to mass carrier playing against Lurker/Hydra pushes? We open 2gate adept - warp prism - phoenix against zerg to take a third nexus with few ground units and gateways Playing against weaker zergs but they usually walk into a carrier blob and come to the painful realization that lurkers don't shoot up | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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wrj
219 Posts
1)you will always fight more than 8 interceptors in fight but if it end fast enough it does not really matter but let me explain you what the most op thing about it: 2)if release interceptors was pure harass toll il be okey with it but problem is,it makes killing carrier not worth it.Thing is if i kill the carrier il still have to take the damage of the 8 interceptors during the fight,which means even if i was playing agiant 15 carriers and kill 5 i still fight aginest 8*15 interceptors and that the thing that really make it op and you know its possible to tell me like okey just go back and let interceptors die so okey,but what happen if this fight happens on your main base,i cant just run and guys let be honest here,does it sound logic to anyone that i fight 15 carriers when 5 already die? A must nerf to carrier will be if the carrier die,the interceptors will die even if got released and if its not enough make that after interceptors released,the carrier cant build new one untill they all die however unlike toss guys il be a fair and say that it might be too big nerf and dont wana carrier to be over nerfed so first nerf is must and if its not enough or blizzard will want to nerf a bit the harass of the carrier they can use the second nerf too so toss will not send 10 carrier for harass,5 will harass and 5 will def base and this is really a fair nerf. Unlike people who enjoy the abuse of carrier i act like a fair player,i ask for minimal and rational nerf same as i ask for nerf the broodlord+lurker+viper+corrupter combo cuz this is op as well vs terran so stop abusing stuff cuz you play protoss and admit somethings are op! | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
Unlike people who enjoy the abuse of carrier i act like a fair player,i ask for minimal and rational nerf same as i ask for nerf the broodlord+lurker+viper+corrupter combo cuz this is op as well vs terran so stop abusing stuff cuz you play protoss and admit somethings are op! I ask that they change it to an extention of your control of the 8 interceptors that you already have, there seems like no justification for the following stuff to happen: interceptors no longer having leash range interceptors no longer having control interceptors no longer dieing when carrier dies 8 interceptor cap per carrier bypassed interceptors exploding and costing 200 minerals per carrier per release to replace (this actually costs a LOT, oftentimes you're a little broke but it's like hey, just wait for 2k minerals before building any vital infrastructure or expanding because you have no interceptors) If the release interceptor just acts as a way to control the interceptors that you already have (like being able to launch them at a ground location instead of a unit/building and then controlling them as normal, keeping leash range, not staying out or blowing up automatically etc) it would be a fun extension to micro and improve the ability and usability of the unit without buffing the combat or economic stats of it, it wouldn't have most of the problems that the weird new release interceptor mechanic has. | ||
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wrj
219 Posts
On September 24 2015 02:33 ROOTFayth wrote: I personally don't make phoenix lately when I do that, I open 1g expo, add another gate, wp harass with 4 adepts while getting my 3rd and adding 3 stargates, usually I have 3 carriers out by the time a lurker push gets to my base, and then it's auto win because lurker not very good vs carrier Yea thats what people dont understand sometimes you cant delay the carrier like best open i see is 2 gate adepts which force zerg to get the extra ling while getting mothership core which def any drops and getting 1 oracle out which force zerg for even more safe play and when i wana counter attack he already has 2 carrier and on some maps even 3 bases so people who think its that ez to hold out,dont understand nothing about zvp mass carrier! | ||
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wrj
219 Posts
On September 24 2015 02:39 Cyro wrote: I poke fun at the ones who are facing master-gm opponents and going straight lurker without scouting third base or inbase tech, there's been at least half a dozen of them so far. Lurkers are really good against ground though I ask that they change it to an extention of your control of the 8 interceptors that you already have, there seems like no justification for the following stuff to happen: interceptors no longer having leash range interceptors no longer having control interceptors no longer dieing when carrier dies 8 interceptor cap per carrier bypassed interceptors exploding and costing 200 minerals per carrier per release to replace (this actually costs a LOT, oftentimes you're a little broke but it's like hey, just wait for 2k minerals before building any vital infrastructure or expanding because you have no interceptors) If the release interceptor just acts as a way to control the interceptors that you already have (like being able to launch them at a ground location instead of a unit/building and then controlling them as normal, keeping leash range, not staying out or blowing up automatically etc) it would be a fun extension to micro and improve the ability and usability of the unit without buffing the combat or economic stats of it, it wouldn't have most of the problems that the weird new release interceptor mechanic has. These are exactly the main problems and there is not even 1 good reason to keep them on the game and i am sure 90% of protoss players also think that! | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
On September 24 2015 02:56 wrj wrote: These are exactly the main problems and there is not even 1 good reason to keep them on the game and i am sure 90% of protoss players also think that! I'm protoss player | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
While spire is building, make 6 roaches. Have them wait outside the protoss natural. When spire finishes, make all mutas. That should be 9 mutas. You can afford 6 roaches and 9 mutas at this time by not building a 4th base yet, and by not starting any upgrades yet. Attack the natural with lings, roaches, and possibly the mutas too, or fly the mutas into the main base. Retreat from photon overcharges. Kill probes, pylons, and pick off units. The game would probably just end, but I would be following it up with a 4th base, hydras, and double evo chamber upgrades for hydra, in anticipation of stalker/phoenix. A 1-1 hydra timing would certainly end the game if the mutas didn't. I don't know why you'd go on to judge anything after that. You had problems fighting his carriers head on, especially when backed up by cannons, photon overcharges, and stasis wards, and when he releases interceptors and you stay and fight there anyway, but so what? He got to that point by taking a huge risk that you didn't punish. Protoss can't expect to consistently play games out like that. I don't know how you can play a game like that and be concerned about carriers. The game isn't all about unit strength and unit counters. Strategy and macro matters too. You can't look at units in unrealistic situations or in vacuums in order to judge their role in a balanced matchup. For now, take the easy win against the unsafe player. Time will tell if protoss can consistently make an overpowered composition without taking any risks and without outplaying his opponent. | ||
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TRxArce
United States1 Post
Here are a few things he did to combat them. First he massed ravangers with the upgraded range ability, and used them effectively to "zone" out carriers; repeatedly, they have to pull back to dodge the bile attacks. Next, he made a strong tech swap towards zerglings with the adrenal glands upgrade. Punishing the lack of mobility in carriers, he was able to effectively utilize run-bys and nexus snipes to keep the protoss "gas locked." Even if you lose every zergling, denying one base worth of gas substantially weakens the ability of protoss to mass carriers. Finally, when it became clear that protoss was not going to be able to secure more bases against mass zergling run-bys and be aggressive with carriers, it was up to the protoss to trade armies efficiently with the zerg. In this instance, every single carrier lost is vital...yet it's very difficult to keep them alive against constant corrosive bile. Finally, a staple of any protoss going mass carrier is mass photon cannons -- if they do the strategy of unloading interceptors and "recall" to a base, there surely has to be mass photon cannons at said base to defend the interceptor-less carriers. Well, what is incredibly cost efficient against cannons? Corrosive bile, which effectively out-ranges them. I really do think mass ravanger and speedlings will become the most common way to hold carriers. Don't worry about denying bases, at first--it's more important to get critical mass ravangers. Do it later with speedlings when you have the insane adrenal upgrade, and keep the game prolonged and going in your favor by zoning with bile. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
Next, he made a strong tech swap towards zerglings with the adrenal glands upgrade Cracklings are insane at the moment (didn't the upgrade get doubled in effectiveness? I'm not sure if that was actually implemented) and many protoss making strong air plays won't casually have the upgrades and buildings to do anything but continue what they're doing and hope for the best There are 2 types of zerg games, games where zerg fucks me with cracklings and games where zerg doesn't get ground attack upgrades | ||
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crazedrat
272 Posts
On September 24 2015 02:04 CheddarToss wrote: Because of roaches. How else are you gonna kill them if you open air? Well thats the point; Protoss shouldn't be able to kill every single unit with just a stargate. Maybe they should need immortals against roaches, or some kind of storm or robo tech. The stargate is just a swiss army pocket knife of ways to kill Zerg you don't even need another structure. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
Well the point is Protoss shouldn't be able to kill every single unit with just a stargate. Why not? That's like saying that terran shouldn't be able to kill every single unit with mech. If a set of units has their own independant upgrades, production and researches then i don't see any problem. It's not like people are not using a ton of templar to heavily support air toss - it's too good against hydralisk+viper to ignore due to storm and feedback shutting down some of the hardest carrier counters. Our games typically involve quite a lot of dark templar and zealots for base control and multi-pronged harassment too. | ||
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