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Right now Stephano is wrecking a greedy Protoss, who went straight for Carriers, with speedlings only. :D
Edit: after the very successful speedling runbys, he made a lot of Queens and spores at home and just won the game. It was hilarious to watch.
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this problem wouldnt exist if hydras were tier 1.5 and 1 supply like they should always have been before DB started to put his "more HP and terrible damage" design philosophy to SC2
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On September 22 2015 00:06 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 23:58 BisuDagger wrote:On September 21 2015 23:51 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 23:35 BisuDagger wrote:
In a comparison, it seems like casting abilities are available in both games. Suicide scourge really make a difference though. I'm not sure anything in the SC2 Zerg arsenal can equal that level of air dps.
When was the last time someone made Carriers vs Zerg in BW? As far as I know it is not a viable strat, given how hard they are countered by scourge. And you can't make scouts to shoot down scourge, because the missiles are too slow. Scourge hit their targets regardless. Carriers shouldn't be unusable in LotV PvZ like they are in BW PvZ. There was one pro game a couple months ago that used carriers, but yeah scourge shutdown the ability to go carriers or arbiter. SC2 doesn't need that as you mention. I think an upgrade buff to infestor range should work. And maybe dmg upgrade for infested terrans. I don't like that. I can foresee that being absurdly OP in combination with Lurkers, maybe even with BLs. I would prefer an upgrade for Hydras that would increase their AA damage. That would also help Zerg against Terran air. Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 00:05 wrj wrote:
Button line is,its not winnable on late game atm It is. It is even winnable on higher levels of skill (GM) let alone on lower ones, where balance is rarely the deciding factor. The key is having a lot of hydras and doing speedling harass and denying expos. You have to choke the Protoss and let him run out of minerals, and not play a NR30 game where at the end you engage his air army head on.
So TLDR you are saying, don't let them get carriers. Well that mentality worked wonders in WOL didnt it? You can't have a unit comp which is unbeatable or absurdly strong, it will produce bad gameplay.
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On September 22 2015 01:12 kiLen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 00:06 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 23:58 BisuDagger wrote:On September 21 2015 23:51 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 23:35 BisuDagger wrote:
In a comparison, it seems like casting abilities are available in both games. Suicide scourge really make a difference though. I'm not sure anything in the SC2 Zerg arsenal can equal that level of air dps.
When was the last time someone made Carriers vs Zerg in BW? As far as I know it is not a viable strat, given how hard they are countered by scourge. And you can't make scouts to shoot down scourge, because the missiles are too slow. Scourge hit their targets regardless. Carriers shouldn't be unusable in LotV PvZ like they are in BW PvZ. There was one pro game a couple months ago that used carriers, but yeah scourge shutdown the ability to go carriers or arbiter. SC2 doesn't need that as you mention. I think an upgrade buff to infestor range should work. And maybe dmg upgrade for infested terrans. I don't like that. I can foresee that being absurdly OP in combination with Lurkers, maybe even with BLs. I would prefer an upgrade for Hydras that would increase their AA damage. That would also help Zerg against Terran air. On September 22 2015 00:05 wrj wrote:
Button line is,its not winnable on late game atm It is. It is even winnable on higher levels of skill (GM) let alone on lower ones, where balance is rarely the deciding factor. The key is having a lot of hydras and doing speedling harass and denying expos. You have to choke the Protoss and let him run out of minerals, and not play a NR30 game where at the end you engage his air army head on. So TLDR you are saying, don't let them get carriers. Well that mentality worked wonders in WOL didnt it? You can't have a unit comp which is unbeatable or absurdly strong, it will produce bad gameplay.
Yes, that's what I'm saying you should be doing for now. The game is not even close to balanced in the earlier stages of the game, so why would you expect the late game to be balanced? Let Blizz do their work at balancing the most obvious issues and after those are taken care of, they will surely do something about Carriers, if they prove to be OP.
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On September 22 2015 01:25 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 01:12 kiLen wrote:On September 22 2015 00:06 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 23:58 BisuDagger wrote:On September 21 2015 23:51 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 23:35 BisuDagger wrote:
In a comparison, it seems like casting abilities are available in both games. Suicide scourge really make a difference though. I'm not sure anything in the SC2 Zerg arsenal can equal that level of air dps.
When was the last time someone made Carriers vs Zerg in BW? As far as I know it is not a viable strat, given how hard they are countered by scourge. And you can't make scouts to shoot down scourge, because the missiles are too slow. Scourge hit their targets regardless. Carriers shouldn't be unusable in LotV PvZ like they are in BW PvZ. There was one pro game a couple months ago that used carriers, but yeah scourge shutdown the ability to go carriers or arbiter. SC2 doesn't need that as you mention. I think an upgrade buff to infestor range should work. And maybe dmg upgrade for infested terrans. I don't like that. I can foresee that being absurdly OP in combination with Lurkers, maybe even with BLs. I would prefer an upgrade for Hydras that would increase their AA damage. That would also help Zerg against Terran air. On September 22 2015 00:05 wrj wrote:
Button line is,its not winnable on late game atm It is. It is even winnable on higher levels of skill (GM) let alone on lower ones, where balance is rarely the deciding factor. The key is having a lot of hydras and doing speedling harass and denying expos. You have to choke the Protoss and let him run out of minerals, and not play a NR30 game where at the end you engage his air army head on. So TLDR you are saying, don't let them get carriers. Well that mentality worked wonders in WOL didnt it? You can't have a unit comp which is unbeatable or absurdly strong, it will produce bad gameplay. Yes, that's what I'm saying you should be doing for now. The game is not even close to balanced in the earlier stages of the game, so why would you expect the late game to be balanced? Let Blizz do their work at balancing the most obvious issues and after those are taken care of, they will surely do something about Carriers, if they prove to be OP.
Sorry we try to change things.Carrier were op on HOTS as well and bliz didnt fix it and even if you didnt see them alot on HOTS,its mean it need to be op?so sorry if i dont trust bliz to fix stuff here.For real man swarm host were op for 1.5 year till fixed so unless we do something now it will be the same with carrier-2 years op till they fix it
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Despite the balance issues, my biggest problem with airtoss is actually that I hate playing against it. It's boring. Really, really boring. The fight isn't even fun. It's a clumsy dumb fight. It takes 20 minutes to lead up to the fight. The whole time you're building these stupid unit compositions (pure corruptor spores and spines? That's the best we can balance this game toward?). 20 minutes the game itself is also boring, you just mass units and take bases. It's not rewarding to play at all. I don't know why protoss even enjoy this style. Even if it's strongest, as a protoss I would not play it. 20 m inutes... win or lose, next game. 20 minutes... repeat. I hate every game I play against this style, please balance it and make it more interesting somehow.
The bigger problem than mass carrier is when archon, tempest, carrier, voidray, mothership, storm. Zerg has nothing to deal with this. Closest counter I know is few broodlord, 3/3 corruptor, few viper, few infestor (NP mothership if possible), mass spores and spines, good attacks throughout the game... and if you can afford a double engage and kill a base, you may be alright. But not even guaranteed.
Mass speedling does work on some maps, not on all maps.
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On September 22 2015 00:43 summerloud wrote:
this problem wouldnt exist if hydras were tier 1.5 and 1 supply like they should always have been before DB started to put his "more HP and terrible damage" design philosophy to SC2
Nope, there is still 2supply storm. The reason why clumping low HP units will never be the solution to anything in ZvP endgame.
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On September 22 2015 01:39 crazedrat wrote:
WHen you attack the carriers with mass corruptor, make sure you divide your corruptors into groups so that they aren't all focusing a single carrier at once. You should be picking off carriers at least 2 at a time. Also you can add spores and spines, overmax, and then make sure to double max. You need like 7 bases really. And get some ultras, like 3 or 4 depending. Make sure to spread out the corruptor.... Etc.
I don't have a problem with mass carrier the bigger problem is when they have archon, tempest, carrier, ~voidray~, mothership, storm. It's ultra lategame but Zerg has nothing to deal with this. Feedback your viper, vortex your corruptors, shoot you down from a distance, no way to stop them expanding... It's ridiculous.
Closest counter I know is few broodlord, 3/3 corruptor, few viper, few infestor (NP mothership if possible), mass spores and spines, good attacks throughout the game... and if you can afford a double engage and kill a base, you may be alright.
Despite the balance issues, my biggest problem with airtoss is actually that I hate playing against it. It's boring. Really, really boring. The fight isn't even fun. It's a clumsy dumb fight. It takes 20 minutes to lead up to the fight. The whole time you're building these stupid unit compositions (pure corruiptor and spores and spines? That's the best you can?). 20 minutes the game itself is also boring, you just mass units and take bases. It's not rewarding to play at all. I don't know why protoss even enjoy this style. Even if it's strongest, as a protoss I would not play it. 20 m inutes... win or lose, next game. 20 minutes... repeat. I hate every game I play against this style, please balance it and make it more interesting somehow.
Yea i kinda agree but some people just stick to the "dont let him get there"when its not always possible and thats why they dont fix it.A good exapmple is the liberator,it took bliz for so long to fix it when 90% of the community agree thats its op so how long you think will it take when only half of the people agree on it.I expect it to be fixed in 2 years
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On September 22 2015 01:39 wrj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 01:25 CheddarToss wrote:On September 22 2015 01:12 kiLen wrote:On September 22 2015 00:06 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 23:58 BisuDagger wrote:On September 21 2015 23:51 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 23:35 BisuDagger wrote:
In a comparison, it seems like casting abilities are available in both games. Suicide scourge really make a difference though. I'm not sure anything in the SC2 Zerg arsenal can equal that level of air dps.
When was the last time someone made Carriers vs Zerg in BW? As far as I know it is not a viable strat, given how hard they are countered by scourge. And you can't make scouts to shoot down scourge, because the missiles are too slow. Scourge hit their targets regardless. Carriers shouldn't be unusable in LotV PvZ like they are in BW PvZ. There was one pro game a couple months ago that used carriers, but yeah scourge shutdown the ability to go carriers or arbiter. SC2 doesn't need that as you mention. I think an upgrade buff to infestor range should work. And maybe dmg upgrade for infested terrans. I don't like that. I can foresee that being absurdly OP in combination with Lurkers, maybe even with BLs. I would prefer an upgrade for Hydras that would increase their AA damage. That would also help Zerg against Terran air. On September 22 2015 00:05 wrj wrote:
Button line is,its not winnable on late game atm It is. It is even winnable on higher levels of skill (GM) let alone on lower ones, where balance is rarely the deciding factor. The key is having a lot of hydras and doing speedling harass and denying expos. You have to choke the Protoss and let him run out of minerals, and not play a NR30 game where at the end you engage his air army head on. So TLDR you are saying, don't let them get carriers. Well that mentality worked wonders in WOL didnt it? You can't have a unit comp which is unbeatable or absurdly strong, it will produce bad gameplay. Yes, that's what I'm saying you should be doing for now. The game is not even close to balanced in the earlier stages of the game, so why would you expect the late game to be balanced? Let Blizz do their work at balancing the most obvious issues and after those are taken care of, they will surely do something about Carriers, if they prove to be OP. Sorry we try to change things.Carrier were op on HOTS as well and bliz didnt fix it and even if you didnt see them alot on HOTS,its mean it need to be op?so sorry if i dont trust bliz to fix stuff here.For real man swarm host were op for 1.5 year till fixed so unless we do something now it will be the same with carrier-2 years op till they fix it
Your attempt to change the late game of a game in beta is misguided.
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I actually had some success against .. an okay player who went for mass air by going ling with melee upgrades and mutas with carapace. He was forced to switch into phoenix; but since he had cannon and not stalkers, he had no ability to counterattack against the mutas. I added corruptor and continued the harass. His carrier production was greatly set back by the phoenix switch and the mutas can really circumvent and pick off probes in the meantime, along with the corruptor it does very well. Anyway, after it's done he's got a bunch of phoenix and I've got alot of lings with a decent flock of mutas and then corruptors, and he couldnt take his fourth against the lings. Also gave me good chances to harass his slow carriers couldnt deal with it, and also justified the corruptors existence made them potent. So I am trying more of that. On some maps you can just kill the 3rd with roach hydra ling, too, it is very map dependent. I can see the mass ling doing well on bridgehead and Terraform especially. But this was on Lerilak the mutas. I think probably on ruins it would do well, on orbital it is dubious I think turtle on orbital. Orbital is a bad map for Zerg really. moonlight I do not konw, probably turtle that or muta.
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On September 22 2015 01:52 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 01:39 wrj wrote:On September 22 2015 01:25 CheddarToss wrote:On September 22 2015 01:12 kiLen wrote:On September 22 2015 00:06 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 23:58 BisuDagger wrote:On September 21 2015 23:51 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 23:35 BisuDagger wrote:
In a comparison, it seems like casting abilities are available in both games. Suicide scourge really make a difference though. I'm not sure anything in the SC2 Zerg arsenal can equal that level of air dps.
When was the last time someone made Carriers vs Zerg in BW? As far as I know it is not a viable strat, given how hard they are countered by scourge. And you can't make scouts to shoot down scourge, because the missiles are too slow. Scourge hit their targets regardless. Carriers shouldn't be unusable in LotV PvZ like they are in BW PvZ. There was one pro game a couple months ago that used carriers, but yeah scourge shutdown the ability to go carriers or arbiter. SC2 doesn't need that as you mention. I think an upgrade buff to infestor range should work. And maybe dmg upgrade for infested terrans. I don't like that. I can foresee that being absurdly OP in combination with Lurkers, maybe even with BLs. I would prefer an upgrade for Hydras that would increase their AA damage. That would also help Zerg against Terran air. On September 22 2015 00:05 wrj wrote:
Button line is,its not winnable on late game atm It is. It is even winnable on higher levels of skill (GM) let alone on lower ones, where balance is rarely the deciding factor. The key is having a lot of hydras and doing speedling harass and denying expos. You have to choke the Protoss and let him run out of minerals, and not play a NR30 game where at the end you engage his air army head on. So TLDR you are saying, don't let them get carriers. Well that mentality worked wonders in WOL didnt it? You can't have a unit comp which is unbeatable or absurdly strong, it will produce bad gameplay. Yes, that's what I'm saying you should be doing for now. The game is not even close to balanced in the earlier stages of the game, so why would you expect the late game to be balanced? Let Blizz do their work at balancing the most obvious issues and after those are taken care of, they will surely do something about Carriers, if they prove to be OP. Sorry we try to change things.Carrier were op on HOTS as well and bliz didnt fix it and even if you didnt see them alot on HOTS,its mean it need to be op?so sorry if i dont trust bliz to fix stuff here.For real man swarm host were op for 1.5 year till fixed so unless we do something now it will be the same with carrier-2 years op till they fix it Your attempt to change the late game of a game in beta is misguided.
Do people read commends or what,i give feedback about op things on the beta so they change it whats wrong on it
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On September 22 2015 02:27 wrj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 01:52 CheddarToss wrote:On September 22 2015 01:39 wrj wrote:On September 22 2015 01:25 CheddarToss wrote:On September 22 2015 01:12 kiLen wrote:On September 22 2015 00:06 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 23:58 BisuDagger wrote:On September 21 2015 23:51 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 23:35 BisuDagger wrote:
In a comparison, it seems like casting abilities are available in both games. Suicide scourge really make a difference though. I'm not sure anything in the SC2 Zerg arsenal can equal that level of air dps.
When was the last time someone made Carriers vs Zerg in BW? As far as I know it is not a viable strat, given how hard they are countered by scourge. And you can't make scouts to shoot down scourge, because the missiles are too slow. Scourge hit their targets regardless. Carriers shouldn't be unusable in LotV PvZ like they are in BW PvZ. There was one pro game a couple months ago that used carriers, but yeah scourge shutdown the ability to go carriers or arbiter. SC2 doesn't need that as you mention. I think an upgrade buff to infestor range should work. And maybe dmg upgrade for infested terrans. I don't like that. I can foresee that being absurdly OP in combination with Lurkers, maybe even with BLs. I would prefer an upgrade for Hydras that would increase their AA damage. That would also help Zerg against Terran air. On September 22 2015 00:05 wrj wrote:
Button line is,its not winnable on late game atm It is. It is even winnable on higher levels of skill (GM) let alone on lower ones, where balance is rarely the deciding factor. The key is having a lot of hydras and doing speedling harass and denying expos. You have to choke the Protoss and let him run out of minerals, and not play a NR30 game where at the end you engage his air army head on. So TLDR you are saying, don't let them get carriers. Well that mentality worked wonders in WOL didnt it? You can't have a unit comp which is unbeatable or absurdly strong, it will produce bad gameplay. Yes, that's what I'm saying you should be doing for now. The game is not even close to balanced in the earlier stages of the game, so why would you expect the late game to be balanced? Let Blizz do their work at balancing the most obvious issues and after those are taken care of, they will surely do something about Carriers, if they prove to be OP. Sorry we try to change things.Carrier were op on HOTS as well and bliz didnt fix it and even if you didnt see them alot on HOTS,its mean it need to be op?so sorry if i dont trust bliz to fix stuff here.For real man swarm host were op for 1.5 year till fixed so unless we do something now it will be the same with carrier-2 years op till they fix it Your attempt to change the late game of a game in beta is misguided. Do people read commends or what,i give feedback about op things on the beta so they change it whats wrong on it
Your replay is not proof of Carriers being OP, that is what's wrong with it. People have given you good advice on how to deal with Carriers, yet you prefer to ignore it and keep whining.
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On September 22 2015 02:31 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 02:27 wrj wrote:On September 22 2015 01:52 CheddarToss wrote:On September 22 2015 01:39 wrj wrote:On September 22 2015 01:25 CheddarToss wrote:On September 22 2015 01:12 kiLen wrote:On September 22 2015 00:06 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 23:58 BisuDagger wrote:On September 21 2015 23:51 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 23:35 BisuDagger wrote:
In a comparison, it seems like casting abilities are available in both games. Suicide scourge really make a difference though. I'm not sure anything in the SC2 Zerg arsenal can equal that level of air dps.
When was the last time someone made Carriers vs Zerg in BW? As far as I know it is not a viable strat, given how hard they are countered by scourge. And you can't make scouts to shoot down scourge, because the missiles are too slow. Scourge hit their targets regardless. Carriers shouldn't be unusable in LotV PvZ like they are in BW PvZ. There was one pro game a couple months ago that used carriers, but yeah scourge shutdown the ability to go carriers or arbiter. SC2 doesn't need that as you mention. I think an upgrade buff to infestor range should work. And maybe dmg upgrade for infested terrans. I don't like that. I can foresee that being absurdly OP in combination with Lurkers, maybe even with BLs. I would prefer an upgrade for Hydras that would increase their AA damage. That would also help Zerg against Terran air. On September 22 2015 00:05 wrj wrote:
Button line is,its not winnable on late game atm It is. It is even winnable on higher levels of skill (GM) let alone on lower ones, where balance is rarely the deciding factor. The key is having a lot of hydras and doing speedling harass and denying expos. You have to choke the Protoss and let him run out of minerals, and not play a NR30 game where at the end you engage his air army head on. So TLDR you are saying, don't let them get carriers. Well that mentality worked wonders in WOL didnt it? You can't have a unit comp which is unbeatable or absurdly strong, it will produce bad gameplay. Yes, that's what I'm saying you should be doing for now. The game is not even close to balanced in the earlier stages of the game, so why would you expect the late game to be balanced? Let Blizz do their work at balancing the most obvious issues and after those are taken care of, they will surely do something about Carriers, if they prove to be OP. Sorry we try to change things.Carrier were op on HOTS as well and bliz didnt fix it and even if you didnt see them alot on HOTS,its mean it need to be op?so sorry if i dont trust bliz to fix stuff here.For real man swarm host were op for 1.5 year till fixed so unless we do something now it will be the same with carrier-2 years op till they fix it Your attempt to change the late game of a game in beta is misguided. Do people read commends or what,i give feedback about op things on the beta so they change it whats wrong on it Your replay is not proof of Carriers being OP, that is what's wrong with it. People have given you good advice on how to deal with Carriers, yet you prefer to ignore it and keep whining.
I tried their advices,i tried hydra but it fail when 5+ carrier,i did mass corrupter and some viper,i added ultra to deal with the ground and it fail so its op man its op.When broordlord+infestor was nerf every zerg addmited its op and told it to bliz and now when carrier is op,there is a complete silnce about it from protoss side,so sad really...
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Both terrain and zerg have problem with mass carriers simply due to release interceptor providing already cost efficient carriers a way to attack without putting itself in danger
Combine that with build time and there you go
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Just had to register to share my fun little experience with carriers.
So you guys remember Ultralisk with the new 8 armor in LotV? And the interceptors only deal rapid small zaps?
I tried letting a carrier attack an ultralisk ( both with full upgrades) and it took a solid ONE MINUTE to get to half health lol.
So from now on I'll just utilize >5 ultralisk with queen and hydra support to wreck his base as it's very unlikely that the toss has a formidable force on the ground (and even if he does, ultralisk :v ), while constantly expand and producing corruptors and brood lords.
Also the ultra comes out just as the carrier get full potential anw.
Edit: The only real threat is void rays which I'm more than happy to trade most my hydras for.
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Blizz wanted to take the carrier out, but this community cried no and now we have this shit to deal with. The problem with toss air is they have an air unit that can handle everything you can do. Incredible range with tempest, incredible DPS from carrier, anti air phoenix, destroy any armored voidray, oracles = anti zergling machines, mothership beats mass. Toss need one less air unit. I would remove the voidray. I don't see much point in the voidray.
On September 22 2015 04:13 DanteSSS wrote:
Just had to register to share my fun little experience with carriers.
So you guys remember Ultralisk with the new 8 armor in LotV? And the interceptors only deal rapid small zaps?
I tried letting a carrier attack an ultralisk ( both with full upgrades) and it took a solid ONE MINUTE to get to half health lol.
So from now on I'll just utilize >5 ultralisk with queen and hydra support to wreck his base as it's very unlikely that the toss has a formidable force on the ground (and even if he does, ultralisk :v ), while constantly expand and producing corruptors and brood lords.
Also the ultra comes out just as the carrier get full potential anw.
Edit: The only real threat is void rays which I'm more than happy to trade most my hydras for.
This does not work at all. Carrier and voidray is gona kill all your hydra then the voidray will just kill your ultras
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Mods should remove this. Nothing constructive going on here, people have offered to help. People have asked for replays. Just balance whine about a beta test. . .
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wrj, I find your posts really hard to read because of the spelling errors and nearly zero punctuation. That it all.
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On September 23 2015 11:32 Axxis wrote:
Mods should remove this. Nothing constructive going on here, people have offered to help. People have asked for replays. Just balance whine about a beta test. . .
One more protoss wants to close the thread, big surprise.
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PB is just a cheap fix to zerg's lack of antiair and late game unit composition. Blizzard neglected this for 5 years, gl trying to have a proper fix now.
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EPT
