|
As a player who plays the beta TONS of hours i can tell you my is my biggest problem with the carriers.
Yes they deal a lot of damage
Yes they can come out really fast which make them possible option for the protoss which i never said its a bad thing
Biggest issiue is the release interseptos
why?
First of all it can make them really cost effiect.To give u an example think of an army that contain 10 carrier and a mothership. Since zerg air unites are not that mobile as lings/roach/hydra etc... they cant defends all the bases so these 10 carriers come release they Interceptors on 1 zerg base and just recall back with the mothership and zerg got 2 option:
If they are lucky enough to be close to that base to actully try to defend it the protoss will loss some mineral but the zerg will loss a lot of unites which are gas based not to mention the fact that the only unit which kill Interceptors really fast is hydra.
on the worst case zerg wont make it in time and your base is lost even if your base has a lot of spore i seen how 10 carriers snipe that base before u can do something which very little risk.
Now lets look on the zerg case
Lets say i want to attack a base of protoss.
First of all the airtoss games rely on a lot of expend and i often see 10 cannons on each base which force u to bring at least half of your army to try to attack it, and if you try to bring all of your army, unlike zerg the protoss got air unites "nydes warm" called mothership so defending it is really easy
so until now we saw that carrier can be really cost efficient on attacking zerg and can deal with zerg attacks very easy
But what make it worst about release Interceptors on 200 supply vs 200 supply?
Since brood-war everyone knows that if u play vs carrier just focus them down and you will win the fight thing is there are 3 options that can happen
1)zerg will try to attack and see that they are too weak an try to run and will loss a lot of army because chasing carriers is SUPER strong so running is not an option
2)zerg will just force the Interceptors and leave the carrier. I tried it and the best unit to do that is hydra but hydra is very low hp which mean that until to will get to the carrier you will loss at least 70% of your army of hydra and if protoss got storms i seen how 20 hydra die without doing anything.
3)zerg focus the carrier using mass corupters and vipers:So far this was the best for me but still its not working, and thats because that even when i shoot all the carriers my unites have to fight against 8 Interceptors+what the carrier had built until he died(actually yes carrier can can make more than 8 Interceptors for the fights) and even if you killed half of the carrier army which is what happen to me on most of the cases still carrier army is way more cost efficient since zerg anti air are heavy on gas.
This is the point when i am sure people will say well you are zerg your eco need to be better than protoss one but to these people i say that i remind them that the only real harass zerg unit which can do something is muta and that not a smart thing to do vs airtoss which protoss got tons of harass unites and they can take bases with carrier really fast which in total make your eco weak
in conclusion; carrier is a very strong unit that can be fixed but just removing the release ability. The build time buff was enough to make them visible strategy on lotv
Would love to hear your commend about it
|
Some people are saying that parasitic bomb is really strong, but you don't seem to mention it. Do you think that may work?
Otherwise maybe you can show us a few replays, and someone can have a look at what is going on.
|
Well 1200 minerals to snipe a base... If Zerg can take another one (or two) and just transfer drones over they are the cost efficient ones. Carriers aren't that mobile, forced to stay together and take up a lot of supply/resources which make it unlickely that Protoss can deny 2-3 bases at once.
As for ultimate battle, queens are your friend with corruptor and maybe some parasitic bombs (in theory neural could work but in practice it's too short ranged). For harass the real Z option is 20+ lings runby. 
|
Mass air armies in LotV are broken, not just carriers. In my opinion they should try make all of them a lot weaker so ground armies are viable.
|
I'm not quite sure what it is, because it is impossible to differentiate between released interceptors and the usual interceptors, but interceptors are insanely strong at switching targets in LotV.
Once released there is a 14range deadzone in which nothing can reach the carrier. For example if you use vipers you need like 10 to get 5 into range of the carriers.
PB isn't very good on the carriers and you can't target interceptors so it's not really good.
Hydras lose against carriers.
Corruptors have been nerfed, yet I guess they are your best bet.
I guess what I want to say is that I don't know how to fight them, but I also don't want to say they are too strong or anything because they are hard to reach and expensive and probably you can just kill players trying to reach them. It's the same thing as currently in HotS, if you let P/T get to lategame you lose but roaches are pretty good.
|
On August 06 2015 19:21 Big J wrote:
I'm not quite sure what it is, because it is impossible to differentiate between released interceptors and the usual interceptors, but interceptors are insanely strong at switching targets in LotV.
Once released there is a 14range deadzone in which nothing can reach the carrier. For example if you use vipers you need like 10 to get 5 into range of the carriers.
PB isn't very good on the carriers and you can't target interceptors so it's not really good.
Hydras lose against carriers.
Corruptors have been nerfed, yet I guess they are your best bet.
I guess what I want to say is that I don't know how to fight them, but I also don't want to say they are too strong or anything because they are hard to reach and expensive and probably you can just kill players trying to reach them. It's the same thing as currently in HotS, if you let P/T get to lategame you lose but roaches are pretty good.
I agree on most things you say.People forget that PB is just OK vs carriers. PB may be op vs vikings/phonix/muta but vs the high hp unites like void rays/carrier PB is nothing more than ok. I have tested somethings about carriers and what i saw is without Interceptors realease when i used just mass corupters and few vipers i saw zerg lost all of their army but toss lost about 85% of it which is okey cuz zerg still need better eco but with Interceptors release i lsot all army and toss maybe 25% of army so Interceptors relase is main probloem.
also carrier since LOTV are very hard to stop. i see alot of people who just build stargate and build 1 oracle 2 void rays openion into their expo which forces the zerg to get hydra out but till u do carrier already out so u cant really kill toss eco. vs carrier u need corupters. I wont say its a bad thing early carrier all i say that it is very hard to stop them from getting carrier and late mass carrier is almost impossible to win and to these who think PB is the answer, if it could hit Interceptors it was but since it can not PB will almost never kill the 450 hp carrier for that u need 5 PB to hit it and this will almost never happen.
Etheir remove Interceptors release which is best or let let PB target Interceptors
if anyone can show me a replay of how to win 200 supply army late airtoss il be happy
|
I'm not a fan of the release interceptors ability either. With recall it has very little counterplay.
|
On August 06 2015 20:59 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I'm not a fan of the release interceptors ability either. With recall it has very little counterplay.
This is exactly why it is hard to punish and stop airtoss play
|
On August 06 2015 16:43 Cascade wrote:
Some people are saying that parasitic bomb is really strong, but you don't seem to mention it. Do you think that may work?
Otherwise maybe you can show us a few replays, and someone can have a look at what is going on.
Yeah parasitic bomb is free win against large amounts of carriers. It's as simple as this, throw the parasitic bomb and all interceptors die = thousands of minerals lost for the protoss player.
|
Parasitic bomb and problem is solved.
|
While I disagree with "PB and protoss GG", I don't believe there is a huge problem with carriers. Scout more early, and if you see a fleet beacon and multiple stargates start denying bases and expanding. I don't believe a direct engage would be smart until you are SURE you can trade effectively. Force them into 1 army, THEN PB (Maybe some fungal) and GG.
|
On August 06 2015 23:41 GGzerG wrote:
Parasitic bomb and problem is solved.
I keep feeling worse and worse about this. Had at least 3games in which I got rolled by carriers trying to fight them with PBs... God I hate it that there is no unit tester in LotV, so stupid trying to figure out strategies without knowing the balance.
|
I love how people are so ignorant about balance that they go out of their way to outright condemn any problem zerg has vs air by saying "just use pb".
Heres the thing, PB is only useful against clumped air units, units like phoenix, muta, medivacs and to a certain degree vikings and VR. What PB is terrible at is dealing with capital ships - you know - like the fucking carrier. When was the last time you saw a protoss who decided "Herp Derp ill just keep right clicking to keep all of my carriers clumped!". Carriers naturally spread out. And even if you hit 5 pb's on carriers, the best you can hope for is a removal of all their shields and hoping your corruptors can finish the job (dont worry, they wont).
But thats not even the biggest concern about the carriers, its the fact that zerg has to invest so heavily to dealing with those monstrosities that if the protoss player only makes 3-5 and invests in a ground army complete with archons, its nearly unbeatable. Even if you kill off those carriers, the interceptor release will be sure to wreck any remaining army you have if any.
|
I guess if you can't target interceptors with parasitic bomb, it must be a bug. I don't think they'd want this, on purpose.
|
Obviously the only answer to mass Skytoss or mass raven / liberator etc being Parasitic bomb is terrible balance design / unit design, but that is the correct answer at the moment, and the only answer once the air units hit a critical mass.
|
Carriers are "broken" aka too cost efficient in every single match-up, including PvP. They beat their counters, just like parasitic bomb does.
Every game in beta where Protoss gets to mid/late game they just start spamming pure carrier because it is the new flying swarmhost. You can release interceptors which are just minerals, take out a base, fly away and come back with more interceptors. A good toss won't ever lose the carriers.
For Terran, there are only two real counters to carriers. You go mass mine/cyclone to kill the interceptors and that is basically you just hoping that the Protoss releases them in a cloud and you get lucky RNG mine hits.
The 2nd way is if you happened to be able to get up to 10-14 BCS which is near impossible in this economy and even then still probably loses to tempest/carrier/storm.
Zerg has no counter to mass carrier either. Parasitic bomb is pretty OP vs Terran, but doesn't do as much vs mass carriers if the Protoss just splits them up, nor is it feasible to get 10+ vipers vs carriers lol. They can release the interceptors and run away and you lose everything.
Glad someone made a thread to discuss mass carrier because these end game fantasy armies of "mass carrier" and mass brood + viper should not exist. There should not be armies in the game that you "get to" and then basically autowin imo.
|
On August 07 2015 00:13 Energizer wrote:
I love how people are so ignorant about balance that they go out of their way to outright condemn any problem zerg has vs air by saying "just use pb".
Heres the thing, PB is only useful against clumped air units, units like phoenix, muta, medivacs and to a certain degree vikings and VR. What PB is terrible at is dealing with capital ships - you know - like the fucking carrier. When was the last time you saw a protoss who decided "Herp Derp ill just keep right clicking to keep all of my carriers clumped!". Carriers naturally spread out. And even if you hit 5 pb's on carriers, the best you can hope for is a removal of all their shields and hoping your corruptors can finish the job (dont worry, they wont).
But thats not even the biggest concern about the carriers, its the fact that zerg has to invest so heavily to dealing with those monstrosities that if the protoss player only makes 3-5 and invests in a ground army complete with archons, its nearly unbeatable. Even if you kill off those carriers, the interceptor release will be sure to wreck any remaining army you have if any.
One of the only smart commends i saw.
People dont get it, YOU CANT NO STOP PROTOSS EXPAND U JUST CANT!
i seen games where protoss just open up with a normal orcale harass from stargate in 1.5 min after first carrier is out because they are built really quick and when first carrier is out u need corupters and you can not get them that fast to stop protoss eco u just can not.I also seen A LOT of game were protoss just open with adepts aggression out of 2 bases and when i want to counter attack him carrier already out since adepts are very cost efficient. zerg dont got stalker that can deal with carrier or fast void rays they must build spire and adepts play deny it a lot
Also no! PB is useless vs carriers since PB will almost never kill carrier since they are not stacking together and they got 450 health so to these who say its just easy to deal with carriers i want to see how see easy it is on grand master league on lotv where i play at on which people are not stupid enough to a move their army
|
On August 07 2015 01:31 avilo wrote:
Carriers are "broken" aka too cost efficient in every single match-up, including PvP. They beat their counters, just like parasitic bomb does.
Every game in beta where Protoss gets to mid/late game they just start spamming pure carrier because it is the new flying swarmhost. You can release interceptors which are just minerals, take out a base, fly away and come back with more interceptors. A good toss won't ever lose the carriers.
For Terran, there are only two real counters to carriers. You go mass mine/cyclone to kill the interceptors and that is basically you just hoping that the Protoss releases them in a cloud and you get lucky RNG mine hits.
The 2nd way is if you happened to be able to get up to 10-14 BCS which is near impossible in this economy and even then still probably loses to tempest/carrier/storm.
Zerg has no counter to mass carrier either. Parasitic bomb is pretty OP vs Terran, but doesn't do as much vs mass carriers if the Protoss just splits them up, nor is it feasible to get 10+ vipers vs carriers lol. They can release the interceptors and run away and you lose everything.
Glad someone made a thread to discuss mass carrier because these end game fantasy armies of "mass carrier" and mass brood + viper should not exist. There should not be armies in the game that you "get to" and then basically autowin imo.
Another person who mention what i just said, Carrier can just fly to a base,release interceptors recall back with their 700 health mothership and bye bye zerg base with almost no protoss loss and making mass zerg bases is not that easy since zerg got muta to harass while protoss got zelots/dt/warpprism and even some oracle and the pure carrier army trade too good
I also agree as a zerg gm player that mass broodlords+viper is unbitable like mass carrier since viper just kill everything on the air which is not BC and broodlords kill all on the ground maybe expect of good micro cyclone but that not cost efficent enought because of viper abduct will make it still more worth for zerg.This also kill all late zvz plays where corupters just die too fast and broodlords take hydra too fast
Id like to see on next patch PB bomb damage reduced for 50 with carrier release ability removed while letting PB target interceptors so if protoss dont want to loss all interceptors they will need to make good attack timing to taking as less damage as can and this show that protoss got skills more than just a moving carrier armies
|
|
|
Railgan i know that you are very high skilled zerg player more than me for sure but with all the respect for you this show nothing.
look on some of my points:
First off all look at the protoss micro he stack all his carriers a good protoss player would have at least 2 big groups of carriers
Also if you look carefully you can see that the Templars VERY late to even do 1 feedback and when they join to the fight instead of using 2-3 good storm on the mass hydra army they just turn them self into archones i was thinking to me self when i saw it wait what the....
Another thing is the poor carrier micro.If you look carefully you can see that he didnt use the release Interceptors ability and just a moved his carriers and just let them sit there and fight,A good carrier player would try to at least move back and try to kite the ground army which he never did
Another small thing i saw his that the protoss macro of 4 bases is pretty low. I seen protoss player whit 5 bases with mass cannons on eatch on that time
Most interstesing thing too see is whit all this LOW yes low micro play he still took at least 85% of your army so i wonder how mid master lvl of micro would have ended this fight so actully this show what are zerg player talking about
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
