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On August 09 2015 04:02 Nyast wrote:
I don't get it; even if carriers were OP, how do you get to snowball to such an army ?
In low numbers they're not really that good, so considering the insane macro Zerg has in LotV and the rate of depleting resources, Protoss is forced to take a third quickly and play a macro game in order to get to their "dream" carrier army.
But how does Protoss defend that third with just a few carriers ?
I see you guys mention 10+ canons, but wtf. Canons cost 150 each, and you'll need another 10 at the natural to survive ( otherwise Zerg can ignore the third and just go for a timing at the natural ). So you need 20+ canons to survive now..
So 20 canons, a third and multiple carriers to defend your bases, all of that at 6-7' ?
Also have to consider that the only thing that can beat the Liberator or Broodlord deathball is Carriers. So if you remove their one solution, it's not going to fix anything, just give their deathballs one less thing to worry about. Big J is on the right track with nerfing many different units with broken attributes that promote passive play. We tend to focus on one unit or another, but it's the accumulation of these extreme properties of units that necessitate extreme responses, and the not-so-extreme units tend to fall by the wayside.
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"they can come out really fast"
That's not my experience playing the beta. I make my fast third base, the zerg scouts that I'm going to make carriers, he hits a timming where I have 3 or 4 carriers and I'm dead.
You can't sit back and let the oponnent build a 200/200 carrier army. In PvP, if I make 200/200 tempest army I'll win the game no matter what. Now I ask you: is this a problem in hots PvP for instance? No, because if you try to make such a army your oponnent hits a timing and you're dead.
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Do you really want this game to be like this ? Having to hit at a certain point in order to win is kinda boring if you ask me... I'd rather have solutions whenever I can instead of "shit he got massive carriers count, why bother playing this game if I can't do anything ?".
Actually, right now, whenever I'm playing a protoss, my thinking process is the following :
Will he do a fast rush ? Better make drones 'til the last minute and then proceed to make units !
Nope he's not. Quick scout it asap again ! 2 bases timing push ? fuck, need more drones til the last minute again.
Nope he's not attacking. why did I make too much units ? To push ? Screw it, it'd fail.
Fuck. Now he has carriers ? Why bother ? Just quit the game.
Now tell me where the fun is in this. This game is just so fucking bullshit.
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I dont understand the people who say just not let him get to that point?
I ask you, do you want lotv be be wol number 2?
All i remember from wol is zerg must make broodlords under 12 min or gg, do we want same fate with carrier.
Starcraft is RTS which mean those who have better macro on late and better micro should win the game and not those who have a combo of unites. I saw blizard telling us they want more micro, Does a move 200 supply carrier army=more micro play??
Its okey that carrier is strong late game unit but to accept the fact that on late zvp they are unstoppable so dont let them get to that point is called balanced game is something i cant accept. Either do something about it now or keep it the same and we wake up in 2 years and say,Zerg is boring race, you must finish ultra in 7 min and rush or its gg
i ask you whats better?
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best way to balance it is to give PB more damage vs massive units or let PB target Interceptors like it used to be.
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On August 09 2015 05:54 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
best way to balance it is to give PB more damage vs massive units or let PB target Interceptors like it used to be.
Nah, that's boring as hell.
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Best way is to remove the release ability and it work way better-You still loss all the army but the protoss loss all his ground army if it has any and 85-90% of carrier(I tested it but it depends alot on the micro)
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Umm not really sure how much nerf the carrier can handle when it loses to mass (insert almost anything that shoots air). people seem to have a problem with protoss late game rather than with the carrier itself and I think it would be better to address that problem rather than a unit which really loses to a LOT of counters when its by itself. Perhaps its not being able to transition against carriers while the protoss is able to transition to carrier? I really can't see a feasible way to nerf carrier when it loses to mass marines, mass stalkers, mass corruptors, mass vikings, mass liberators, mass BCs, mass cyclones? ... really the list goes on.
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On August 09 2015 04:37 Tiaraju9 wrote:
"they can come out really fast"
That's not my experience playing the beta. I make my fast third base, the zerg scouts that I'm going to make carriers, he hits a timming where I have 3 or 4 carriers and I'm dead.
You can't sit back and let the oponnent build a 200/200 carrier army. In PvP, if I make 200/200 tempest army I'll win the game no matter what. Now I ask you: is this a problem in hots PvP for instance? No, because if you try to make such a army your oponnent hits a timing and you're dead.
No, problem is that carriers are insanely cost efficient with release interceptor so they get to attack and engage without exposing themselves.
Combined with this snowballing due to fast build time makes it snowball even harder
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They were like that in SC too.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
Bumping with this post:
On September 21 2015 22:19 wrj wrote:30 min zvp vs skytoss,just look and see its not winnable on late game,reason:release interceptors make it op,you should watch the video till the end and commend after you seen the all game how you would win this late 200 supply carrier army http://sc2rep.ru/show.php?id=16664Just to point out there is a fight there with and without release interceptors just see the difference in results!
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I was sent here from another thread :D Oh this thread was also opened by wrj. Let the constructive discussion begin!
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well, from my experience you can
a) take 5 bases and just overrun him with units and upgrades while denying his bases
b) hit a good timing and kill him with things like hydra
Doesnt really feel like a problem, its more of a "if my opponent reaches X then i lose" situation. Protoss playing a normal macro game has lots of those as well.
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Just to answer CrystaX. On the comment you said something like;"just use the PB on the intercepotrs"
You dont play the beta right? Because if you did you would know they cant be targeted,and if you gm on the beta you are fake on for sure and NO viper is not counter for the 450 hp carrier unless he is a moving which will not happen in mid master+
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Actually, it's not only zerg. Terran has absolutly NO WAY to deal with 8+ carriers with high templars. Carriers + HT vs bio, HT + tempest vs mech.
Problem is, protoss in LOTV has easy ways to build an army that isn't beatable by other races. I mean in HOTS, in theory, mass carriers + HT is uneatable too, but protoss can't really get there without dying. Mainly because timings and the meta are much more developped and prevents protoss building an air army without dying to bio pushes or hydra/lings pushes.
So the main issue is that protoss has an entire techpath that's can't become viable without having the ways to build an unbeatable 200/200. If DK wants to make skytoss balanced, the carrier and the tempest need a nerf, or the synergy between storm and skytoss to be nerfed.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
In Brood War late game you have this to deal with carriers:
Scourge: Suicide unit that does a ton of damage to carrier itself
Defiler: Plague reduces health to 1 and shields untouched, Dark Swarm deflects non melee attacks
Queens: Ensnare slows interceptors and carriers
So let's see how this can be equivalent in SC2:
Infestor: Fungal, may need a buff (late game upgrade to extend cast range) this should shutdown carrier movement and lock interceptors in place where they can attack still but can also be hit with out returning to the ship.
Infested Terrans, should be used under fungaled interceptors to kill them off quickly
Viper: Yank carriers into zerg army, parasitic bomb for damage
Corruptors: lots of corruptors lol
In a comparison, it seems like casting abilities are available in both games. Suicide scourge really make a difference though. I'm not sure anything in the SC2 Zerg arsenal can equal that level of air dps.
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On September 21 2015 23:35 BisuDagger wrote:
In a comparison, it seems like casting abilities are available in both games. Suicide scourge really make a difference though. I'm not sure anything in the SC2 Zerg arsenal can equal that level of air dps.
When was the last time someone made Carriers vs Zerg in BW? As far as I know it is not a viable strat, given how hard they are countered by scourge. And you can't make scouts to shoot down scourge, because the missiles are too slow. Scourge hit their targets regardless.
Carriers shouldn't be unusable in LotV PvZ like they are in BW PvZ.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On September 21 2015 23:51 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 23:35 BisuDagger wrote:
In a comparison, it seems like casting abilities are available in both games. Suicide scourge really make a difference though. I'm not sure anything in the SC2 Zerg arsenal can equal that level of air dps.
When was the last time someone made Carriers vs Zerg in BW? As far as I know it is not a viable strat, given how hard they are countered by scourge. And you can't make scouts to shoot down scourge, because the missiles are too slow. Scourge hit their targets regardless. Carriers shouldn't be unusable in LotV PvZ like they are in BW PvZ.
There was one pro game a couple months ago that used carriers, but yeah scourge shutdown the ability to go carriers or arbiter. SC2 doesn't need that as you mention. I think an upgrade buff to infestor range should work. And maybe dmg upgrade for infested terrans.
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Button line is,its not winnable on late game atm
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On September 21 2015 23:58 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 23:51 CheddarToss wrote:On September 21 2015 23:35 BisuDagger wrote:
In a comparison, it seems like casting abilities are available in both games. Suicide scourge really make a difference though. I'm not sure anything in the SC2 Zerg arsenal can equal that level of air dps.
When was the last time someone made Carriers vs Zerg in BW? As far as I know it is not a viable strat, given how hard they are countered by scourge. And you can't make scouts to shoot down scourge, because the missiles are too slow. Scourge hit their targets regardless. Carriers shouldn't be unusable in LotV PvZ like they are in BW PvZ. There was one pro game a couple months ago that used carriers, but yeah scourge shutdown the ability to go carriers or arbiter. SC2 doesn't need that as you mention. I think an upgrade buff to infestor range should work. And maybe dmg upgrade for infested terrans.
I don't like that. I can foresee that being absurdly OP in combination with Lurkers, maybe even with BLs. I would prefer an upgrade for Hydras that would increase their AA damage. That would also help Zerg against Terran air.
On September 22 2015 00:05 wrj wrote:
Button line is,its not winnable on late game atm
It is. It is even winnable on higher levels of skill (GM) let alone on lower ones, where balance is rarely the deciding factor. The key is having a lot of hydras and doing speedling harass and denying expos. You have to choke the Protoss and let him run out of minerals, and not play a NR30 game where at the end you engage his air army head on.
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EPT
