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On June 18 2015 06:06 ObamaToss wrote:
Jesus the sense of entitlement among some of the SC2 community is unbelievable. Compare LOTV's development to many other games. A publically traded company is delaying the release of the game for a year+ while letting players play for free(I realize the open beta is a ways off, but still). They're being incredibly transparent about their thought process and taking a ton of feedback into account. I don't have beta but LotV already looks like a great, fun, exciting game to watch and play.
90% of other companies would have released a half baked game after a 1 month beta with a day 0 patch plus withhold 25% of the content for a paid DLC pack.
I for one really appreciate the way bliz handling LotV.
But if you compare it to other eSports is absolutely pathetic how Blizzard refuses to acknowledge the community and pro players. Take Brood Lord/Infestor: the unit composition that destroyed interest in SC2. Despite massive community and professional outcry for over 6 months, Blizzard did absolutely nothing to stop it until the damage to SC2's reputation was already done. Now, look at Dota 2. When a hero has been picked more often than it should, it is generally nerfed or changed to compensate. There will be times where a hero is picked for months on end, but it still gets nerfed in the next patch. Just look at how rarely SC2 is patched for balance compared to other games: LoL is patched every 2 weeks or so, and Dota about 3 times a year (but those patches impact nearly every hero in the game). SC2 has been patched twice in the past year, both of which only affect 3-4 units. Every time we hear from Blizzard, its some bullshit about how much they are trying to make the game amazing, even though almost the entire design team is working on the Campaign or Heroes.
What's going to happen is LotV will be released, the hype will last for a few months, and SC2 will descend out of the top 5 eSports in the world, all the while Blizzard will keep feeding us the same empty comments they have for the past five years. Blizzard has everything in its power to make LotV amazing, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
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On June 18 2015 06:06 ObamaToss wrote:
Jesus the sense of entitlement among some of the SC2 community is unbelievable. Compare LOTV's development to many other games. A publically traded company is delaying the release of the game for a year+ while letting players play for free(I realize the open beta is a ways off, but still). They're being incredibly transparent about their thought process and taking a ton of feedback into account. I don't have beta but LotV already looks like a great, fun, exciting game to watch and play.
90% of other companies would have released a half baked game after a 1 month beta with a day 0 patch plus withhold 25% of the content for a paid DLC pack.
I for one really appreciate the way bliz handling LotV.
I think it mostly has to do with the fact that people hold Blizzard to a very high standard. Sure, many companies have those problems, but since people want Blizzard to be the best, they are compared to what is done better, such as what has happened in other successful games. Comparing with the lesser companies really doesn't help much, like saying the USA is perfect because it is doing better than 90% of countries. To get better, you compare to what others do better, not by being content with what you have. You strive to be the golden standard in the industry.
Blizzard are doing great things, sure, but they can do better. They have done better. And that is why people are complaining. Complaints can be expressed better, but crying "entitled" because people want stuff to be better isn't helping either.
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Aaaah, the good old internal testing. The same one that was probably used to come to the conclusion that Daedalus was balanced enough to be played in pro Korean leagues or that the mine nerf + tank buff would bring back Marine/Tank. We're heading in a good direction, I tell ya
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Here's a suggestion, fix protoss. @_@;; It's so frustrating to play. No one plays LotV because the gameplay is just... not fun/entertaining @_@;;
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What total nonsense.
Making changes due to play testing results is not the same as responding to community feedback.
Every rational person here knows that what SC2 needs is not a few new units and a couple number tweaks. It's a good thing I didn't have any hopes for LotV, or I'd be really disappointed.
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What does splitting mech upgrades have to do with making bio more viable? These posts always sound like PR fluff rather than people who understand what goes on in the community. Always the "thx for the feedback guys, but we're going to do some stuff you don't agree with, buy our game".
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On June 18 2015 02:50 massivez wrote:
Another topic of discussion that has come up recently, is a “pro player chat” referenced by some players. This was a casual group chat created by the StarCraft II Community Managers as a way to get more direct feedback that could be gathered and passed to devs. While the intentions were good, the format wasn’t the best way to gather feedback. Also, the lack of devs in the chat frustrated some players. We’d like to continue to find ways we can collect formal feedback from pros, but with more dev interaction. So we’d like to iterate on the idea and fix some of the issues that were recognized using the group chat format. We’ll be creating a new way for pro players to provide feedback directly to the devs and get responses on their feedback. We think this format will provide better results for both sides.
So after FIVE years Blizzard is still (for the first time?) trying to 'investigate better ways' to get pro player feedback in? WHAT TOOK YOU SO LONG? Also, Skype chats would be perfectly fine, if the pros are frustrated about the lack of attention from the actual devs THEN PUT SOME THERE? This is typical delaying PR bullshit if you ask me, and - at least for me - actually increases the feeling that they give zero fucks about what the players and pros think.
On June 18 2015 02:50 massivez wrote:
Please keep in mind that while we’ll be increasing our communication across the board, we’d also like to make it clear that even extremely popular suggestions may not always be right for the game.
This sums up the attitude of the SC2 devs perfectly imho. They still haven't understood it. It hasn't clicked that they're making the game for these people, for their audience. Not for themselves. If there are extremely popular suggestions that come up over and over again (not necessarily balance-wise but design stuff about the races or UI/BNET 2 etc.) THEN WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THAT'S NOT RIGHT FOR THE GAME? Incredibly elitist and down-right arrogant behavior there. And that is the core difference between SC2 and Valve for example. That's exactly why this whole discussion got started.
(Sorry for the caps lock there at times, it's frustrating to see something you love be stomped to the ground by this mixture of incompetence and arrogance. If they at least tried their best, I would understand it. But this is just sad. If you're going to be arrogant, you damn better well also be good at it. That doesn't seem to be the case to me.)
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On June 18 2015 06:06 ObamaToss wrote:
Jesus the sense of entitlement among some of the SC2 community is unbelievable. Compare LOTV's development to many other games. A publically traded company is delaying the release of the game for a year+ while letting players play for free(I realize the open beta is a ways off, but still). They're being incredibly transparent about their thought process and taking a ton of feedback into account. I don't have beta but LotV already looks like a great, fun, exciting game to watch and play.
90% of other companies would have released a half baked game after a 1 month beta with a day 0 patch plus withhold 25% of the content for a paid DLC pack.
I for one really appreciate the way bliz handling LotV.
Well put. All though there are room for improvements I feel like the Starcraft team is doing what they can, with what they have. I don't think they are purposely trying to ignore or sabotage anything, thats just silly talk. I am glad they are listening and I hope they continue to, and in an even greater capacity if possible.
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Unfortunately, the disappointed folks (or just the perpetually angry people) are usually the vocal majority. So that means, once a change is made, the people who like that change are quiet, and the people who don't like that change start talking. Now if Blizzard changes that back, then the original people who liked it, get upset and start talking while the people who are now happy stop. So basically, as usual, there are always people who are disappointed because everyone prefers something different. Blizzard can't please everyone.
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On June 18 2015 06:02 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Right off the bat I'm puzzled xD I don't remember this being the case at all.
Personally I didn't want a new Terran unit at all so much as I wanted them to improve current units that weren't being used at all like the Ghost.
When they announced that we'd be getting a new unit from the Starport, the last thing I wanted was an another aoe splash unit!
The Liberator is a terrible unit idea as far as I'm concerned, I think I'd rather have the Herc back.
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On June 18 2015 03:35 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 03:27 Tiaraju9 wrote:On June 18 2015 03:24 Charoisaur wrote:We split mech upgrades based on feedback that “Terran can almost never go bio in Void.” I've never heard so much stupidity And we want communication! 9 out of 10 posts/threads are made by people being disrespectful or behaving like angry little kids. I don't know why David Kim even bother to reply. I don't know which race you play. But if for example you are protoss and DK says: "stargate tech isn't really used, so we decided to nerf robo tech so players are more encouraged to build stargate units" how would you feel?
In LotV the reason few people go bio is because mech is so good it is stupid not to go mech. Nerfing mech (in a tiny tiny way) means some more people might actually try bio.
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Broodwar was a niche game. SC2 is 5 years old and it is now a niche game. Broodwar is still alive(?) and there will still be SC2 tournaments even if Blizzard stop throwing money away to ungrateful and incompetant foreigners via WCS in a couple of years.
If SC2 ever die I am sure Warcraft 4 or some alternative created through DOTA 2's custom maps will already be a reality.
People should stop moaning and play the game. Moaning won't make people watch it or even play it. Changing everything in the current game for lotv won't make this generation of players change their mind either. The moba crowd is not interested in a hardcore game requiring getting stomped hundreds of times before not feeling like a complete shit when they can have instant gratification while playing games far more popular. Games they can play with their friends.
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Please. Improvement is just going too slow, no patch so far has been really significant. If you're testing things internally, communicate. And it's not like I trust your internal testings anyway, I remember how the "swarm hosts works great as intended and fulfills its role as a siege breaker, we're pretty happy with the unit".
On June 18 2015 06:31 OtherWorld wrote:
Aaaah, the good old internal testing. The same one that was probably used to come to the conclusion that Daedalus was balanced enough to be played in pro Korean leagues or that the mine nerf + tank buff would bring back Marine/Tank. We're heading in a good direction, I tell ya
Grist for my mill 
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On June 18 2015 06:57 Para199x wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 03:35 Charoisaur wrote:On June 18 2015 03:27 Tiaraju9 wrote:On June 18 2015 03:24 Charoisaur wrote:We split mech upgrades based on feedback that “Terran can almost never go bio in Void.” I've never heard so much stupidity And we want communication! 9 out of 10 posts/threads are made by people being disrespectful or behaving like angry little kids. I don't know why David Kim even bother to reply. I don't know which race you play. But if for example you are protoss and DK says: "stargate tech isn't really used, so we decided to nerf robo tech so players are more encouraged to build stargate units" how would you feel? In LotV the reason few people go bio is because mech is so good it is stupid not to go mech. Nerfing mech (in a tiny tiny way) means some more people might actually try bio.
right, it has nothing to do with bio autolosing once ultras are out.
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On June 18 2015 06:57 Para199x wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 03:35 Charoisaur wrote:On June 18 2015 03:27 Tiaraju9 wrote:On June 18 2015 03:24 Charoisaur wrote:We split mech upgrades based on feedback that “Terran can almost never go bio in Void.” I've never heard so much stupidity And we want communication! 9 out of 10 posts/threads are made by people being disrespectful or behaving like angry little kids. I don't know why David Kim even bother to reply. I don't know which race you play. But if for example you are protoss and DK says: "stargate tech isn't really used, so we decided to nerf robo tech so players are more encouraged to build stargate units" how would you feel? In LotV the reason few people go bio is because mech is so good it is stupid not to go mech. Nerfing mech (in a tiny tiny way) means some more people might actually try bio.
The reason people don't go bio in TvZ, which is the matchup everyone's been complaining about, is because the zerg has an easier time getting to the late game vs hots and lurkers, ultras, and cracklings are gods, destroyers of worlds.
Now, people still go bio, but it's like hots TvP, where you desperately try to win in the mid game or you've lost.
If mech is too powerful, identify reasons and nerf it in its own right.
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Yep, I'm done.
TL introduced me to esports back when SC2 was announced, and I've loved it ever since. I wouldn't presume to call it home, more like the home of friends made late in life, where I felt privileged to be welcome.
I've witnessed amazing moments of individual brilliance on this screen, always with TL in the background. I've cursed imbalance, and cheered it. I've waxed... well, mostly just waxed, on various topics, ideas and suggestions. Sorry about that.
I no longer feel I belong. Or maybe I no longer feel there's something to belong to. I come here every day and every day it's just more shit being poured on the people trying to keep - no, treat this game like it's something worth caring about. And every olive branch Blizzard offers is just so much toilet roll.
Fuck you if you think SC2 has been a catalogue of design errors. I didn't stay up 'till 3am on work nights to watch design errors. I didn't go to bars and go apeshit over design errors, I went apeshit because Bomber didn't disappoint, or because Life found a way. The game is fucking amazing. It's like Rachmaninoff was handed a machine gun instead of a piano.
So, Mr(s) Moderator: a permanent ban, if you would be so kind, boss. It's been a pleasure. I sincerely wish you the best of luck.
User was banned for this post.
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Mexico2170 Posts
The sc2 community has turned into one of the worst communities I've ever been in, how sad as it used to be the most awesome. So much anger, its sad really.
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To both previous comments : do you really think what SC2 needs atm is yes men telling Blizzard how LotV is going awesomely and how excited we are to play it ?
It's precisely because the game has been "fucking amazing" and delivered awesome moments for five years that some of us worry about the direction taken and the blatant stagnation of the state of the beta ever since release. And to be frank, that message from DK deserved shit and anger. At first I thought the OP was trolling.
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There are so many passionate people in this community that want nothing more than to see this game reach every inch of its potential. Take a look back at the start of the beta. Blizzard was making bold moves. Each patch made the game more fun and intricate. All of a sudden the shallow skill ceiling we suffered through with HOTS grew exponentially. This happened in such a short period of time thanks to rapid unique patches. These changes were less about numbers and more about what a player could do mechanically. It reminded us of a game we played that was balanced because of an "attacker vs. defender" dynamic. A phenomenon that exists in few other games. An actual equilibrium existed allowing players to fast expand while their opponents all in'd... and while dmg could be done..... the game continued to play out. At the beginning of the beta players could defend by using gosu micro, well orchestrated reads on their opponent and intelligent unit positioning. This is not the direction the last 3 patches have steered us toward.
The broad stroke changes we enjoyed early on are starting to turn into specific changes to specific units. The plus or minus five second bunker build time is the way HOTS was balanced. This is NOT a healthy or long lasting way to give stability to a strategy game. The fans are sitting in the back seat watching Blizzard driving the wrong way down a one way street. We are not going down this road without kicking out the windows and fighting to turn the car around. We're not going to let this amazing RTS become another Command and Conquer. It's time we called Blizzard out.
The economy change was the start and end of an open dialogue with Blizzard. Their response to our hundreds of highly educated and motivated TL writers explaining DH10 was finally replied to with "We may have decided internally that the economy change will not go through." This response can not be tolerated. They need to be made aware that watching a few show matches and internally testing with five, forty year old coders, does not count as adequate play testing. The so called fan made Liberator is not a healthy addition to this game. Another point and click flyer is the last thing this community wanted. We need to get away from point and click auto casters. Hard counters are for Heath Stone. This community is different. It wants balance through mechanics. An infinite skill ceiling shouldn't be sacrificed to cater to the casual. Listen Blizzard we know you have the balls to make the big changes that need to be made. It is time to stop polishing that statue and break out the chisel.
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On June 18 2015 07:54 [Phantom] wrote:
The sc2 community has turned into one of the worst communities I've ever been in, how sad as it used to be the most awesome. So much anger, its sad really.
Watching the people in charge of something you love continually take 1 step forward, and 2 back hurts. Pain causes people to become angry. Sad is that Blizzard keeps ignoring the majority of the community. They say a lot they are taking advice, I don't believe them anymore. RIP LotV
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