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On June 18 2015 12:35 ETisME wrote:
I don't know what's wrong with the sc2 community at all. The constant negativity, the expectations, the complains and just the overall toxicity.
Starcraft 2 has arguably the highest skill ceiling of all computer games out there. A lot of people simply have no perception of that, and as a result consider their shallow impression of the game as something to be communicated to the balance team - rather than to be explored further.
Also, a lot of people playing the game have much less than ideal mind set for competitive play. Finding yourself to be at fault for the loss is less than satisfying, so people resort to blaming the game design, balance; or in team games - their teammates. CS:GO and Dota 2 have a similarly toxic community, while Heroes of the Storm is purposely limited in game mechanics to make the experience a lot more fun and less challenging. Heroes simply has a lot less things to consider, therefore it is immediately apparent whether you lost due to a person fault or team misplay - with other Moba games, it is a lot more difficult to tell.
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On June 18 2015 12:35 ETisME wrote:
I have been playing a lot of heroes of the storm and the community is just so much more positive.
It's not even like they don't have a lot of flaws and "missing" features and they even are directly competing against the two biggest esport games but no one goes all negative at all.
(just a few complains that you would think people react far worse such as leavers and afk)
I don't know what's wrong with the sc2 community at all. The constant negativity, the expectations, the complains and just the overall toxicity.
What if I've thought that Protoss is literally metaphorical shit since 2010, like one of the worst designed things in any video game that I've ever come across in my entire life, and for the last 5 years I've been waiting and praying and hoping for the TFT-scale overhaul that would make the race watchable without swearing at the top of my lungs?
Do you think that over the course of these 5 years my frustration level has gone up or down?
Now, taking into consideration that LOTV is Blizzard's last possible opportunity to make huge changes to the game, is this the time for me (or any dissatisfied player/spectator) to be more or less vocal than ever before?
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eh, I don't have the time or will to read all the comments on the internet, or know even if that's a somewhat reasonable method to assess what people want in LoTV, but I wonder how much these overly zealous people actually represent the actual majority. That's the problem of this feedback system and being too open to the community. You're going to encounter a lot of bad opinions.
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On June 18 2015 06:02 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Right off the bat I'm puzzled xD I don't remember this being the case at all.
You have read every message on the internet?
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On June 18 2015 10:02 Sjokola wrote:
Wow... All these reactions feel so toxic and negative. Why would anyone think that the devs are not doing what they think is best for the game. And why would "we've discussed this internally and decided no" not be an appropriate response. They're letting us know they listen and consider our feedback. They don't have to include us in every part or process of development. Please try to bring some positivity to the community. If you read these forums it seems like LotV is the worst game in the history and it would be better to go back to WoL.
Can't we be more like "Thanks for your reaction, we're glad to see you listen to us. But we still think X"
Yes. They do this for a living. It's reasonable to say the devs have analyzed the game far more than any of us.
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On June 18 2015 13:22 Antonidas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 10:02 Sjokola wrote:
Wow... All these reactions feel so toxic and negative. Why would anyone think that the devs are not doing what they think is best for the game. And why would "we've discussed this internally and decided no" not be an appropriate response. They're letting us know they listen and consider our feedback. They don't have to include us in every part or process of development. Please try to bring some positivity to the community. If you read these forums it seems like LotV is the worst game in the history and it would be better to go back to WoL.
Can't we be more like "Thanks for your reaction, we're glad to see you listen to us. But we still think X" Yes. They do this for a living. It's reasonable to say the devs have analyzed the game far more than any of us.
^^ It's not like they're sitting around ignoring us. They're not taking our feedback and disregarding it just because it's the community. They're not taking good ideas and throwing them out because it's a community idea.
They have reasoning behind what they do based on experience testing and facts that the community doesn't have. They have experience and insight into how to CREATE a game and what makes a game work that the community doesn't have.
To be fair there are people who make good suggestions, and no game is perfect. But I'm a little tired of all the kids backseat developering who think that anything they think up is the best thing for the game and anything blizzard thinks up is crap. It's really become a case of, hey everyone is hating on blizzard, guess I will too. A little criticism is ok, but there are too many people just blindly picking something to hate and taking swings without a proper understanding of things.
What happened to the days when an expansion or game would come out, and the developers would show off some cool stuff in store and people would just go...oooh that looks awesome... can't wait, hope it's really fun in thegame!! #esportsdestroyingesports
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On June 18 2015 13:06 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 12:35 ETisME wrote:
I have been playing a lot of heroes of the storm and the community is just so much more positive.
It's not even like they don't have a lot of flaws and "missing" features and they even are directly competing against the two biggest esport games but no one goes all negative at all.
(just a few complains that you would think people react far worse such as leavers and afk)
I don't know what's wrong with the sc2 community at all. The constant negativity, the expectations, the complains and just the overall toxicity. What if I've thought that Protoss is literally metaphorical shit since 2010, like one of the worst designed things in any video game that I've ever come across in my entire life, and for the last 5 years I've been waiting and praying and hoping for the TFT-scale overhaul that would make the race watchable without swearing at the top of my lungs? Do you think that over the course of these 5 years my frustration level has gone up or down? Now, taking into consideration that LOTV is Blizzard's last possible opportunity to make huge changes to the game, is this the time for me (or any dissatisfied player/spectator) to be more or less vocal than ever before?
Well then unfortunately you are just putting yourself into a pit where you keep playing a game which has a third what you hated.
It is time to realise that there are almost no alternatives out there, and that is because a huge lack of interest. And blizzard cannot make a sc2 that satisfied every one in the rts genre.
If sc2 was as popular and alive, these so called flaw would have been called "features" of the game and won't be considered as negative.
I have said this a long time ago, go ahead and play alternatives like starbow or even going back to bw. Players are free to choose and sc2 is still the most played somehow.
Why keep complaining and playing the game you despise and act as if it's the game's fault
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On June 18 2015 12:55 NMxSardines wrote:
Starcraft 2 has arguably the highest skill ceiling of all computer games out there. A lot of people simply have no perception of that, and as a result consider their shallow impression of the game as something to be communicated to the balance team - rather than to be explored further.
haha no, brood war has even a higher skill ceiling than sc2.
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On June 18 2015 10:34 iamkaokao wrote:
The biggest problem i see ,regardless of some minor imbalances in the game.. is how unforgiving it is.. losing a 30min game in 2 seconds , pushes away casuals , fans , hardcores , professionals.. its not fun.. and they are making it even harder , complicated and faster... with the new spells and units and economy.. that's the scary part i see , i am personally fine.. with things being complicated.. but the majority of the people (casuals) will just stop playing the game more and more.. , i don't think that's good for any game.. they need to get new people to the game.. not scare them or push them away.. its already impossible for new players
Agree with this 100%. If my experience with the beta is any indication, LotV will chase away everyone in Gold and below. Some may say "who cares?", but that is the majority of a player base that is already rapidly shrinking.
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On June 18 2015 11:42 Plexa wrote:
The frustration in the community is not without merit. Look at any other competitive game and you see the developers making moves that please the community. Be it Riot with their super-active communication with the community or Valve launching a (functional) custom game system. Instead we get statements like this. I've channeled a lot of my life into BW and now SC2 but now whenever I think about LotV I just feel dejected.
If you're one of the people that are still thinking the community is being over dramatic, or whiny read this post (above). This is the sentiment shared by a large majority of people that have defined themselves by starcraft for over a decade. People that are talented enough to be legends at music, sports, shooters, & rts ..... they sacrifice to make room for SC in their life. Right now they are asking themselves a question. Is Legacy worth it.
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On June 18 2015 13:41 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 13:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On June 18 2015 12:35 ETisME wrote:
I have been playing a lot of heroes of the storm and the community is just so much more positive.
It's not even like they don't have a lot of flaws and "missing" features and they even are directly competing against the two biggest esport games but no one goes all negative at all.
(just a few complains that you would think people react far worse such as leavers and afk)
I don't know what's wrong with the sc2 community at all. The constant negativity, the expectations, the complains and just the overall toxicity. What if I've thought that Protoss is literally metaphorical shit since 2010, like one of the worst designed things in any video game that I've ever come across in my entire life, and for the last 5 years I've been waiting and praying and hoping for the TFT-scale overhaul that would make the race watchable without swearing at the top of my lungs? Do you think that over the course of these 5 years my frustration level has gone up or down? Now, taking into consideration that LOTV is Blizzard's last possible opportunity to make huge changes to the game, is this the time for me (or any dissatisfied player/spectator) to be more or less vocal than ever before? Well then unfortunately you are just putting yourself into a pit where you keep playing a game which has a third what you hated. It is time to realise that there are almost no alternatives out there, and that is because a huge lack of interest. And blizzard cannot make a sc2 that satisfied every one in the rts genre. If sc2 was as popular and alive, these so called flaw would have been called "features" of the game and won't be considered as negative. I have said this a long time ago, go ahead and play alternatives like starbow or even going back to bw. Players are free to choose and sc2 is still the most played somehow. Why keep complaining and playing the game you despise and act as if it's the game's fault
1. I don't play SC2, I only watch it.
2. BW or Starbow might be better games, but the first is too obscure for Anglophone viewers, while the second is both obscure and doesn't have any high level play (which is what I would tune in for).
If Blizzard said back in 2010 that "this is the game we always wanted to make and everything is working precisely how we envisioned it and this is just a perfect product that needs nothing but the occasional balance tweak," I would have known what I was getting myself into. But they keep dragging this shit out, promising that things will get better.
Look at what's happening with LOTV right now. They WANT to end the deathball shit that was PvX in WOL/HOTS, that's why they nixed the Colossus, that's why they're changing the economy. But Protoss doesn't work that way. We're not seeing the system break down completely yet because Maru isn't playing PartinG in the beta, but once players of that caliber get their hands on the game, we'll see how PartinG plans to defend 5 bases at the same time against a Terran whose Medivacs instantly drop all his units. It's not going to be pretty.
And you know as well as I do what happens then. We're going to get another MSC, another emergency fix-it to a problem that half of the community saw coming from a mile away, but Blizzard put their hands over their eyes while there was still time to make solutions that aren't ass. Maybe they'll make A-moved Adepts even more powerful vs Bio, wouldn't that be exciting?
So why not do the job right, and do it right now, instead of putting it off and hoping things work out? Why not create 5 different reworks of the Protoss race and then unleash them all on the community on 5 different PTRs to see which ideas resonate with the masses and which ones don't? It wouldn't take one guy more than a week of work to do it. It doesn't have to be balanced, the balance comes later. It just has to try to do something.
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On June 18 2015 13:41 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 13:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On June 18 2015 12:35 ETisME wrote:
I have been playing a lot of heroes of the storm and the community is just so much more positive.
It's not even like they don't have a lot of flaws and "missing" features and they even are directly competing against the two biggest esport games but no one goes all negative at all.
(just a few complains that you would think people react far worse such as leavers and afk)
I don't know what's wrong with the sc2 community at all. The constant negativity, the expectations, the complains and just the overall toxicity. What if I've thought that Protoss is literally metaphorical shit since 2010, like one of the worst designed things in any video game that I've ever come across in my entire life, and for the last 5 years I've been waiting and praying and hoping for the TFT-scale overhaul that would make the race watchable without swearing at the top of my lungs? Do you think that over the course of these 5 years my frustration level has gone up or down? Now, taking into consideration that LOTV is Blizzard's last possible opportunity to make huge changes to the game, is this the time for me (or any dissatisfied player/spectator) to be more or less vocal than ever before? Well then unfortunately you are just putting yourself into a pit where you keep playing a game which has a third what you hated. It is time to realise that there are almost no alternatives out there, and that is because a huge lack of interest. And blizzard cannot make a sc2 that satisfied every one in the rts genre. If sc2 was as popular and alive, these so called flaw would have been called "features" of the game and won't be considered as negative. I have said this a long time ago, go ahead and play alternatives like starbow or even going back to bw. Players are free to choose and sc2 is still the most played somehow. Why keep complaining and playing the game you despise and act as if it's the game's fault
Wait... did you just say "there are next-to-nil alternatives, but you are free to choose from these few options!"?
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- Many high-profile personalities such as Artosis, Day9, etc have left the scene
- Casters deride the design of SC2 on their personal streams. Even the korean casters sometimes say, "Did you see that DK?" on the official live stream!
- Many progamers have retired
- Ax.Crank said on his stream he and many other progamers will retire if the game comes out like this, it's just not fun
- View numbers are in the shitter
- SC2 has been dropped from many high-profile tournaments
All you Blizzard apologists should stop deriding the community and lay the blame where it belongs.
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The negativity in these response posts is disgusting. Blizzard owes us nothing. We've spent $80 on WoL and HotS combined which provided what's probably been thousands of hours of entertainment playing the game and watching professional tournaments (WCS premier basically being a charity foreign pros in 2015 to attempt to keep the scene alive), and I then proceed to demand answers and for my voice to be heard on every real or perceived balance qualm I have, and demand changes/answers to game/unit design while the next expansion is in beta (and hasn't even been played by the REAL pro players, top Korean players, not foreigners besides a select few that can be counted on one hand). I've been around a lot of different gaming communities over the last ten years. Starcraft players, generally, are the most intelligent and articulate gamers. I've been disappointing, and expect much better feedback than I've been seeing on here. I'm diamond NA, therefore I don't share any of my thoughts on design/balance. I will say that if my future son is smart enough to play Starcraft, and ever responded in such a negative way to a lead game designer who's attempting to openly communicate the state of the multiplayer beta to community members, I would slap the sh*t out of him.
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Am I the only one who freaking expoldes with anger when i see another blizzard post about "being deeply concerned with your opinion" followed by imbecile comment on how they *cough.. * "designed" liberator with the help of the community. Fucking what? "We made liberator with ground weapon only but suddenly realised (due to feedback (!!!!!) that it overlaps with siege tank (fuck yes you need ~100k people to provide feedback on fucking obvious things, next time they will need feedback to realise they live on earth) and deсided to make it (!!!!!) a valkyrie (what?). This is just pathetic. Some mental desorder is clearly an issue here. The question is how can one design RTS with such a disease.
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On June 18 2015 14:56 ClaudeSc2 wrote:
The negativity in these response posts is disgusting. Blizzard owes us nothing. We've spent $80 on WoL and HotS combined which provided what's probably been thousands of hours of entertainment playing the game and watching professional tournaments (WCS premier basically being a charity foreign pros in 2015 to attempt to keep the scene alive), and I then proceed to demand answers and for my voice to be heard on every real or perceived balance qualm I have, and demand changes/answers to game/unit design while the next expansion is in beta (and hasn't even been played by the REAL pro players, top Korean players, not foreigners besides a select few that can be counted on one hand). I've been around a lot of different gaming communities over the last ten years. Starcraft players, generally, are the most intelligent and articulate gamers. I've been disappointing, and expect much better feedback than I've been seeing on here. I'm diamond NA, therefore I don't share any of my thoughts on design/balance. I will say that if my future son is smart enough to play Starcraft, and ever responded in such a negative way to a lead game designer who's attempting to openly communicate the state of the multiplayer beta to community members, I would slap the sh*t out of him.
1.) Derides community for not living up to expected level of sophistication.
2.) Threatens to beat his children.
I like your style, friend.
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On June 18 2015 13:20 Antonidas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 06:02 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:The Liberator wouldn’t exist without the community’s input. Right off the bat I'm puzzled xD I don't remember this being the case at all. You have read every message on the internet?
Yes. I am the matrix. -. -
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On June 18 2015 06:46 whetherbye wrote:
Unfortunately, the disappointed folks (or just the perpetually angry people) are usually the vocal majority. So that means, once a change is made, the people who like that change are quiet, and the people who don't like that change start talking. Now if Blizzard changes that back, then the original people who liked it, get upset and start talking while the people who are now happy stop. So basically, as usual, there are always people who are disappointed because everyone prefers something different. Blizzard can't please everyone.
I feel what was said here is more or less true. When people are happy with a product they generally stay quiet and carry on per normal. When they're dissatisfied, they will make a noise and complain. Personally I think it's a no win for blizzard however you look at it but hey at least they are taking thoughts and opinions into consideration. I, for one, am one of these people who tend to not say much at all because I think let them do as they think is reasonable.
Do I have criticism to give them? Yes. I do think that protoss units need some serious reworking and fixes. But I'm not going to go tell them straight up everything sucks. Please redesign the whole race without offering any solutions to what I think the problems are.
Rather than continuously give negative feedback to Blizzard...how about we start of with what we think is working well at the moment followed up by what things should change, why and how to fix it.
I managed of a group of people for a few years in my previous job, if there is anything I learnt it is that people tend to respond better to criticism when you precede it with something positive and something that they do well. If you tell them straight off the bat that they're wrong and they need to fix this this and this...90% of the time that method will have adverse effects and productivity goes down instead of going up.
The Blog posts on here by qxc have, by far, been the most useful information I've seen with regards to the development of LotV. If there is any to take from his blogs, it is the manner in which he conveys his thoughts and ideas.
I very much doubt that LotV is going to be a perfect game; because all of us have different ideas of what perfection is. But I do think that it should be given a chance, at the very least, as the game that Blizzard envisioned.
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On June 18 2015 14:37 Spect8rCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 13:41 ETisME wrote:On June 18 2015 13:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On June 18 2015 12:35 ETisME wrote:
I have been playing a lot of heroes of the storm and the community is just so much more positive.
It's not even like they don't have a lot of flaws and "missing" features and they even are directly competing against the two biggest esport games but no one goes all negative at all.
(just a few complains that you would think people react far worse such as leavers and afk)
I don't know what's wrong with the sc2 community at all. The constant negativity, the expectations, the complains and just the overall toxicity. What if I've thought that Protoss is literally metaphorical shit since 2010, like one of the worst designed things in any video game that I've ever come across in my entire life, and for the last 5 years I've been waiting and praying and hoping for the TFT-scale overhaul that would make the race watchable without swearing at the top of my lungs? Do you think that over the course of these 5 years my frustration level has gone up or down? Now, taking into consideration that LOTV is Blizzard's last possible opportunity to make huge changes to the game, is this the time for me (or any dissatisfied player/spectator) to be more or less vocal than ever before? Well then unfortunately you are just putting yourself into a pit where you keep playing a game which has a third what you hated. It is time to realise that there are almost no alternatives out there, and that is because a huge lack of interest. And blizzard cannot make a sc2 that satisfied every one in the rts genre. If sc2 was as popular and alive, these so called flaw would have been called "features" of the game and won't be considered as negative. I have said this a long time ago, go ahead and play alternatives like starbow or even going back to bw. Players are free to choose and sc2 is still the most played somehow. Why keep complaining and playing the game you despise and act as if it's the game's fault Wait... did you just say "there are next-to-nil alternatives, but you are free to choose from these few options!"?
The key word you are missing is "almost".
Because some people like me don't consider them as a solid candidate as an alternative
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On June 18 2015 13:06 Antonidas wrote:
eh, I don't have the time or will to read all the comments on the internet, or know even if that's a somewhat reasonable method to assess what people want in LoTV, but I wonder how much these overly zealous people actually represent the actual majority. That's the problem of this feedback system and being too open to the community. You're going to encounter a lot of bad opinions.
Look at the overall feedback to any DotA 2 patch ever and tell me how many "bad opinions" you find. Then come back and try to make the same point about how opening up to the community only appeals to negativity.
I'm fed up with people thinking that the vast majority of human beings are brainless wankers. Most of the things that are complained about in these forums have been central and major for five years (Chat and CG systems, Protoss, smartcasting, unit behavior, etc.), Blizzard has done NOTHING substantial to put these complains to rest.
It's the beta of the last add-on and, as such, the last chance for SC2 to actually become the game it was meant to be. It's only natural that the community becomes more and more agressive.
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EPT
