EPTPreseason 2016 Changes - Page 17
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On November 04 2015 20:42 Numy wrote: I guess you don't frequent LL enough if you going to try dismiss people as "white knights for Riot". We bash Riot more than anyone else lol. It just so happens I don't really think this change is as horrible as you do. I know it's inconceivable people can have differing opinions without having some kind of twisted moral agenda. You are mad, incredibly so. Your posting speaks of someone blowing a fuse. That's why I suggested you chill out a bit then formulate your concerns. No one benefits from angry discussion. Me being angry has nothing to do with this discussion. I laid out my concerns, which are unadressable, because these are facts: - I will be forced to play with 3 or 4-men premades. Period. - I will share the same ladder as people playing in 3, 4, or the biggest joke, 5-men premades. Period. I am angry, but I am still stating the facts which will ruin the solo queue experience, and having to listen to hippy talks like some of you guys make here is just ridiculous. You tell me to calm down, while ignore the guy who said this change is beneficial because it's a team game and it's meant to be played that way? Like, within 24 hours solo queuers became the obstacle of something great and we are actually the problem? Really? In my book, being ignorant is a much more serious "crime" in an argument, than being mad. You too completely ignore the fact that #soloqueuelivesmatter, and just spam the PR talk. You yourself said Dota2 works this way too with different ladders. Even your own example is against you, even if you typed it out calmly. | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On November 04 2015 20:49 Numy wrote: Volband you asked earlier if Dota 2 had 4 man queues. Looks like since I played in 4 man they changed it so you can only part as 1-3 and 5 in ranked queue. Would this one change make you less upset? A seperate ladder is a must. Until it's not done, there is no point of discussing the new ranked system any further. (Solo and duo could still share the same ladder though) If it's done, then I wouldn't be happy for the 3-men premades, but that is something where I'd need to have actual experience with them to know if it's really that bad or not. I believe it would suck game experience wise for the solo players, but I'd give it a pass because in return, we get a nice new way to queue up and get our favorite positions all the time. On November 04 2015 20:46 Frolossus wrote: the larger ratio of solo to 4man's is what prevents it from always being you every game. additionally the fact that the queue is supposed to prioritize matching solo players with and against solo players. Man, there are 3-men premades too, and a 3-men premade vs a 3-men premade means 4 solo players total in one game. Yes, you have to be quite unlucky to be matched with a 4-men premade, but 3-men will be definitely more common, and the chances to get in there as a solo player are DOUBLED compared to getting into 4-men. And don't forget you have to add these up, because both are pretty much nightmare for solo people (unless they play top lane, I guess), and then you'll be closer to the truth. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On November 04 2015 20:49 Numy wrote: Volband you asked earlier if Dota 2 had 4 man queues. Looks like since I played in 4 man they changed it so you can only part as 1-3 and 5 in ranked queue. Would this one change make you less upset? I remember when they made this change, we were furious, because we were playing as 4 for like 5 years :p But I can see that being one lonely guy in full stack is pretty sad sometimes. | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On November 04 2015 21:01 Numy wrote: Dota 2 doesn't have different ladders, merely different mmr. CSGO doesn't have either of those things, just one queue. The guy who replied to you said you get solo rating. I don't play Dota so I assumed it's like a different ladder, but now I don't understand. CS:GO is fine, I don't mind a system like that in games like that. It's not the place for LoL however, where the solo experience is day and night compared to the premade one. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On November 04 2015 21:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: I remember when they made this change, we were furious, because we were playing as 4 for like 5 years :p But I can see that being one lonely guy in full stack is pretty sad sometimes. I only really play in 2-3 man stacks so didn't even realize this change. League has always felt like a rather lonely game to me so if this change helps that then I don't mind. Always found it weird how pub games were so serious in league where as 5v5 was almost forgotten anyway. On November 04 2015 21:06 Volband wrote: The guy who replied to you said you get solo rating. I don't play Dota so I assumed it's like a different ladder, but now I don't understand. CS:GO is fine, I don't mind a system like that in games like that. It's not the place for LoL however, where the solo experience is day and night compared to the premade one. Think of it as two separate ladder points but all within the same player pool. So there's two "ladders" in the sense that people get points differently if they queue party or solo but they all play in the same game. So if you queue solo you may still land up in a team with 3 man party but you'll win/lose MMR on your "Solo rating" instead of "Party rating" | ||
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
Anyway, no need to be a dick about it. People disagree with you on the internet sometimes. It happens. It's not about being ignorant or stupid. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3rgb7x/hots_had_dynamic_queue_and_everyone_hated_it/cwnxtqw | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On November 04 2015 21:06 Numy wrote: I only really play in 2-3 man stacks so didn't even realize this change. League has always felt like a rather lonely game to me so if this change helps that then I don't mind. Always found it weird how pub games were so serious in league where as 5v5 was almost forgotten anyway. Think of it as two separate ladder points but all within the same player pool. So there's two "ladders" in the sense that people get points differently if they queue party or solo but they all play in the same game. So if you queue solo you may still land up in a team with 3 man party but you'll win/lose MMR on your "Solo rating" instead of "Party rating" Well, if you get more points for being solo, I guess it can work. No 4 or 5-men premades, still though. There's team ranked for 5 players, and 4 is just a torture for the solo player. 3 should be enough for people like you to not feel lonely, compared to solo or duo. On November 04 2015 21:09 Amarok wrote: Lol. Hippy guy. That's pretty funny. Anyway, no need to be a dick about it. People disagree with you on the internet sometimes. It happens. It's not about being ignorant or stupid. Disagreeing with me won't make anyone ignorant. Typing out the stuff you did in the previous page, however, do. (If you get paid for it though, I can't blame you. I'd probably take the offer as well.) | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
dunno where you got the idea people dont think soloq is a joke | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On November 04 2015 21:10 Frolossus wrote: i think that because of how the draft is going to be structured these issues won't be prominent enough to worry about https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3rgb7x/hots_had_dynamic_queue_and_everyone_hated_it/cwnxtqw Holy shit...... The only thing he addressed people like me with is saying he knows it will frustrate us. Damn, Lyte, thanks, now I feel better! You guys seriously shouldn't blame anyone for being angry at Riot, when in a 723 words long post all we get is that they are aware that they are fucking us over. On November 04 2015 21:15 nafta wrote: 5v5 isnt played much because it is hard to get 5 people who are at an even close to a similar level to play frequently. Solo is just more convenient and by adding teams it ruins the whole idea. Duo needs to be removed as well but instead riot are going full retard. I think duo is fine. It has just as many benefit as drawbacks. The problem starts at 3, where the balance just completely breaks, and at 4 and 5 it is not even worth mentioning. I'm happy they get a party bonus though, well-deserved, really. What a joke. | ||
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
On November 04 2015 21:10 Volband wrote: Disagreeing with me won't make anyone ignorant. Typing out the stuff you did in the previous page, however, do. No it really isn't. It's about actually having a broader perspective than yours. It seems to me you place an enormous value on your league ranking as a mark of your personal performance. That is and always has been flawed, not because the system doesn't eventually get you to where you deserve to be, but because playing with randoms is often a horrible experience that turns people off long before they get there. Allowing people to queue up with as many people as they have available will mean less people playing with people they don't know, hell it might even start to force people to communicate and make friends. What a crazy prospect eh. The system now encourages you to group. If you can't see how that's a positive for a game with an enormous social component, well maybe you'll come to when the red mist clears. Besides, the system works in DotA2. If nothing else that proves it won't be the end of the world and maybe people should give it a shot before flipping out. | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On November 04 2015 21:23 Amarok wrote: No it really isn't. It's about actually having a broader perspective than yours. It seems to me you place an enormous value on your league ranking as a mark of your personal performance. That is and always has been flawed, not because the system doesn't eventually get you to where you deserve to be, but because playing with randoms is often a horrible experience that turns people off long before they get there. Allowing people to queue up with as many people as they have available will mean less people playing with people they don't know, hell it might even start to force people to communicate and make friends. What a crazy prospect eh. The system now encourages you to group. If you can't see how that's a positive for a game with an enormous social component, well maybe you'll come to when the red mist clears. Besides, the system works in DotA2. If nothing else that proves it won't be the end of the world and maybe people should give it a shot before flipping out. Your broader perspective means ignoring mine, and your reasoning is probably because your perspective is better, which is entirely subjective. You casually dismiss the fact, that I will not be able to play the game I enjoyed for years now. And it's not just some qq because my favorite champion got reworked or nerfed for example. No, I am denied to play solo queue and I am denied to have a ranking system where I can follow my own progress. I mean, I guess I can use it for that, but how much will it matter, when the ranks itself are inflated? Why I have to do 3 times as much as some idiot in premade 5s? Communication has been the part of soloqueue, you just have to ignore bronze, silver and low gold. No, we did not craft sick 5-men startegies, obviously, but we helped each other, communicated and sometimes pulled off some sick comeback, purely because we were there for each other. Why am I forced to go to the voice comm of the 3/4-men premade if I want to win? It's not that I am anti-social, but I don't feel well at all when I'm almost literally forced to interact with a group of friends I don't even know of. Is this supposed to be the game in its' full glory? Give me a break. Is it too much for ask to have a decent solo experience, and not getting barked at for not following the 3>2 or 4>1 rule? Is it too much to ask to have a ladder, where I can be proud of my "internet points"? This system doesn't encourage me to group, it encourages me to surrender at others will. "Pick this or that please, because we always play this comp! Come mid Volband, we are 3/4, so don't be the odd one out! We are going to do Baron, so you will come, NOW! All right, we think it's lost se we are just going to surrender it, thanks bye." Edit: and what hurts me the most, that while you guys have plenty of way to play as 3/4/5 friends, you want this dynamic ranked so badly, so you can get meaningless lp (for the same thing you can do now in team builder or fun ranked 5s), because let's face it, it is meaningless when you can just queue up as a big group, but you still want it, despite knowing it will entirely erase the solo experience many of us liked and loved for years. You act like the kid who has 99 mathboxes, but now wants my only one, because he doesn't have that one. | ||
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
Anyway I agree that the experience may not be as satisfying for someone who only wants to play solo, I just don't think that catering to the solo player is a good way to improve the health of a game like this. I also don't think premades are going to be unable to be communicated with. These are the same people you're able to communicate with in solo queue currently so why should anything change? And if you do get the odd occasion where a premade is toxic how does that differ to the current environment? There's toxic assholes everywhere in the solo/duo environment. Write that game off and move on like you would currently. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On November 04 2015 21:48 Amarok wrote: Maybe try to start conversations on grounds that aren't "you're ignorant" if you don't want to be "casually dismissed". There's plenty of people here making pretty good points that warrant good discussion, there's no need to be so ragey. Anyway I agree that the experience may not be as satisfying for someone who only wants to play solo, I just don't think that catering to the solo player is a good way to improve the health of a game like this. I also don't think premades are going to be unable to be communicated with. These are the same people you're able to communicate with in solo queue currently so why should anything change? And if you do get the odd occasion where a premade is toxic how does that differ to the current environment? There's toxic assholes everywhere in the solo/duo environment. Write that game off and move on like you would currently. Currently, toxic assholes are not coming in a package. The biggest complaint about the current ranked system were: 1. only team captains can ban 2. pick order makes for many frustrating situations Riot addressed these, and then set it all on fire. No one asked for the latter. And maybe I wouldn't have called you ignorant, if you initial response hadn't been "but it's a team game so it's good!", ignoring the fact that countless people enjoyed and loved the current solo queue, and can't even remember anyone asking for a 5men rankeds or other stupidities like that, On November 04 2015 21:53 nafta wrote: Tbh your only point is "this is a team game". But you are basically ruining soloq. Why not add a new game mode where you que as 2/3 and leave solo que? 4man should just not exist. It is retarded. I'm still voting for solo/duo, 3men and 5men, but yes, the right thing to do is to separate it some way. I wouldn't even care if people playing in 3men or 5men would get more IP or stuff like that. All I want is my solo (or duo) queue. If others want to have happy little mini team rankeds, I won't covet it from them, let them have it. Just don't completely kill off the game I loved and known for years now. | ||
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
On November 04 2015 21:53 nafta wrote: Tbh your only point is "this is a team game". But you are basically ruining soloq. Why not add a new game mode where you que as 2/3 and leave solo que? 4man should just not exist. It is retarded. Well I think it's a pretty huge point. I honestly think part of the problem with this game has been that many people have a mindset that their performance is more important than the teams and that stems from the fact that people play by themselves most of the time. And I think the jury is still out on whether this will "ruin" solo queue. 5 mans are going to be matched against 5 mans and they've said the system is going to prioritize putting partial premades against each other. The vast majority of your games are going to be with solo/duos anyway if you play solo. Depends how it works out I guess but I don't think the concept is completely flawed. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On November 04 2015 22:05 Amarok wrote: Well I think it's a pretty huge point. I honestly think part of the problem with this game has been that many people have a mindset that their performance is more important than the teams and that stems from the fact that people play by themselves most of the time. And I think the jury is still out on whether this will "ruin" solo queue. 5 mans are going to be matched against 5 mans and they've said the system is going to prioritize putting partial premades against each other. The vast majority of your games are going to be with solo/duos anyway if you play solo. Depends how it works out I guess but I don't think the concept is completely flawed. YEA GEE I WONDER WHY PEOPLE PREFER TO DO THINGS THEMSELVES RATHER THAN HOPE RANDOM STRANGERS OVER THE INTERNET ARE COMPETENT? WHAT AN INSANE CONCEPT. Every game of soloq the only constant factor is yourself so obviously you should value your performance more than anythnig else. The jury isn't out. It will not ruin soloq because it will remove it from existance. Yea it says it will try to match premades with each other but when you get to higher than d4 or so that means either your que times will increase or the more likely option is you will have one every game. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Probably moving my stance on this issue from neutral to a hesitant positive after reading that. | ||
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