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On August 06 2015 09:09 JonGalt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 08:44 Sufficiency wrote:On August 06 2015 08:35 nafta wrote:On August 06 2015 08:18 Sufficiency wrote:
I am not sure why Riot even made a statement about sandbox. It was obviously not going to happen. Not like it matters.They will just wait for people to forget/get tired of complaining and move on in typical riot fashion. That's not my point. Imagine there is a rally for McDonald's to give away free Big Macs 365 days a year - because Big Macs are so darned delicious and everyone likes Big Macs. Then McDonald's will just be quiet about it instead of making some BS PR reasons - since the request to give away free Big Macs is so ridiculous that it's not worth making a statement for. Riot making a sandbox is about equally ridiculous. Fundamentally, League of Legends is a game and you play it to have fun - singleplayer sandbox training wheel is NOT FUN. If you think sandbox training is fun, you are almost certainly too addicted to the game and you should re-evaluate your life choices. There is absolutely no reasons whatsoever that Riot should spend the resources to make something that is intrinsically not fun. ... And yet the Riot API you use to spend countless amount of hours and computing power to produce statistics for this game is somehow intrinsically fun? mfw Sufficiency needs to re-evaluate his life.
1. I get paid for doing it.
2. It builds my experience and my resume.
3. I believe it played a positive role in obtaining my current job.
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On August 06 2015 08:44 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 08:35 nafta wrote:On August 06 2015 08:18 Sufficiency wrote:
I am not sure why Riot even made a statement about sandbox. It was obviously not going to happen. Not like it matters.They will just wait for people to forget/get tired of complaining and move on in typical riot fashion. That's not my point. Imagine there is a rally for McDonald's to give away free Big Macs 365 days a year - because Big Macs are so darned delicious and everyone likes Big Macs. Then McDonald's will just be quiet about it instead of making some BS PR reasons - since the request to give away free Big Macs is so ridiculous that it's not worth making a statement for. Riot making a sandbox is about equally ridiculous. Fundamentally, League of Legends is a game and you play it to have fun - singleplayer sandbox training wheel is NOT FUN. If you think sandbox training is fun, you are almost certainly too addicted to the game and you should re-evaluate your life choices. There is absolutely no reasons whatsoever that Riot should spend the resources to make something that is intrinsically not fun.
Then why don't Riot just release proper documentation for all the abilities and items in their game rather than forcing community members to go through hundreds unfun testing to document them?
People take the wiki for granted. Virtually all we actually know about how things in this game work come from hundreds of hours of community volunteers testing interactions despite the game being totally inhospitable to that kind of testing. If Riot does not want to facilitate this, then they should just tell us how things work themselves, seeing as they have the actual backend code of the game and should already have that all documented internally anyway.
Riot's own public documentation of champion abilities and items is actually woefully inadequate if you look at the Game Info page of the LoL website. Everyone pretty much falls back on the wiki for any meaningful information about the game, and Riot doesn't seem to recognize this kind of work at all.
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It's not your place to tell people what is and isn't fun for them, Sufficiency.
Making the Lux guide was fun for me. I never expected to get anything out of it other than fun and a lot of grief from Cheep and Lastshadow.
A sandbox mode would have made it a lot easier to make that guide, and probably would have made it more fun.
If somebody thinks flashing over walls for 30 minutes is fun, why restrict that? The argument of "that's not actually fun" is arbitrary and dumb.
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On August 06 2015 08:44 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 08:35 nafta wrote:On August 06 2015 08:18 Sufficiency wrote:
I am not sure why Riot even made a statement about sandbox. It was obviously not going to happen. Not like it matters.They will just wait for people to forget/get tired of complaining and move on in typical riot fashion. That's not my point. Imagine there is a rally for McDonald's to give away free Big Macs 365 days a year - because Big Macs are so darned delicious and everyone likes Big Macs. Then McDonald's will just be quiet about it instead of making some BS PR reasons - since the request to give away free Big Macs is so ridiculous that it's not worth making a statement for. Riot making a sandbox is about equally ridiculous. Fundamentally, League of Legends is a game and you play it to have fun - singleplayer sandbox training wheel is NOT FUN. If you think sandbox training is fun, you are almost certainly too addicted to the game and you should re-evaluate your life choices. There is absolutely no reasons whatsoever that Riot should spend the resources to make something that is intrinsically not fun.
With that logic, having a sandbox mode in any game is ridiculous. OH WAIT, NEARLY EVERY OTHER COMPETITIVE GAME HAS A SANDBOX MODE. WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK.
Honestly though it's probably because Riot would break the game if they did sandbox but wanted an excuse. Albeit a terrible one that makes absolutely 0 sense
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On August 06 2015 09:15 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 08:44 Sufficiency wrote:On August 06 2015 08:35 nafta wrote:On August 06 2015 08:18 Sufficiency wrote:
I am not sure why Riot even made a statement about sandbox. It was obviously not going to happen. Not like it matters.They will just wait for people to forget/get tired of complaining and move on in typical riot fashion. That's not my point. Imagine there is a rally for McDonald's to give away free Big Macs 365 days a year - because Big Macs are so darned delicious and everyone likes Big Macs. Then McDonald's will just be quiet about it instead of making some BS PR reasons - since the request to give away free Big Macs is so ridiculous that it's not worth making a statement for. Riot making a sandbox is about equally ridiculous. Fundamentally, League of Legends is a game and you play it to have fun - singleplayer sandbox training wheel is NOT FUN. If you think sandbox training is fun, you are almost certainly too addicted to the game and you should re-evaluate your life choices. There is absolutely no reasons whatsoever that Riot should spend the resources to make something that is intrinsically not fun. Then why don't Riot just release proper documentation for all the abilities and items in their game rather than forcing community members to go through hundreds unfun testing to document them?
Not sure what you mean by this, but it takes a huge amount of effort to keep documentations up to date from patch to patch, considering how many champions and champion combinations there are.
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On August 06 2015 09:17 Sufficiency wrote:
Not sure what you mean by this, but it takes a huge amount of effort to keep documentations up to date from patch to patch, considering how many champions and champion combinations there are.
Compare the information about any given champion available through in-game info or Riot's own Game Info page vs. the information on the wiki. Riot basically tells you no detailed information about champions. Hell, to even find out what stats a champion has at a given level, you have to dig out the patch 4.20 notes because no other player-facing documentation lists the growth statistic formula. If you weren't already playing the game when patch 4.20 came out, you would never find out about the nonlinear stat growth formula reading Riot's own documentation about the game. Acquiring anything more than the most superficial understanding of a champion requires you to use the wiki, which is all community-gathered data through testing like that which a sandbox mode would enable.
Things like cast animation length, unit collision sizes, projectile speeds, skillshot hitboxes--these are among the bits of data that are incredibly painstaking to mine from the game itself, and damn near impossible if you have to wait for long CDs between testing iterations. But they're all hard-coded numbers in the game that somewhere on the backend can simply be dug up from the code. If Riot doesn't want to enable players to figure out properties of the game on their own, then provide us with the numbers themselves.
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On August 06 2015 09:17 thejuju wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 08:44 Sufficiency wrote:On August 06 2015 08:35 nafta wrote:On August 06 2015 08:18 Sufficiency wrote:
I am not sure why Riot even made a statement about sandbox. It was obviously not going to happen. Not like it matters.They will just wait for people to forget/get tired of complaining and move on in typical riot fashion. That's not my point. Imagine there is a rally for McDonald's to give away free Big Macs 365 days a year - because Big Macs are so darned delicious and everyone likes Big Macs. Then McDonald's will just be quiet about it instead of making some BS PR reasons - since the request to give away free Big Macs is so ridiculous that it's not worth making a statement for. Riot making a sandbox is about equally ridiculous. Fundamentally, League of Legends is a game and you play it to have fun - singleplayer sandbox training wheel is NOT FUN. If you think sandbox training is fun, you are almost certainly too addicted to the game and you should re-evaluate your life choices. There is absolutely no reasons whatsoever that Riot should spend the resources to make something that is intrinsically not fun. With that logic, having a sandbox mode in any game is ridiculous. OH WAIT, NEARLY EVERY OTHER COMPETITIVE GAME HAS A SANDBOX MODE. WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK. Honestly though it's probably because Riot would break the game if they did sandbox but wanted an excuse. Albeit a terrible one that makes absolutely 0 sense
Personally, I think it's because they're worried that scripters/hackers will have a field day with a sandbox mode.
Still, while I completely understand the no-replays stance since server capacity is an issue, the no-sandbox stance is just stupid. Literally every other competitive game in the world has a sandbox mode.
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On August 06 2015 09:25 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 09:17 thejuju wrote:On August 06 2015 08:44 Sufficiency wrote:On August 06 2015 08:35 nafta wrote:On August 06 2015 08:18 Sufficiency wrote:
I am not sure why Riot even made a statement about sandbox. It was obviously not going to happen. Not like it matters.They will just wait for people to forget/get tired of complaining and move on in typical riot fashion. That's not my point. Imagine there is a rally for McDonald's to give away free Big Macs 365 days a year - because Big Macs are so darned delicious and everyone likes Big Macs. Then McDonald's will just be quiet about it instead of making some BS PR reasons - since the request to give away free Big Macs is so ridiculous that it's not worth making a statement for. Riot making a sandbox is about equally ridiculous. Fundamentally, League of Legends is a game and you play it to have fun - singleplayer sandbox training wheel is NOT FUN. If you think sandbox training is fun, you are almost certainly too addicted to the game and you should re-evaluate your life choices. There is absolutely no reasons whatsoever that Riot should spend the resources to make something that is intrinsically not fun. With that logic, having a sandbox mode in any game is ridiculous. OH WAIT, NEARLY EVERY OTHER COMPETITIVE GAME HAS A SANDBOX MODE. WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK. Honestly though it's probably because Riot would break the game if they did sandbox but wanted an excuse. Albeit a terrible one that makes absolutely 0 sense Personally, I think it's because they're worried that scripters/hackers will have a field day with a sandbox mode. Still, while I completely understand the no-replays stance since server capacity is an issue, the no-sandbox stance is just stupid. Literally every other competitive game in the world has a sandbox mode.
hearthstone doesn't have one checkmate
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United States47024 Posts
And the fact that Hearthstone does not have a well-documented rulebook is also one of the big points of community contention.
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On August 06 2015 09:17 thejuju wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 08:44 Sufficiency wrote:On August 06 2015 08:35 nafta wrote:On August 06 2015 08:18 Sufficiency wrote:
I am not sure why Riot even made a statement about sandbox. It was obviously not going to happen. Not like it matters.They will just wait for people to forget/get tired of complaining and move on in typical riot fashion. That's not my point. Imagine there is a rally for McDonald's to give away free Big Macs 365 days a year - because Big Macs are so darned delicious and everyone likes Big Macs. Then McDonald's will just be quiet about it instead of making some BS PR reasons - since the request to give away free Big Macs is so ridiculous that it's not worth making a statement for. Riot making a sandbox is about equally ridiculous. Fundamentally, League of Legends is a game and you play it to have fun - singleplayer sandbox training wheel is NOT FUN. If you think sandbox training is fun, you are almost certainly too addicted to the game and you should re-evaluate your life choices. There is absolutely no reasons whatsoever that Riot should spend the resources to make something that is intrinsically not fun. With that logic, having a sandbox mode in any game is ridiculous. OH WAIT, NEARLY EVERY OTHER COMPETITIVE GAME HAS A SANDBOX MODE. WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK. Honestly though it's probably because Riot would break the game if they did sandbox but wanted an excuse. Albeit a terrible one that makes absolutely 0 sense
I saw this coming but I will just tell you that you are wrong on this one.
I am just going to use the example of Starcraft 2 for now but it's actually the same with SC:BW, War3, Dota2, etc.
It's true that SC2 technically has a sandbox mode. But the reality is that SC2 has way more than just a sandbox mode. SC2 has a custom map mode where you can edit and make maps yourself using the massive amount of visual assets from SC2 in combination of a powerful script editor with GUI. League of Legends can't do this, because:
1. LoL has very few actual visual assets to make maps from.
2. It will be a massive undertaking for Riot to do it at this point. Technology debts and all that.
3. LoL is free to play whereas Blizzard games sell copies so the business model is completely different.
Custom maps with a good GUI map editor is really good - Blizzard knows this, which is why all their RTS games come with it. But their games have an upfront cost and you can't compare it with LoL where Riot would have little means to monetize custom maps (unless Riot sells them like Besthesda paid mods, but let's not go there).
Dota2 is a little different, but I still want to note that Valve operates fundamentally different from Riot. Valve has not only game titles themselves, they more importantly have a digital distribution platform. I don't have any numbers on Valve so I can only speculate at this point, but it's not hard to see that the fact that you need Steam to play Dota2 makes it very different from League of Legends.
EDIT: also want to point out that for Blizzard, making the map editor is simply part of their overhead costs - since they also need to make a campaign and they need a working map editor to make all the campaign maps. Even for Blizzard, they always say explicitly that they do not officially support their map editor.
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On August 06 2015 09:29 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 09:25 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 06 2015 09:17 thejuju wrote:On August 06 2015 08:44 Sufficiency wrote:On August 06 2015 08:35 nafta wrote:On August 06 2015 08:18 Sufficiency wrote:
I am not sure why Riot even made a statement about sandbox. It was obviously not going to happen. Not like it matters.They will just wait for people to forget/get tired of complaining and move on in typical riot fashion. That's not my point. Imagine there is a rally for McDonald's to give away free Big Macs 365 days a year - because Big Macs are so darned delicious and everyone likes Big Macs. Then McDonald's will just be quiet about it instead of making some BS PR reasons - since the request to give away free Big Macs is so ridiculous that it's not worth making a statement for. Riot making a sandbox is about equally ridiculous. Fundamentally, League of Legends is a game and you play it to have fun - singleplayer sandbox training wheel is NOT FUN. If you think sandbox training is fun, you are almost certainly too addicted to the game and you should re-evaluate your life choices. There is absolutely no reasons whatsoever that Riot should spend the resources to make something that is intrinsically not fun. With that logic, having a sandbox mode in any game is ridiculous. OH WAIT, NEARLY EVERY OTHER COMPETITIVE GAME HAS A SANDBOX MODE. WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK. Honestly though it's probably because Riot would break the game if they did sandbox but wanted an excuse. Albeit a terrible one that makes absolutely 0 sense Personally, I think it's because they're worried that scripters/hackers will have a field day with a sandbox mode. Still, while I completely understand the no-replays stance since server capacity is an issue, the no-sandbox stance is just stupid. Literally every other competitive game in the world has a sandbox mode. hearthstone doesn't have one checkmate
"literally" has literally become a metaphor for "metaphorically"
+ Show Spoiler +I'm just being metaphorical here
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I don't think the "it's too difficult" argument works either.
A sandbox mode would be really similar to URF, and they have the architecture to make custom modes. Just reduce all cooldowns by 90% and start players with 100k gold and you've got what is basically a sandbox mode for practicing things.
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On August 06 2015 09:24 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 09:17 Sufficiency wrote:
Not sure what you mean by this, but it takes a huge amount of effort to keep documentations up to date from patch to patch, considering how many champions and champion combinations there are.
Compare the information about any given champion available through in-game info or Riot's own Game Info page vs. the information on the wiki. Riot basically tells you no detailed information about champions. Hell, to even find out what stats a champion has at a given level, you have to dig out the patch 4.20 notes because no other player-facing documentation lists the growth statistic formula. If you weren't already playing the game when patch 4.20 came out, you would never find out about the nonlinear stat growth formula reading Riot's own documentation about the game. Acquiring anything more than the most superficial understanding of a champion requires you to use the wiki, which is all community-gathered data through testing like that which a sandbox mode would enable. Things like cast animation length, unit collision sizes, projectile speeds, skillshot hitboxes--these are among the bits of data that are incredibly painstaking to mine from the game itself, and damn near impossible if you have to wait for long CDs between testing iterations. But they're all hard-coded numbers in the game that somewhere on the backend can simply be dug up from the code. If Riot doesn't want to enable players to figure out properties of the game on their own, then provide us with the numbers themselves.
Riot should list things like AP ratios, but I do not believe an average player cares if a skill has a 0.1 or 0.15 seconds delay. I am not sure if anyone even noticed that Chogath had a random delay on his Q until Riot changed it. You are the special 1% who is keen on this kinds of things, but I can definitely see this kind of documentation as a "nice-to-have" low priority project when there are bigger problems to tackle.
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On August 06 2015 09:34 Sufficiency wrote:
Riot should list things like AP ratios, but I do not believe an average player cares if a skill has a 0.1 or 0.15 seconds delay. I am not sure if anyone even noticed that Chogath had a random delay on his Q until Riot changed it. You are the special 1% who is keen on this kinds of things, but I can definitely see this kind of documentation as a "nice-to-have" low priority project when there are bigger problems to tackle.
If you are going to make the game at the highest level all about technical minutiae like skillshots (which increasingly seems like a goal for Riot), then it is an absolute requirement that player-facing documentation has that information available to those at the highest level of play.
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On August 06 2015 09:38 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 09:34 Sufficiency wrote:
Riot should list things like AP ratios, but I do not believe an average player cares if a skill has a 0.1 or 0.15 seconds delay. I am not sure if anyone even noticed that Chogath had a random delay on his Q until Riot changed it. You are the special 1% who is keen on this kinds of things, but I can definitely see this kind of documentation as a "nice-to-have" low priority project when there are bigger problems to tackle. If you are going to make the game at the highest level all about technical minutiae like skillshots (which increasingly seems like a goal for Riot), then it is an absolute requirement that player-facing documentation has that information available to those at the highest level of play.
And the players of the highest level have all of the information you've mentioned from community sources. Why bother spending the time and money doing it yourself when the fans of the game can do it for you?
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On August 06 2015 09:33 Ketara wrote:
I don't think the "it's too difficult" argument works either.
A sandbox mode would be really similar to URF, and they have the architecture to make custom modes. Just reduce all cooldowns by 90% and start players with 100k gold and you've got what is basically a sandbox mode for practicing things.
Why not put people on Mars?
Why not eradicate wars?
Why not eliminate fossil fuels?
User was temp banned for this post.
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That's dumb.
Now you're being dumb.
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On August 06 2015 09:52 Ketara wrote:
That's dumb.
Now you're being dumb.
It's slippery slope argument, but "it's difficult" is definitely a good reason why it's not done. Sandbox, by itself, does take some effort since you need to polish it enough that a regular user can use. But perhaps more importantly, like I have mentioned, it's not good because a mere sandbox is half-assed.
A more serious plan would be to create a custom map mode with GUI map editor. But due to Riot's business model and their current "technology debt" it's simply not feasible.
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On August 06 2015 09:42 Sufficiency wrote:
And the players of the highest level have all of the information you've mentioned from community sources. Why bother spending the time and money doing it yourself when the fans of the game can do it for you?
Because of all the things I just mentioned that are virtually impossible to collect with current custom game methods?
The community has done everything it's able to, but there's still tons more information that cannot be collected due to it being utterly infeasible to test some of these things without sandbox mode features.
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On August 06 2015 09:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 09:42 Sufficiency wrote:
And the players of the highest level have all of the information you've mentioned from community sources. Why bother spending the time and money doing it yourself when the fans of the game can do it for you? Because of all the things I just mentioned that are virtually impossible to collect with current custom game methods? The community has done everything it's able to, but there's still tons more information that cannot be collected due to it being utterly infeasible to test some of these things without sandbox mode features.
Here are the things you mentioned:
Things like cast animation length, unit collision sizes, projectile speeds, skillshot hitboxes--these are among the bits of data that are incredibly painstaking to mine from the game itself, and damn near impossible if you have to wait for long CDs between testing iterations. But they're all hard-coded numbers in the game that somewhere on the backend can simply be dug up from the code. If Riot doesn't want to enable players to figure out properties of the game on their own, then provide us with the numbers themselves
Animation length can be measured by recording the game then break it down frame by frame in a low ping environment.
Unit collision size is not possible, but it's more of an academic question since:
a. unlike games like Warcraft 3, collision is rarely a factor in LoL since everything is so small in collision and there are few issues with "blocking" and "surrounding"
b. even if the information is available, it is hard for a player to actually make better decisions from it.
Overall, it's interesting to think about, but useless otherwise
Projectile speed: check lol wiki, or record game footage and count frames
Skillshot width: academic question. see above
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EPT
