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On August 06 2015 05:20 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 04:53 phyvo wrote:On August 06 2015 04:00 VayneAuthority wrote:
im not playing devils advocate here. i would never use a sandbox mode in a multiplayer game. i like that they wont let nerds spend hours in it to get a leg up for no reason other then them having time to waste.
as i said its there convoluted explanation thats funny Grinding games isn't any different in that regard. It doesn't matter what tools you give or don't give the nerds, the nerds will be better than you because they will spend more time on the game. If they do some of the most annoying parts of that by themselves in a custom game, who cares? The end result is exactly the same. It's not like training mode can possibly replace actually playing the game or help people do crazy technical combos no one else can because League doesn't have crazy technical combos (compared to the fighting games Riot is using to justify their opinion). Even if you don't have a training mode there's a lot of places where "nerds" can and do grind mechanics. Nidalee jumps, fizz pole tricks, azir q->e tricks, ward placement, last hitting, and learning to jungle are just a few I can name off the top of my head (I've heard mention of people going into custom games to practice each of them and done most of these myself). So what exactly is the harm in adding high cooldown abilities to this list? "hey weed isnt that bad, let me try heroine now" i don't condone anything that gives people the tools to exploit the game further just because they play more. it would just lead to people dedicated to finding bugs and glitches in the game to gain an advantage and now having a better tool that takes less time to do so. I dont see the benefits outweighing the time they would have to put in this and the downsides.
Seriously? Bugs and glitches? Riot fixes those and bans people for egregiously abusing them. They even have buttons for disabling champions. We already deal with these all the time and outside of the inconvenience it isn't a problem.
Honestly, a training mode would help semi-new players who want to improve far more that crazy veterans who already know everything. Other than the fear of exploits in the code why are you so concerned with how other people are enjoying a competitive game?
On August 06 2015 05:21 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 05:20 VayneAuthority wrote:On August 06 2015 04:53 phyvo wrote:On August 06 2015 04:00 VayneAuthority wrote:
im not playing devils advocate here. i would never use a sandbox mode in a multiplayer game. i like that they wont let nerds spend hours in it to get a leg up for no reason other then them having time to waste.
as i said its there convoluted explanation thats funny Grinding games isn't any different in that regard. It doesn't matter what tools you give or don't give the nerds, the nerds will be better than you because they will spend more time on the game. If they do some of the most annoying parts of that by themselves in a custom game, who cares? The end result is exactly the same. It's not like training mode can possibly replace actually playing the game or help people do crazy technical combos no one else can because League doesn't have crazy technical combos (compared to the fighting games Riot is using to justify their opinion). Even if you don't have a training mode there's a lot of places where "nerds" can and do grind mechanics. Nidalee jumps, fizz pole tricks, azir q->e tricks, ward placement, last hitting, and learning to jungle are just a few I can name off the top of my head (I've heard mention of people going into custom games to practice each of them and done most of these myself). So what exactly is the harm in adding high cooldown abilities to this list? "hey weed isnt that bad, let me try heroine now" i don't condone anything that gives people the tools to exploit the game further just because they play more. it would just lead to people dedicated to finding bugs and glitches in the game to gain an advantage and now having a better tool that takes less time to do so. I dont see the benefits outweighing the time they would have to put in this and the downsides. come on man you can do a better bait than that 4/10
meh, I bit it.
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On August 06 2015 05:34 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 05:26 NeoIllusions wrote:
Quite the PR statement in regards to Sandbox Mode.
FWIW, Riot did have a test realm (Doran's Workshop) where it had some sandbox elements. They had free potions at base that would give two different allotment of gold (to buy items without having to CS), free level up, and summoner skill reset. It wasn't the cleanest implementation of a sandbox mode but it was obviously something play testers could use while they tested champion remakes. That would be pretty cool. It still wouldn't be dota level since there's almost no chance we can control enemy champions to test out say 2 builds. But it'd be a step forwards.
the lol engine can't actually handle a player fully controlling more than 1 unit
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United States47024 Posts
Even being able to create stationary dummy units via a chat command allows a lot of testing that would otherwise be annoying to do.
Like if you wanted to test an ability interaction that involves 3 enemy champions, you need to actually create a custom game WITH 3 PEOPLE ON THE OTHER TEAM.
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On August 06 2015 05:38 TheYango wrote:
Even being able to create stationary dummy units via a chat command allows a lot of testing that would otherwise be annoying to do.
Like if you wanted to test an ability interaction that involves 3 enemy champions, you need to actually create a custom game WITH 3 PEOPLE ON THE OTHER TEAM.
They have one though.A lot of champion spotlights have someone using an ability on 3 annies and shit.They just don't want to release it.
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I feel like people have different concepts of what "sandbox mode" entails. There's really no reason Riot can't add some options to custom games which allow for manual reset of cooldowns, free purchase of items, and easy level ups.
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United States47024 Posts
Or a chat command that gives you the x,y position of your champion/cursor on the map.
Not at all useful for anything related to playing the game, but hugely useful for gathering specific unit/ability data.
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I just read the Sandbox Paragraph(this really should be a new meme somehow). All I can say is wow.
Edit:
It's like saying "We want everyone to learn karate. We think the best way to learn karate is by doing it. We won't give you a dojo or sensei to learn karate, but we still think you should learn it".
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On August 06 2015 05:30 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 05:22 Purge wrote:
Fairly sure Riot doesnt want to release proprietary information by making a sandbox. I just get the feeling that they're very, very afraid of their only product getting copied into oblivion, especially in China where
1. There is massive demand for knockoffs of everything based on sheer numbers alone.
2. Its impossible to hold people accountable.
I could see why they wouldnt release a sandbox mode under those circumstances either. Now that being said, DOTA has one so its not the strongest of excuses at all, though who knows how they get their shit to stay secret and I for one think their entire line of logic is BS if they want this game to be competitive.
Ive almost entirely given up playing league because the time sink is ludicrous if you do have a life and any other demanding hobbies. So for them to tell me that I have to play 40 minute games to improve at all at minute tasks ingame is some truly dissapointing bullshit. Basically what they're saying is "if you want to be any good at this game dedicate to it with very little reservations, or only play one champion."
"Rats, foiled again! If only you'd release a sandbox mode, I could copy your game and take over the world!" -Nobody, 2015
While not exactly the same thing, you could hack the SC2 beta through the beta map editor.
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So the fighting game comparison got me thinking, because trend in recent years has been to make games simpler and make games like Divekick or Nidhogg or Rising Thunder that remove the execution barriers to let players experience what's crucial about fighting games.
But then I remembered that if currently a fighting game didn't have a practice mode, people would just play against CPU to practice their shit because it's that important, while in League it isn't so people rarely do (unless it's CSing). Plus it's mostly people you play longer sessions against that will give you shit for not practicing because then they are wasting time by playing you, in matchmade games it doesn't matter because you're playing those to win so that you can play against better opponents, you don't care how they got good/bad you just care about your own performance.
That's borderline OT I guess but man between sandbox mode topic and PBE stuff I'm overwhelmed with Riot and needed to collect my thoughts at least on one thing.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
its not like there will be a mass exodus of ppl playing sandbox games instead of the game itself. u dont learn gamesense in the sandbox, that comes with experience, ie. playing
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If you wanna talk about something else, give me some info about Tahm Kench!  I haven't played in over 2 weeks and only knew that somehow Riot thought very relevant to buff him (especially the ult's passive), so I expect to face him (and have already) but I'm not sure what can even beat him bot lane.
He's ranged, so like Thresh he's got all the tools to beat harass-based squishies like Sona and Lulu, and he's way too tanky (and Devour's so powerful that you basically can't initiate on his carry, if for example you're Leona) so you can't out manfight him, unless you can force his shield then disengage.
Do you just pick Annie, wait for level 6 and try to get a 2-man stun and burst the AD before he can devour it? Do you just pick something that'll let you shove super hard like Karma or Lulu (also slows so even if he hits Q you can slow him too and gtfo before he stacks his passive for a Q stun into Devour), push him under his tower, then roam or harass his AD or something?
Looks like he's going to be a huge pain in the ass with anything that has range like Jinx, Cait or Annie since you won't be able to harass them easily without exposing yourself to him.
I know I won't try my go-to support pick Braum against him so I gotta find something.
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I feel like if somebody wants to play a sandbox mode, why wouldn't they let them?
If you think it scares away new players, lock it out till level 30.
I don't get how somebody can say I want to play the game this way, and the response can be we don't think you really want that.
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yangers is dota 2 supposed to be impossible to break T3 towers or are these TI games just weird. I keep seeing teams get mad advantage and then keep dying at T3 then lose.
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On August 06 2015 07:44 Alaric wrote:If you wanna talk about something else, give me some info about Tahm Kench! I haven't played in over 2 weeks and only knew that somehow Riot thought very relevant to buff him (especially the ult's passive), so I expect to face him (and have already) but I'm not sure what can even beat him bot lane. He's ranged, so like Thresh he's got all the tools to beat harass-based squishies like Sona and Lulu, and he's way too tanky (and Devour's so powerful that you basically can't initiate on his carry, if for example you're Leona) so you can't out manfight him, unless you can force his shield then disengage. Do you just pick Annie, wait for level 6 and try to get a 2-man stun and burst the AD before he can devour it? Do you just pick something that'll let you shove super hard like Karma or Lulu (also slows so even if he hits Q you can slow him too and gtfo before he stacks his passive for a Q stun into Devour), push him under his tower, then roam or harass his AD or something? Looks like he's going to be a huge pain in the ass with anything that has range like Jinx, Cait or Annie since you won't be able to harass them easily without exposing yourself to him. I know I won't try my go-to support pick Braum against him so I gotta find something.
braum would shit on him incredibly hard.He has 200 range lol.Just pick anything honestly his laning is pretty shit.He goes oom super fast too.Just keep in mind what his abilities do before you go in like any other champ and abuse it.
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I am not sure why Riot even made a statement about sandbox. It was obviously not going to happen.
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On August 06 2015 08:18 Sufficiency wrote:
I am not sure why Riot even made a statement about sandbox. It was obviously not going to happen.
Not like it matters.They will just wait for people to forget/get tired of complaining and move on in typical riot fashion.
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On August 06 2015 08:35 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 08:18 Sufficiency wrote:
I am not sure why Riot even made a statement about sandbox. It was obviously not going to happen. Not like it matters.They will just wait for people to forget/get tired of complaining and move on in typical riot fashion.
That's not my point.
Imagine there is a rally for McDonald's to give away free Big Macs 365 days a year - because Big Macs are so darned delicious and everyone likes Big Macs. Then McDonald's will just be quiet about it instead of making some BS PR reasons - since the request to give away free Big Macs is so ridiculous that it's not worth making a statement for.
Riot making a sandbox is about equally ridiculous. Fundamentally, League of Legends is a game and you play it to have fun - singleplayer sandbox training wheel is NOT FUN. If you think sandbox training is fun, you are almost certainly too addicted to the game and you should re-evaluate your life choices. There is absolutely no reasons whatsoever that Riot should spend the resources to make something that is intrinsically not fun.
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On August 06 2015 08:44 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 08:35 nafta wrote:On August 06 2015 08:18 Sufficiency wrote:
I am not sure why Riot even made a statement about sandbox. It was obviously not going to happen. Not like it matters.They will just wait for people to forget/get tired of complaining and move on in typical riot fashion. That's not my point. Imagine there is a rally for McDonald's to give away free Big Macs 365 days a year - because Big Macs are so darned delicious and everyone likes Big Macs. Then McDonald's will just be quiet about it instead of making some BS PR reasons - since the request to give away free Big Macs is so ridiculous that it's not worth making a statement for. Riot making a sandbox is about equally ridiculous. Fundamentally, League of Legends is a game and you play it to have fun - singleplayer sandbox training wheel is NOT FUN. If you think sandbox training is fun, you are almost certainly too addicted to the game and you should re-evaluate your life choices. There is absolutely no reasons whatsoever that Riot should spend the resources to make something that is intrinsically not fun.
lol nice one like this one much more than vayneauthority's 9/10
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
On August 06 2015 08:44 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 08:35 nafta wrote:On August 06 2015 08:18 Sufficiency wrote:
I am not sure why Riot even made a statement about sandbox. It was obviously not going to happen. Not like it matters.They will just wait for people to forget/get tired of complaining and move on in typical riot fashion. That's not my point. Imagine there is a rally for McDonald's to give away free Big Macs 365 days a year - because Big Macs are so darned delicious and everyone likes Big Macs. Then McDonald's will just be quiet about it instead of making some BS PR reasons - since the request to give away free Big Macs is so ridiculous that it's not worth making a statement for. Riot making a sandbox is about equally ridiculous. Fundamentally, League of Legends is a game and you play it to have fun - singleplayer sandbox training wheel is NOT FUN. If you think sandbox training is fun, you are almost certainly too addicted to the game and you should re-evaluate your life choices. There is absolutely no reasons whatsoever that Riot should spend the resources to make something that is intrinsically not fun.
... And yet the Riot API you use to spend countless amount of hours and computing power to produce statistics for this game is somehow intrinsically fun?
mfw Sufficiency needs to re-evaluate his life.
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EPT
