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On August 06 2015 04:52 Zess wrote:Hey guys, looking for some feedback here. Based on my observations, and specific complaints from users, it seems that GD has two camps of players - those primarily concerned with discussing gameplay under the new patch, and those concerned with general discussion of League (game design, balance philosophy, the current discussion about sandbox mode) and just use the patch thread for it. We're thinking of splitting this into two threads, one each patch in the strategy section with the actual patch notes for patch / gameplay discussion, and one generic game-related GD that gets refreshed each patch just for the sake of cutting down on a giant monolithic GD thread like LiquidDota used(?) to have(has?). Poll: Thoughts?I wouldn't like that (31) 74% I would like that (8) 19% I would like that but don't think it will work (2) 5% I wouldn't like that but think it will work (1) 2% My opinion is way too nuanced to put in one of the general buckets (0) 0% 42 total votes Your vote: Thoughts? (Vote): I would like that
(Vote): I wouldn't like that
(Vote): I would like that but don't think it will work
(Vote): I wouldn't like that but think it will work
(Vote): My opinion is way too nuanced to put in one of the general buckets
So as not to derail this thread away from the current discussion about sandbox mode, please put comments in website feedback.
There already is such a topic: http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/website-feedback/477296-unnecessary-censorship-and-fracturing-of-gd
I encourage people to decide whether the admins' logic on a similar idea has panned out as they predicted.
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Sooooooooooo, they are basically saying that it is too hard/ too much work to add URF mode with infinite cash as a choice in custom games?
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United States47024 Posts
The best part about this is how only half the reason the community needs a sandbox mode is to practice. The other half is so that we can actually figure out how shit in the game works because Riot won't publish comprehensive documentation about their own game themselves.
The vast majority of data on the LoL wiki, which is the de facto source on detailed information on ability and item interactions, was gathered empirically. There's a ton more stuff that could be gleaned through intensive testing if the abilities in question didn't have such long CDs that such testing is infeasible. But all of this SHOULD be unnecessary because all of it Riot should have documented internally in their own code. Proper documentation of ability characteristics such as animation length, projectile speed, hitbox size, etc. are absolutely important data for players to have when playing the game, but Riot refuses to give that either.
The "competitive advantage" argument would be somewhat reasonable if Riot were also willing to answer the other reason we need a sandbox mode, but they haven't made good on that either.
EDIT: This is all the more baffling because of how Riot increasingly wants their game to be about micro elements such as skillshots. The more your game is centered around these aspects, the more important it is for your players to have accurate, specific, quantified data about their properties like how many frames a cast animation is, how wide the hitbox of the projectile is, how wide your champion's hitbox is, etc.
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Its Spaghetti code
Spaghetti code is always the answer. I pretty much assure you that league cannot deal with a sandbox mode, or other things like replays
Remember, Hexakill only ever existed because of the lack of spectator ability in early league
Also i should totally have a bunnygirl riven icon on this forum
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the technology for replays exists, Riot just doesn't want to commit to the server expansion to handle the load, it isn't really code related.
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On August 06 2015 05:19 Slusher wrote:
the technology for replays exists, Riot just doesn't want to commit to the server expansion to handle the load, it isn't really code related.
It is code related, its not just server expansion, its not backwards compatible still.
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Pretty sure the technology for custom games is already in league. They just need to add in options and cheat commands to it.
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On August 06 2015 04:53 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 04:00 VayneAuthority wrote:
im not playing devils advocate here. i would never use a sandbox mode in a multiplayer game. i like that they wont let nerds spend hours in it to get a leg up for no reason other then them having time to waste.
as i said its there convoluted explanation thats funny Grinding games isn't any different in that regard. It doesn't matter what tools you give or don't give the nerds, the nerds will be better than you because they will spend more time on the game. If they do some of the most annoying parts of that by themselves in a custom game, who cares? The end result is exactly the same. It's not like training mode can possibly replace actually playing the game or help people do crazy technical combos no one else can because League doesn't have crazy technical combos (compared to the fighting games Riot is using to justify their opinion). Even if you don't have a training mode there's a lot of places where "nerds" can and do grind mechanics. Nidalee jumps, fizz pole tricks, azir q->e tricks, ward placement, last hitting, and learning to jungle are just a few I can name off the top of my head (I've heard mention of people going into custom games to practice each of them and done most of these myself). So what exactly is the harm in adding high cooldown abilities to this list?
"hey weed isnt that bad, let me try heroine now" i don't condone anything that gives people the tools to exploit the game further just because they play more. it would just lead to people dedicated to finding bugs and glitches in the game to gain an advantage and now having a better tool that takes less time to do so. I dont see the benefits outweighing the time they would have to put in this and the downsides.
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On August 06 2015 05:20 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 04:53 phyvo wrote:On August 06 2015 04:00 VayneAuthority wrote:
im not playing devils advocate here. i would never use a sandbox mode in a multiplayer game. i like that they wont let nerds spend hours in it to get a leg up for no reason other then them having time to waste.
as i said its there convoluted explanation thats funny Grinding games isn't any different in that regard. It doesn't matter what tools you give or don't give the nerds, the nerds will be better than you because they will spend more time on the game. If they do some of the most annoying parts of that by themselves in a custom game, who cares? The end result is exactly the same. It's not like training mode can possibly replace actually playing the game or help people do crazy technical combos no one else can because League doesn't have crazy technical combos (compared to the fighting games Riot is using to justify their opinion). Even if you don't have a training mode there's a lot of places where "nerds" can and do grind mechanics. Nidalee jumps, fizz pole tricks, azir q->e tricks, ward placement, last hitting, and learning to jungle are just a few I can name off the top of my head (I've heard mention of people going into custom games to practice each of them and done most of these myself). So what exactly is the harm in adding high cooldown abilities to this list? "hey weed isnt that bad, let me try heroine now" i don't condone anything that gives people the tools to exploit the game further just because they play more. it would just lead to people dedicated to finding bugs and glitches in the game to gain an advantage and now having a better tool that takes less time to do so. I dont see the benefits outweighing the time they would have to put in this and the downsides.
come on man you can do a better bait than that 4/10
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On August 06 2015 05:19 Shaella wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 05:19 Slusher wrote:
the technology for replays exists, Riot just doesn't want to commit to the server expansion to handle the load, it isn't really code related. It is code related, its not just server expansion, its not backwards compatible still.
dude it was on the ptr at one point I don't know what else needs to be said
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Fairly sure Riot doesnt want to release proprietary information by making a sandbox. I just get the feeling that they're very, very afraid of their only product getting copied into oblivion, especially in China where
1. There is massive demand for knockoffs of everything based on sheer numbers alone.
2. Its impossible to hold people accountable.
I could see why they wouldnt release a sandbox mode under those circumstances either. Now that being said, DOTA has one so its not the strongest of excuses at all, though who knows how they get their shit to stay secret and I for one think their entire line of logic is BS if they want this game to be competitive.
Ive almost entirely given up playing league because the time sink is ludicrous if you do have a life and any other demanding hobbies. So for them to tell me that I have to play 40 minute games to improve at all at minute tasks ingame is some truly dissapointing bullshit. Basically what they're saying is "if you want to be any good at this game dedicate to it with very little reservations, or only play one champion."
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Even the Kpop bait was better done than that.
Update on my league, Vlad suggestion has been pretty sweet so far. Still haven't picked Blitz, just using Janna which seems ok. Is Karma support decent?
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On August 06 2015 05:21 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 05:19 Shaella wrote:On August 06 2015 05:19 Slusher wrote:
the technology for replays exists, Riot just doesn't want to commit to the server expansion to handle the load, it isn't really code related. It is code related, its not just server expansion, its not backwards compatible still. dude it was on the ptr at one point I don't know what else needs to be said
and it never worked right on the pbe
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United States47024 Posts
Again, these arguments would be more valid if Riot weren't also still holding out on giving out proper documentation of all abilities/items in the game, which is a large part of what people want sandbox mode to test.
If Riot doesn't want people to test how things work to exhaustion, that's fine. Then just TELL US HOW THEY WORK rather than forcing people to jump through hoops to find out.
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If they had a functioning replay system I would have thought they would have been using it for tournament games with resume from replay for when the fuckups happen.
I guess it's possible they didn't add resume to the replay system but this is something they really should have.
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United States37500 Posts
Quite the PR statement in regards to Sandbox Mode.
FWIW, Riot did have a test realm (Doran's Workshop) where it had some sandbox elements. They had free potions at base that would give two different allotment of gold (to buy items without having to CS), free level up, and summoner skill reset. It wasn't the cleanest implementation of a sandbox mode but it was obviously something play testers could use while they tested champion remakes.
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On August 06 2015 05:22 Purge wrote:
Fairly sure Riot doesnt want to release proprietary information by making a sandbox. I just get the feeling that they're very, very afraid of their only product getting copied into oblivion, especially in China where
1. There is massive demand for knockoffs of everything based on sheer numbers alone.
2. Its impossible to hold people accountable.
I could see why they wouldnt release a sandbox mode under those circumstances either. Now that being said, DOTA has one so its not the strongest of excuses at all, though who knows how they get their shit to stay secret and I for one think their entire line of logic is BS if they want this game to be competitive.
Ive almost entirely given up playing league because the time sink is ludicrous if you do have a life and any other demanding hobbies. So for them to tell me that I have to play 40 minute games to improve at all at minute tasks ingame is some truly dissapointing bullshit. Basically what they're saying is "if you want to be any good at this game dedicate to it with very little reservations, or only play one champion."
"Rats, foiled again! If only you'd release a sandbox mode, I could copy your game and take over the world!"
-Nobody, 2015
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they just know that if they release sandbox mode, it's going to mess shit up, either on it's own cause lol game code or because someone will make it leak into the regular mode. remember the infinite flash/smite hack, the fantom 6th player, 6v6 TT, ect... Releasing a new champion and changing some damage values around can already have major random bugs in a completely weird other part of the map, they know the kind of shit that sandbox mode would potentially bring
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On August 06 2015 05:26 NeoIllusions wrote:
Quite the PR statement in regards to Sandbox Mode.
FWIW, Riot did have a test realm (Doran's Workshop) where it had some sandbox elements. They had free potions at base that would give two different allotment of gold (to buy items without having to CS), free level up, and summoner skill reset. It wasn't the cleanest implementation of a sandbox mode but it was obviously something play testers could use while they tested champion remakes.
Add /resetcooldowns and /blacksheepwall and its ready.
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On August 06 2015 05:26 NeoIllusions wrote:
Quite the PR statement in regards to Sandbox Mode.
FWIW, Riot did have a test realm (Doran's Workshop) where it had some sandbox elements. They had free potions at base that would give two different allotment of gold (to buy items without having to CS), free level up, and summoner skill reset. It wasn't the cleanest implementation of a sandbox mode but it was obviously something play testers could use while they tested champion remakes.
That would be pretty cool. It still wouldn't be dota level since there's almost no chance we can control enemy champions to test out say 2 builds. But it'd be a step forwards.
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EPT
