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Supports take a different skillset/mindset than ADC's. That said I don't think supports are any less demanding to play in lane. It's the support who makes space in lane for the ADC to farm, not the other way around. Yes you can 1v2 some lanes with caitlyn. You can 2v2 far more effectively.
Supports can play aggressively because they burst harder than ADC's early on. They are also more dangerous than ADC's in lane at early levels(look at how many adc's outburst/harass sona at level 1 for example) This, combined with the fact that most supports start with multiple pots, lets them trade carry HP for pots without issue.
Especially entering the midgame, while the supports life is worth less than a carry's because they don't use the time to farm, losing a support cedes a very large amount of map control and pressure against good teams.
Dblade is used because it gives "enough" sustain that if you make good trades and position well, it's difficult to get pushed out of lane early on, and it's also "enough" lifesteal that you don't need to buy another lifesteal item until later on(champ dependant). You also pretty much autowin against any non-dblade opening that isn't red pot(which is a massive, massive gamble, especially in a duo lane.
Also ADC are very slot independant until lategame. Even going for an IE build>PD build with 2 dorans& boots, you can have BF+X+pots/wards/X into IE, and then zeal+crit cloak. It's not until you buy 3 dblades that slots even become an issue. The cost efficiency of dblade far outweighs the cost of that slot.
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On October 25 2013 12:41 Requizen wrote:
Is there a concensus on whom the soft counter to Jinx is yet? She just seems kinda good against everyone.
In my experience with playing as and vs. Jinx, any champion with a good poke and some maneuverability fair well vs. her. So that means Caitlyn, Ezreal, and Corki post-6. I sort of add Varus in there too because, while he has like no maneuverability outside of using his ult to stop her in her tracks, his Q poke will let him harass her a TON.
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Riot needs random tournaments. Aram vs Aram style. Or where the enemy player can pick your champion.
On October 25 2013 15:04 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 14:59 Brad` wrote:On October 25 2013 14:56 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Speaking of starting with consumables... why do people start dorans instead of sword + hp pots? It doesnt build into anything so it is kind of like wasting gold, isnt it? Because if you start consumables you're just going to get bullied out of lane by the guy with dorans. And I imagine if you polled pro players they'd tell you that adc is the easiest role to play. I'd have to agree. How can you get bullied out though? How does dorans stop that? Is it because of the slight health change? Isn't it possible to make up for that with an aggressive wave clear for an earlier back + buy? I mean if you start long sword you are basically up a first blood in gold, no?
People get dorans items in the first place because they think on average that its efficiency over long swords and other items will let them win lanes and that it is worth the loss of gold for when you have to sell them.
For the record, I don't start dorans blade in bottom lane.
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On October 25 2013 15:04 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 14:59 Brad` wrote:On October 25 2013 14:56 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Speaking of starting with consumables... why do people start dorans instead of sword + hp pots? It doesnt build into anything so it is kind of like wasting gold, isnt it? Because if you start consumables you're just going to get bullied out of lane by the guy with dorans. And I imagine if you polled pro players they'd tell you that adc is the easiest role to play. I'd have to agree. How can you get bullied out though? How does dorans stop that? Is it because of the slight health change? Isn't it possible to make up for that with an aggressive wave clear for an earlier back + buy? I mean if you start long sword you are basically up a first blood in gold, no?
And if they match your aggressive wave clear? Then you're down long term sustain with only 2 pots. With a dorans, you're netting at least 30 hp per wave which won't take long to overtake your pots. I'm assuming your first back you'd aim to get a vamp scepter but that will be too many waves in and you won't have a good back timing unless you're winning lane hard already due to the matchup. It could work in the right matchups where the other side has 0 wave clear and you can push to their tower for the first 3-5 waves, which in that case it doesn't matter too much what you start.
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On October 25 2013 14:40 Requizen wrote:
Out of curiosity, is AA staff a normal buy on Xerath? I've been doing Chalice/Grail to remain spammy, don't know what other people do.
Not really, if you get fed blue you could do it, but Grail is more reliable and gives him the CDR to always have ult which is what makes him scary, plus it doesn't delay his power. I always go grail, because I can't count on blue.
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On October 25 2013 15:39 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 14:40 Requizen wrote:
Out of curiosity, is AA staff a normal buy on Xerath? I've been doing Chalice/Grail to remain spammy, don't know what other people do. Not really, if you get fed blue you could do it, but Grail is more reliable and gives him the CDR to always have ult which is what makes him scary, plus it doesn't delay his power. I always go grail, because I can't count on blue.
Grail also has the added bonus of early MR.
On October 25 2013 14:59 Brad` wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 14:56 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Speaking of starting with consumables... why do people start dorans instead of sword + hp pots? It doesnt build into anything so it is kind of like wasting gold, isnt it? Because if you start consumables you're just going to get bullied out of lane by the guy with dorans. And I imagine if you polled pro players they'd tell you that adc is the easiest role to play. I'd have to agree.
Why do so many people suck at it though?
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On October 25 2013 15:51 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 15:39 sob3k wrote:On October 25 2013 14:40 Requizen wrote:
Out of curiosity, is AA staff a normal buy on Xerath? I've been doing Chalice/Grail to remain spammy, don't know what other people do. Not really, if you get fed blue you could do it, but Grail is more reliable and gives him the CDR to always have ult which is what makes him scary, plus it doesn't delay his power. I always go grail, because I can't count on blue. Grail also has the added bonus of early MR. Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 14:59 Brad` wrote:On October 25 2013 14:56 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Speaking of starting with consumables... why do people start dorans instead of sword + hp pots? It doesnt build into anything so it is kind of like wasting gold, isnt it? Because if you start consumables you're just going to get bullied out of lane by the guy with dorans. And I imagine if you polled pro players they'd tell you that adc is the easiest role to play. I'd have to agree. Why do so many people suck at it though?
Why do so many people suck at every role
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On October 25 2013 14:40 Requizen wrote:
Out of curiosity, is AA staff a normal buy on Xerath? I've been doing Chalice/Grail to remain spammy, don't know what other people do.
I think Chalice to Grail is very smart. You get a lot of things Xerath needs. You'll have your AP, CDR, MR and Mgen all in one item. Also since AP gives you a bit of armor you have that covered too.
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On October 25 2013 15:04 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 14:59 Brad` wrote:On October 25 2013 14:56 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Speaking of starting with consumables... why do people start dorans instead of sword + hp pots? It doesnt build into anything so it is kind of like wasting gold, isnt it? Because if you start consumables you're just going to get bullied out of lane by the guy with dorans. And I imagine if you polled pro players they'd tell you that adc is the easiest role to play. I'd have to agree. How can you get bullied out though? How does dorans stop that? Is it because of the slight health change? Isn't it possible to make up for that with an aggressive wave clear for an earlier back + buy? I mean if you start long sword you are basically up a first blood in gold, no?
With ~450 life at level 1 you are gaining over 1% of your hp back per shot in addition to starting with an extra 80, which is between 1/5 and 1/6 more hp. Couple this with lifesteal from runes and the fact that pots are significantly weaker in a burst situation than they are in a "i'm too low and need to recover hp" situation and you easily make a case as to why dorans is so much stronger than longsword pots.
[edit] Also, being "basically up a first blood" because you bought a longsword and then giving first blood to the guy who bought dorans is quite realistic against good players. [/edit]
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I don't think Long Sword beats Dorans sustain by much if any during the first laning session before people go back for the first time. I'd much prefer a flask, or hell even the combat statless boots if you can use them.
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So if ADC's start Dorans, what stops top laners and mid laners from starting Doran's all the time?
Is it because you don't have a support with you in lane to ward so its far riskier not to start with some wards? Or is it also that the Doran's does not always go hand in hand with the runes that mid/top laners may be running?
Because it sounds like that Dorans should give you a significant edge in whatever lane you'er going into. And I know mid/top laners don't always start Dorans, but I guess what I'm asking what would motivate someone to start something other than Doran's instead?
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Doran first is good on ranged because then you can auto back health. Can also be a good pick for a champ with high lvl 1 allin potential.
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On October 25 2013 16:52 Frudgey wrote:
Is it because you don't have a support with you in lane to ward so its far riskier not to start with some wards?
Yes
Or because they're not ranged champions who can attack multiple times without getting hit it doesn't make sense to do so
Case in point, many if not most AP mid laners start dorans ring nowadays
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D blade still gives relevant stats throughout the entire game until you sell it. It will never be as good again as it is at level one but it's still cost effective and everything it gives you is helpful.
What you gain from buying a longsword is being 400g closer to your 1st major item than the opposing adc. So depending on when you both buy maybe there will be a window when you have BT and the other adc has bf sword+vamp scepter+d blade and you could potentially take advantage of that. Of course it could also work out so that you have BT+400g banked and the other adc has BT+D blade.
This is assuming that an adc with a longsword and 2 pots will gain gold at the same rate as an adc with a d blade. It's more likely that the D blade adc will gain gold faster because they will be stronger than the other adc in the early game.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 25 2013 16:44 obesechicken13 wrote:
I don't think Long Sword beats Dorans sustain by much if any during the first laning session before people go back for the first time. I'd much prefer a flask, or hell even the combat statless boots if you can use them.
It doesn't. Doran's comes out ahead in 44 autoattacks. If you ONLY ever lasthit, that would be 7 waves. If you're autoing creeps twice before they die on average, that's less than 4 waves.
You rarely plan around backing that early.
On October 25 2013 16:56 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Or because they're not ranged champions who can attack multiple times without getting hit it doesn't make sense to do so
This. It's a lot easier for ranged heroes to find opportunities to hit creeps for HP than melees
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On October 25 2013 12:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 12:41 Requizen wrote:
Is there a concensus on whom the soft counter to Jinx is yet? She just seems kinda good against everyone.
Also Kiss in his Plat promo series, gdlk WHO DO NOT USE WHOM IF YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO USE WHOM
What would be the correct wording if one wanted to use "whom" here? "Is there a consensus on whom Jinx loses to?" or something in that vein?
(I'm not answering the dblade thing but about everything has been stated anyway.)
Also if you think you may be able to stay farming a bunch, you'd rather get BFS first back. Technically short sword doesn't help or offset this but you won't have sustain unless you buy pots (or have runes but the dblade guy can too) which will cost you more. And champs starting IE won't need a short sword till much later (that's the reason you use lifesteal quints: to remove the need for a vamp and thus get your IE+AS item 800 gold faster).
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United States47024 Posts
Unsurprisingly the French and Chinese guys understand subject/object grammar better than the American.
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Get a friend studying to be an English teacher talk to you about perlocutionary act and stuff like that randomly while you're trashalking each other and it'll help.
Or maybe it's the fact that I wiki'd it and found the speech acts theory fascinating, and I should feel weird about it. >.>
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EPT
