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On September 10 2013 15:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2013 15:32 obesechicken13 wrote:
Hey, my team said something today. The enemy team was doing Baron and there were 4 of us ready to stop them but the 5th was lagging behind. So I wanted to engage, but my team said that the Baron debuff for +25-250% damage only applied to damage dealt by baron. That this was a change Riot made. Is this true that the damage is only amplified from Baron? Because I totally feel like 3.5x free damage means we can 4v5 members in the pit while wrath of the ancients is running. The increased damage taken debuff still applies to all damage. The change was turning the -50% AD debuff into -50% damage dealt to Baron. Show nested quote +On September 10 2013 15:31 MattBarry wrote:
Because if he watched Koreans play he'd understand why no one thinks NA has a shot in hell of beating a Korean team, well one of the big 6 Korean teams. I actually think top NA teams could compete with CTU/Xenics.
By "top NA teams" you mean C9. The dropoff from C9 to Vulcun/TSM is enormous, and while C9 definitely could perform well against mid-tier Korean teams, Vulcun/TSM are assuredly a level below them.
The pathetic thing is hearing about how C9 was losing to TSM in scrims against Vlad. Balls is actually not a good player or laner. I think we'll see something similar to season 2 worlds where there was a huge gap between asian top laners and western top laners.
NA mids are also heavily behind their international counterparts.
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On September 10 2013 15:33 TheYango wrote:
Really, an NA team taking a series off a Korean team will actually accomplish nothing.
Normally, it's actually quite hard to compare skill level in completely disparate regions with no cross-region competition because how good you look is in large part a product of your competition. But in the case of comparing OGN play to NA LCS the difference in level of play is extremely apparent in spite of that, even to relatively inexperienced observers. Even if every Korean team dropped out of Worlds early, you'd be hard pressed to convince me that the level of play in Korea isn't vastly higher, because one event doesn't outweigh an entire season of derpy play in NA LCS.
That's where we differ. NA stands 0 chance of taking a series* off taking a KR team, no matter what cheese they have prepared, and how unprepared the KRs might be. If they did take a series, I be hella impressed, and would be willing to eat humble pie and admit skill differences are not as huge as I predicted.
*series, not single matches where the KRs are trolling cos they qualified.
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On September 10 2013 15:39 Arisen wrote:
Can anyone link to me a really good FP Vod of a pro top laner playing out an entire game with a standard AD bruiser type top; preferably one without a big insta-waveclear (I play jax the most, I suppose; one with commentary would be nice).
What I'm looking for specifically is farming patterns. There's a point in the game about after I get one big item (BotRK or Triforce in this case) and boots, that I really stop putting a priority on farm. I'll end the game with only like 150 Farm because at some point the lane became all about either
A) Killing the other guy and roaming
or
B) Teamfighting somewhere else
I notice that I give my opponent too much room to come back into the game because I don't know when to farm/push and when to go fight. It's a hard spot because I know I want to push my team to get objectives (and in solo q especially, if there isn't someone there herding your team to where you need to go, they might just start dying when someone else does that on the other team), to win in teamfights, etc, BUT if the other guy just sits top and gets 40-50 CS for free and I missed out on it to go get our team some kills, that other guy will catch up a decent amount of the gold I just gained and push our tower.
I used to play a ton of singed (and I still do when I really need a win), but with him it's easy. I'm always farming everywhere I go, and it only took me 4 seconds to farm a lane, push it up and bounce to somewhere where I was needed (while killing jungle creeps and the other lane's creeps on the way) so I ended up staying way ahead of the other laner because I could essentailly do both at the same time.
Hoping to get some insight into this. Thanks
Voyboy's stream is probably one of the best learning tools for Top Laners.
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United States47024 Posts
I'm not sure why you're quoting me saying "that's where we differ", because nowhere in that post do I say anywhere that I think Korean teams will lose to NA teams.
I'm saying that even if Korean teams go to worlds and all 3 of them throw their series to NA teams for shits and giggles, it would still be totally meaningless with regard to relative region strength because the level of play being lower in NA has been readily apparent for an entire season. A single event wouldn't change my mind about that, and it shouldn't change anyone's. That's how obvious the relatively weak play in NA LCS should be to anyone who has watched both regions' play and has even a cursory understanding of this game.
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I am saying its impossible they lose. I am saying the level of play is THAT much lower. You are discussing a hypothetical that won't occur in any of our parallel universes to me.
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United States47024 Posts
You're basically saying that even if Sword flies over, all 5 players get food poisoning from American food, and end up playing their series vs. TSM/Vulcun totally feverish and delusional and having been unable to play a single game in the days leading up to their games, they would still beat them?
That's an even harsher assessment than I would have been willing to give.
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Touche. Yea, but probably not vs C9. I think c9 is the one hope in NA, who is not just 1 level above TSM/Vulcun, but 2 if they got cheese comps in mind.
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C9 can win if they got a good level 1 fight, it doesnt matter how matter how strong the opponent team is if u team get 3 kills from lvl1 fight and they blow 3-4 flash it's basically gg. U can zone enemy with item/exp advantage and they have no flash and if they are greedy they are dead. No one have coming back from level 1 heavy snowball. (elite teams vs elite teams not vs scrub teams like curse for example).
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Sadly that happens to C9 more often than the other way around. See vulcan where they facechecked into a bush after showing that they were passing through mid. The koreans level 1 is ridiculously polished and something the general fanbase overlooks.
I believe hai mentioned something a whiles back about how they were having issues with level 1s in their scrims. This was around week 4 or so so perhaps they've had time to change things and study.
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On September 10 2013 15:54 cascades wrote:
Touche. Yea, but probably not vs C9. I think c9 is the one hope in NA, who is not just 1 level above TSM/Vulcun, but 2 if they got cheese comps in mind.
So literally all that you said about NA teams not being able to take a single match of Koreans is actually false because you hadn't considered C9?
The NA hatred is as boggling as the thought process that has people predicting TSM to go anywhere after group stages (which they'd have to hope LD choke really hard to have a chance to get out of).
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I just read this and the concept is good, but it's gonna depend a lot on the execution and degree.
Giving supports more gold to work with items? Good. But be careful about how this causes the champion pool to shift. I'm still hoping that supports remain supports and not just a second AP carry.
Junglers given more gold... Now, junglers aren't quite as poor as supports, and sometimes they can get REALLY fed. In pro games only meteos typically gets on the level of solo laners, but I think giving them nearly the same amount of gold would be wrong without a ton of kills to back it up. Why do I feel this way? Because jungle farming is safe and easy 95% of the time. It's essentially free farm. Scaling junglers could be a huge issue and a drastic change to the meta. Why have a carry in lane when you can farm safely in the jungle? Add to this the massive gold you could potentially get from a few successful ganks and you've got the biggest snowball in the game.
There's no issue giving a jungler more farm to work with, but this should be a careful change. If the improvements lie innately within the jungler then getting lane farm + that gold + kills will put you far ahead.
Then the vision change. I'm thinking perhaps a limit on wards per player could be an interesting change. Also add to that an extra slot for wards that doesn't take up your 6 slots. I hope it's not similar to dota's changes where icefrog believes less vision = better.
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On September 10 2013 16:18 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2013 15:54 cascades wrote:
Touche. Yea, but probably not vs C9. I think c9 is the one hope in NA, who is not just 1 level above TSM/Vulcun, but 2 if they got cheese comps in mind. So literally all that you said about NA teams not being able to take a single match of Koreans is actually false because you hadn't considered C9? The NA hatred is as boggling as the thought process that has people predicting TSM to go anywhere after group stages (which they'd have to hope LD choke really hard to have a chance to get out of).
Reading comprehension pls. They are not going to unless all the KRs are majorly fucked up and dying, and by that i don't mean jet lag. And NA hatred? That's a compliment to c9 in my book.
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On September 10 2013 16:21 Itsmedudeman wrote:I just read this and the concept is good, but it's gonna depend a lot on the execution and degree. Giving supports more gold to work with items? Good. But be careful about how this causes the champion pool to shift. I'm still hoping that supports remain supports and not just a second AP carry. Junglers given more gold... Now, junglers aren't quite as poor as supports, and sometimes they can get REALLY fed. In pro games only meteos typically gets on the level of solo laners, but I think giving them nearly the same amount of gold would be wrong without a ton of kills to back it up. Why do I feel this way? Because jungle farming is safe and easy 95% of the time. It's essentially free farm. Scaling junglers could be a huge issue and a drastic change to the meta. Why have a carry in lane when you can farm safely in the jungle? Add to this the massive gold you could potentially get from a few successful ganks and you've got the biggest snowball in the game. There's no issue giving a jungler more farm to work with, but this should be a careful change. If the improvements lie innately within the jungler then getting lane farm + that gold + kills will put you far ahead.
You can pretty much trust Riot to make smaller changes with gold gain rather than bigger, as they've done in the past with jungle reworks and slight gold generation buffs. They tend to be cautious about it and do small changes and see in 2-3-4-5-6 months where the game is from there. The effects on the game besides knee-jerk reactions are REALLY felt for at least a month+ from such changes.
On September 10 2013 16:23 cascades wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2013 16:18 Zdrastochye wrote:On September 10 2013 15:54 cascades wrote:
Touche. Yea, but probably not vs C9. I think c9 is the one hope in NA, who is not just 1 level above TSM/Vulcun, but 2 if they got cheese comps in mind. So literally all that you said about NA teams not being able to take a single match of Koreans is actually false because you hadn't considered C9? The NA hatred is as boggling as the thought process that has people predicting TSM to go anywhere after group stages (which they'd have to hope LD choke really hard to have a chance to get out of). Reading comprehension pls. They are not going to unless all the KRs are majorly fucked up and dying, and by that i don't mean jet lag. And NA hatred? That's a compliment to c9 in my book.
Predicting 0-2 from C9 is a compliment? I guess I do need reading comprehension.
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On September 10 2013 15:44 TheYango wrote:
I'm not sure why you're quoting me saying "that's where we differ", because nowhere in that post do I say anywhere that I think Korean teams will lose to NA teams.
I'm saying that even if Korean teams go to worlds and all 3 of them throw their series to NA teams for shits and giggles, it would still be totally meaningless with regard to relative region strength because the level of play being lower in NA has been readily apparent for an entire season. A single event wouldn't change my mind about that, and it shouldn't change anyone's. That's how obvious the relatively weak play in NA LCS should be to anyone who has watched both regions' play and has even a cursory understanding of this game.
I had a large post typed that got deleted, but the gist is this: I agree that I THINK KR is the best region, but I also dont agree that if they do poorly at worlds that they still are not dethroned. THe fact is that IMO only KTB and SKT seem to do things overall better than the rest of the world (like making good baron calls, which everyone fails at).
Watching KR lately, I perceive the KR advantage to be in laning phase. However, there is no real proof of this because of no internationals. Thus, if that is not true, KR actually may suck, because teams like Blaze are basically throwers-extraordinaire (or you could call them Flame+Bronze 5 after laning if you want), or teams like Frost and Najin Sword/Shield fail in picks or picking bad engagements just as hard as NA teams.
So I think Korea has a lot to prove at worlds, I expect them to do it, but I think the rep is definitely on the line.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
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United States47024 Posts
KR in general has a larger number of teams that consistently draft coherent and sensible team compositions, and in general their technical play tends to be cleaner on the whole than at least NA (other regions could be debatable, and in particular I don't watch enough EU LCS to make that particular comparison). I don't know what you're watching where you believe laning phase is KR's only advantage.
On September 10 2013 16:21 Itsmedudeman wrote:I just read this and the concept is good, but it's gonna depend a lot on the execution and degree. Giving supports more gold to work with items? Good. But be careful about how this causes the champion pool to shift. I'm still hoping that supports remain supports and not just a second AP carry. Junglers given more gold... Now, junglers aren't quite as poor as supports, and sometimes they can get REALLY fed. In pro games only meteos typically gets on the level of solo laners, but I think giving them nearly the same amount of gold would be wrong without a ton of kills to back it up. Why do I feel this way? Because jungle farming is safe and easy 95% of the time. It's essentially free farm. Scaling junglers could be a huge issue and a drastic change to the meta. Why have a carry in lane when you can farm safely in the jungle? Add to this the massive gold you could potentially get from a few successful ganks and you've got the biggest snowball in the game. There's no issue giving a jungler more farm to work with, but this should be a careful change. If the improvements lie innately within the jungler then getting lane farm + that gold + kills will put you far ahead. Then the vision change. I'm thinking perhaps a limit on wards per player could be an interesting change. Also add to that an extra slot for wards that doesn't take up your 6 slots. I hope it's not similar to dota's changes where icefrog believes less vision = better.
If Riot still thinks the way to improve the income of the jungler is to increase the gold in the jungle, then I have no clue what to say.
For two straight seasons I have said that the way to improve jungle and support gold is to provide incentives to have the lowest gold priority heroes on the team have items. Farm allocation is generally fluid, and post-lane phase farm typically has more farmers than there are places to farm, so really who ends up farmed is a matter of who is most incentivized to have farm.
If anything, Riot has exacerbated this problem by REDUCING the number of jungle/support item options that are compelling enough to sacrifice core hero farm for, because they've incorrectly deemed the ubiquity of those items as being indicative of those items being too strong, rather than being indicative of a lack of other options. The gutting of Shurelya's at the end of S2, and the recent nerf to Aegis/Locket are examples of this.
In fairness, their *approach* to support itemization at the beginning of S3 attempting to design a multitude of support items was correct--it's just that the actual design on most of these items (Shard, Ohmwrecker, Crucible, Twin Shadows) was actually terrible or flawed, so as to make the majority of them completely unconvincing to actually buy for a support or jungler.
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There are still a lot of things NA has to learn from KR. Warding, map control, and knowing how to close out games. Watch some korean teams and how they extend their map advantage/gold advantage after the 20 minute mark and compare to what you see in NA. I think this is a point that the entire world is behind in. Too many times we see terrible baron calls and really poorly executed split pushes.
It's funny because people like to say C9 play like Koreans but I believe they're one of the only teams that aren't Korean-esque. Rotations and objective control isn't Korean at this point, but they have their own style of going about taking dragons and pushing towers. They have Hai and Balls roam incredibly often, and they highly prefer hard engage compositions and 5v5 tower pushing over split pushing/pick compositions we see come out from korea.
Also, that other thread is just mindlessly throwing out scores. No real discussion about it.
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I know I used to go into my support games with the mindset "I have to try and get my aegis before teamfights start". Had nothing to do with the amount of gold available and everything to do with the team desperately needed an Aegis. Nowadays it's all Oracles because there's no timings I need to hit. I can afford to delay a major item like 5-10 mins and it doesn't really matter.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 10 2013 16:56 TheYango wrote:KR in general has a larger number of teams that consistently draft coherent and sensible team compositions, and in general their technical play tends to be cleaner on the whole than at least NA (other regions could be debatable, and in particular I don't watch enough EU LCS to make that particular comparison). I don't know what you're watching where you believe laning phase is KR's only advantage. Show nested quote +On September 10 2013 16:21 Itsmedudeman wrote:I just read this and the concept is good, but it's gonna depend a lot on the execution and degree. Giving supports more gold to work with items? Good. But be careful about how this causes the champion pool to shift. I'm still hoping that supports remain supports and not just a second AP carry. Junglers given more gold... Now, junglers aren't quite as poor as supports, and sometimes they can get REALLY fed. In pro games only meteos typically gets on the level of solo laners, but I think giving them nearly the same amount of gold would be wrong without a ton of kills to back it up. Why do I feel this way? Because jungle farming is safe and easy 95% of the time. It's essentially free farm. Scaling junglers could be a huge issue and a drastic change to the meta. Why have a carry in lane when you can farm safely in the jungle? Add to this the massive gold you could potentially get from a few successful ganks and you've got the biggest snowball in the game. There's no issue giving a jungler more farm to work with, but this should be a careful change. If the improvements lie innately within the jungler then getting lane farm + that gold + kills will put you far ahead. Then the vision change. I'm thinking perhaps a limit on wards per player could be an interesting change. Also add to that an extra slot for wards that doesn't take up your 6 slots. I hope it's not similar to dota's changes where icefrog believes less vision = better. If Riot still thinks the way to improve the income of the jungler is to increase the gold in the jungle, then I have no clue what to say. For two straight seasons I have said that the way to improve jungle and support gold is to provide incentives to have the lowest gold priority heroes on the team have items. Farm allocation is generally fluid, and post-lane phase farm typically has more farmers than there are places to farm, so really who ends up farmed is a matter of who is most incentivized to have farm. If anything, Riot has exacerbated this problem by REDUCING the number of jungle/support item options that are compelling enough to sacrifice core hero farm for, because they've incorrectly deemed the ubiquity of those items as being indicative of those items being too strong, rather than being indicative of a lack of other options. The gutting of Shurelya's at the end of S2, and the recent nerf to Aegis/Locket are examples of this. In fairness, their *approach* to support itemization at the beginning of S3 attempting to design a multitude of support items was correct--it's just that the actual design on most of these items (Shard, Ohmwrecker, Crucible, Twin Shadows) was actually terrible or flawed, so as to make the majority of them completely unconvincing to actually buy for a support or jungler.
Right, there's a flaw in that jungle/support itemization in support/jungle items that happen to be (aura) or (support) type items in that they don't compound the same way as others do. The difference between having something like bulwark with a shurelias is minimal. Compare that to the gain of an ADC getting crit on top of an IE or an AP carry scaling their burst for more damage potential or hell, a survivability item on the team's biggest threat. If a support gets tanky it's not a big deal as their contribution in damage is negligible and won't be able to finish the fight unless other damage sources stay alive.
The support items need to be MUCH more impactful to offset this difference and warrant the farm allocation to be different.
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