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[Patch 3.10: Yimake Patch] General Discussion - Page 243

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No more bad posting
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
August 14 2013 00:27 GMT
#4841
also yorick is freelo the unsung hero of the defense of legends
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
mr_tolkien
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France8631 Posts
August 14 2013 00:28 GMT
#4842
On August 14 2013 08:59 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2013 08:54 Ghost-z wrote:
I've got some IP saved up, who is the most OP of the 6300 IP champs?

Tide caller is secret op. Shes a support that can be used as a kill lane support a poky sustain aupport or a brusier support.

And if you miss one Q in lane you just lost lane.

Seriously there's a reason why Nami has a pretty bad winrate for a support (supports usually have very good win rates in SoloQ). One missed Q and that's bye bye, free all-in from the other team.
The legend of Darien lives on
bmn
Profile Joined August 2010
886 Posts
August 14 2013 00:34 GMT
#4843
How can supports have a good win rate overall?

At least diamond and above I'd expect fewer people to pick non-support champs simply because they refuse to support (i.e. troll their team by picking something horrible just because -- not just picking a kill lane)
Amethyst21
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada7032 Posts
August 14 2013 00:36 GMT
#4844
On August 14 2013 09:34 bmn wrote:
How can supports have a good win rate overall?

At least diamond and above I'd expect fewer people to pick non-support champs simply because they refuse to support (i.e. troll their team by picking something horrible just because -- not just picking a kill lane)


Good supports win games. They win lanes. They get map control. They use their champions correctly. They itemize correctly.

I've turned around games in Silver elo just by buying an oralces when the opposing support didn't. Their team walked into a 5 man Sona ult and promptly lost the game. Support influence is often subtle but very effective.
/On the C9 Hype Train/@DatFirefly
thenexusp
Profile Joined May 2009
United States3721 Posts
August 14 2013 00:38 GMT
#4845
On August 14 2013 09:36 Amethyst21 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2013 09:34 bmn wrote:
How can supports have a good win rate overall?

At least diamond and above I'd expect fewer people to pick non-support champs simply because they refuse to support (i.e. troll their team by picking something horrible just because -- not just picking a kill lane)


Good supports win games. They win lanes. They get map control. They use their champions correctly. They itemize correctly.

I've turned around games in Silver elo just by buying an oralces when the opposing support didn't. Their team walked into a 5 man Sona ult and promptly lost the game. Support influence is often subtle but very effective.

I think the question is, if there is a support on both sides, how can support win anything other than 50% of games. I guess the answer is the support role is troll-picked more often (including passive-aggressive picks like nidalee support) so the actual support champs gain a high win rate.
kainzero
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States5211 Posts
August 14 2013 00:42 GMT
#4846
On August 14 2013 09:28 mr_tolkien wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2013 08:59 Sermokala wrote:
On August 14 2013 08:54 Ghost-z wrote:
I've got some IP saved up, who is the most OP of the 6300 IP champs?

Tide caller is secret op. Shes a support that can be used as a kill lane support a poky sustain aupport or a brusier support.

And if you miss one Q in lane you just lost lane.

Seriously there's a reason why Nami has a pretty bad winrate for a support (supports usually have very good win rates in SoloQ). One missed Q and that's bye bye, free all-in from the other team.

According to LoLKing she has 49.8% winrate, which is more than Lulu, Thresh, Ali, and Soraka. She gets good play at the competitive level.

I don't think her missed bubbles are anywhere near as bad as missing Zenith Blades or Rocket Grabs, mostly because she still has good ranged harass. But not as good as Thresh because Thresh is stupid good anyway.
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
August 14 2013 00:46 GMT
#4847
On August 14 2013 09:27 FinestHour wrote:
also yorick is freelo the unsung hero of the defense of legends

You're going to get shot
It's your boy Guzma!
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
August 14 2013 00:48 GMT
#4848
On August 14 2013 09:34 bmn wrote:
How can supports have a good win rate overall?

At least diamond and above I'd expect fewer people to pick non-support champs simply because they refuse to support (i.e. troll their team by picking something horrible just because -- not just picking a kill lane)

Madlife skews the scale.
liftlift > tsm
Zanno
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1484 Posts
August 14 2013 00:50 GMT
#4849
On August 14 2013 09:34 bmn wrote:
How can supports have a good win rate overall?

At least diamond and above I'd expect fewer people to pick non-support champs simply because they refuse to support (i.e. troll their team by picking something horrible just because -- not just picking a kill lane)

my janna winrate is 70% and my sona is like 66%

it is so ridiculously easy to support your way out of the bronze pit if you understand conceptually what a support needs to do

it's up to the support not the adc to make the plays that win bot lane and if bot lane snowballs hard enough then this also means it doesn't matter if your adc is not good at the game because not only is he fed as hell you're also good enough at the game to have the common sense to keep him alive in fights and compensate for his bad positioning

if for whatever reason bot lane does not go so well figure out who has the greatest chances of carrying the game and do everything in your power to keep them alive and you'll win
aaaaa
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
August 14 2013 01:19 GMT
#4850
On August 14 2013 09:42 kainzero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2013 09:28 mr_tolkien wrote:
On August 14 2013 08:59 Sermokala wrote:
On August 14 2013 08:54 Ghost-z wrote:
I've got some IP saved up, who is the most OP of the 6300 IP champs?

Tide caller is secret op. Shes a support that can be used as a kill lane support a poky sustain aupport or a brusier support.

And if you miss one Q in lane you just lost lane.

Seriously there's a reason why Nami has a pretty bad winrate for a support (supports usually have very good win rates in SoloQ). One missed Q and that's bye bye, free all-in from the other team.

According to LoLKing she has 49.8% winrate, which is more than Lulu, Thresh, Ali, and Soraka. She gets good play at the competitive level.

I don't think her missed bubbles are anywhere near as bad as missing Zenith Blades or Rocket Grabs, mostly because she still has good ranged harass. But not as good as Thresh because Thresh is stupid good anyway.


Thresh: Miss Hook, Hue Hue, still better harass and utility than 90% of champs.

Not that I mind Thresh, I am just PO'd that all the other supports got massacred for being even close to what Thresh is now.
Freeeeeeedom
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-14 01:23:19
August 14 2013 01:21 GMT
#4851
On August 14 2013 09:36 Amethyst21 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2013 09:34 bmn wrote:
How can supports have a good win rate overall?

At least diamond and above I'd expect fewer people to pick non-support champs simply because they refuse to support (i.e. troll their team by picking something horrible just because -- not just picking a kill lane)


Good supports win games. They win lanes. They get map control. They use their champions correctly. They itemize correctly.

I've turned around games in Silver elo just by buying an oralces when the opposing support didn't. Their team walked into a 5 man Sona ult and promptly lost the game. Support influence is often subtle but very effective.


I don't think a 5-man Crescendo is exactly a subtle but effective influence. I'd say that's about Plaguuuuuu level.

On August 14 2013 09:46 Requizen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2013 09:27 FinestHour wrote:
also yorick is freelo the unsung hero of the defense of legends

You're going to get shot


It's okay Yorick will just ult him.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
NeedsmoreCELLTECH
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Netherlands1242 Posts
August 14 2013 01:48 GMT
#4852
I actually feel that Yorick is in a pretty poor state in s3 with the crappy tear, having to go against rejuv beats+pots spam or even flask openings. A lot of shit like Irelia/xin can just all in you at like level 4-5 and you're pretty screwed.
Get huge or die mirin | Diamond on LoL
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-14 02:45:26
August 14 2013 02:31 GMT
#4853
the advantage of being a support main is 75% of the time your direct opponent is playing a role they don't put as much focus on as you, and 50% the time are mad about it.

also damn.

Teamfight UI looks so sick, all we need now is a post battle damage parse.
Carrilord has arrived.
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
August 14 2013 02:47 GMT
#4854
On August 14 2013 11:31 Slusher wrote:
the advantage of being a support main is 75% of the time your direct opponent is playing a role they don't put as much focus on as you, and 50% the time are mad about it.

also damn.

Teamfight UI looks so sick, all we need now is a post battle damage parse.


What we need is a full combat log. Obviously it's a dev feature, but if it could be enabled in options that'd be great.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
kainzero
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States5211 Posts
August 14 2013 02:51 GMT
#4855
On August 14 2013 10:21 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2013 09:36 Amethyst21 wrote:
On August 14 2013 09:34 bmn wrote:
How can supports have a good win rate overall?

At least diamond and above I'd expect fewer people to pick non-support champs simply because they refuse to support (i.e. troll their team by picking something horrible just because -- not just picking a kill lane)


Good supports win games. They win lanes. They get map control. They use their champions correctly. They itemize correctly.

I've turned around games in Silver elo just by buying an oralces when the opposing support didn't. Their team walked into a 5 man Sona ult and promptly lost the game. Support influence is often subtle but very effective.


I don't think a 5-man Crescendo is exactly a subtle but effective influence. I'd say that's about Plaguuuuuu level.

He might have been referring to Oracle's allowing him to clear wards and set up for 5-man Crescendo.

Or not.

I dunno.
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
August 14 2013 03:09 GMT
#4856
I need an expert on the Korean scene stat. Talk to me on NA (Montegomery).
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany12026 Posts
August 14 2013 03:27 GMT
#4857
On August 14 2013 09:50 Zanno wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2013 09:34 bmn wrote:
How can supports have a good win rate overall?

At least diamond and above I'd expect fewer people to pick non-support champs simply because they refuse to support (i.e. troll their team by picking something horrible just because -- not just picking a kill lane)

my janna winrate is 70% and my sona is like 66%

it is so ridiculously easy to support your way out of the bronze pit if you understand conceptually what a support needs to do

it's up to the support not the adc to make the plays that win bot lane and if bot lane snowballs hard enough then this also means it doesn't matter if your adc is not good at the game because not only is he fed as hell you're also good enough at the game to have the common sense to keep him alive in fights and compensate for his bad positioning

if for whatever reason bot lane does not go so well figure out who has the greatest chances of carrying the game and do everything in your power to keep them alive and you'll win


Yeah, but the point was that whenever you win as a support, someone else loses as a support. The only way for the support role as a whole, in contrast to just specific support champions to have a winrate that is not 50% is for one side to not have a support. Which probably reduces their chances of winning, but also doesn't really happen that often, at least not at my rating.
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
August 14 2013 03:35 GMT
#4858
If they're really bad, picking a support can sometimes be a recipe for disaster because they don't understand that Caitlyn/Sona can't 1v1 Draven/Vayne at the beginning of the game.

I also hate those supports who think they are just spellbots and refuse to auto attack.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
Zanno
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1484 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-14 03:40:56
August 14 2013 03:39 GMT
#4859
On August 14 2013 12:27 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2013 09:50 Zanno wrote:
On August 14 2013 09:34 bmn wrote:
How can supports have a good win rate overall?

At least diamond and above I'd expect fewer people to pick non-support champs simply because they refuse to support (i.e. troll their team by picking something horrible just because -- not just picking a kill lane)

my janna winrate is 70% and my sona is like 66%

it is so ridiculously easy to support your way out of the bronze pit if you understand conceptually what a support needs to do

it's up to the support not the adc to make the plays that win bot lane and if bot lane snowballs hard enough then this also means it doesn't matter if your adc is not good at the game because not only is he fed as hell you're also good enough at the game to have the common sense to keep him alive in fights and compensate for his bad positioning

if for whatever reason bot lane does not go so well figure out who has the greatest chances of carrying the game and do everything in your power to keep them alive and you'll win


Yeah, but the point was that whenever you win as a support, someone else loses as a support. The only way for the support role as a whole, in contrast to just specific support champions to have a winrate that is not 50% is for one side to not have a support. Which probably reduces their chances of winning, but also doesn't really happen that often, at least not at my rating.

people who aren't support mains gravitate to bad supports/not actually supports

ex: lux, nidalee, nautilus, volibear, are not actually supports. there is no reason to play support lux over zyra, there's no reason to play nidalee period, and if you want to play a ham going tank support there's no reason to play naut/voli over leona. like today, i got matched with a guy who was gold 4 in a normal, he said "i can't support" and just locked nautilus. how you can get that far with no understanding of how to support is a mystery to me, and while he played nautilus well as nautilus the pick caught up to us badly in the lategame because he spent too much warding to build enough to survive in fights.

then you have the bad supports, taric and soraka are huge go tos for people who don't know what they're doing and just want to sit there and heal and do nothing. a good taric or soraka is dangerous but they have both become extremely situational picks so you end up with tarics that not only max heal and rakas that don't use the banana, but picked into a comp where you can't afford to have a dead weight support lategame. then you have zilean, who it would be really cool if he could work but he falls off too quickly and he's squishy - a good strategy is to simply ignore the adc and gangbang zilean over and over from 1-5.

then factor in that thresh is the new blitzcrank and the go to "pick me this support even though i have no clue how to play support at all" and it shouldn't be surprising that most of the top tier supports have high winrates
aaaaa
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-14 03:47:35
August 14 2013 03:42 GMT
#4860
On August 14 2013 12:39 Zanno wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2013 12:27 Simberto wrote:
On August 14 2013 09:50 Zanno wrote:
On August 14 2013 09:34 bmn wrote:
How can supports have a good win rate overall?

At least diamond and above I'd expect fewer people to pick non-support champs simply because they refuse to support (i.e. troll their team by picking something horrible just because -- not just picking a kill lane)

my janna winrate is 70% and my sona is like 66%

it is so ridiculously easy to support your way out of the bronze pit if you understand conceptually what a support needs to do

it's up to the support not the adc to make the plays that win bot lane and if bot lane snowballs hard enough then this also means it doesn't matter if your adc is not good at the game because not only is he fed as hell you're also good enough at the game to have the common sense to keep him alive in fights and compensate for his bad positioning

if for whatever reason bot lane does not go so well figure out who has the greatest chances of carrying the game and do everything in your power to keep them alive and you'll win


Yeah, but the point was that whenever you win as a support, someone else loses as a support. The only way for the support role as a whole, in contrast to just specific support champions to have a winrate that is not 50% is for one side to not have a support. Which probably reduces their chances of winning, but also doesn't really happen that often, at least not at my rating.

ex: lux, nidalee, nautilus, volibear, are not actually supports. there is no reason to play support lux over zyra, there's no reason to play nidalee period, and if you want to play a ham going tank support there's no reason to play naut/voli over leona. like today, i got matched with a guy who was gold 4 in a normal, he said "i can't support" and just locked nautilus. how you can get that far with no understanding of how to support is a mystery to me, and while he played nautilus well as nautilus the pick caught up to us badly in the lategame because he spent too much warding to build enough to survive in fights.

then you have zilean, who it would be really cool if he could work but he falls off too quickly and he's squishy - a good strategy is to simply ignore the adc and gangbang zilean over and over from 1-5.

I don't think Zilean is even that squishy naturally relative to other supports. He just has higher mana costs so I think Zileans probably run more mana runes and less armor runes.

Another interesting thing to note is that if Volibear and Nidalee lose bot lane a lot, then we can assume that if Nidalee and Volibear still have a 50% win rate overall, that they are overpowered in top/mid or top/jungle since they have to have a >50% win rate to balance it out. I'd wanted to make a script to do some calculations for this using data from lolking but unfortunately lolking only lists a few players for every champion.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
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