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[Patch 3.10: Yimake Patch] General Discussion - Page 11

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No more bad posting
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
July 31 2013 04:55 GMT
#201
The counterplay to the video you posted obesechicken is backing off as soon as you see the enemy middle laner leaving his lane.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-31 05:01:22
July 31 2013 05:00 GMT
#202
On July 31 2013 13:22 Dark_Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 13:03 Amarok wrote:
On July 31 2013 12:39 Dark_Chill wrote:
On July 31 2013 12:00 Amarok wrote:
On July 31 2013 11:36 TheYango wrote:
On July 31 2013 11:17 Amarok wrote:
I'm not 100% convinced on how "rubbish" some of the support items are anyway. Twin Shadows has some great utility throughout the game, Crucible is awesome in certain situations and I doubt the situational usefulness of Shard gets explored enough, particularly on supports that get value out of AP (Zyra and Karma stand out in this regard).

Empirically, "pretty good" has never been good enough for a support item to be bought over wards and oracles. The only items that ever actually stood out enough were stuff like pre-nerf Shurelya's that were just that good.


I guess my point is that I think the items are actually a bit better than "pretty good" in certain situations. For example chalice/crucible is amazing on Sona against all-in comps with poke components, particularly if they have some magic damage. Varus/Leona for example gets shut down pretty hard by it. I could see Shard being useful as a Zyra with a fed Akali on her team that isn't building Rylai's (for whatever reason). I find the dismissal of Shard particularly confusing given that a slow field is, in a general sense, something that is generally pretty useful. We get way too hung up on the chasing/offensive component of the Twin Shadows active dropping off and forget that all game it retains usefulness in situations where you're warding/clearing vision or even kiting defensively. Not to mention there's a mantra about the "stat that shall not be named" being useless on supports when that's very clearly not the case, or at least not always the case.

Thing is it's pretty much impossible for players to really apply any of this stuff when Locket is so incredibly strong. I should be able to be rewarded for building correctly for a situation, not punished because I didn't buy an item that's always better than every option.


I think most people are arguing that those items should be better through build path or lower cost. The crux of the argument is that since they're not good enough for other champs to buy, then no one is going to buy them.
I can see twin shadows being really good like this:

Twin Shadows (NNM+400g)
-20 mr
-6%ms
-Active: Hunt

Shard of True Ice (amp tome+faerie+200g)
-25ap
-6regen
Active: Blizzard

I don't know how good these are, but they have most of their worth in their actives (I think) and could be good enough for solo laners early on in some situations (a roaming mid getting some mr, or maybe a jungler who needs to stick to targets when ganking).


I don't think Riot wants to implement something that could drastically change the way the other lanes play though. An active like Hunt on an item purchasable in the very early game sounds obscenely strong on face value. Reading Xyph's comments on Phage I can understand this being something they would want to steer clear of.


Wasn't that because it was a really good win-harder item? Plus, hp+ad with a decent buildup is going to be pretty good.
If Twin and Shard had most of their cost in the actives and had low costs, I can't see how they would get to be too much of a problem. I would think that variety to compliment different champs/lanes and try to advance an advantage/create an advantage should be encouraged in the game.

The reason Xyph said that about Phage is that very LITTLE gold was spent on the passive before the +200 gold cost increase - it was mostly cost efficient on HP and AD alone, which meant it let you buy stats that were only slightly less efficient than 2x Doran's, while also extending trades via the slow - which when you're already ahead, was really really strong.

If you're spending gold to get the active without also getting cost efficient stats used for murder, it's not going to be as frustrating. (Especially since active items have long cooldowns that can be played around, while Phage has no cooldown.)
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-31 05:07:47
July 31 2013 05:07 GMT
#203
Honest question, what the crap item do I buy on supports now. I just bought what is probably my last Locket for a long time. Aegis doesn't seem very useful for support, I don't believe in twin shadows. Back to Shurelias if I can somehow afford it?

Try to get zeke's eventually, even though the stats are awkward selfishly? I do love me some 20% CDR.
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
July 31 2013 05:07 GMT
#204
On July 31 2013 14:07 sylverfyre wrote:
Honest question, what the crap item do I buy on supports now. I just bought what is probably my last Locket for a long time. Aegis doesn't seem very useful for support, I don't believe in twin shadows. Back to Shurelias if I can somehow afford it?

Sightstone and Oracles. Enjoy being a wardbitch.
It's your boy Guzma!
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-31 05:10:39
July 31 2013 05:08 GMT
#205
On July 31 2013 13:55 Scip wrote:
The counterplay to the video you posted obesechicken is backing off as soon as you see the enemy middle laner leaving his lane.

Not killing the small lizards when the mid laner is killing you might also help. Jax literally got red, then killed the small lizards before turning to run from KZ.

On July 31 2013 14:07 Requizen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 14:07 sylverfyre wrote:
Honest question, what the crap item do I buy on supports now. I just bought what is probably my last Locket for a long time. Aegis doesn't seem very useful for support, I don't believe in twin shadows. Back to Shurelias if I can somehow afford it?

Sightstone and Oracles. Enjoy being a wardbitch.

Silver/Gold elo games give me too many assists to spend it all on wards because there's so much murder going on. I'm even running health/AD on quints already.
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
July 31 2013 05:10 GMT
#206
On July 31 2013 13:45 Deftscythe wrote:
A shake-up this big this late in the season will probably be the end of VES's chances for this season in LCS, but I feel like overall they're going to be a stronger team for it if someone can step up to be the new shot-caller. If that can happen before relegation (which is after worlds? Not sure) and VES can get back in for next year, I think they'll give a much better showing.


to be fair, playoffs are completely out of our reach without divine intervention. 7th place is barely doable (coast second half of schedule is pretty brutal imo), 6th requires massive brainfarts by dig or curse. the problem is all the upper-mid teams lose to the lower-mid teams, so the next week the upper-mids and lower-mids switch and then the cycle repeats. it's a testament to how close the scene as a whole is (which i like) but at the same time i have been praying for some team to just consistently beat the other so we could grasp at some straws XD

but we're not going to give up trying, no matter what. just pray for that divine intervention!
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
cascades
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore6122 Posts
July 31 2013 05:10 GMT
#207
Support itemization now sucks.

I would like to draw your attention to this point:

Voracious Corrosion
No longer reduces the target's Attack Damage by 50%
Now reduces the physical and magic damage the target deals to Nashor by 50%

This is actually the most significant change for the pro scene.
Reduces NA throws by 50%
No longer reduces Dig's winrate by 50%
HS: cascades#1595 || LoL: stoppin
UniversalSnip
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
9871 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-31 05:12:36
July 31 2013 05:12 GMT
#208
On July 31 2013 13:17 TheYango wrote:
Soul Shroud was honesty a better item than Shard of True Ice for something that uses mana manip.


I agree, although soul shroud itself is pretty awkward and not a great item to have around... the stats still make more sense than on shard.
"How fucking dare you defile the sanctity of DotA with your fucking casual plebian terminology? May the curse of Gaben and Volvo be upon you. le filthy casual."
cascades
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore6122 Posts
July 31 2013 05:16 GMT
#209
Next up is Outer turrets now gain 60 bonus Armor at the start of the game, which starts decaying after 4 minutes have passed and finishes decaying 4 minutes later

If it leads to more freezing, rip 1v2 laner chances of doing anything. Well he could transition to support itemization..... oh wait.
HS: cascades#1595 || LoL: stoppin
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-31 05:17:35
July 31 2013 05:16 GMT
#210
On July 31 2013 14:10 gtrsrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 13:45 Deftscythe wrote:
A shake-up this big this late in the season will probably be the end of VES's chances for this season in LCS, but I feel like overall they're going to be a stronger team for it if someone can step up to be the new shot-caller. If that can happen before relegation (which is after worlds? Not sure) and VES can get back in for next year, I think they'll give a much better showing.


to be fair, playoffs are completely out of our reach without divine intervention. 7th place is barely doable (coast second half of schedule is pretty brutal imo), 6th requires massive brainfarts by dig or curse. the problem is all the upper-mid teams lose to the lower-mid teams, so the next week the upper-mids and lower-mids switch and then the cycle repeats. it's a testament to how close the scene as a whole is (which i like) but at the same time i have been praying for some team to just consistently beat the other so we could grasp at some straws XD

but we're not going to give up trying, no matter what. just pray for that divine intervention!

hey, you guys have a better winrate v. CLG than TSM. therefore you're better than TSM. you guys got dis.

on a more serious note i'm still quite impressed by velocity' even if their results aren't great.
sung_moon
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10110 Posts
July 31 2013 05:19 GMT
#211
WOAH I randomly clicked on one of my old posts and got sent to the previous GD thread and heard dat "DAAAWKNESS".

I like it.
Forever Young
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
July 31 2013 05:19 GMT
#212
On July 31 2013 13:17 TheYango wrote:
Soul Shroud was honesty a better item than Shard of True Ice for something that uses mana manip.

Soul shroud one of my favorite items. Shame too; aura cdr would probably be so fucking strong right now in pro play, considering how fast teams groups up now.
liftlift > tsm
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
July 31 2013 05:20 GMT
#213
On July 31 2013 14:10 cascades wrote:
Support itemization now sucks.

I would like to draw your attention to this point:

Voracious Corrosion
No longer reduces the target's Attack Damage by 50%
Now reduces the physical and magic damage the target deals to Nashor by 50%

This is actually the most significant change for the pro scene.
Reduces NA throws by 50%
No longer reduces Dig's winrate by 50%

dig will probably still be low enough health after attempting Baron to still lose anyway.
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
July 31 2013 05:21 GMT
#214
On July 31 2013 14:16 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 14:10 gtrsrs wrote:
On July 31 2013 13:45 Deftscythe wrote:
A shake-up this big this late in the season will probably be the end of VES's chances for this season in LCS, but I feel like overall they're going to be a stronger team for it if someone can step up to be the new shot-caller. If that can happen before relegation (which is after worlds? Not sure) and VES can get back in for next year, I think they'll give a much better showing.


to be fair, playoffs are completely out of our reach without divine intervention. 7th place is barely doable (coast second half of schedule is pretty brutal imo), 6th requires massive brainfarts by dig or curse. the problem is all the upper-mid teams lose to the lower-mid teams, so the next week the upper-mids and lower-mids switch and then the cycle repeats. it's a testament to how close the scene as a whole is (which i like) but at the same time i have been praying for some team to just consistently beat the other so we could grasp at some straws XD

but we're not going to give up trying, no matter what. just pray for that divine intervention!

hey, you guys have a better winrate v. CLG than TSM. therefore you're better than TSM. you guys got dis.

on a more serious note i'm still quite impressed by velocity' even if their results aren't great.


thanks a lot man
again, we won't give up trying, playoffs are ca$h munnay and so there's motivation there, even if we have to pray for a small miracle to make it AND win like 7 of our 8 matches

but it's always nice to hear from supporters, it truly does mean a lot, so thank you
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
July 31 2013 05:25 GMT
#215
On July 31 2013 14:21 gtrsrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 14:16 Ryuu314 wrote:
On July 31 2013 14:10 gtrsrs wrote:
On July 31 2013 13:45 Deftscythe wrote:
A shake-up this big this late in the season will probably be the end of VES's chances for this season in LCS, but I feel like overall they're going to be a stronger team for it if someone can step up to be the new shot-caller. If that can happen before relegation (which is after worlds? Not sure) and VES can get back in for next year, I think they'll give a much better showing.


to be fair, playoffs are completely out of our reach without divine intervention. 7th place is barely doable (coast second half of schedule is pretty brutal imo), 6th requires massive brainfarts by dig or curse. the problem is all the upper-mid teams lose to the lower-mid teams, so the next week the upper-mids and lower-mids switch and then the cycle repeats. it's a testament to how close the scene as a whole is (which i like) but at the same time i have been praying for some team to just consistently beat the other so we could grasp at some straws XD

but we're not going to give up trying, no matter what. just pray for that divine intervention!

hey, you guys have a better winrate v. CLG than TSM. therefore you're better than TSM. you guys got dis.

on a more serious note i'm still quite impressed by velocity' even if their results aren't great.


thanks a lot man
again, we won't give up trying, playoffs are ca$h munnay and so there's motivation there, even if we have to pray for a small miracle to make it AND win like 7 of our 8 matches

but it's always nice to hear from supporters, it truly does mean a lot, so thank you

Even though you guys got slimshot at playoffs; at least take advantage of what's left in LCS to prep you guys for relegation matches, so you guys don't drop out. Would love to see more play from you guys.
liftlift > tsm
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
July 31 2013 05:29 GMT
#216
On July 31 2013 14:25 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2013 14:21 gtrsrs wrote:
On July 31 2013 14:16 Ryuu314 wrote:
On July 31 2013 14:10 gtrsrs wrote:
On July 31 2013 13:45 Deftscythe wrote:
A shake-up this big this late in the season will probably be the end of VES's chances for this season in LCS, but I feel like overall they're going to be a stronger team for it if someone can step up to be the new shot-caller. If that can happen before relegation (which is after worlds? Not sure) and VES can get back in for next year, I think they'll give a much better showing.


to be fair, playoffs are completely out of our reach without divine intervention. 7th place is barely doable (coast second half of schedule is pretty brutal imo), 6th requires massive brainfarts by dig or curse. the problem is all the upper-mid teams lose to the lower-mid teams, so the next week the upper-mids and lower-mids switch and then the cycle repeats. it's a testament to how close the scene as a whole is (which i like) but at the same time i have been praying for some team to just consistently beat the other so we could grasp at some straws XD

but we're not going to give up trying, no matter what. just pray for that divine intervention!

hey, you guys have a better winrate v. CLG than TSM. therefore you're better than TSM. you guys got dis.

on a more serious note i'm still quite impressed by velocity' even if their results aren't great.


thanks a lot man
again, we won't give up trying, playoffs are ca$h munnay and so there's motivation there, even if we have to pray for a small miracle to make it AND win like 7 of our 8 matches

but it's always nice to hear from supporters, it truly does mean a lot, so thank you

Even though you guys got slimshot at playoffs; at least take advantage of what's left in LCS to prep you guys for relegation matches, so you guys don't drop out. Would love to see more play from you guys.


i quit my job and moved out of my comfy apartment with my girlfriend so i'm not gonna let them drop out after 1 split
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
July 31 2013 05:35 GMT
#217
I wonder if their are any plans to expand LCS to more teams; as to make regular season more meaningful? 6 out of 8 makes playoff is pretty ridiculous,
liftlift > tsm
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-31 05:43:13
July 31 2013 05:42 GMT
#218
On July 31 2013 14:35 wei2coolman wrote:
I wonder if their are any plans to expand LCS to more teams; as to make regular season more meaningful? 6 out of 8 makes playoff is pretty ridiculous,

Riot pls.

I feel like they will probably expand it to at least 12 teams. I would like 16 though, but doubling the teams is asking too much.
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
BlueBird.
Profile Joined August 2008
United States3890 Posts
July 31 2013 05:42 GMT
#219
On July 31 2013 14:35 wei2coolman wrote:
I wonder if their are any plans to expand LCS to more teams; as to make regular season more meaningful? 6 out of 8 makes playoff is pretty ridiculous,


Absolutely 100% agreed. More teams or less playoff spots.
Currently Playing: Android Netrunner, Gwent, Gloomhaven, Board Games
Capped
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom7236 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-31 05:48:48
July 31 2013 05:46 GMT
#220
Make a b-league for more teams IMO, maybe online during the week? Could fly them in for their own super week lol.First post from iPhone yay lol sitting in srilankan visa office lol
Useless wet fish.
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