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On July 12 2013 04:25 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 04:21 Letmelose wrote:On July 12 2013 03:46 canucks12 wrote:On July 12 2013 03:31 Letmelose wrote:
There is nothing to suggest that Riot cares about competitive integrity, and if we keep letting stuff like this slip by, there's nothing to stop this entire thing being degenerated into a total joke. What? Let it slip by? Who's letting what slip by? It's their game, and I'm sure they have a financial plan. You're making a bold statement here and it doesn't really make much sense. There is no way that they will let their game be "degenerated into a total joke." I'm sure that they are doing what they feel is best and what fits their financial budget. Maybe bumping it up to 16 teams didn't seem worth the added cost of flights, accomodations, translators, etc. involved. Another point: With 3 NA, EU teams that are weaker than the 2KR, 2CH, etc teams, you'll probably have a higher viewer retention throughout the tournament. The KR and CH teams will likely eliminate the lesser teams and stay in the tournament longer. If there were more of them, it ups the chances of there being no NA/EU teams in the later stages of the tournament, leading to a loss of viewers from those regions. I'm talking about competitive integrity. If Riot cannot handle the finances, or is incapable of hosting a legitimate international tournament, perhaps they shouldn't have taken complete monopoly over it. I get that they are doing what they feel is best, I truly do, but shouldn't these points to discussed in detail, especially when we consider the fact that this is the only competition left where we get to see all the teams from the world? When else will you get the chance to see Uzi battle it out against players from other regions, whether or not Lantyr's Lee Sin is truly as great as the legends say, or if Godjj can hold his own versus other top class AD carries? Shouldn't everyone be given a fair chance? As for your second point, the I guess the question is whether you will watch Season 3 World Championship to experience the joy of seeing the best players in the world battle it out, or whether you just want your favourite teams do well in a prestigious tournament. So what constitutes a fair chance in your eyes? Equal number of slots from each region? You talk about all these amazing storylines you want to experience, but I don't think there is going to be any shortage of them once the tournament starts.
People also need to be reminded that this is a tournament; not a season. Tournament determines who's best on THAT day, not the best for all time.
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In other news.
I've seen a couple Jayce's since the patch and they still seem pretty goddamn strong, what do you guys think about him post-nerf?
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On July 12 2013 04:39 Ketara wrote:
In other news.
I've seen a couple Jayce's since the patch and they still seem pretty goddamn strong, what do you guys think about him post-nerf?
Played against Jayce in ranked today; completely smashed me; but I'm pretty sure that had more to do with my mid laner feeding him like 4-5 kills.
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Well other than his gate combo having a longer cd he isn't any different.Yeah you stack tear slower but if you play him well he is still very strong.
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On July 12 2013 04:00 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 03:37 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 03:27 TheYango wrote:On July 12 2013 03:23 jpak wrote:
I just don't understand the hard-on that a lot of people have about double-elimination tournaments.
More games =/= better tournament. Double Elim increases the likelihood that your top few teams are the best teams by decreasing the chance of bracket screw. It's not about more games, it's that if you have one side of the bracket really stacked, it's possible for the finals to be really underwhelming if it's the best team vs. a far weaker team because the most likely contenders got eliminated earlier in the tournament. This actually is a real problem for World's because the strength of teams actually is really skewed (regardless of who qualifies, there's going to be a clear gap in ability between the best few teams at the tournament and the worst). Unless Riot is artificially fixing the brackets (which is questionable in its own right), a bracket that puts most of the stronger teams on one side of the bracket could lead to a very anticlimactic 3-0 finals. Single elim is appropriate for tournaments where the skill level between all contenders is somewhat close, and everyone has a chance against everyone else. This is, unfortunately, probably not going to be the case at Worlds. You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB. As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much. I think the reason why people are so sensitive about the brackets, and the way qualifications are structured is because this happens to be the only tournament left that all regions participate in. This is the only chance we get to see teams such as AHQ e-Sports Club, Royal Club, Positive Energy, Azubu Taipei Snipers, Cloud9, and Team Alternate get a chance to compete at the highest level, and Riot is not giving them a fair chance. I get the feeling that people are just okay with whatever the hell Riot does as long as there's a good show, because one of the Asian teams (because Asian teams are basically all the same to them) win in the end. We wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit if there were more cross-regional competition, but Riot has pro-actively went against that direction, then have been putting forth some really questioning decisions in terms of competitive integrity this season, and I'm really starting to distrust whether their heart is in the right place here. I want the only major international competition to include the best teams in the world I would not have gotten to enjoy otherwise. I want that tournament to reward excellence, not having a lucky streak. I see the World Cup to see Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Iniesta, Robben, and Van Persie battle it out for their place in history. Of course I will root for my national side, but I'm mainly enjoying the festivities of experiencing the best players in the world play for their national colours (No, I don't complain about faceless Brazilian or Spanish footballers). Of course, the fact that the Champions League has essentially replaced the World Cup as the quintessential tournament to see who truly is the best player in the world has lifted the burden from the World Cup to capture all that magic, but as for Leauge of Legends, Season 3 World Championship is all we've got. The way things are structured right now is far from perfect, and various points needs to be addressed. It's should be our job as fans.
That particular discussion was strictly about single elimination vs. double elimination. As far as spot allocation goes I'm also unhappy about it, they chose to sacrifice competition in favor of marketing.
Next season there needs to be a universal calendar for regional leagues, with synchronized breaks for international tournaments. LCS is all fine and dandy but it was actually more entertaining to follow S2 when I would eagerly await the next big LAN.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 12 2013 04:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 03:53 wei2coolman wrote:On July 12 2013 03:50 TheYango wrote:
LoL needs something like dota2lounge where I can bet my IP.
I would do that shit all the time. You'd be a very very rich man; hue. Yango would go broke all-ining on Royal all the time out of sheer fanboysim.
Not true. I probably wouldn't have the balls to actually bet on them against WE or OMG. And against iG, iG throws often enough for the actual odds to be better than what they'd look like on paper.
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On July 12 2013 04:43 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 04:00 Letmelose wrote:On July 12 2013 03:37 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 03:27 TheYango wrote:On July 12 2013 03:23 jpak wrote:
I just don't understand the hard-on that a lot of people have about double-elimination tournaments.
More games =/= better tournament. Double Elim increases the likelihood that your top few teams are the best teams by decreasing the chance of bracket screw. It's not about more games, it's that if you have one side of the bracket really stacked, it's possible for the finals to be really underwhelming if it's the best team vs. a far weaker team because the most likely contenders got eliminated earlier in the tournament. This actually is a real problem for World's because the strength of teams actually is really skewed (regardless of who qualifies, there's going to be a clear gap in ability between the best few teams at the tournament and the worst). Unless Riot is artificially fixing the brackets (which is questionable in its own right), a bracket that puts most of the stronger teams on one side of the bracket could lead to a very anticlimactic 3-0 finals. Single elim is appropriate for tournaments where the skill level between all contenders is somewhat close, and everyone has a chance against everyone else. This is, unfortunately, probably not going to be the case at Worlds. You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB. As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much. I think the reason why people are so sensitive about the brackets, and the way qualifications are structured is because this happens to be the only tournament left that all regions participate in. This is the only chance we get to see teams such as AHQ e-Sports Club, Royal Club, Positive Energy, Azubu Taipei Snipers, Cloud9, and Team Alternate get a chance to compete at the highest level, and Riot is not giving them a fair chance. I get the feeling that people are just okay with whatever the hell Riot does as long as there's a good show, because one of the Asian teams (because Asian teams are basically all the same to them) win in the end. We wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit if there were more cross-regional competition, but Riot has pro-actively went against that direction, then have been putting forth some really questioning decisions in terms of competitive integrity this season, and I'm really starting to distrust whether their heart is in the right place here. I want the only major international competition to include the best teams in the world I would not have gotten to enjoy otherwise. I want that tournament to reward excellence, not having a lucky streak. I see the World Cup to see Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Iniesta, Robben, and Van Persie battle it out for their place in history. Of course I will root for my national side, but I'm mainly enjoying the festivities of experiencing the best players in the world play for their national colours (No, I don't complain about faceless Brazilian or Spanish footballers). Of course, the fact that the Champions League has essentially replaced the World Cup as the quintessential tournament to see who truly is the best player in the world has lifted the burden from the World Cup to capture all that magic, but as for Leauge of Legends, Season 3 World Championship is all we've got. The way things are structured right now is far from perfect, and various points needs to be addressed. It's should be our job as fans. That particular discussion was strictly about single elimination vs. double elimination. As far as spot allocation goes I'm also unhappy about it, they chose to sacrifice competition in favor of marketing. Next season there needs to be a universal calendar for regional leagues, with synchronized breaks for international tournaments. LCS is all fine and dandy but it was actually more entertaining to follow S2 when I would eagerly await the next big LAN.
I think that's pretty disingenuous to say that they're sacrificing competition in favor of marketing.
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On July 12 2013 04:39 Ketara wrote:
In other news.
I've seen a couple Jayce's since the patch and they still seem pretty goddamn strong, what do you guys think about him post-nerf?
Hes still good.
Thats why on the PBE forums some guy from riot posted something that was going to go up: basically a complete change to jayce.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=39654745#post39654745
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On July 12 2013 04:45 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 04:43 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:00 Letmelose wrote:On July 12 2013 03:37 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 03:27 TheYango wrote:On July 12 2013 03:23 jpak wrote:
I just don't understand the hard-on that a lot of people have about double-elimination tournaments.
More games =/= better tournament. Double Elim increases the likelihood that your top few teams are the best teams by decreasing the chance of bracket screw. It's not about more games, it's that if you have one side of the bracket really stacked, it's possible for the finals to be really underwhelming if it's the best team vs. a far weaker team because the most likely contenders got eliminated earlier in the tournament. This actually is a real problem for World's because the strength of teams actually is really skewed (regardless of who qualifies, there's going to be a clear gap in ability between the best few teams at the tournament and the worst). Unless Riot is artificially fixing the brackets (which is questionable in its own right), a bracket that puts most of the stronger teams on one side of the bracket could lead to a very anticlimactic 3-0 finals. Single elim is appropriate for tournaments where the skill level between all contenders is somewhat close, and everyone has a chance against everyone else. This is, unfortunately, probably not going to be the case at Worlds. You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB. As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much. I think the reason why people are so sensitive about the brackets, and the way qualifications are structured is because this happens to be the only tournament left that all regions participate in. This is the only chance we get to see teams such as AHQ e-Sports Club, Royal Club, Positive Energy, Azubu Taipei Snipers, Cloud9, and Team Alternate get a chance to compete at the highest level, and Riot is not giving them a fair chance. I get the feeling that people are just okay with whatever the hell Riot does as long as there's a good show, because one of the Asian teams (because Asian teams are basically all the same to them) win in the end. We wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit if there were more cross-regional competition, but Riot has pro-actively went against that direction, then have been putting forth some really questioning decisions in terms of competitive integrity this season, and I'm really starting to distrust whether their heart is in the right place here. I want the only major international competition to include the best teams in the world I would not have gotten to enjoy otherwise. I want that tournament to reward excellence, not having a lucky streak. I see the World Cup to see Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Iniesta, Robben, and Van Persie battle it out for their place in history. Of course I will root for my national side, but I'm mainly enjoying the festivities of experiencing the best players in the world play for their national colours (No, I don't complain about faceless Brazilian or Spanish footballers). Of course, the fact that the Champions League has essentially replaced the World Cup as the quintessential tournament to see who truly is the best player in the world has lifted the burden from the World Cup to capture all that magic, but as for Leauge of Legends, Season 3 World Championship is all we've got. The way things are structured right now is far from perfect, and various points needs to be addressed. It's should be our job as fans. That particular discussion was strictly about single elimination vs. double elimination. As far as spot allocation goes I'm also unhappy about it, they chose to sacrifice competition in favor of marketing. Next season there needs to be a universal calendar for regional leagues, with synchronized breaks for international tournaments. LCS is all fine and dandy but it was actually more entertaining to follow S2 when I would eagerly await the next big LAN. I think that's pretty disingenuous to say that they're sacrificing competition in favor of marketing.
So you think Riot believes the 3rd place in EU & NA is better than the 3rd place in CN & KR? This is clearly a marketing decision, not a competitive one.
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On July 12 2013 04:47 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 04:45 wei2coolman wrote:On July 12 2013 04:43 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:00 Letmelose wrote:On July 12 2013 03:37 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 03:27 TheYango wrote:On July 12 2013 03:23 jpak wrote:
I just don't understand the hard-on that a lot of people have about double-elimination tournaments.
More games =/= better tournament. Double Elim increases the likelihood that your top few teams are the best teams by decreasing the chance of bracket screw. It's not about more games, it's that if you have one side of the bracket really stacked, it's possible for the finals to be really underwhelming if it's the best team vs. a far weaker team because the most likely contenders got eliminated earlier in the tournament. This actually is a real problem for World's because the strength of teams actually is really skewed (regardless of who qualifies, there's going to be a clear gap in ability between the best few teams at the tournament and the worst). Unless Riot is artificially fixing the brackets (which is questionable in its own right), a bracket that puts most of the stronger teams on one side of the bracket could lead to a very anticlimactic 3-0 finals. Single elim is appropriate for tournaments where the skill level between all contenders is somewhat close, and everyone has a chance against everyone else. This is, unfortunately, probably not going to be the case at Worlds. You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB. As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much. I think the reason why people are so sensitive about the brackets, and the way qualifications are structured is because this happens to be the only tournament left that all regions participate in. This is the only chance we get to see teams such as AHQ e-Sports Club, Royal Club, Positive Energy, Azubu Taipei Snipers, Cloud9, and Team Alternate get a chance to compete at the highest level, and Riot is not giving them a fair chance. I get the feeling that people are just okay with whatever the hell Riot does as long as there's a good show, because one of the Asian teams (because Asian teams are basically all the same to them) win in the end. We wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit if there were more cross-regional competition, but Riot has pro-actively went against that direction, then have been putting forth some really questioning decisions in terms of competitive integrity this season, and I'm really starting to distrust whether their heart is in the right place here. I want the only major international competition to include the best teams in the world I would not have gotten to enjoy otherwise. I want that tournament to reward excellence, not having a lucky streak. I see the World Cup to see Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Iniesta, Robben, and Van Persie battle it out for their place in history. Of course I will root for my national side, but I'm mainly enjoying the festivities of experiencing the best players in the world play for their national colours (No, I don't complain about faceless Brazilian or Spanish footballers). Of course, the fact that the Champions League has essentially replaced the World Cup as the quintessential tournament to see who truly is the best player in the world has lifted the burden from the World Cup to capture all that magic, but as for Leauge of Legends, Season 3 World Championship is all we've got. The way things are structured right now is far from perfect, and various points needs to be addressed. It's should be our job as fans. That particular discussion was strictly about single elimination vs. double elimination. As far as spot allocation goes I'm also unhappy about it, they chose to sacrifice competition in favor of marketing. Next season there needs to be a universal calendar for regional leagues, with synchronized breaks for international tournaments. LCS is all fine and dandy but it was actually more entertaining to follow S2 when I would eagerly await the next big LAN. I think that's pretty disingenuous to say that they're sacrificing competition in favor of marketing. So you think Riot believes the 3rd place in EU & NA is better than the 3rd place in CN & KR? This is clearly a marketing decision, not a competitive one.
*insert neo post*
+ Show Spoiler +On July 12 2013 04:35 NeoIllusions wrote:@Letmelose, I hate to single you out because you are sincerely one of my favorite posters in this subforum because you put so much effort and thought into each of your posts. You are a quality user in our community. I would wish that you move away from the "competitive integrity" phrase when expressing your disdain for the tournament layout. The difference in entries is that NA/EU get 3 and the rest get 2. As our resident Korean fan, I can see why you're pissed that not all the regions have the same number of starting entries. There's an odd number of region for number of entries to make a bracket of the appropriate size for the playoffs. I don't think it comes as a surprise why Riot has given an extra entry each to NA and EU but that hardly disputes the fact that the best teams will make it through and eventually win Worlds. So what it comes down to it is that you're unhappy that other subsequent top tier teams don't get an opportunity to attend. But that goes back to the point that the best teams will make it, if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough. The ability of each region is relative, just because the 3rd entry of Korea is better than the 3rd entry of NA is moot. It is slightly unfair to the Asian regions but it hardly deems enough to call the entire tournament a shamble and facade because the starting entries wasn't equal. Also, if you have a better format that takes time and money into consideration, feel free to share. I personally think the format is fine and that the best team of Season 3 will win. Lastly, I've opened a new thread specifically for the Season 3 postseason stuff. So if everyone would slowly trickle over there for discussion, it'd be appreciated.
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Q_Q my heart, those olaf level nerfs... riot pls Q_Q
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On July 12 2013 04:50 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 04:47 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:45 wei2coolman wrote:On July 12 2013 04:43 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:00 Letmelose wrote:On July 12 2013 03:37 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 03:27 TheYango wrote:On July 12 2013 03:23 jpak wrote:
I just don't understand the hard-on that a lot of people have about double-elimination tournaments.
More games =/= better tournament. Double Elim increases the likelihood that your top few teams are the best teams by decreasing the chance of bracket screw. It's not about more games, it's that if you have one side of the bracket really stacked, it's possible for the finals to be really underwhelming if it's the best team vs. a far weaker team because the most likely contenders got eliminated earlier in the tournament. This actually is a real problem for World's because the strength of teams actually is really skewed (regardless of who qualifies, there's going to be a clear gap in ability between the best few teams at the tournament and the worst). Unless Riot is artificially fixing the brackets (which is questionable in its own right), a bracket that puts most of the stronger teams on one side of the bracket could lead to a very anticlimactic 3-0 finals. Single elim is appropriate for tournaments where the skill level between all contenders is somewhat close, and everyone has a chance against everyone else. This is, unfortunately, probably not going to be the case at Worlds. You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB. As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much. I think the reason why people are so sensitive about the brackets, and the way qualifications are structured is because this happens to be the only tournament left that all regions participate in. This is the only chance we get to see teams such as AHQ e-Sports Club, Royal Club, Positive Energy, Azubu Taipei Snipers, Cloud9, and Team Alternate get a chance to compete at the highest level, and Riot is not giving them a fair chance. I get the feeling that people are just okay with whatever the hell Riot does as long as there's a good show, because one of the Asian teams (because Asian teams are basically all the same to them) win in the end. We wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit if there were more cross-regional competition, but Riot has pro-actively went against that direction, then have been putting forth some really questioning decisions in terms of competitive integrity this season, and I'm really starting to distrust whether their heart is in the right place here. I want the only major international competition to include the best teams in the world I would not have gotten to enjoy otherwise. I want that tournament to reward excellence, not having a lucky streak. I see the World Cup to see Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Iniesta, Robben, and Van Persie battle it out for their place in history. Of course I will root for my national side, but I'm mainly enjoying the festivities of experiencing the best players in the world play for their national colours (No, I don't complain about faceless Brazilian or Spanish footballers). Of course, the fact that the Champions League has essentially replaced the World Cup as the quintessential tournament to see who truly is the best player in the world has lifted the burden from the World Cup to capture all that magic, but as for Leauge of Legends, Season 3 World Championship is all we've got. The way things are structured right now is far from perfect, and various points needs to be addressed. It's should be our job as fans. That particular discussion was strictly about single elimination vs. double elimination. As far as spot allocation goes I'm also unhappy about it, they chose to sacrifice competition in favor of marketing. Next season there needs to be a universal calendar for regional leagues, with synchronized breaks for international tournaments. LCS is all fine and dandy but it was actually more entertaining to follow S2 when I would eagerly await the next big LAN. I think that's pretty disingenuous to say that they're sacrificing competition in favor of marketing. So you think Riot believes the 3rd place in EU & NA is better than the 3rd place in CN & KR? This is clearly a marketing decision, not a competitive one. *insert neo post* + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2013 04:35 NeoIllusions wrote:@Letmelose, I hate to single you out because you are sincerely one of my favorite posters in this subforum because you put so much effort and thought into each of your posts. You are a quality user in our community. I would wish that you move away from the "competitive integrity" phrase when expressing your disdain for the tournament layout. The difference in entries is that NA/EU get 3 and the rest get 2. As our resident Korean fan, I can see why you're pissed that not all the regions have the same number of starting entries. There's an odd number of region for number of entries to make a bracket of the appropriate size for the playoffs. I don't think it comes as a surprise why Riot has given an extra entry each to NA and EU but that hardly disputes the fact that the best teams will make it through and eventually win Worlds. So what it comes down to it is that you're unhappy that other subsequent top tier teams don't get an opportunity to attend. But that goes back to the point that the best teams will make it, if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough. The ability of each region is relative, just because the 3rd entry of Korea is better than the 3rd entry of NA is moot. It is slightly unfair to the Asian regions but it hardly deems enough to call the entire tournament a shamble and facade because the starting entries wasn't equal. Also, if you have a better format that takes time and money into consideration, feel free to share. I personally think the format is fine and that the best team of Season 3 will win. Lastly, I've opened a new thread specifically for the Season 3 postseason stuff. So if everyone would slowly trickle over there for discussion, it'd be appreciated.
I don't see a single argument there that invalidates what I said. I understand why they did it, but that doesn't change the fact that the spot allocation is not based on competitive strenght.
And I also disagree with his argument that "if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough", given how close things are at the top in KR & CN - the 3rd/4th place there actually has a chance to make the final unlike ATN or CLG. Ozone finished 5th-8th before winning Spring, OMG was 4th or 5th in CN before LPL Spring.
You're trying to convince me that water isn't wet.
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On July 12 2013 05:00 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 04:50 wei2coolman wrote:On July 12 2013 04:47 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:45 wei2coolman wrote:On July 12 2013 04:43 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:00 Letmelose wrote:On July 12 2013 03:37 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 03:27 TheYango wrote:On July 12 2013 03:23 jpak wrote:
I just don't understand the hard-on that a lot of people have about double-elimination tournaments.
More games =/= better tournament. Double Elim increases the likelihood that your top few teams are the best teams by decreasing the chance of bracket screw. It's not about more games, it's that if you have one side of the bracket really stacked, it's possible for the finals to be really underwhelming if it's the best team vs. a far weaker team because the most likely contenders got eliminated earlier in the tournament. This actually is a real problem for World's because the strength of teams actually is really skewed (regardless of who qualifies, there's going to be a clear gap in ability between the best few teams at the tournament and the worst). Unless Riot is artificially fixing the brackets (which is questionable in its own right), a bracket that puts most of the stronger teams on one side of the bracket could lead to a very anticlimactic 3-0 finals. Single elim is appropriate for tournaments where the skill level between all contenders is somewhat close, and everyone has a chance against everyone else. This is, unfortunately, probably not going to be the case at Worlds. You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB. As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much. I think the reason why people are so sensitive about the brackets, and the way qualifications are structured is because this happens to be the only tournament left that all regions participate in. This is the only chance we get to see teams such as AHQ e-Sports Club, Royal Club, Positive Energy, Azubu Taipei Snipers, Cloud9, and Team Alternate get a chance to compete at the highest level, and Riot is not giving them a fair chance. I get the feeling that people are just okay with whatever the hell Riot does as long as there's a good show, because one of the Asian teams (because Asian teams are basically all the same to them) win in the end. We wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit if there were more cross-regional competition, but Riot has pro-actively went against that direction, then have been putting forth some really questioning decisions in terms of competitive integrity this season, and I'm really starting to distrust whether their heart is in the right place here. I want the only major international competition to include the best teams in the world I would not have gotten to enjoy otherwise. I want that tournament to reward excellence, not having a lucky streak. I see the World Cup to see Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Iniesta, Robben, and Van Persie battle it out for their place in history. Of course I will root for my national side, but I'm mainly enjoying the festivities of experiencing the best players in the world play for their national colours (No, I don't complain about faceless Brazilian or Spanish footballers). Of course, the fact that the Champions League has essentially replaced the World Cup as the quintessential tournament to see who truly is the best player in the world has lifted the burden from the World Cup to capture all that magic, but as for Leauge of Legends, Season 3 World Championship is all we've got. The way things are structured right now is far from perfect, and various points needs to be addressed. It's should be our job as fans. That particular discussion was strictly about single elimination vs. double elimination. As far as spot allocation goes I'm also unhappy about it, they chose to sacrifice competition in favor of marketing. Next season there needs to be a universal calendar for regional leagues, with synchronized breaks for international tournaments. LCS is all fine and dandy but it was actually more entertaining to follow S2 when I would eagerly await the next big LAN. I think that's pretty disingenuous to say that they're sacrificing competition in favor of marketing. So you think Riot believes the 3rd place in EU & NA is better than the 3rd place in CN & KR? This is clearly a marketing decision, not a competitive one. *insert neo post* + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2013 04:35 NeoIllusions wrote:@Letmelose, I hate to single you out because you are sincerely one of my favorite posters in this subforum because you put so much effort and thought into each of your posts. You are a quality user in our community. I would wish that you move away from the "competitive integrity" phrase when expressing your disdain for the tournament layout. The difference in entries is that NA/EU get 3 and the rest get 2. As our resident Korean fan, I can see why you're pissed that not all the regions have the same number of starting entries. There's an odd number of region for number of entries to make a bracket of the appropriate size for the playoffs. I don't think it comes as a surprise why Riot has given an extra entry each to NA and EU but that hardly disputes the fact that the best teams will make it through and eventually win Worlds. So what it comes down to it is that you're unhappy that other subsequent top tier teams don't get an opportunity to attend. But that goes back to the point that the best teams will make it, if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough. The ability of each region is relative, just because the 3rd entry of Korea is better than the 3rd entry of NA is moot. It is slightly unfair to the Asian regions but it hardly deems enough to call the entire tournament a shamble and facade because the starting entries wasn't equal. Also, if you have a better format that takes time and money into consideration, feel free to share. I personally think the format is fine and that the best team of Season 3 will win. Lastly, I've opened a new thread specifically for the Season 3 postseason stuff. So if everyone would slowly trickle over there for discussion, it'd be appreciated. I don't see a single argument there that invalidates what I said. I understand why they did it, but that doesn't change the fact that the spot allocation is not based on competitive strenght. And I also disagree with his argument that "if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough", given how close things are at the top in KR & CN - the 3rd/4th place there actually has a chance to make the final unlike ATN or CLG. Ozone finished 5th-8th before winning Spring, OMG was 4th or 5th in CN before LPL Spring. You're trying to convince me that water isn't wet.
This feels like WCG all over again hahaha.
If Final is based on competitive strength, then EU and NA shouldn't even have slots, or just 1 or 2.
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On July 12 2013 05:00 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 04:50 wei2coolman wrote:On July 12 2013 04:47 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:45 wei2coolman wrote:On July 12 2013 04:43 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:00 Letmelose wrote:On July 12 2013 03:37 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 03:27 TheYango wrote:On July 12 2013 03:23 jpak wrote:
I just don't understand the hard-on that a lot of people have about double-elimination tournaments.
More games =/= better tournament. Double Elim increases the likelihood that your top few teams are the best teams by decreasing the chance of bracket screw. It's not about more games, it's that if you have one side of the bracket really stacked, it's possible for the finals to be really underwhelming if it's the best team vs. a far weaker team because the most likely contenders got eliminated earlier in the tournament. This actually is a real problem for World's because the strength of teams actually is really skewed (regardless of who qualifies, there's going to be a clear gap in ability between the best few teams at the tournament and the worst). Unless Riot is artificially fixing the brackets (which is questionable in its own right), a bracket that puts most of the stronger teams on one side of the bracket could lead to a very anticlimactic 3-0 finals. Single elim is appropriate for tournaments where the skill level between all contenders is somewhat close, and everyone has a chance against everyone else. This is, unfortunately, probably not going to be the case at Worlds. You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB. As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much. I think the reason why people are so sensitive about the brackets, and the way qualifications are structured is because this happens to be the only tournament left that all regions participate in. This is the only chance we get to see teams such as AHQ e-Sports Club, Royal Club, Positive Energy, Azubu Taipei Snipers, Cloud9, and Team Alternate get a chance to compete at the highest level, and Riot is not giving them a fair chance. I get the feeling that people are just okay with whatever the hell Riot does as long as there's a good show, because one of the Asian teams (because Asian teams are basically all the same to them) win in the end. We wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit if there were more cross-regional competition, but Riot has pro-actively went against that direction, then have been putting forth some really questioning decisions in terms of competitive integrity this season, and I'm really starting to distrust whether their heart is in the right place here. I want the only major international competition to include the best teams in the world I would not have gotten to enjoy otherwise. I want that tournament to reward excellence, not having a lucky streak. I see the World Cup to see Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Iniesta, Robben, and Van Persie battle it out for their place in history. Of course I will root for my national side, but I'm mainly enjoying the festivities of experiencing the best players in the world play for their national colours (No, I don't complain about faceless Brazilian or Spanish footballers). Of course, the fact that the Champions League has essentially replaced the World Cup as the quintessential tournament to see who truly is the best player in the world has lifted the burden from the World Cup to capture all that magic, but as for Leauge of Legends, Season 3 World Championship is all we've got. The way things are structured right now is far from perfect, and various points needs to be addressed. It's should be our job as fans. That particular discussion was strictly about single elimination vs. double elimination. As far as spot allocation goes I'm also unhappy about it, they chose to sacrifice competition in favor of marketing. Next season there needs to be a universal calendar for regional leagues, with synchronized breaks for international tournaments. LCS is all fine and dandy but it was actually more entertaining to follow S2 when I would eagerly await the next big LAN. I think that's pretty disingenuous to say that they're sacrificing competition in favor of marketing. So you think Riot believes the 3rd place in EU & NA is better than the 3rd place in CN & KR? This is clearly a marketing decision, not a competitive one. *insert neo post* + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2013 04:35 NeoIllusions wrote:@Letmelose, I hate to single you out because you are sincerely one of my favorite posters in this subforum because you put so much effort and thought into each of your posts. You are a quality user in our community. I would wish that you move away from the "competitive integrity" phrase when expressing your disdain for the tournament layout. The difference in entries is that NA/EU get 3 and the rest get 2. As our resident Korean fan, I can see why you're pissed that not all the regions have the same number of starting entries. There's an odd number of region for number of entries to make a bracket of the appropriate size for the playoffs. I don't think it comes as a surprise why Riot has given an extra entry each to NA and EU but that hardly disputes the fact that the best teams will make it through and eventually win Worlds. So what it comes down to it is that you're unhappy that other subsequent top tier teams don't get an opportunity to attend. But that goes back to the point that the best teams will make it, if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough. The ability of each region is relative, just because the 3rd entry of Korea is better than the 3rd entry of NA is moot. It is slightly unfair to the Asian regions but it hardly deems enough to call the entire tournament a shamble and facade because the starting entries wasn't equal. Also, if you have a better format that takes time and money into consideration, feel free to share. I personally think the format is fine and that the best team of Season 3 will win. Lastly, I've opened a new thread specifically for the Season 3 postseason stuff. So if everyone would slowly trickle over there for discussion, it'd be appreciated. I don't see a single argument there that invalidates what I said. I understand why they did it, but that doesn't change the fact that the spot allocation is not based on competitive strenght. And I also disagree with his argument that "if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough", given how close things are at the top in KR & CN - the 3rd/4th place there actually has a chance to make the final unlike ATN or CLG. Ozone finished 5th-8th before winning Spring, OMG was 4th or 5th in CN before LPL Spring. You're trying to convince me that water isn't wet.
Oh; so you want an arbitrary region number based on how they "feel" the regions should be? that'd cause way more uproar than the way its set up now.
Or maybe you want SC2's WCS set up right now? lol.
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With all that support discution in the last pages i am left to wonder
am i the only one that still play lulu and think she is still extremely strong?
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On July 12 2013 03:47 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 03:45 DrunkenOne wrote:
Is there anywhere to bet on esports that allows Americans? I know we can't use pinny. I'm pretty sure the reason they don't allow americans is because it's illegal in america
There are plenty of books that allow Americans, just Pinny doesn't. 5Dimes, sportsbook.com, the greek, bodog/bovada, etc. Its just none have any esports betting as far as i can tell except for Pinny.
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On July 12 2013 05:04 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 05:00 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:50 wei2coolman wrote:On July 12 2013 04:47 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:45 wei2coolman wrote:On July 12 2013 04:43 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:00 Letmelose wrote:On July 12 2013 03:37 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 03:27 TheYango wrote:On July 12 2013 03:23 jpak wrote:
I just don't understand the hard-on that a lot of people have about double-elimination tournaments.
More games =/= better tournament. Double Elim increases the likelihood that your top few teams are the best teams by decreasing the chance of bracket screw. It's not about more games, it's that if you have one side of the bracket really stacked, it's possible for the finals to be really underwhelming if it's the best team vs. a far weaker team because the most likely contenders got eliminated earlier in the tournament. This actually is a real problem for World's because the strength of teams actually is really skewed (regardless of who qualifies, there's going to be a clear gap in ability between the best few teams at the tournament and the worst). Unless Riot is artificially fixing the brackets (which is questionable in its own right), a bracket that puts most of the stronger teams on one side of the bracket could lead to a very anticlimactic 3-0 finals. Single elim is appropriate for tournaments where the skill level between all contenders is somewhat close, and everyone has a chance against everyone else. This is, unfortunately, probably not going to be the case at Worlds. You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB. As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much. I think the reason why people are so sensitive about the brackets, and the way qualifications are structured is because this happens to be the only tournament left that all regions participate in. This is the only chance we get to see teams such as AHQ e-Sports Club, Royal Club, Positive Energy, Azubu Taipei Snipers, Cloud9, and Team Alternate get a chance to compete at the highest level, and Riot is not giving them a fair chance. I get the feeling that people are just okay with whatever the hell Riot does as long as there's a good show, because one of the Asian teams (because Asian teams are basically all the same to them) win in the end. We wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit if there were more cross-regional competition, but Riot has pro-actively went against that direction, then have been putting forth some really questioning decisions in terms of competitive integrity this season, and I'm really starting to distrust whether their heart is in the right place here. I want the only major international competition to include the best teams in the world I would not have gotten to enjoy otherwise. I want that tournament to reward excellence, not having a lucky streak. I see the World Cup to see Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Iniesta, Robben, and Van Persie battle it out for their place in history. Of course I will root for my national side, but I'm mainly enjoying the festivities of experiencing the best players in the world play for their national colours (No, I don't complain about faceless Brazilian or Spanish footballers). Of course, the fact that the Champions League has essentially replaced the World Cup as the quintessential tournament to see who truly is the best player in the world has lifted the burden from the World Cup to capture all that magic, but as for Leauge of Legends, Season 3 World Championship is all we've got. The way things are structured right now is far from perfect, and various points needs to be addressed. It's should be our job as fans. That particular discussion was strictly about single elimination vs. double elimination. As far as spot allocation goes I'm also unhappy about it, they chose to sacrifice competition in favor of marketing. Next season there needs to be a universal calendar for regional leagues, with synchronized breaks for international tournaments. LCS is all fine and dandy but it was actually more entertaining to follow S2 when I would eagerly await the next big LAN. I think that's pretty disingenuous to say that they're sacrificing competition in favor of marketing. So you think Riot believes the 3rd place in EU & NA is better than the 3rd place in CN & KR? This is clearly a marketing decision, not a competitive one. *insert neo post* + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2013 04:35 NeoIllusions wrote:@Letmelose, I hate to single you out because you are sincerely one of my favorite posters in this subforum because you put so much effort and thought into each of your posts. You are a quality user in our community. I would wish that you move away from the "competitive integrity" phrase when expressing your disdain for the tournament layout. The difference in entries is that NA/EU get 3 and the rest get 2. As our resident Korean fan, I can see why you're pissed that not all the regions have the same number of starting entries. There's an odd number of region for number of entries to make a bracket of the appropriate size for the playoffs. I don't think it comes as a surprise why Riot has given an extra entry each to NA and EU but that hardly disputes the fact that the best teams will make it through and eventually win Worlds. So what it comes down to it is that you're unhappy that other subsequent top tier teams don't get an opportunity to attend. But that goes back to the point that the best teams will make it, if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough. The ability of each region is relative, just because the 3rd entry of Korea is better than the 3rd entry of NA is moot. It is slightly unfair to the Asian regions but it hardly deems enough to call the entire tournament a shamble and facade because the starting entries wasn't equal. Also, if you have a better format that takes time and money into consideration, feel free to share. I personally think the format is fine and that the best team of Season 3 will win. Lastly, I've opened a new thread specifically for the Season 3 postseason stuff. So if everyone would slowly trickle over there for discussion, it'd be appreciated. I don't see a single argument there that invalidates what I said. I understand why they did it, but that doesn't change the fact that the spot allocation is not based on competitive strenght. And I also disagree with his argument that "if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough", given how close things are at the top in KR & CN - the 3rd/4th place there actually has a chance to make the final unlike ATN or CLG. Ozone finished 5th-8th before winning Spring, OMG was 4th or 5th in CN before LPL Spring. You're trying to convince me that water isn't wet. Oh; so you want an arbitrary region number based on how they "feel" the regions should be? that'd cause way more uproar than the way its set up now. Or maybe you want SC2's WCS set up right now? lol.
All I said is that the spot allocation is not based on a competitive factor. And you're sending me all these passive-aggressive replies about it but without even trying to deny it.
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On July 12 2013 05:12 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 05:04 wei2coolman wrote:On July 12 2013 05:00 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:50 wei2coolman wrote:On July 12 2013 04:47 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:45 wei2coolman wrote:On July 12 2013 04:43 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:00 Letmelose wrote:On July 12 2013 03:37 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 03:27 TheYango wrote:
[quote]
Double Elim increases the likelihood that your top few teams are the best teams by decreasing the chance of bracket screw. It's not about more games, it's that if you have one side of the bracket really stacked, it's possible for the finals to be really underwhelming if it's the best team vs. a far weaker team because the most likely contenders got eliminated earlier in the tournament.
This actually is a real problem for World's because the strength of teams actually is really skewed (regardless of who qualifies, there's going to be a clear gap in ability between the best few teams at the tournament and the worst). Unless Riot is artificially fixing the brackets (which is questionable in its own right), a bracket that puts most of the stronger teams on one side of the bracket could lead to a very anticlimactic 3-0 finals.
Single elim is appropriate for tournaments where the skill level between all contenders is somewhat close, and everyone has a chance against everyone else. This is, unfortunately, probably not going to be the case at Worlds. You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB. As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much. I think the reason why people are so sensitive about the brackets, and the way qualifications are structured is because this happens to be the only tournament left that all regions participate in. This is the only chance we get to see teams such as AHQ e-Sports Club, Royal Club, Positive Energy, Azubu Taipei Snipers, Cloud9, and Team Alternate get a chance to compete at the highest level, and Riot is not giving them a fair chance. I get the feeling that people are just okay with whatever the hell Riot does as long as there's a good show, because one of the Asian teams (because Asian teams are basically all the same to them) win in the end. We wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit if there were more cross-regional competition, but Riot has pro-actively went against that direction, then have been putting forth some really questioning decisions in terms of competitive integrity this season, and I'm really starting to distrust whether their heart is in the right place here. I want the only major international competition to include the best teams in the world I would not have gotten to enjoy otherwise. I want that tournament to reward excellence, not having a lucky streak. I see the World Cup to see Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Iniesta, Robben, and Van Persie battle it out for their place in history. Of course I will root for my national side, but I'm mainly enjoying the festivities of experiencing the best players in the world play for their national colours (No, I don't complain about faceless Brazilian or Spanish footballers). Of course, the fact that the Champions League has essentially replaced the World Cup as the quintessential tournament to see who truly is the best player in the world has lifted the burden from the World Cup to capture all that magic, but as for Leauge of Legends, Season 3 World Championship is all we've got. The way things are structured right now is far from perfect, and various points needs to be addressed. It's should be our job as fans. That particular discussion was strictly about single elimination vs. double elimination. As far as spot allocation goes I'm also unhappy about it, they chose to sacrifice competition in favor of marketing. Next season there needs to be a universal calendar for regional leagues, with synchronized breaks for international tournaments. LCS is all fine and dandy but it was actually more entertaining to follow S2 when I would eagerly await the next big LAN. I think that's pretty disingenuous to say that they're sacrificing competition in favor of marketing. So you think Riot believes the 3rd place in EU & NA is better than the 3rd place in CN & KR? This is clearly a marketing decision, not a competitive one. *insert neo post* + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2013 04:35 NeoIllusions wrote:@Letmelose, I hate to single you out because you are sincerely one of my favorite posters in this subforum because you put so much effort and thought into each of your posts. You are a quality user in our community. I would wish that you move away from the "competitive integrity" phrase when expressing your disdain for the tournament layout. The difference in entries is that NA/EU get 3 and the rest get 2. As our resident Korean fan, I can see why you're pissed that not all the regions have the same number of starting entries. There's an odd number of region for number of entries to make a bracket of the appropriate size for the playoffs. I don't think it comes as a surprise why Riot has given an extra entry each to NA and EU but that hardly disputes the fact that the best teams will make it through and eventually win Worlds. So what it comes down to it is that you're unhappy that other subsequent top tier teams don't get an opportunity to attend. But that goes back to the point that the best teams will make it, if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough. The ability of each region is relative, just because the 3rd entry of Korea is better than the 3rd entry of NA is moot. It is slightly unfair to the Asian regions but it hardly deems enough to call the entire tournament a shamble and facade because the starting entries wasn't equal. Also, if you have a better format that takes time and money into consideration, feel free to share. I personally think the format is fine and that the best team of Season 3 will win. Lastly, I've opened a new thread specifically for the Season 3 postseason stuff. So if everyone would slowly trickle over there for discussion, it'd be appreciated. I don't see a single argument there that invalidates what I said. I understand why they did it, but that doesn't change the fact that the spot allocation is not based on competitive strenght. And I also disagree with his argument that "if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough", given how close things are at the top in KR & CN - the 3rd/4th place there actually has a chance to make the final unlike ATN or CLG. Ozone finished 5th-8th before winning Spring, OMG was 4th or 5th in CN before LPL Spring. You're trying to convince me that water isn't wet. Oh; so you want an arbitrary region number based on how they "feel" the regions should be? that'd cause way more uproar than the way its set up now. Or maybe you want SC2's WCS set up right now? lol. All I said is that the spot allocation is not based on a competitive factor. And you're sending me all these passive-aggressive replies about it but without even trying to deny it.
I'm saying competitive factor is such a moot point. Cuz if you want to hold qualifiers for a tournament for all region teams participating; it'd essentially be the tournament.
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Netherlands2895 Posts
On July 12 2013 05:04 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 05:00 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:50 wei2coolman wrote:On July 12 2013 04:47 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:45 wei2coolman wrote:On July 12 2013 04:43 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 04:00 Letmelose wrote:On July 12 2013 03:37 Dan HH wrote:On July 12 2013 03:27 TheYango wrote:On July 12 2013 03:23 jpak wrote:
I just don't understand the hard-on that a lot of people have about double-elimination tournaments.
More games =/= better tournament. Double Elim increases the likelihood that your top few teams are the best teams by decreasing the chance of bracket screw. It's not about more games, it's that if you have one side of the bracket really stacked, it's possible for the finals to be really underwhelming if it's the best team vs. a far weaker team because the most likely contenders got eliminated earlier in the tournament. This actually is a real problem for World's because the strength of teams actually is really skewed (regardless of who qualifies, there's going to be a clear gap in ability between the best few teams at the tournament and the worst). Unless Riot is artificially fixing the brackets (which is questionable in its own right), a bracket that puts most of the stronger teams on one side of the bracket could lead to a very anticlimactic 3-0 finals. Single elim is appropriate for tournaments where the skill level between all contenders is somewhat close, and everyone has a chance against everyone else. This is, unfortunately, probably not going to be the case at Worlds. You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB. As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much. I think the reason why people are so sensitive about the brackets, and the way qualifications are structured is because this happens to be the only tournament left that all regions participate in. This is the only chance we get to see teams such as AHQ e-Sports Club, Royal Club, Positive Energy, Azubu Taipei Snipers, Cloud9, and Team Alternate get a chance to compete at the highest level, and Riot is not giving them a fair chance. I get the feeling that people are just okay with whatever the hell Riot does as long as there's a good show, because one of the Asian teams (because Asian teams are basically all the same to them) win in the end. We wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit if there were more cross-regional competition, but Riot has pro-actively went against that direction, then have been putting forth some really questioning decisions in terms of competitive integrity this season, and I'm really starting to distrust whether their heart is in the right place here. I want the only major international competition to include the best teams in the world I would not have gotten to enjoy otherwise. I want that tournament to reward excellence, not having a lucky streak. I see the World Cup to see Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Iniesta, Robben, and Van Persie battle it out for their place in history. Of course I will root for my national side, but I'm mainly enjoying the festivities of experiencing the best players in the world play for their national colours (No, I don't complain about faceless Brazilian or Spanish footballers). Of course, the fact that the Champions League has essentially replaced the World Cup as the quintessential tournament to see who truly is the best player in the world has lifted the burden from the World Cup to capture all that magic, but as for Leauge of Legends, Season 3 World Championship is all we've got. The way things are structured right now is far from perfect, and various points needs to be addressed. It's should be our job as fans. That particular discussion was strictly about single elimination vs. double elimination. As far as spot allocation goes I'm also unhappy about it, they chose to sacrifice competition in favor of marketing. Next season there needs to be a universal calendar for regional leagues, with synchronized breaks for international tournaments. LCS is all fine and dandy but it was actually more entertaining to follow S2 when I would eagerly await the next big LAN. I think that's pretty disingenuous to say that they're sacrificing competition in favor of marketing. So you think Riot believes the 3rd place in EU & NA is better than the 3rd place in CN & KR? This is clearly a marketing decision, not a competitive one. *insert neo post* + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2013 04:35 NeoIllusions wrote:@Letmelose, I hate to single you out because you are sincerely one of my favorite posters in this subforum because you put so much effort and thought into each of your posts. You are a quality user in our community. I would wish that you move away from the "competitive integrity" phrase when expressing your disdain for the tournament layout. The difference in entries is that NA/EU get 3 and the rest get 2. As our resident Korean fan, I can see why you're pissed that not all the regions have the same number of starting entries. There's an odd number of region for number of entries to make a bracket of the appropriate size for the playoffs. I don't think it comes as a surprise why Riot has given an extra entry each to NA and EU but that hardly disputes the fact that the best teams will make it through and eventually win Worlds. So what it comes down to it is that you're unhappy that other subsequent top tier teams don't get an opportunity to attend. But that goes back to the point that the best teams will make it, if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough. The ability of each region is relative, just because the 3rd entry of Korea is better than the 3rd entry of NA is moot. It is slightly unfair to the Asian regions but it hardly deems enough to call the entire tournament a shamble and facade because the starting entries wasn't equal. Also, if you have a better format that takes time and money into consideration, feel free to share. I personally think the format is fine and that the best team of Season 3 will win. Lastly, I've opened a new thread specifically for the Season 3 postseason stuff. So if everyone would slowly trickle over there for discussion, it'd be appreciated. I don't see a single argument there that invalidates what I said. I understand why they did it, but that doesn't change the fact that the spot allocation is not based on competitive strenght. And I also disagree with his argument that "if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough", given how close things are at the top in KR & CN - the 3rd/4th place there actually has a chance to make the final unlike ATN or CLG. Ozone finished 5th-8th before winning Spring, OMG was 4th or 5th in CN before LPL Spring. You're trying to convince me that water isn't wet. Oh; so you want an arbitrary region number based on how they "feel" the regions should be? that'd cause way more uproar than the way its set up now. Or maybe you want SC2's WCS set up right now? lol.
Don't be so passive aggressive please. I'm pretty sure what he (and a lot of people) want is just equal slots for every major region (KR/CN/EU/NA) which is hardly much to ask.
I'm a bit torn myself since I mostly agree with letmelose and it really is a sort of slope into non-competitive entertainment. At the same time I don't think this is as bad as it's made out to be, it won't make the tournament a 'farce' or anything, it'll just be not as fair as it should have been.
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On July 12 2013 04:58 nanospartan wrote:Q_Q my heart, those olaf level nerfs... riot pls Q_Q
That thread lol massive Jayce nerfs proposed, 2nd reply asking for further nerfs.
Honestly I don't see why they don't let current Jayce play out a bit, especially considering how long they let muramana Jayce ride. He's still good but I feel like he's managable now. At this rate he won't even be released to competition before he's nerfed a 2nd time.
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EPT
