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On July 12 2013 03:27 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 03:23 jpak wrote:
I just don't understand the hard-on that a lot of people have about double-elimination tournaments.
More games =/= better tournament. Double Elim increases the likelihood that your top few teams are the best teams by decreasing the chance of bracket screw. It's not about more games, it's that if you have one side of the bracket really stacked, it's possible for the finals to be really underwhelming if it's the best team vs. a far weaker team because the most likely contenders got eliminated earlier in the tournament. This actually is a real problem for World's because the strength of teams actually is really skewed (regardless of who qualifies, there's going to be a clear gap in ability between the best few teams at the tournament and the worst). Unless Riot is artificially fixing the brackets (which is questionable in its own right), a bracket that puts most of the stronger teams on one side of the bracket could lead to a very anticlimactic 3-0 finals. Single elim is appropriate for tournaments where the skill level between all contenders is somewhat close, and everyone has a chance against everyone else. This is, unfortunately, probably not going to be the case at Worlds.
You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB.
As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much.
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United States23745 Posts
On July 12 2013 03:29 MyNameIsAlex wrote:
mhm guys can anyone quickly (in 1 paragraph) enlighten me how the official lol tourney league is run? although im playing lol for the last 6 months im new the scene and i dont know much. I got confused with the summer splits and the playoffs etc.
I know there is an official league (LCS or something?) run by Riot and an OGN tournament (these are the only big tournaments afaik).
LCS NA and LCS EU - Ran by Riot, 8 teams in each league, no cross play, two splits (Spring, Summer),
OGN - Premier Korean tournament, 16 teams, 4 groups, group stage followed by single elimination bracket. Widely considered to be the most competitive league with the most talent
LPL - Chinese equivilant of the LCS, ran by Tencent Games
GPL - SAE equivalent of the LCS
That's just small breakdown of the "official" stuff, tournaments that are steps to qualifying to Worlds. I'm sure I'm missing something, but those are the ones that I'm familiar with.
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On July 12 2013 03:30 DarKFoRcE wrote:Im not sure whether this it is against TL rules to post this here, if it is, just remove my post please. We (my girlfriend and me) wrote a preview for tomorrows OGN matches, it would be nice if we could get some feedback  The plan is to write those regularly, as I feel like there is a big lack of english content about the korean LoL scene. link: http://esportsedge.com/?p=640
I've read your stuff before and coming from a poker background (and someone who dabbled in sports betting) I feel like you get a lot of stuff right and make it understandable which is something difficult to do.
I don't *always* agree with you're opinions, but I really don't watch enough OGN to digress in a meaningful way, and I certainly don't follow the SC2 scene close enough to disagree.
I do feel like betting OGN is a nice format, however I do believe it favours the favourites in general as to lose your bet on a favourite the underdog has to win twice, which is generally hard to do in a game with a reasonable amount of variance such as LoL. But I was always pretty mediocre at sports betting so I could easily be wrong.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 12 2013 03:37 Dan HH wrote:
You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB.
As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much.
Well that's cuz 1 game advantage in double elim is a stupid format. Just because you're doing a double elim bracket doesn't mean you have to give 1 game/1 set advantage to the WB finalist. Fresh Bo5 is better.
Statistically 1 game advantage doesn't significantly affect the likelihood of the best team winning the tournament significantly ("ensuring" the best team has a better chance in the finals is largely canceled out by the reverse case where they got upset in a Bo3 and have to overcome a huge statistical disadvantage coming back into the finals). So the better entertainment value of a fresh Bo5 outweighs this.
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On July 12 2013 03:39 Amethyst21 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 03:30 DarKFoRcE wrote:Im not sure whether this it is against TL rules to post this here, if it is, just remove my post please. We (my girlfriend and me) wrote a preview for tomorrows OGN matches, it would be nice if we could get some feedback The plan is to write those regularly, as I feel like there is a big lack of english content about the korean LoL scene. link: http://esportsedge.com/?p=640 I've read your stuff before and coming from a poker background (and someone who dabbled in sports betting) I feel like you get a lot of stuff right and make it understandable which is something difficult to do. I don't *always* agree with you're opinions, but I really don't watch enough OGN to digress in a meaningful way, and I certainly don't follow the SC2 scene close enough to disagree. I do feel like betting OGN is a nice format, however I do believe it favours the favourites in general as to lose your bet on a favourite the underdog has to win twice, which is generally hard to do in a game with a reasonable amount of variance such as LoL. But I was always pretty mediocre at sports betting so I could easily be wrong.
Yes the whole bo2 format is a bit weird with 2 way bets. Even more annoying I find the fact that there is actually a very high chance of a draw, which means that a lot of bets end up in a push.
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Is there anywhere to bet on esports that allows Americans? I know we can't use pinny.
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On July 12 2013 03:43 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 03:37 Dan HH wrote:
You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB.
As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much. Well that's cuz 1 game advantage in double elim is a stupid format. Just because you're doing a double elim bracket doesn't mean you have to give 1 game/1 set advantage to the WB finalist. Fresh Bo5 is better. Statistically 1 game advantage doesn't significantly affect the likelihood of the best team winning the tournament significantly ("ensuring" the best team has a better chance in the finals is largely canceled out by the reverse case where they got upset in a Bo3 and have to overcome a huge statistical disadvantage coming back into the finals). So the better entertainment value of a fresh Bo5 outweighs this.
I do agree but after almost 3 years of following LoL tournaments I cannot recall one single instance of double elim tournament where the WB team didn't get an advantage.
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On July 12 2013 03:31 Letmelose wrote:
There is nothing to suggest that Riot cares about competitive integrity, and if we keep letting stuff like this slip by, there's nothing to stop this entire thing being degenerated into a total joke.
What? Let it slip by? Who's letting what slip by? It's their game, and I'm sure they have a financial plan. You're making a bold statement here and it doesn't really make much sense. There is no way that they will let their game be "degenerated into a total joke." I'm sure that they are doing what they feel is best and what fits their financial budget. Maybe bumping it up to 16 teams didn't seem worth the added cost of flights, accomodations, translators, etc. involved.
Another point:
With 3 NA, EU teams that are weaker than the 2KR, 2CH, etc teams, you'll probably have a higher viewer retention throughout the tournament.
The KR and CH teams will likely eliminate the lesser teams and stay in the tournament longer. If there were more of them, it ups the chances of there being no NA/EU teams in the later stages of the tournament, leading to a loss of viewers from those regions.
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On July 12 2013 03:45 DrunkenOne wrote:
Is there anywhere to bet on esports that allows Americans? I know we can't use pinny.
I'm pretty sure the reason they don't allow americans is because it's illegal in america
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On July 12 2013 03:30 DarKFoRcE wrote:Im not sure whether this it is against TL rules to post this here, if it is, just remove my post please. We (my girlfriend and me) wrote a preview for tomorrows OGN matches, it would be nice if we could get some feedback The plan is to write those regularly, as I feel like there is a big lack of english content about the korean LoL scene. link: http://esportsedge.com/?p=640
Should join TL LoL's writing team then!
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On July 12 2013 02:30 Slusher wrote:
I like your list but I feel like Zyra is on even tier with half your list, making a top6 perhaps more relevant.
My issue with Zyra is that, to me, she strikes me more as someone who is meant to be played in mid lane as an AP champ, like you throw down 2 seeds, use her E (or whatever the small AoE spike plant attack is) to deal damage and pop the seeds and watch them deal even more damage and zone the opposing team into a bad spot. But due to the strength of other champs in mid lane (TF, Orianna, Karthus, etc.), they push her to support as a support AP carry, which sounds stupid but it ends up happening with her; you see her build 1 or 2 AP items, 1 or 2 items for team support (usually Locket and Runic if no one else on the team is) and the rest being shoes and a billion wards.
If I went to top 6, she would be my definitive #6 on the list, with 5-1 up for debate.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 12 2013 03:45 Dan HH wrote:
I do agree but after almost 3 years of following LoL tournaments I cannot recall one single instance of double elim tournament where the WB team didn't get an advantage.
Riot is at the forefront of LoL e-sports. They should be spearheading these things.
"No one else has done it that way" isn't an excuse for them, because they should be setting the bar for how other people do things.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
On July 12 2013 03:30 DarKFoRcE wrote:Im not sure whether this it is against TL rules to post this here, if it is, just remove my post please. We (my girlfriend and me) wrote a preview for tomorrows OGN matches, it would be nice if we could get some feedback The plan is to write those regularly, as I feel like there is a big lack of english content about the korean LoL scene. link: http://esportsedge.com/?p=640
Ask Neo if you could open your own thread and post there for every new article.
Jin Air Greenwings Falcons (formerly known as SKT T1 1 and ESG) came with a few roster changes from last season, and with the recent announcement of team leader, Reapered, switching from Top Lane to Jungle. For a strategical mastermind and play maker such as Reapered, the logic behind the decision on paper seemed strong, he would be able to influence the game on a bigger scale, but it was yet to be shown if it was the case once in game.
Green Wings Falcons and Stealths. Falcons are SKT T1 and ESG is Stealths.
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On July 12 2013 03:17 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 02:33 Slusher wrote:
I just think it's funny but practically speaking, from a marketing prospective a chinese player isn't worth much, so you are right. I actually disagree. LoL is MOST entrenched in NA and EU, and LEAST entrenched in China. The game has been around long enough in NA/EU and has comparatively little competition. Having 1 less NA or EU team isn't going to affect viewership that significantly. By comparison there is actually a lot of marketing gain to be made in China because the game is younger there and has more direct competition. There's more value in trying to sell the game harder in China than in NA/EU.
It's a matter of market enlargement vs market representation; 3 NA/EU teams is a more accurate market representation.
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On July 12 2013 03:47 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 03:45 DrunkenOne wrote:
Is there anywhere to bet on esports that allows Americans? I know we can't use pinny. I'm pretty sure the reason they don't allow americans is because it's illegal in america
this. i don't know of any good alternative that (illegally) allows american user.
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United States47024 Posts
LoL needs something like dota2lounge where I can bet my IP.
I would do that shit all the time.
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On July 12 2013 03:50 TheYango wrote:
LoL needs something like dota2lounge where I can bet my IP.
I would do that shit all the time.
You'd be a very very rich man; hue.
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On July 12 2013 03:37 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 03:27 TheYango wrote:On July 12 2013 03:23 jpak wrote:
I just don't understand the hard-on that a lot of people have about double-elimination tournaments.
More games =/= better tournament. Double Elim increases the likelihood that your top few teams are the best teams by decreasing the chance of bracket screw. It's not about more games, it's that if you have one side of the bracket really stacked, it's possible for the finals to be really underwhelming if it's the best team vs. a far weaker team because the most likely contenders got eliminated earlier in the tournament. This actually is a real problem for World's because the strength of teams actually is really skewed (regardless of who qualifies, there's going to be a clear gap in ability between the best few teams at the tournament and the worst). Unless Riot is artificially fixing the brackets (which is questionable in its own right), a bracket that puts most of the stronger teams on one side of the bracket could lead to a very anticlimactic 3-0 finals. Single elim is appropriate for tournaments where the skill level between all contenders is somewhat close, and everyone has a chance against everyone else. This is, unfortunately, probably not going to be the case at Worlds. You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB. As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much.
I think the reason why people are so sensitive about the brackets, and the way qualifications are structured is because this happens to be the only tournament left that all regions participate in. This is the only chance we get to see teams such as AHQ e-Sports Club, Royal Club, Positive Energy, Azubu Taipei Snipers, Cloud9, and Team Alternate get a chance to compete at the highest level, and Riot is not giving them a fair chance. I get the feeling that people are just okay with whatever the hell Riot does as long as there's a good show, because one of the Asian teams (because Asian teams are basically all the same to them) win in the end.
We wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit if there were more cross-regional competition, but Riot has pro-actively went against that direction, then have been putting forth some really questioning decisions in terms of competitive integrity this season, and I'm really starting to distrust whether their heart is in the right place here.
I want the only major international competition to include the best teams in the world I would not have gotten to enjoy otherwise. I want that tournament to reward excellence, not having a lucky streak. I see the World Cup to see Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Iniesta, Robben, and Van Persie battle it out for their place in history. Of course I will root for my national side, but I'm mainly enjoying the festivities of experiencing the best players in the world play for their national colours (No, I don't complain about faceless Brazilian or Spanish footballers). Of course, the fact that the Champions League has essentially replaced the World Cup as the quintessential tournament to see who truly is the best player in the world has lifted the burden from the World Cup to capture all that magic, but as for Leauge of Legends, Season 3 World Championship is all we've got. The way things are structured right now is far from perfect, and various points needs to be addressed. It's should be our job as fans.
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On July 12 2013 03:17 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 02:33 Slusher wrote:
I just think it's funny but practically speaking, from a marketing prospective a chinese player isn't worth much, so you are right. I actually disagree. LoL is MOST entrenched in NA and EU, and LEAST entrenched in China. The game has been around long enough in NA/EU and has comparatively little competition. Having 1 less NA or EU team isn't going to affect viewership that significantly. By comparison there is actually a lot of marketing gain to be made in China because the game is younger there and has more direct competition. There's more value in trying to sell the game harder in China than in NA/EU.
Sorry I should clarify I meant from a #Maxcpm prospective a chinese view is virtually worthless. Obviously this isn't the end all be all seeing as they will probably lose tons of money from an event standpoint either way.
On July 12 2013 03:48 Kinie wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 12 2013 02:30 Slusher wrote:
I like your list but I feel like Zyra is on even tier with half your list, making a top6 perhaps more relevant. My issue with Zyra is that, to me, she strikes me more as someone who is meant to be played in mid lane as an AP champ, like you throw down 2 seeds, use her E (or whatever the small AoE spike plant attack is) to deal damage and pop the seeds and watch them deal even more damage and zone the opposing team into a bad spot. But due to the strength of other champs in mid lane (TF, Orianna, Karthus, etc.), they push her to support as a support AP carry, which sounds stupid but it ends up happening with her; you see her build 1 or 2 AP items, 1 or 2 items for team support (usually Locket and Runic if no one else on the team is) and the rest being shoes and a billion wards. If I went to top 6, she would be my definitive #6 on the list, with 5-1 up for debate.
see my problem here is she Destroys melee supports namely Thresh and Blitz who are on the list.
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EPT
