EPTOn July 12 2013 05:19 Serelitz wrote:
Don't be so passive aggressive please. I'm pretty sure what he (and a lot of people) want is just equal slots for every major region (KR/CN/EU/NA) which is hardly much to ask.
I'm a bit torn myself since I mostly agree with letmelose and it really is a sort of slope into non-competitive entertainment. At the same time I don't think this is as bad as it's made out to be, it won't make the tournament a 'farce' or anything, it'll just be not as fair as it should have been.
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2013 05:04 wei2coolman wrote:
Oh; so you want an arbitrary region number based on how they "feel" the regions should be? that'd cause way more uproar than the way its set up now.
Or maybe you want SC2's WCS set up right now? lol.
On July 12 2013 05:00 Dan HH wrote:
I don't see a single argument there that invalidates what I said. I understand why they did it, but that doesn't change the fact that the spot allocation is not based on competitive strenght.
And I also disagree with his argument that "if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough", given how close things are at the top in KR & CN - the 3rd/4th place there actually has a chance to make the final unlike ATN or CLG. Ozone finished 5th-8th before winning Spring, OMG was 4th or 5th in CN before LPL Spring.
You're trying to convince me that water isn't wet.
On July 12 2013 04:50 wei2coolman wrote:
*insert neo post*
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 12 2013 04:47 Dan HH wrote:
So you think Riot believes the 3rd place in EU & NA is better than the 3rd place in CN & KR? This is clearly a marketing decision, not a competitive one.
On July 12 2013 04:45 wei2coolman wrote:
I think that's pretty disingenuous to say that they're sacrificing competition in favor of marketing.
On July 12 2013 04:43 Dan HH wrote:
That particular discussion was strictly about single elimination vs. double elimination. As far as spot allocation goes I'm also unhappy about it, they chose to sacrifice competition in favor of marketing.
Next season there needs to be a universal calendar for regional leagues, with synchronized breaks for international tournaments. LCS is all fine and dandy but it was actually more entertaining to follow S2 when I would eagerly await the next big LAN.
On July 12 2013 04:00 Letmelose wrote:
I think the reason why people are so sensitive about the brackets, and the way qualifications are structured is because this happens to be the only tournament left that all regions participate in. This is the only chance we get to see teams such as AHQ e-Sports Club, Royal Club, Positive Energy, Azubu Taipei Snipers, Cloud9, and Team Alternate get a chance to compete at the highest level, and Riot is not giving them a fair chance. I get the feeling that people are just okay with whatever the hell Riot does as long as there's a good show, because one of the Asian teams (because Asian teams are basically all the same to them) win in the end.
We wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit if there were more cross-regional competition, but Riot has pro-actively went against that direction, then have been putting forth some really questioning decisions in terms of competitive integrity this season, and I'm really starting to distrust whether their heart is in the right place here.
I want the only major international competition to include the best teams in the world I would not have gotten to enjoy otherwise. I want that tournament to reward excellence, not having a lucky streak. I see the World Cup to see Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Iniesta, Robben, and Van Persie battle it out for their place in history. Of course I will root for my national side, but I'm mainly enjoying the festivities of experiencing the best players in the world play for their national colours (No, I don't complain about faceless Brazilian or Spanish footballers). Of course, the fact that the Champions League has essentially replaced the World Cup as the quintessential tournament to see who truly is the best player in the world has lifted the burden from the World Cup to capture all that magic, but as for Leauge of Legends, Season 3 World Championship is all we've got. The way things are structured right now is far from perfect, and various points needs to be addressed. It's should be our job as fans.
On July 12 2013 03:37 Dan HH wrote:
You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB.
As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much.
On July 12 2013 03:27 TheYango wrote:
[quote]
Double Elim increases the likelihood that your top few teams are the best teams by decreasing the chance of bracket screw. It's not about more games, it's that if you have one side of the bracket really stacked, it's possible for the finals to be really underwhelming if it's the best team vs. a far weaker team because the most likely contenders got eliminated earlier in the tournament.
This actually is a real problem for World's because the strength of teams actually is really skewed (regardless of who qualifies, there's going to be a clear gap in ability between the best few teams at the tournament and the worst). Unless Riot is artificially fixing the brackets (which is questionable in its own right), a bracket that puts most of the stronger teams on one side of the bracket could lead to a very anticlimactic 3-0 finals.
Single elim is appropriate for tournaments where the skill level between all contenders is somewhat close, and everyone has a chance against everyone else. This is, unfortunately, probably not going to be the case at Worlds.
[quote]
Double Elim increases the likelihood that your top few teams are the best teams by decreasing the chance of bracket screw. It's not about more games, it's that if you have one side of the bracket really stacked, it's possible for the finals to be really underwhelming if it's the best team vs. a far weaker team because the most likely contenders got eliminated earlier in the tournament.
This actually is a real problem for World's because the strength of teams actually is really skewed (regardless of who qualifies, there's going to be a clear gap in ability between the best few teams at the tournament and the worst). Unless Riot is artificially fixing the brackets (which is questionable in its own right), a bracket that puts most of the stronger teams on one side of the bracket could lead to a very anticlimactic 3-0 finals.
Single elim is appropriate for tournaments where the skill level between all contenders is somewhat close, and everyone has a chance against everyone else. This is, unfortunately, probably not going to be the case at Worlds.
You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB.
As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much.
I think the reason why people are so sensitive about the brackets, and the way qualifications are structured is because this happens to be the only tournament left that all regions participate in. This is the only chance we get to see teams such as AHQ e-Sports Club, Royal Club, Positive Energy, Azubu Taipei Snipers, Cloud9, and Team Alternate get a chance to compete at the highest level, and Riot is not giving them a fair chance. I get the feeling that people are just okay with whatever the hell Riot does as long as there's a good show, because one of the Asian teams (because Asian teams are basically all the same to them) win in the end.
We wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit if there were more cross-regional competition, but Riot has pro-actively went against that direction, then have been putting forth some really questioning decisions in terms of competitive integrity this season, and I'm really starting to distrust whether their heart is in the right place here.
I want the only major international competition to include the best teams in the world I would not have gotten to enjoy otherwise. I want that tournament to reward excellence, not having a lucky streak. I see the World Cup to see Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Iniesta, Robben, and Van Persie battle it out for their place in history. Of course I will root for my national side, but I'm mainly enjoying the festivities of experiencing the best players in the world play for their national colours (No, I don't complain about faceless Brazilian or Spanish footballers). Of course, the fact that the Champions League has essentially replaced the World Cup as the quintessential tournament to see who truly is the best player in the world has lifted the burden from the World Cup to capture all that magic, but as for Leauge of Legends, Season 3 World Championship is all we've got. The way things are structured right now is far from perfect, and various points needs to be addressed. It's should be our job as fans.
That particular discussion was strictly about single elimination vs. double elimination. As far as spot allocation goes I'm also unhappy about it, they chose to sacrifice competition in favor of marketing.
Next season there needs to be a universal calendar for regional leagues, with synchronized breaks for international tournaments. LCS is all fine and dandy but it was actually more entertaining to follow S2 when I would eagerly await the next big LAN.
I think that's pretty disingenuous to say that they're sacrificing competition in favor of marketing.
So you think Riot believes the 3rd place in EU & NA is better than the 3rd place in CN & KR? This is clearly a marketing decision, not a competitive one.
*insert neo post*
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 12 2013 04:35 NeoIllusions wrote:
@Letmelose, I hate to single you out because you are sincerely one of my favorite posters in this subforum because you put so much effort and thought into each of your posts. You are a quality user in our community.
I would wish that you move away from the "competitive integrity" phrase when expressing your disdain for the tournament layout. The difference in entries is that NA/EU get 3 and the rest get 2. As our resident Korean fan, I can see why you're pissed that not all the regions have the same number of starting entries. There's an odd number of region for number of entries to make a bracket of the appropriate size for the playoffs. I don't think it comes as a surprise why Riot has given an extra entry each to NA and EU but that hardly disputes the fact that the best teams will make it through and eventually win Worlds.
So what it comes down to it is that you're unhappy that other subsequent top tier teams don't get an opportunity to attend. But that goes back to the point that the best teams will make it, if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough. The ability of each region is relative, just because the 3rd entry of Korea is better than the 3rd entry of NA is moot. It is slightly unfair to the Asian regions but it hardly deems enough to call the entire tournament a shamble and facade because the starting entries wasn't equal.
Also, if you have a better format that takes time and money into consideration, feel free to share.
I personally think the format is fine and that the best team of Season 3 will win.
Lastly, I've opened a new thread specifically for the Season 3 postseason stuff. So if everyone would slowly trickle over there for discussion, it'd be appreciated.
@Letmelose, I hate to single you out because you are sincerely one of my favorite posters in this subforum because you put so much effort and thought into each of your posts. You are a quality user in our community.
I would wish that you move away from the "competitive integrity" phrase when expressing your disdain for the tournament layout. The difference in entries is that NA/EU get 3 and the rest get 2. As our resident Korean fan, I can see why you're pissed that not all the regions have the same number of starting entries. There's an odd number of region for number of entries to make a bracket of the appropriate size for the playoffs. I don't think it comes as a surprise why Riot has given an extra entry each to NA and EU but that hardly disputes the fact that the best teams will make it through and eventually win Worlds.
So what it comes down to it is that you're unhappy that other subsequent top tier teams don't get an opportunity to attend. But that goes back to the point that the best teams will make it, if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough. The ability of each region is relative, just because the 3rd entry of Korea is better than the 3rd entry of NA is moot. It is slightly unfair to the Asian regions but it hardly deems enough to call the entire tournament a shamble and facade because the starting entries wasn't equal.
Also, if you have a better format that takes time and money into consideration, feel free to share.
I personally think the format is fine and that the best team of Season 3 will win.
Lastly, I've opened a new thread specifically for the Season 3 postseason stuff. So if everyone would slowly trickle over there for discussion, it'd be appreciated.
I don't see a single argument there that invalidates what I said. I understand why they did it, but that doesn't change the fact that the spot allocation is not based on competitive strenght.
And I also disagree with his argument that "if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough", given how close things are at the top in KR & CN - the 3rd/4th place there actually has a chance to make the final unlike ATN or CLG. Ozone finished 5th-8th before winning Spring, OMG was 4th or 5th in CN before LPL Spring.
You're trying to convince me that water isn't wet.
Oh; so you want an arbitrary region number based on how they "feel" the regions should be? that'd cause way more uproar than the way its set up now.
Or maybe you want SC2's WCS set up right now? lol.
Don't be so passive aggressive please. I'm pretty sure what he (and a lot of people) want is just equal slots for every major region (KR/CN/EU/NA) which is hardly much to ask.
I'm a bit torn myself since I mostly agree with letmelose and it really is a sort of slope into non-competitive entertainment. At the same time I don't think this is as bad as it's made out to be, it won't make the tournament a 'farce' or anything, it'll just be not as fair as it should have been.
At some level every tournament is just a 'showmatch,' because its goal is to find a winner on a very limited timescale. The most accurate representations of team skill would involve league or round-robin formats, but that's much different in terms of entertainment value.
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