why the fuck arent they touching zac, thresh, shen tf, malphite or other gay champ but have to destroy jayce, i seriously have no confidence in riot doing it right or having clue how to balance this game given their track record. Everything they do and say ends up working opposite they think
On July 12 2013 02:21 Mauzel wrote: Okay but if you're playing a hard engage comp (soloq favorite) that's basically what everyone is doing. (WRT waiting around to engage/ be engaged on)
I enjoy playing support.
Also lux support: zyra is all around better in that role.
It might be a style thing, but I prefer Lux to Zyra and I'm much better with the former. If I had to make a brief analysis, I'd say Lux brings much more damage while Zyra is better at zone control.
I have always felt fairly underwhelmed with Zyra as a support, and even as an AP mid, though I'd have to really grind games with her to figure out why I dislike her so much (and in the process I'd probably learn to like her, lol).
Lux is like nidalee with a bind. She is bad past early lane phase without some serious AP.
Zyra, on the other hand, has a root, slow, and her ult is amazing.
Lux has a bind and a slow, her ult is also amazing.
You guys should play some more feederstick support.
I got banned for that on my old account, so I haven't played it recently. I played Fiddle support with AD quints max Q and rushed Zhonyas. Was fun.
On July 12 2013 02:21 Mauzel wrote: Okay but if you're playing a hard engage comp (soloq favorite) that's basically what everyone is doing. (WRT waiting around to engage/ be engaged on)
I enjoy playing support.
Also lux support: zyra is all around better in that role.
It might be a style thing, but I prefer Lux to Zyra and I'm much better with the former. If I had to make a brief analysis, I'd say Lux brings much more damage while Zyra is better at zone control.
I have always felt fairly underwhelmed with Zyra as a support, and even as an AP mid, though I'd have to really grind games with her to figure out why I dislike her so much (and in the process I'd probably learn to like her, lol).
Lux is like nidalee with a bind. She is bad past early lane phase without some serious AP.
Zyra, on the other hand, has a root, slow, and her ult is amazing.
Lux has a bind and a slow, her ult is also amazing.
Her ult is pure shit without AP, and provides 0 utility.
Lux is just straight up not a support character.
Comparing Lux and Zyra, Zyra has far more utility. Zyra's snare is just better, and her ult is good AoE CC / counterinitiation and useful at 0 AP. Her plants scale off of levels and also provide utility through slows and blocking shots and scouting bushes etc.
Lux's ult is useless past early game without AP. Her snare is good but Zyra's is better. Her slow doesn't bring much as a slow and is probably levelled last as support so doesn't do any damage, and her shield is best with AP.
If you want to take Lux as a support, Zyra is just better at everything Lux is going to do.
Lux is just not going to be a support without some changes, she's an AP mid and pretty much nothing else.
Zyra was designed as an AP mid in mind as well. Lux has such stupidly high AP ratios and low cooldowns you only need a moderate amount of AP to kill squishies.
On July 12 2013 06:43 Serelitz wrote: Honestly a lot of people are ignoring some of Xypherous' posts in that thread which basically says his W is going to be very low CD at high ranks.
Gotta say though, for champions that are 'broken competitively but fine solo Q' I'm kinda pissed they're completely revamping Jayce but not TF. I really liked playing Jayce and his 'reworked' kit doesn't excite me very much.
that's the cost of the fact they've never really gotten better at releasing champions that are a net benefit to gameplay. I think the realization they were going to completely screw up the game in the long term is what prompted them to finally move from a ridiculous champion per two weeks release schedule to what they have now, which seems to be "as long as it takes". Look at how many guys they've got in the rework pipeline atm, they've made so so so many mistakes with champion releases and there's just no choice but to piss people in the process of fixing them.
Oh I agree, I´m just sad that they´re removing a lot of the stuff I like about Jayce like the ´place acceleration gate closer by to improve E/Q combo. Honestly if they'd just nerf muramana dmg Jayce would still have his niche without his incredibly broken damage mid/lategame while keeping him fun.
From the changes I read in that thread new Jayce doesn't seem fun at all. Back to top quinn it is.
On July 12 2013 07:22 Scip wrote: Jayce is on a whole different level than all the champs you mentioned. TF and Malph especially. Jayce is way more dominant than any of those.
TF has been banned more and longer in competitive play while having a higher winrate in yolo Q. Not incomparable but TF is way, way more of an offender than Jayce.
On July 12 2013 03:45 DrunkenOne wrote: Is there anywhere to bet on esports that allows Americans? I know we can't use pinny.
I'm pretty sure the reason they don't allow americans is because it's illegal in america
There are plenty of books that allow Americans, just Pinny doesn't. 5Dimes, sportsbook.com, the greek, bodog/bovada, etc. Its just none have any esports betting as far as i can tell except for Pinny.
IANAL but you should check whether it's actually legal to use online sports books from the US. ofc it might be something like online piracy where lots of people don't really care about the legality.
On July 12 2013 03:27 TheYango wrote: [quote] Double Elim increases the likelihood that your top few teams are the best teams by decreasing the chance of bracket screw. It's not about more games, it's that if you have one side of the bracket really stacked, it's possible for the finals to be really underwhelming if it's the best team vs. a far weaker team because the most likely contenders got eliminated earlier in the tournament.
This actually is a real problem for World's because the strength of teams actually is really skewed (regardless of who qualifies, there's going to be a clear gap in ability between the best few teams at the tournament and the worst). Unless Riot is artificially fixing the brackets (which is questionable in its own right), a bracket that puts most of the stronger teams on one side of the bracket could lead to a very anticlimactic 3-0 finals.
Single elim is appropriate for tournaments where the skill level between all contenders is somewhat close, and everyone has a chance against everyone else. This is, unfortunately, probably not going to be the case at Worlds.
You're worrying for nothing, 1st place from KR & CN are already on opposite sides of the bracket. And even if the best 2 teams happen to play eachother in the semis, that doesn't mean the final will be bad. You wanna know what's anticlimactic? A final that starts with both a score and moral advantage for the team coming from WB.
As a sports follower, I've always hated double elim in big esports tournaments. Imagine if the World Cup was double elim and you got Spain starting the final at 1-0, that would suck so much.
I think the reason why people are so sensitive about the brackets, and the way qualifications are structured is because this happens to be the only tournament left that all regions participate in. This is the only chance we get to see teams such as AHQ e-Sports Club, Royal Club, Positive Energy, Azubu Taipei Snipers, Cloud9, and Team Alternate get a chance to compete at the highest level, and Riot is not giving them a fair chance. I get the feeling that people are just okay with whatever the hell Riot does as long as there's a good show, because one of the Asian teams (because Asian teams are basically all the same to them) win in the end.
We wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit if there were more cross-regional competition, but Riot has pro-actively went against that direction, then have been putting forth some really questioning decisions in terms of competitive integrity this season, and I'm really starting to distrust whether their heart is in the right place here.
I want the only major international competition to include the best teams in the world I would not have gotten to enjoy otherwise. I want that tournament to reward excellence, not having a lucky streak. I see the World Cup to see Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Iniesta, Robben, and Van Persie battle it out for their place in history. Of course I will root for my national side, but I'm mainly enjoying the festivities of experiencing the best players in the world play for their national colours (No, I don't complain about faceless Brazilian or Spanish footballers). Of course, the fact that the Champions League has essentially replaced the World Cup as the quintessential tournament to see who truly is the best player in the world has lifted the burden from the World Cup to capture all that magic, but as for Leauge of Legends, Season 3 World Championship is all we've got. The way things are structured right now is far from perfect, and various points needs to be addressed. It's should be our job as fans.
That particular discussion was strictly about single elimination vs. double elimination. As far as spot allocation goes I'm also unhappy about it, they chose to sacrifice competition in favor of marketing.
Next season there needs to be a universal calendar for regional leagues, with synchronized breaks for international tournaments. LCS is all fine and dandy but it was actually more entertaining to follow S2 when I would eagerly await the next big LAN.
I think that's pretty disingenuous to say that they're sacrificing competition in favor of marketing.
So you think Riot believes the 3rd place in EU & NA is better than the 3rd place in CN & KR? This is clearly a marketing decision, not a competitive one.
On July 12 2013 04:35 NeoIllusions wrote: @Letmelose, I hate to single you out because you are sincerely one of my favorite posters in this subforum because you put so much effort and thought into each of your posts. You are a quality user in our community.
I would wish that you move away from the "competitive integrity" phrase when expressing your disdain for the tournament layout. The difference in entries is that NA/EU get 3 and the rest get 2. As our resident Korean fan, I can see why you're pissed that not all the regions have the same number of starting entries. There's an odd number of region for number of entries to make a bracket of the appropriate size for the playoffs. I don't think it comes as a surprise why Riot has given an extra entry each to NA and EU but that hardly disputes the fact that the best teams will make it through and eventually win Worlds.
So what it comes down to it is that you're unhappy that other subsequent top tier teams don't get an opportunity to attend. But that goes back to the point that the best teams will make it, if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough. The ability of each region is relative, just because the 3rd entry of Korea is better than the 3rd entry of NA is moot. It is slightly unfair to the Asian regions but it hardly deems enough to call the entire tournament a shamble and facade because the starting entries wasn't equal.
Also, if you have a better format that takes time and money into consideration, feel free to share. I personally think the format is fine and that the best team of Season 3 will win.
Lastly, I've opened a new thread specifically for the Season 3 postseason stuff. So if everyone would slowly trickle over there for discussion, it'd be appreciated.
I don't see a single argument there that invalidates what I said. I understand why they did it, but that doesn't change the fact that the spot allocation is not based on competitive strenght.
And I also disagree with his argument that "if you don't make the cutoff, then you weren't good enough", given how close things are at the top in KR & CN - the 3rd/4th place there actually has a chance to make the final unlike ATN or CLG. Ozone finished 5th-8th before winning Spring, OMG was 4th or 5th in CN before LPL Spring.
You're trying to convince me that water isn't wet.
Oh; so you want an arbitrary region number based on how they "feel" the regions should be? that'd cause way more uproar than the way its set up now.
Or maybe you want SC2's WCS set up right now? lol.
Don't be so passive aggressive please. I'm pretty sure what he (and a lot of people) want is just equal slots for every major region (KR/CN/EU/NA) which is hardly much to ask.
I'm a bit torn myself since I mostly agree with letmelose and it really is a sort of slope into non-competitive entertainment. At the same time I don't think this is as bad as it's made out to be, it won't make the tournament a 'farce' or anything, it'll just be not as fair as it should have been.
The slippery slope argument is dumb, if anything Riot is slowly giving competitiveness more weight in slot-assignment than before (via all-stars)
On July 12 2013 05:08 SagaZ wrote: With all that support discution in the last pages i am left to wonder am i the only one that still play lulu and think she is still extremely strong?
On July 12 2013 07:18 kongoline wrote: why the fuck arent they touching zac, thresh, shen tf, malphite or other gay champ but have to destroy jayce, i seriously have no confidence in riot doing it right or having clue how to balance this game given their track record. Everything they do and say ends up working opposite they think
The Jayce Changes are because he does too much, thus they don't have confidence in balancing him as is. Its like the AP Yi change.
As for Thresh, he isn't the problem, the fact that every other support has been nerfed so hard, and the Ward-slavery is.
On July 12 2013 07:18 kongoline wrote: why the fuck arent they touching zac, thresh, shen tf, malphite or other gay champ but have to destroy jayce, i seriously have no confidence in riot doing it right or having clue how to balance this game given their track record. Everything they do and say ends up working opposite they think
The Jayce Changes are because he does too much, thus they don't have confidence in balancing him as is. Its like the AP Yi change.
As for Thresh, he isn't the problem, the fact that every other support has been nerfed so hard, and the Ward-slavery is.
Yeah so do you buff every support to Thresh level or nerf him and then buff supports as a whole? Thresh is flat out broken to be honest.
As for lulu, I think she's still good but Nami kinda does her job better if you can land the wave/bubble well. Only advantage lulu has over nami is early wave pushing which isn't that wanted in solo Q.
Being banned longer doesn't mean that much when TF got a not insignificant nerf not too long ago. I don't watch competitive matches that much, but in LCS Europe+NA Jayce is a more prominent ban/pick than TF is.
On July 12 2013 07:12 FSKi wrote: Jayce is still a pretty good champion. The tear changes make his power spike pop up around 5-10 minutes after it used to, barring a fed jayce of course. I believe what riot tried to address is the manamune power spike and the ability to force teams off turrets in the mid game. Judging by the Korean metagame though, Karthus has already seemingly taken Jayce's place in this role, as now it's requiem to drive them off their turret defense.
do you have any specific examples of karthus being used in this role? to my knowledge karthus is neither a contested pick nor a champion around whom siege comps are built
On July 12 2013 02:21 Mauzel wrote: Okay but if you're playing a hard engage comp (soloq favorite) that's basically what everyone is doing. (WRT waiting around to engage/ be engaged on)
I enjoy playing support.
Also lux support: zyra is all around better in that role.
It might be a style thing, but I prefer Lux to Zyra and I'm much better with the former. If I had to make a brief analysis, I'd say Lux brings much more damage while Zyra is better at zone control.
I have always felt fairly underwhelmed with Zyra as a support, and even as an AP mid, though I'd have to really grind games with her to figure out why I dislike her so much (and in the process I'd probably learn to like her, lol).
Lux is like nidalee with a bind. She is bad past early lane phase without some serious AP.
Zyra, on the other hand, has a root, slow, and her ult is amazing.
Lux has a bind and a slow, her ult is also amazing.
You guys should play some more feederstick support.
I got banned for that on my old account, so I haven't played it recently. I played Fiddle support with AD quints max Q and rushed Zhonyas. Was fun.
Well you shouldn't be having a Zhonya at all as Fiddle support...
On July 12 2013 07:39 Scip wrote: Being banned longer doesn't mean that much when TF got a not insignificant nerf not too long ago. I don't watch competitive matches that much, but in LCS Europe+NA Jayce is a more prominent ban/pick than TF is.
TF was 100% pick/ban in OGN spring and only 1 game not picked/banned in OGN summer qualifiers so far. Ambition is 13-0 with TF. Jayce became an issue in LCS EU after he got popularized in korea by Ambition's teammate Flame.
Jayce is arguably just as bad now but TF has been at the very least at the same level for a much longer period of time, and he's gotten only 1 patch of slight nerfs instead of the Olaf treatment that they're preparing for Jayce.
On July 12 2013 07:18 kongoline wrote: why the fuck arent they touching zac, thresh, shen tf, malphite or other gay champ but have to destroy jayce, i seriously have no confidence in riot doing it right or having clue how to balance this game given their track record. Everything they do and say ends up working opposite they think
The Jayce Changes are because he does too much, thus they don't have confidence in balancing him as is. Its like the AP Yi change.
As for Thresh, he isn't the problem, the fact that every other support has been nerfed so hard, and the Ward-slavery is.
Yeah so do you buff every support to Thresh level or nerf him and then buff supports as a whole? Thresh is flat out broken to be honest.
As for lulu, I think she's still good but Nami kinda does her job better if you can land the wave/bubble well. Only advantage lulu has over nami is early wave pushing which isn't that wanted in solo Q.
lulu does more damage up front, tankier and better at dueling during laning. all i do when i play her is run hp quints and beat the shit out of them level 1 and so on
On July 12 2013 07:39 Scip wrote: Being banned longer doesn't mean that much when TF got a not insignificant nerf not too long ago. I don't watch competitive matches that much, but in LCS Europe+NA Jayce is a more prominent ban/pick than TF is.
TF was 100% pick/ban in OGN spring and only 1 game not picked/banned in OGN summer qualifiers so far. Ambition is 13-0 with TF. Jayce became an issue in LCS EU after he got popularized in korea by Ambition's teammate Flame.
Jayce is arguably just as bad now but TF has been at the very least at the same level for a much longer period of time, and he's gotten only 1 patch of slight nerfs instead of the Olaf treatment that they're preparing for Jayce.
Jayce brings lane dominance with slightly less presence. He's still a monstrous roamer because mid game, a single shockblast combo against squishier lanes is already enough for the other laner(s) to follow up in a lot of cases.
There could be the fact that TF is just strong regionally.
Isn't there something like in DotA, where Western teams are very good on Wisp but Chinese teams aren't and they just ban it out if they play against a Western team?
On July 12 2013 07:18 kongoline wrote: why the fuck arent they touching zac, thresh, shen tf, malphite or other gay champ but have to destroy jayce, i seriously have no confidence in riot doing it right or having clue how to balance this game given their track record. Everything they do and say ends up working opposite they think
The Jayce Changes are because he does too much, thus they don't have confidence in balancing him as is. Its like the AP Yi change.
As for Thresh, he isn't the problem, the fact that every other support has been nerfed so hard, and the Ward-slavery is.
Yeah so do you buff every support to Thresh level or nerf him and then buff supports as a whole? Thresh is flat out broken to be honest.
As for lulu, I think she's still good but Nami kinda does her job better if you can land the wave/bubble well. Only advantage lulu has over nami is early wave pushing which isn't that wanted in solo Q.
I would say Thresh is strong as a support now, but I would think that the "average" strength should be about what Sona is now, because a couple supports are too weak: Taric, Lenoa, Ali in particular.
TF is definitely a regionally strong pick. I've never seen an EU TF play that hero to a level of mastery achieved in Korea and China, but that might also just speak to how much more straightforward Jayce is as a champ (which is potentially nerf/rework-worthy in its own right).
Really if there's an outstanding problem in champ design at the moment, it's mana cost/mana management creep, where every champ either is manaless, has trivial mana costs, has nontrivial mana costs that get covered by Tear anyway (and is ok getting Tear because Tear is so good), or is not played.
On July 12 2013 08:29 TheYango wrote: TF is definitely a regionally strong pick. I've never seen an EU TF play that hero to a level of mastery achieved in Korea and China, but that might also just speak to how much more straightforward Jayce is as a champ (which is potentially nerf/rework-worthy in its own right).
Really if there's an outstanding problem in champ design at the moment, it's mana cost/mana management creep, where every champ either is manaless, has trivial mana costs, has nontrivial mana costs that get covered by Tear anyway (and is ok getting Tear because Tear is so good), or is not played.
I think you hit the nail on the head with that 2nd part. The last champion release that was seriously gated by mana was Nami and that's only because she can't build Tear.
The tear nerfs were a good way to approach it but didn't even go far enough. I'm still hoping that they nerf muramana because of how ridiculous it's damage is.
EPT
