On July 27 2013 06:22 Requizen wrote: That's, hm what's the word, not meta mindset, but something that we're used to. Why do all lanes need ganks? Sure, if you play a farm heavy jungler, and the enemy plays a gank heavy jungler, he'll impact lanes more, but if your lanes play safe and avoid getting ganked as much as possible while you get super farmed for free, then I think that's fine and interesting too.
Because fundamentally the gameplay you described is "if the other 4 players in the game play safe and make sacrifices so that I can farm, I can carry the game".
While I agree that such gameplay could exist, I don't agree that Riot would ever consider that gameplay healthy. Even hard carry ADCs don't really do that anymore, and you could argue that the overall shift in S3 was away from ADCs playing that way.
And I disagree with Riot on this. While I love the company, I think their design team is very much enforcing the meta with only very little room for variation. The only real "shifts" we've seen lately (if you can call them that) is 2v1 laning becoming a big thing and counter-jungling returning. I guess double AD comps are becoming a thing now too, but even that's a pretty small change.
Not that I overly mind, I'm not raging at night that 1-1-1-2 is the meta, but I just would be interested to see variation every now and again.
If you want a melee 1st position hero to be viable, a lot of other things have to change before you get to revamping the jungle.
On July 27 2013 06:22 Requizen wrote: That's, hm what's the word, not meta mindset, but something that we're used to. Why do all lanes need ganks? Sure, if you play a farm heavy jungler, and the enemy plays a gank heavy jungler, he'll impact lanes more, but if your lanes play safe and avoid getting ganked as much as possible while you get super farmed for free, then I think that's fine and interesting too.
Because fundamentally the gameplay you described is "if the other 4 players in the game play safe and make sacrifices so that I can farm, I can carry the game".
While I agree that such gameplay could exist, I don't agree that Riot would ever consider that gameplay healthy. Even hard carry ADCs don't really do that anymore, and you could argue that the overall shift in S3 was away from ADCs playing that way.
That's how it worked when Shyv was first introduced.
No? Shyv at the start of season 2 had huge presence from the fact that clearing the enemy's jungle completely hamstrung their presence.
It wasn't at all expecting your laners to protect you. You protected your laners by setting their jungler far back enough to guarantee that you could always win a 2v2 countergank.
Is a priority 1 melee carry what Riot is working on in regards to the melee carry itemization changes they keep mentioning? I just keep hearing they are working on changing the nature of melee carries, but never really hear any actual changes or what the overall intent behind them is.
On July 27 2013 10:21 vvSiegvv wrote: Is a priority 1 melee carry what Riot is working on in regards to the melee carry itemization changes they keep mentioning? I just keep hearing they are working on changing the nature of melee carries, but never really hear any actual changes or what the overall intent behind them is.
I don't think the high damage Melle Carry is going to be a thing. Basically, if you had a Teamfight Tryndamere (i.e. a similar champ that was as good at teamfighting as he is at splitpushing) said champion would have to be so incredibly weak to make up for the lategame power, that Riot would never make such a champion.
Yeah I agree it seems highly unlikely, but that leaves the question of what is the desired effect of the melee itemization changes? For instance if trynd isn't going to be carrying, do they want trynd to fall in line with bruisers or would he be more of a high damage assassin? Or are we going to see him just being built purely as a 1v1 split pushing duelist. I guess I'm just not sure exactly what the changes coming are trying to fix.
On July 27 2013 10:21 vvSiegvv wrote: Is a priority 1 melee carry what Riot is working on in regards to the melee carry itemization changes they keep mentioning? I just keep hearing they are working on changing the nature of melee carries, but never really hear any actual changes or what the overall intent behind them is.
They made Spellbreaker, which has must-built stats for adc and also gives tenacity. I think they want to make melee carry somewhat can move swiftly in the middle of the battle without being affected by cc too much. For example Spellbreaker+PD alone already give 50% crit, 50% as, 5% ms, tenacity and move through units. If you count Hydra which gives you 12% ls, and +75 damage and cleave, that's a pretty scary adcs.
On July 27 2013 10:21 vvSiegvv wrote: Is a priority 1 melee carry what Riot is working on in regards to the melee carry itemization changes they keep mentioning? I just keep hearing they are working on changing the nature of melee carries, but never really hear any actual changes or what the overall intent behind them is.
They made Spellbreaker, which has must-built stats for adc and also gives tenacity. I think they want to make melee carry somewhat can move swiftly in the middle of the battle without being affected by cc too much. For example Spellbreaker+PD alone already give 50% crit, 50% as, 5% ms, tenacity and move through units. If you count Hydra which gives you 12% ls, and +75 damage and cleave, that's a pretty scary adcs.
Imo, glass cannon melee carry will never be a thing outside of AD assassins. I'll be extremely surprised if Riot ever makes it so that's possible. Melee carries that aren't assassins will have to build tanky due to necessity.
If they make AD yi a thing again I'm pretty sure everyones going to remember just how frustrating backdoor yi is. Sometimes a champion gets nerfed into oblivion for a reason. Splitpushing is one thing but when a champion can straight up backdoor...
On July 27 2013 04:06 PrinceXizor wrote: Just to let everyone know lissandra has 200 (+40) mana and 5(+.4) MP5. Which puts her as the worst mid in the game for regen and the third worst for mana pool.
She also has a passive too. Assuming you toss out a spell right as it comes off cooldown, and derp around and not hit ANYTHING, your passive provides 13.8repeating to 27.7repeating MP5.
On July 27 2013 10:21 vvSiegvv wrote: Is a priority 1 melee carry what Riot is working on in regards to the melee carry itemization changes they keep mentioning? I just keep hearing they are working on changing the nature of melee carries, but never really hear any actual changes or what the overall intent behind them is.
I don't think the high damage Melle Carry is going to be a thing. Basically, if you had a Teamfight Tryndamere (i.e. a similar champ that was as good at teamfighting as he is at splitpushing) said champion would have to be so incredibly weak to make up for the lategame power, that Riot would never make such a champion.
On July 27 2013 06:22 Requizen wrote: That's, hm what's the word, not meta mindset, but something that we're used to. Why do all lanes need ganks? Sure, if you play a farm heavy jungler, and the enemy plays a gank heavy jungler, he'll impact lanes more, but if your lanes play safe and avoid getting ganked as much as possible while you get super farmed for free, then I think that's fine and interesting too.
Because fundamentally the gameplay you described is "if the other 4 players in the game play safe and make sacrifices so that I can farm, I can carry the game".
While I agree that such gameplay could exist, I don't agree that Riot would ever consider that gameplay healthy. Even hard carry ADCs don't really do that anymore, and you could argue that the overall shift in S3 was away from ADCs playing that way.
And I disagree with Riot on this. While I love the company, I think their design team is very much enforcing the meta with only very little room for variation. The only real "shifts" we've seen lately (if you can call them that) is 2v1 laning becoming a big thing and counter-jungling returning. I guess double AD comps are becoming a thing now too, but even that's a pretty small change.
Not that I overly mind, I'm not raging at night that 1-1-1-2 is the meta, but I just would be interested to see variation every now and again.
If you want a melee 1st position hero to be viable, a lot of other things have to change before you get to revamping the jungle.
On July 27 2013 06:22 Requizen wrote: That's, hm what's the word, not meta mindset, but something that we're used to. Why do all lanes need ganks? Sure, if you play a farm heavy jungler, and the enemy plays a gank heavy jungler, he'll impact lanes more, but if your lanes play safe and avoid getting ganked as much as possible while you get super farmed for free, then I think that's fine and interesting too.
Because fundamentally the gameplay you described is "if the other 4 players in the game play safe and make sacrifices so that I can farm, I can carry the game".
While I agree that such gameplay could exist, I don't agree that Riot would ever consider that gameplay healthy. Even hard carry ADCs don't really do that anymore, and you could argue that the overall shift in S3 was away from ADCs playing that way.
That's how it worked when Shyv was first introduced.
No? Shyv at the start of season 2 had huge presence from the fact that clearing the enemy's jungle completely hamstrung their presence.
It wasn't at all expecting your laners to protect you. You protected your laners by setting their jungler far back enough to guarantee that you could always win a 2v2 countergank.
I was always under the impression during shyv's domination time, it was mostly, farm up like a beast, and then show up randomly at teamfight doing a billion damage to everyone.
On July 27 2013 06:22 Requizen wrote: That's, hm what's the word, not meta mindset, but something that we're used to. Why do all lanes need ganks? Sure, if you play a farm heavy jungler, and the enemy plays a gank heavy jungler, he'll impact lanes more, but if your lanes play safe and avoid getting ganked as much as possible while you get super farmed for free, then I think that's fine and interesting too.
Because fundamentally the gameplay you described is "if the other 4 players in the game play safe and make sacrifices so that I can farm, I can carry the game".
While I agree that such gameplay could exist, I don't agree that Riot would ever consider that gameplay healthy. Even hard carry ADCs don't really do that anymore, and you could argue that the overall shift in S3 was away from ADCs playing that way.
And I disagree with Riot on this. While I love the company, I think their design team is very much enforcing the meta with only very little room for variation. The only real "shifts" we've seen lately (if you can call them that) is 2v1 laning becoming a big thing and counter-jungling returning. I guess double AD comps are becoming a thing now too, but even that's a pretty small change.
Not that I overly mind, I'm not raging at night that 1-1-1-2 is the meta, but I just would be interested to see variation every now and again.
If you want a melee 1st position hero to be viable, a lot of other things have to change before you get to revamping the jungle.
On July 27 2013 06:41 wei2coolman wrote:
On July 27 2013 06:27 TheYango wrote:
On July 27 2013 06:22 Requizen wrote: That's, hm what's the word, not meta mindset, but something that we're used to. Why do all lanes need ganks? Sure, if you play a farm heavy jungler, and the enemy plays a gank heavy jungler, he'll impact lanes more, but if your lanes play safe and avoid getting ganked as much as possible while you get super farmed for free, then I think that's fine and interesting too.
Because fundamentally the gameplay you described is "if the other 4 players in the game play safe and make sacrifices so that I can farm, I can carry the game".
While I agree that such gameplay could exist, I don't agree that Riot would ever consider that gameplay healthy. Even hard carry ADCs don't really do that anymore, and you could argue that the overall shift in S3 was away from ADCs playing that way.
That's how it worked when Shyv was first introduced.
No? Shyv at the start of season 2 had huge presence from the fact that clearing the enemy's jungle completely hamstrung their presence.
It wasn't at all expecting your laners to protect you. You protected your laners by setting their jungler far back enough to guarantee that you could always win a 2v2 countergank.
I was always under the impression during shyv's domination time, it was mostly, farm up like a beast, and then show up randomly at teamfight doing a billion damage to everyone.
Nah, it was much more like, instead of ganking lanes, you ganked their jungler. Alternately, if their jungler ever showed in a lane and you weren't nearby to countergank, you would clean out 2 of his jungle camps. You would incidentally get more farm than other junglers, but that wasn't the point. The point was that you have really good base dueling stats and pretty much nobody can go toe to toe with you early, ESPECIALLY if you run exhaust instead of flash.
Jungle routes wouldn't go straight from blue to red at the time, so it was pretty common to show up at their red and either kill them or force them back. If laners (from both sides) showed up, you were stronger anyway.
On July 27 2013 10:21 vvSiegvv wrote: Is a priority 1 melee carry what Riot is working on in regards to the melee carry itemization changes they keep mentioning? I just keep hearing they are working on changing the nature of melee carries, but never really hear any actual changes or what the overall intent behind them is.
I don't think the high damage Melle Carry is going to be a thing. Basically, if you had a Teamfight Tryndamere (i.e. a similar champ that was as good at teamfighting as he is at splitpushing) said champion would have to be so incredibly weak to make up for the lategame power, that Riot would never make such a champion.
You mean other than Poppy? haha
Honestly, I don't think I have ever seen the mythical Poppy lategame.
Maybe like Pre-Vayne (the first patch I kinda recall) there was one. But IDK.
On July 27 2013 10:21 vvSiegvv wrote: Is a priority 1 melee carry what Riot is working on in regards to the melee carry itemization changes they keep mentioning? I just keep hearing they are working on changing the nature of melee carries, but never really hear any actual changes or what the overall intent behind them is.
I don't think the high damage Melle Carry is going to be a thing. Basically, if you had a Teamfight Tryndamere (i.e. a similar champ that was as good at teamfighting as he is at splitpushing) said champion would have to be so incredibly weak to make up for the lategame power, that Riot would never make such a champion.
You mean other than Poppy? haha
Honestly, I don't think I have ever seen the mythical Poppy lategame.
Maybe like Pre-Vayne (the first patch I kinda recall) there was one. But IDK.
On July 27 2013 10:21 vvSiegvv wrote: Is a priority 1 melee carry what Riot is working on in regards to the melee carry itemization changes they keep mentioning? I just keep hearing they are working on changing the nature of melee carries, but never really hear any actual changes or what the overall intent behind them is.
I don't think the high damage Melle Carry is going to be a thing. Basically, if you had a Teamfight Tryndamere (i.e. a similar champ that was as good at teamfighting as he is at splitpushing) said champion would have to be so incredibly weak to make up for the lategame power, that Riot would never make such a champion.
You mean other than Poppy? haha
Honestly, I don't think I have ever seen the mythical Poppy lategame.
Maybe like Pre-Vayne (the first patch I kinda recall) there was one. But IDK.
You must not have seen Zekent play Poppy on stream.
On July 27 2013 10:15 vvSiegvv wrote: So what's the "standard" idea for blue ez build now? I backed off from it for awhile and played it in a game earlier where I realized I wasn't sure what to get anymore. I did dblade > tear> elder > manamune > gauntlet > LW > BT and it just seemed like with the elder in there it took me too long to ramp up and be effective. I know blue ez has a long build up time but this time it seemed longer then what I remembered.
The standard in Asia (now it's carried over to NA a bit) is Tear -> Manamune, Sheen, IBG, cdr boots, LW, Bork, and then BT or IE
Earlier tear is to compensate for nerfs on tear stacking, can get a vamp scepter anytime after tear if you feel the need. Just remember that it delays whatever your next item is by 800g.
EPT
