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On July 27 2013 06:11 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 05:51 Requizen wrote:On July 27 2013 05:45 Slayer91 wrote:On July 27 2013 05:17 Requizen wrote:On July 27 2013 05:08 Slayer91 wrote:On July 27 2013 04:56 Requizen wrote:On July 27 2013 04:53 TheYango wrote:
In competitive play, the choice already exists--it just isn't made due to champ selection and convention. In solo queue, even if the choice existed, you wouldn't get to farm a jungler because no top laner would listen to you if you told him to be poor and carry the Aegis while you got to farm. He'd tell you to go fuck off. That's when you mute and carry the game as Jungle Trynd  and have your jungler pick someone who can buy aegis and be a bit underfarmed and still be useful in teamfights right? what about he leaves his lane to go help gank while you catch up on farm by farming top? sounds good so far? Why not make him jungle and YOU go top lane ooo I thought the licky face was to indicate the fact that I was not making a serious post. Next time I will use this face + Show Spoiler + point stands yo Well, it's dependent like anything else. You don't pick Soraka and Vayne together, you don't pick Akali when their team is un-diveable, you don't pick a carry jungle when your top isn't a tank who can deal with it. you missed the point, theres no reason to play this way when it makes more sense to pick the farm heavy guy top and the guy who doenst ened much farm adn has more cc to gank jungle
That's, hm what's the word, not meta mindset, but something that we're used to. Why do all lanes need ganks? Sure, if you play a farm heavy jungler, and the enemy plays a gank heavy jungler, he'll impact lanes more, but if your lanes play safe and avoid getting ganked as much as possible while you get super farmed for free, then I think that's fine and interesting too.
Maybe it's just personal preference, but I would be fine being a laner and having a jungler who never ganked but had the opportunity (with hypothetical changes) to be farmed and scary later into the game. Then, when I get ganked, but remain safe under tower and get some farm while their jungler is just wasting time and experience, I'll still be fairly effective while my jungler gets nice and big. He can even show up to countergank with his gold advantage and double Doran's while the babysitter jungle has Boots and a Spirit Stone.
I mean, I would of course doubt its effectiveness in solo queue because people suck at playing safe and avoiding ganks, but that's more what I was imagining.
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League of Legends Balance plan: Nerf everything. No matter what, things must be nerfed. Also, change the value of wards all the time.
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On July 27 2013 05:59 XilDarkz wrote:was this a joke? ...
No, it's not a joke. Teamfighting as Elise is extremely hard. It's easy to do well with her early, but the later the game drags out the more landing long range stuns in crucial situations matters, along with split second decision making.
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On July 27 2013 06:23 Plansix wrote:
League of Legends Balance plan: Nerf everything. No matter what, things must be nerfed. Also, change the value of wards all the time.
honestly they need to just look at how dota solved the same problems they are having--by looking about 4 years ago. League is having balance conundrums that Dota solved before league was released. Its actually ridiculously stupid.
edit: Just trying to make this post seem less troll-y...
I think that things like the death penalty (gold), reliable gold and jungle of dota solve the 'problems' that Riot has created for themselves
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United States47024 Posts
On July 27 2013 06:22 Requizen wrote:
That's, hm what's the word, not meta mindset, but something that we're used to. Why do all lanes need ganks? Sure, if you play a farm heavy jungler, and the enemy plays a gank heavy jungler, he'll impact lanes more, but if your lanes play safe and avoid getting ganked as much as possible while you get super farmed for free, then I think that's fine and interesting too.
Because fundamentally the gameplay you described is "if the other 4 players in the game play safe and make sacrifices so that I can farm, I can carry the game".
While I agree that such gameplay could exist, I don't agree that Riot would ever consider that gameplay healthy. Even hard carry ADCs don't really do that anymore, and you could argue that the overall shift in S3 was away from ADCs playing that way.
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United States15536 Posts
I didn't stream it, but I did get Silver 3. Most nailbiting game I've ever played. Thank god for R comps.
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On July 27 2013 06:27 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 06:22 Requizen wrote:
That's, hm what's the word, not meta mindset, but something that we're used to. Why do all lanes need ganks? Sure, if you play a farm heavy jungler, and the enemy plays a gank heavy jungler, he'll impact lanes more, but if your lanes play safe and avoid getting ganked as much as possible while you get super farmed for free, then I think that's fine and interesting too. Because fundamentally the gameplay you described is "if the other 4 players in the game play safe and make sacrifices so that I can farm, I can carry the game". While I agree that such gameplay could exist, I don't agree that Riot would ever consider that gameplay healthy. Even hard carry ADCs don't really do that anymore, and you could argue that the overall shift in S3 was away from ADCs playing that way.
The way that you make the gameplay of a super farm heavy jungler interesting is by increasing the impetus to stop him from farming inside his own jungle. Probably by making serious counterjungling open to more than just Nunu and Shaco or whatever.
I would really like to see farming the jungle become more of a conscious choice for junglers. It still seems to me like farming jungle camps is that thing you do if there's nothing else to do. I want a strategic decision between farming the jungle and applying pressure/counterpressure in lanes.
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On July 27 2013 06:23 Plansix wrote:
League of Legends Balance plan: Nerf everything. No matter what, things must be nerfed. Also, change the value of wards all the time.
not really. People just hate nerfs. If you compare the popular reaction to that big buff patch 6-8 months ago, it's almost night and day to today's reaction with most nerf patches.
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On July 27 2013 06:33 nojitosunrise wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 06:23 Plansix wrote:
League of Legends Balance plan: Nerf everything. No matter what, things must be nerfed. Also, change the value of wards all the time. not really. People just hate nerfs. If you compare the popular reaction to that big buff patch 6-8 months ago, it's almost night and day to today's reaction with most nerf patches.
It is more a response to how everything gets balanced in the last year. I've been playing a lot of dota and I don't really like that every signle thing that people have a problem with gets nerfed. But that is just me. I also think the drafting system is kind garbage, but I get they can't change it part way through the season.
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On July 27 2013 06:27 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 06:22 Requizen wrote:
That's, hm what's the word, not meta mindset, but something that we're used to. Why do all lanes need ganks? Sure, if you play a farm heavy jungler, and the enemy plays a gank heavy jungler, he'll impact lanes more, but if your lanes play safe and avoid getting ganked as much as possible while you get super farmed for free, then I think that's fine and interesting too. Because fundamentally the gameplay you described is "if the other 4 players in the game play safe and make sacrifices so that I can farm, I can carry the game". While I agree that such gameplay could exist, I don't agree that Riot would ever consider that gameplay healthy. Even hard carry ADCs don't really do that anymore, and you could argue that the overall shift in S3 was away from ADCs playing that way.
And I disagree with Riot on this. While I love the company, I think their design team is very much enforcing the meta with only very little room for variation. The only real "shifts" we've seen lately (if you can call them that) is 2v1 laning becoming a big thing and counter-jungling returning. I guess double AD comps are becoming a thing now too, but even that's a pretty small change.
Not that I overly mind, I'm not raging at night that 1-1-1-2 is the meta, but I just would be interested to see variation every now and again.
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On July 27 2013 06:27 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 06:22 Requizen wrote:
That's, hm what's the word, not meta mindset, but something that we're used to. Why do all lanes need ganks? Sure, if you play a farm heavy jungler, and the enemy plays a gank heavy jungler, he'll impact lanes more, but if your lanes play safe and avoid getting ganked as much as possible while you get super farmed for free, then I think that's fine and interesting too. Because fundamentally the gameplay you described is "if the other 4 players in the game play safe and make sacrifices so that I can farm, I can carry the game". While I agree that such gameplay could exist, I don't agree that Riot would ever consider that gameplay healthy. Even hard carry ADCs don't really do that anymore, and you could argue that the overall shift in S3 was away from ADCs playing that way.
That's how it worked when Shyv was first introduced.
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On July 27 2013 06:32 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 06:27 TheYango wrote:On July 27 2013 06:22 Requizen wrote:
That's, hm what's the word, not meta mindset, but something that we're used to. Why do all lanes need ganks? Sure, if you play a farm heavy jungler, and the enemy plays a gank heavy jungler, he'll impact lanes more, but if your lanes play safe and avoid getting ganked as much as possible while you get super farmed for free, then I think that's fine and interesting too. Because fundamentally the gameplay you described is "if the other 4 players in the game play safe and make sacrifices so that I can farm, I can carry the game". While I agree that such gameplay could exist, I don't agree that Riot would ever consider that gameplay healthy. Even hard carry ADCs don't really do that anymore, and you could argue that the overall shift in S3 was away from ADCs playing that way. The way that you make the gameplay of a super farm heavy jungler interesting is by increasing the impetus to stop him from farming inside his own jungle. Probably by making serious counterjungling open to more than just Nunu and Shaco or whatever. I would really like to see farming the jungle become more of a conscious choice for junglers. It still seems to me like farming jungle camps is that thing you do if there's nothing else to do. I want a strategic decision between farming the jungle and applying pressure/counterpressure in lanes.
I think as a Jungler, it would be cool to have the idea to see the enemy jungle ganking bot and think "oh this means I can go to his top jungle and get $bLiNg$" instead of "MUST GANK AND OR COUNTERGANK AT ALL POINTS IN GAME"
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On July 27 2013 06:22 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 06:11 Slayer91 wrote:On July 27 2013 05:51 Requizen wrote:On July 27 2013 05:45 Slayer91 wrote:On July 27 2013 05:17 Requizen wrote:On July 27 2013 05:08 Slayer91 wrote:On July 27 2013 04:56 Requizen wrote:On July 27 2013 04:53 TheYango wrote:
In competitive play, the choice already exists--it just isn't made due to champ selection and convention. In solo queue, even if the choice existed, you wouldn't get to farm a jungler because no top laner would listen to you if you told him to be poor and carry the Aegis while you got to farm. He'd tell you to go fuck off. That's when you mute and carry the game as Jungle Trynd and have your jungler pick someone who can buy aegis and be a bit underfarmed and still be useful in teamfights right? what about he leaves his lane to go help gank while you catch up on farm by farming top? sounds good so far? Why not make him jungle and YOU go top lane ooo I thought the licky face was to indicate the fact that I was not making a serious post. Next time I will use this face + Show Spoiler + point stands yo Well, it's dependent like anything else. You don't pick Soraka and Vayne together, you don't pick Akali when their team is un-diveable, you don't pick a carry jungle when your top isn't a tank who can deal with it. you missed the point, theres no reason to play this way when it makes more sense to pick the farm heavy guy top and the guy who doenst ened much farm adn has more cc to gank jungle That's, hm what's the word, not meta mindset, but something that we're used to. Why do all lanes need ganks? Sure, if you play a farm heavy jungler, and the enemy plays a gank heavy jungler, he'll impact lanes more, but if your lanes play safe and avoid getting ganked as much as possible while you get super farmed for free, then I think that's fine and interesting too. Maybe it's just personal preference, but I would be fine being a laner and having a jungler who never ganked but had the opportunity (with hypothetical changes) to be farmed and scary later into the game. Then, when I get ganked, but remain safe under tower and get some farm while their jungler is just wasting time and experience, I'll still be fairly effective while my jungler gets nice and big. He can even show up to countergank with his gold advantage and double Doran's while the babysitter jungle has Boots and a Spirit Stone. I mean, I would of course doubt its effectiveness in solo queue because people suck at playing safe and avoiding ganks, but that's more what I was imagining.
thats not how jungling works, if everyone is clearly playing safe and warding a lot, the other jungler can farm a lot too, sure theres some casees he will try to gank out of habit but mostly a good jungler ganks based on opportunity, and having no sighting of enemy jungler and no opportunity for fast ganks will likely mean he's going to farm a lot too.
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Part of the way to change things would be to give smite combat viability. It decreases the incentive to give farm to someone with only 1 combat summoner because, hey, he's already gimped why give farm to someone that does not have the flexibility of summoners to help them carry?
Of course that's if you agree this is the problem. Also, I don't know how I would give smite combat viability either without making laners want to take it, and I also don't know what that combat viability would be either, because it seems most of them are covered already.
Maybe bring back surge or something.
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On July 27 2013 06:25 XilDarkz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 06:23 Plansix wrote:
League of Legends Balance plan: Nerf everything. No matter what, things must be nerfed. Also, change the value of wards all the time. honestly they need to just look at how dota solved the same problems they are having--by looking about 4 years ago. League is having balance conundrums that Dota solved before league was released. Its actually ridiculously stupid. edit: Just trying to make this post seem less troll-y... I think that things like the death penalty (gold), reliable gold and jungle of dota solve the 'problems' that Riot has created for themselves
The thing with DotA is that they readily accept these things that Riot wants to eliminate.
In DotA pubs it's not unusual for Furion to sit in the jungle and farm every lane and never teamfight... and win the game even though they're down 4-19.
It's not unusual for AM or Alch or some other hard carry to farm all day forcing their team to play 4v5 until they come back 6-slotted and soloing the entire team.
And that's fine, that's DotA, but that's not what they want LoL to be, so that is not a solution for them.
On July 27 2013 06:22 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 06:11 Slayer91 wrote:On July 27 2013 05:51 Requizen wrote:On July 27 2013 05:45 Slayer91 wrote:On July 27 2013 05:17 Requizen wrote:On July 27 2013 05:08 Slayer91 wrote:On July 27 2013 04:56 Requizen wrote:On July 27 2013 04:53 TheYango wrote:
In competitive play, the choice already exists--it just isn't made due to champ selection and convention. In solo queue, even if the choice existed, you wouldn't get to farm a jungler because no top laner would listen to you if you told him to be poor and carry the Aegis while you got to farm. He'd tell you to go fuck off. That's when you mute and carry the game as Jungle Trynd and have your jungler pick someone who can buy aegis and be a bit underfarmed and still be useful in teamfights right? what about he leaves his lane to go help gank while you catch up on farm by farming top? sounds good so far? Why not make him jungle and YOU go top lane ooo I thought the licky face was to indicate the fact that I was not making a serious post. Next time I will use this face + Show Spoiler + point stands yo Well, it's dependent like anything else. You don't pick Soraka and Vayne together, you don't pick Akali when their team is un-diveable, you don't pick a carry jungle when your top isn't a tank who can deal with it. you missed the point, theres no reason to play this way when it makes more sense to pick the farm heavy guy top and the guy who doenst ened much farm adn has more cc to gank jungle That's, hm what's the word, not meta mindset, but something that we're used to. Why do all lanes need ganks? Sure, if you play a farm heavy jungler, and the enemy plays a gank heavy jungler, he'll impact lanes more, but if your lanes play safe and avoid getting ganked as much as possible while you get super farmed for free, then I think that's fine and interesting too. Maybe it's just personal preference, but I would be fine being a laner and having a jungler who never ganked but had the opportunity (with hypothetical changes) to be farmed and scary later into the game. Then, when I get ganked, but remain safe under tower and get some farm while their jungler is just wasting time and experience, I'll still be fairly effective while my jungler gets nice and big. He can even show up to countergank with his gold advantage and double Doran's while the babysitter jungle has Boots and a Spirit Stone. I mean, I would of course doubt its effectiveness in solo queue because people suck at playing safe and avoiding ganks, but that's more what I was imagining.
It's not about avoiding ganks but as champions get more powerful, their ability to stay alive without support diminishes and they can get dived.
The success of a gank is not always a kill. If laning phase runs late, and the ganker comes in and takes off only 1/4 life, that's still significant because it is much easier to all in at level 8-11 than level 3-5. Any of these things can lead to objectives being taken, which then makes it harder to hold towers, and so on and so forth.
The point is that you can't expect people to play ultra safe, because that in itself has a big disadvantage.
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On July 27 2013 05:21 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 04:38 NeoIllusions wrote:On July 27 2013 04:20 Ketara wrote:
So, TROLLS has a request for you guys.
In the next 3 hours, figure out the "best" Blue Corki build.
Trinity Force or Iceborne?
Black Cleaver or Last Whisper?
BotRK yes or no?
Lets do some theorycrafting, I don't know how these magical blue builds work. Gogo! Two main Corki builds TheYango and I have discussed are: - Blade, Blade, SotEL, IBG - Blade, Blade, Sheen, Bruta, BC, IBG Two Doran's Blades is standard but you can obviously skip them if you wind up ahead. Add in Vamp Scepter if you need the sustain, it's always about adapting to your lane and then game overall. afaik, I don't think we've discussed BotRK as an option on Corki. It's somewhat of an awkward buildup for him. You guys really think IBG is better than Trinity on Corki? Does he need the slow on his autos that much? If you aren't getting BotRK, what's your alternative?
I think IBG is better for the pure AD caster Corki with cdr boots + BT + LW(or BC), but I really don't know a good build order that can pull it all together.
Those builds from yango/neo seem to be on the right track, since I've been trying muramana recently and getting stomped every time (at best tear lets you farm with rockets in lane, but you'll be pretty much worse off in any combat situation). Also I have never felt so vulnerable to silence as Corki before going blue/mana-heavy builds.
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On July 27 2013 07:06 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 06:25 XilDarkz wrote:On July 27 2013 06:23 Plansix wrote:
League of Legends Balance plan: Nerf everything. No matter what, things must be nerfed. Also, change the value of wards all the time. honestly they need to just look at how dota solved the same problems they are having--by looking about 4 years ago. League is having balance conundrums that Dota solved before league was released. Its actually ridiculously stupid. edit: Just trying to make this post seem less troll-y... I think that things like the death penalty (gold), reliable gold and jungle of dota solve the 'problems' that Riot has created for themselves The thing with DotA is that they readily accept these things that Riot wants to eliminate. In DotA pubs it's not unusual for Furion to sit in the jungle and farm every lane and never teamfight... and win the game even though they're down 4-19. It's not unusual for AM or Alch or some other hard carry to farm all day forcing their team to play 4v5 until they come back 6-slotted and soloing the entire team. And that's fine, that's DotA, but that's not what they want LoL to be, so that is not a solution for them.
Yea, but, those are alternate strategies. In this game, there's... oh wait, no alternate strategies. You sacrifice breadth of gameplay while simultaneously sacrificing depth (removal of game mechanics)...
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I think a big problem with this discussion is that a large portion of people want to control the "meta" (I really hate this term to describe what is actually simply "prevailing strategy"), while another portion understands that the meta is an ever-changing phenomenon whereby a strategy comes along that counters the prevailing one, and in turn opens up the opportunity for a new strategy to be formed that will allow counter play to the new, prevailing strategy.
It was mentioned, I think by Req, that "Oh, this 2v1 thing came along and that wasn't really a big thing, and I guess now there's the double-adc comp coming out, but that's a small change too..." But think about that for a minute... We've gone from (and yes, I'm generalizing here for the sake of illustrating a point) Top Bruiser/Mid AP/Jung AP or Utility Bruiser/Supp+Adc Bot, a strong tactic, to seeing 2v1, turret rush lanes to counter that strategy, which has opened up the ability to have a second Adc in the mid lane. If this 2Adc strategy takes a firm grasp on the meta, we'll then see team compositions that are designed specifically to counter that which will add more variation once again.
The meta evolves, and will continue to do so whether Riot puts their hand into the pot and stirs things up a bit, or whether they let it simmer and stew and slowly bring all the flavour together on its own.
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On July 27 2013 07:06 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 06:25 XilDarkz wrote:On July 27 2013 06:23 Plansix wrote:
League of Legends Balance plan: Nerf everything. No matter what, things must be nerfed. Also, change the value of wards all the time. honestly they need to just look at how dota solved the same problems they are having--by looking about 4 years ago. League is having balance conundrums that Dota solved before league was released. Its actually ridiculously stupid. edit: Just trying to make this post seem less troll-y... I think that things like the death penalty (gold), reliable gold and jungle of dota solve the 'problems' that Riot has created for themselves The thing with DotA is that they readily accept these things that Riot wants to eliminate. In DotA pubs it's not unusual for Furion to sit in the jungle and farm every lane and never teamfight... and win the game even though they're down 4-19. It's not unusual for AM or Alch or some other hard carry to farm all day forcing their team to play 4v5 until they come back 6-slotted and soloing the entire team. And that's fine, that's DotA, but that's not what they want LoL to be, so that is not a solution for them. Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 06:22 Requizen wrote:On July 27 2013 06:11 Slayer91 wrote:On July 27 2013 05:51 Requizen wrote:On July 27 2013 05:45 Slayer91 wrote:On July 27 2013 05:17 Requizen wrote:On July 27 2013 05:08 Slayer91 wrote:On July 27 2013 04:56 Requizen wrote:On July 27 2013 04:53 TheYango wrote:
In competitive play, the choice already exists--it just isn't made due to champ selection and convention. In solo queue, even if the choice existed, you wouldn't get to farm a jungler because no top laner would listen to you if you told him to be poor and carry the Aegis while you got to farm. He'd tell you to go fuck off. That's when you mute and carry the game as Jungle Trynd and have your jungler pick someone who can buy aegis and be a bit underfarmed and still be useful in teamfights right? what about he leaves his lane to go help gank while you catch up on farm by farming top? sounds good so far? Why not make him jungle and YOU go top lane ooo I thought the licky face was to indicate the fact that I was not making a serious post. Next time I will use this face + Show Spoiler + point stands yo Well, it's dependent like anything else. You don't pick Soraka and Vayne together, you don't pick Akali when their team is un-diveable, you don't pick a carry jungle when your top isn't a tank who can deal with it. you missed the point, theres no reason to play this way when it makes more sense to pick the farm heavy guy top and the guy who doenst ened much farm adn has more cc to gank jungle That's, hm what's the word, not meta mindset, but something that we're used to. Why do all lanes need ganks? Sure, if you play a farm heavy jungler, and the enemy plays a gank heavy jungler, he'll impact lanes more, but if your lanes play safe and avoid getting ganked as much as possible while you get super farmed for free, then I think that's fine and interesting too. Maybe it's just personal preference, but I would be fine being a laner and having a jungler who never ganked but had the opportunity (with hypothetical changes) to be farmed and scary later into the game. Then, when I get ganked, but remain safe under tower and get some farm while their jungler is just wasting time and experience, I'll still be fairly effective while my jungler gets nice and big. He can even show up to countergank with his gold advantage and double Doran's while the babysitter jungle has Boots and a Spirit Stone. I mean, I would of course doubt its effectiveness in solo queue because people suck at playing safe and avoiding ganks, but that's more what I was imagining. It's not about avoiding ganks but as champions get more powerful, their ability to stay alive without support diminishes and they can get dived. The success of a gank is not always a kill. If laning phase runs late, and the ganker comes in and takes off only 1/4 life, that's still significant because it is much easier to all in at level 8-11 than level 3-5. Any of these things can lead to objectives being taken, which then makes it harder to hold towers, and so on and so forth. The point is that you can't expect people to play ultra safe, because that in itself has a big disadvantage.
But that is only because the reward to the team as a whole of you playing safe is practically nonexistent, because farming the jungle is of dubious value. People act like laners taking jungle camps is a reason to not give the camps more value. That is a reason to ask whether cleaning out a lane in 10 seconds should be viable. IMO if you are not Karthus or Anivia you shouldn't be able to do that.
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