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On July 03 2013 10:50 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 10:44 Slusher wrote:On July 03 2013 10:34 Ryuu314 wrote:
HURICAN PLS
imo, that item is so trash. the extra shots do reduced damage and also doesn't apply crits so there's 0 reason to ever get it on an AD carry. Only time it does anything is if you're doing some janky on-hit build, but those builds are sub-optimal in like 99% of situations.
In a similar vein, I also think Tiamat/Hydra is pretty terrible item but people buy that a lot so iunno... um Hydra is super good because it's a final tier lifesteal item that does not have a BF sword build path, also the active is super strong on people with damage modifiers like Talon and Zed, I think the item is actually super good especially with split pushing being as strong as it is right now, it functions really well on champions with attack resets like wukong or champions who want to do a lot of damage in burst like current style of Rengar I actually think the item is highly underrated at the moment. but yes I agree 100% on hurricane about the only good use of it I can think of is split push Teemo, not having to use mushrooms to apply pressure would allow you to set a lot more mines, but it would also take up an ap slot so it's iffy at best. Except you can get Bork for more lifesteal than Hydra. You also get the active, which is better than the Hydra active. The damage output from Bork is (i think) on par with the damage on Hydra. So much of the gold value of Hydra is wasted on the regen and passive, which honestly isn't very good. I can see why you'd get it for champs like Talon/Zed who have damage modifiers, but honestly even in that situation I think it's sub-optimal. The active is basically an aoe auto attack and it doesn't animation cancel has a reasonably long animation so when using it in a combo using the active is literally the same thing as auto-attacking one more time.
It depends on how much you'll be autoing, what your autoattack speed is, and what kind of AD ratios you have.
Also, according to the wiki, it does reset your AA timer. A quick test proves this to be~ TRUE!
It's just that because Crescent has a small cast time unless your attackspeed is reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally slow you don't notice it.
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On July 03 2013 10:57 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 10:50 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 10:44 Slusher wrote:On July 03 2013 10:34 Ryuu314 wrote:
HURICAN PLS
imo, that item is so trash. the extra shots do reduced damage and also doesn't apply crits so there's 0 reason to ever get it on an AD carry. Only time it does anything is if you're doing some janky on-hit build, but those builds are sub-optimal in like 99% of situations.
In a similar vein, I also think Tiamat/Hydra is pretty terrible item but people buy that a lot so iunno... um Hydra is super good because it's a final tier lifesteal item that does not have a BF sword build path, also the active is super strong on people with damage modifiers like Talon and Zed, I think the item is actually super good especially with split pushing being as strong as it is right now, it functions really well on champions with attack resets like wukong or champions who want to do a lot of damage in burst like current style of Rengar I actually think the item is highly underrated at the moment. but yes I agree 100% on hurricane about the only good use of it I can think of is split push Teemo, not having to use mushrooms to apply pressure would allow you to set a lot more mines, but it would also take up an ap slot so it's iffy at best. Except you can get Bork for more lifesteal than Hydra. You also get the active, which is better than the Hydra active. The damage output from Bork is (i think) on par with the damage on Hydra. So much of the gold value of Hydra is wasted on the regen and passive, which honestly isn't very good. I can see why you'd get it for champs like Talon/Zed who have damage modifiers, but honestly even in that situation I think it's sub-optimal. The active is basically an aoe auto attack and it doesn't animation cancel has a reasonably long animation so when using it in a combo using the active is literally the same thing as auto-attacking one more time. In these burst combo situations I'm quite positive you're better off just building a BT. building a BF sword top is haaaaard man.
And building a Tiamat instead is better? Tiamat is 350 more gold for 5 less AD. Sure you get the health regen, but health regen as a stat is generally not all that great. On top of that, you get the cleave passive, which honestly can be more detrimental than anything.
Also, how is building a BF sword hard? Every single champion that you'd ever get Tiamat/Hydra on has an absurdly easy time flash-farming at will. Zed has QWE and Talon has W. And regardless if you build Tiamat or BF, you're still investing a ton of gold into non-defensive stats.On July 03 2013 11:02 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 10:50 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 10:44 Slusher wrote:On July 03 2013 10:34 Ryuu314 wrote:
HURICAN PLS
imo, that item is so trash. the extra shots do reduced damage and also doesn't apply crits so there's 0 reason to ever get it on an AD carry. Only time it does anything is if you're doing some janky on-hit build, but those builds are sub-optimal in like 99% of situations.
In a similar vein, I also think Tiamat/Hydra is pretty terrible item but people buy that a lot so iunno... um Hydra is super good because it's a final tier lifesteal item that does not have a BF sword build path, also the active is super strong on people with damage modifiers like Talon and Zed, I think the item is actually super good especially with split pushing being as strong as it is right now, it functions really well on champions with attack resets like wukong or champions who want to do a lot of damage in burst like current style of Rengar I actually think the item is highly underrated at the moment. but yes I agree 100% on hurricane about the only good use of it I can think of is split push Teemo, not having to use mushrooms to apply pressure would allow you to set a lot more mines, but it would also take up an ap slot so it's iffy at best. Except you can get Bork for more lifesteal than Hydra. You also get the active, which is better than the Hydra active. The damage output from Bork is (i think) on par with the damage on Hydra. So much of the gold value of Hydra is wasted on the regen and passive, which honestly isn't very good. I can see why you'd get it for champs like Talon/Zed who have damage modifiers, but honestly even in that situation I think it's sub-optimal. The active is basically an aoe auto attack and it doesn't animation cancel has a reasonably long animation so when using it in a combo using the active is literally the same thing as auto-attacking one more time. It depends on how much you'll be autoing, what your autoattack speed is, and what kind of AD ratios you have. Also, according to the wiki, it does reset your AA timer. A quick test proves this to be~ TRUE! It's just that because Crescent has a small cast time unless your attackspeed is reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally slow you don't notice it.
The cast time is essentially equal to your auto attack animation time (attack speed). So it gives you an extra attack. But then you're spending 2.5k gold for 1 extra auto attack in your burst combo, which tbh I don't think is worth it.
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BT also needs to be restacked when you die
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On July 03 2013 11:04 xes wrote:
BT also needs to be restacked when you die
Except an unstacked BT gives you 70 AD and 12% lifesteal compared to the 75 AD and 12% lifesteal of Hydra. Go kill 1+ waves and BT now gives more stats than Hydra. You can also stack with jungle camps too. BT losing stacks is honestly not that big a deal ever since they changed the stack amount from 40 to 30. The only time BT losing stacks is an issue is if you're stacking BTs.
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I actually hadn't thought about the auto attack pushback before it's a really good point.
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I guess the question is whether or not it's worth it to spend 2.5k gold to get one extra auto attack off in a burst combo. Because in every other aspect, Hydra is inferior to Bork and/or BT.
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Hydra heals/lifesteals in its AoE. It's massive regen in clumps.
Of course, it requires clumping, but you can heal extremely quickly off a minion wave.
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Keep in mind that you can Hydra active to cancel other animations, like Renekton W. In these cases you lose less time from the active.
Tiamat might be slightly more gold than BF sword, but it also isn't a 1 stop shop. A lot of champions start with bead.
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On July 03 2013 11:10 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Hydra heals/lifesteals in its AoE. It's massive regen in clumps.
Of course, it requires clumping, but you can heal extremely quickly off a minion wave.
Hydra uses half your lifesteal when applying the aoe damage/lifesteal. The difference in terms of how fast you heal between having a BT and a Hydra is minute.On July 03 2013 11:12 Gahlo wrote:
Keep in mind that you can Hydra active to cancel other animations, like Renekton W. In these cases you lose less time from the active.
Tiamat might be slightly more gold than BF sword, but it also isn't a 1 stop shop. A lot of champions start with bead.
Even if you subtract the cost of 1 bead, it's still more expensive than BF sword for less stats. If you're rushing Tiamat in lane, well...you're not gonna have a good time. Most champions that want Tiamat will rush a Bork first anyways. By the time they finish Bork and start working on big item #2 they have 0 problems farming up 1.5k gold. Also, building Tiamat piecemeal is also very slot inefficient. That will take up 4 slots at most and that means you only have 1 free slot for pots/wards (assuming you didn't skip boots).
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Hydra is so bad, i've seen people get it on Riven, Lee and alike and everytime I'm wondering why. Not like you'll ever benefit from that massive aoe-potential the item has. BT is much more smooth and gives stats that are more reason-able than hydra which basicly needs the enemy team to pile up in order to be effective.
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Hydra is amazing on Lee. It lets you clear waves so fast by comboing it with his e, not to mention the increased burst on his overall combo. It's not bad on Renekton either but you usually only have room for brutalizer/black cleaver.
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On July 03 2013 11:23 Sponkz wrote:
Hydra is so bad, i've seen people get it on Riven, Lee and alike and everytime I'm wondering why. Not like you'll ever benefit from that massive aoe-potential the item has. BT is much more smooth and gives stats that are more reason-able than hydra which basicly needs the enemy team to pile up in order to be effective.
I've been told Hydra interacts with Lee Sin's and Riven's passives. Not sure exactly in what way but I'll test it after this ARAM.
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ok I can explain a bit,
my most common champion for Hydra is Wu Kong, I usually open bead pots ward start, farm up enough for pickaxe or more if I am lucky and get a gank or the person is an idiot and I just kill them. After I get the Pickaxe I make a vamp first before completing the hydra so I have the sustain to force reset the wave over and over. Once I finish the Hydra I usually ask the Jungle to come top and help me force tower after that I just roam and let him and go for ganks objective plays. either forcing him to roam or take tower.
If he takes my tower now I have a lot of leeway for pushing out, I can wait till it's only 1 wave from my tower and push it out then go back to roaming, normally on Wu you have to expend far to much mana to push out quickly. With Hydra auto > q > active clears the wave really quickly.
Granted sometimes you just lose lane and this does not all pan out this way, but thats the risk of running most non competitive viable champions.
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On July 03 2013 11:29 silencefc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 11:23 Sponkz wrote:
Hydra is so bad, i've seen people get it on Riven, Lee and alike and everytime I'm wondering why. Not like you'll ever benefit from that massive aoe-potential the item has. BT is much more smooth and gives stats that are more reason-able than hydra which basicly needs the enemy team to pile up in order to be effective. I've been told Hydra interacts with Lee Sin's and Riven's passives. Not sure exactly in what way but I'll test it after this ARAM.
Hydra's active animation is considerably shorter on Lee Sin because the Hydra active animation is the exact same animation as your auto attack. Because Lee has an attack speed steroid passive, it shortens the animation for Hydra.
For Riven, her passive applies first before the aoe splash and Hydra active is calculated, but that's it. Hydra on Riven doesn't seem to be anything special. If anything, Hydra interacts badly with Riven because Riven's third Q scatters the enemy, which makes the Hydra passive shittier.
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On July 03 2013 11:27 zer0das wrote:
Hydra is amazing on Lee. It lets you clear waves so fast by comboing it with his e, not to mention the increased burst on his overall combo. It's not bad on Renekton either but you usually only have room for brutalizer/blck cleaver.
You can easily wave-clear with 2 points in E and a fully stacked BT. The overall increased burst shouldn't be higher single-target wise so it's only a better choice when enemies pile up like mad, but when does that happen?
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On July 03 2013 11:29 Slusher wrote:
ok I can explain a bit,
my most common champion for Hydra is Wu Kong, I usually open bead pots ward start, farm up enough for pickaxe or more if I am lucky and get a gank or the person is an idiot and I just kill them. After I get the Pickaxe I make a vamp first before completing the hydra so I have the sustain to force reset the wave over and over. Once I finish the Hydra I usually ask the Jungle to come top and help me force tower after that I just roam and let him and go for ganks objective plays. either forcing him to roam or take tower.
If he takes my tower now I have a lot of leeway for pushing out, I can wait till it's only 1 wave from my tower and push it out then go back to roaming, normally on Wu you have to expend far to much mana to push out quickly. With Hydra auto > q > active clears the wave really quickly.
Granted sometimes you just lose lane and this does not all pan out this way, but thats the risk of running most non competitive viable champions.
...or you can build BT and do so much more damage. Essentially all of Wukong's teamfighting damage is his ulti, which has an absurd AD ratio and tick time so getting BT+BC does so much more for it. Wukong can already waveclear decently well with E.
On Monkey, you really only ever have to build 1 maybe 2 damage items on him. Hydra as the only damage item is pretty terrible. BT and BC both are more effective. If you build 2 damage items, BT+BC or LW+BC is much more effective than Hydra+anything.
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I usually go Hydra + BC, I don't know where you are getting his E being good at waveclear tho, it really isn't. I don't want you to think I'm just brushing off what you are saying I think a lot of the arguments you've made are good, but I just don't agree on WuKongs natural pushing being pretty bad, it's not shen level but it's pretty bad.
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On July 03 2013 11:38 Slusher wrote:
I usually go Hydra + BC, I don't know where you are getting his E being good at waveclear tho, it really isn't.
It's aoe+huge attack speed steroid. It's not a terrible waveclear. Besides, Wukong's role isn't to splitpush/afk farm. His role is to farm up his BC and just nonstop teamfight. The Hydra passive is pointless on Wukong.
The way you described how you play Wukong is basically almost every single top laner wants to play and it doesn't require Tiamat or Hydra to do so.
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I'm surprised that people think Hydra isn't as good as BT.
I mean, it's pretty straightforward.
Hydra gives you 75 AD and 12% lifesteal for 3300g.
BT gives you 100 AD and 12% lifesteal for 3200g.
Hydra also has a ton of HP regen on it which ehh, lets say that's worth 100g just to make things easy.
So we're talking 25 AD for the cleave passive and active.
Assuming that you're some sort of melee burst damage champion (Zed, Lee, Khazix, Pantheon, what have you), and assuming that you're going to be using the Cleave active during your burst combo, it should be fairly obvious that Hydra is better than BT. The Hydra active is 100% of your AD. So even if your burst combo has a 500% AD ratio, BT would only > Hydra if your total AD was less than 125. This is fairly preposterous.
Completely ignoring the cleave passive altogether and focusing purely on the cleave active, Hydra is pretty much straight up better than BT for burst for the same cost.
Similarly, Tiamat is just straight up better than a BF Sword for burst, and only costs a little bit more. Considering that a lot of tops can (arguably should) open with a Rejuv bead anyway, it's only about 150g more and provides sustain that the BF Sword does not.
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On July 03 2013 11:39 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 11:38 Slusher wrote:
I usually go Hydra + BC, I don't know where you are getting his E being good at waveclear tho, it really isn't. It's aoe+huge attack speed steroid. It's not a terrible waveclear. Besides, Wukong's role isn't to splitpush/afk farm. His role is to farm up his BC and just nonstop teamfight. The Hydra passive is pointless on Wukong.
being able to push out quckly facilitates being in lane less, in other peoples lane more, it accomplishes what you are asking for.
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EPT
