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On July 03 2013 08:29 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 08:03 Gahlo wrote:On July 03 2013 05:41 Ketara wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 03 2013 05:20 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:46 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 04:32 Lylat wrote:
I searched koreans pro on probuilds and most of them don't put point on havoc but 4 on fury, 2 on butcher and 1 on destruction. Then most of them are doing it wrong. Not the first time we've mathematically shown that pros aren't building the most efficient way. Fact is League players don't theorycraft enough, it's something we should be doing more often. Faster pushing and faster towers down have a greater effect on the game than the minor differences of gold worth of attack speed vs damage. This is a case where the #s are misleading. Lets examine these points. 3 points in Fury (3% attack speed) vs. 3 points in Havoc (2% damage) Fury is giving you an extra 1% overall damage on your autoattacks. In fact, for last hitting, it's actually giving you less damage. Since Executioner is giving you 5% more damage and these bonuses scale multiplicatively, you're actually getting 2.1% extra damage from Havoc, so a 0.9% overall damage increase with autoattacks. Except if you're pushing at an early stage, where masteries matter most, you're most likely making use of all you AS. Havoc: 1.08171*damage Fury: 1.092*damage So your individual auto attack damage may be lower, but your sustained damage is higher. I've missed more CS due to not having enough AS as opposed to ~2% damage from a single auto attack. + Show Spoiler +So, which makes you better at pushing?
Assuming that you are never going to use a single skill when you push, Fury would make you 0.9% better at pushing. This is blatantly not the case, everybody uses skills when they push minion waves.
Granted, a lot of the time you're going to be in situations where you'd kill the minion in the same number of hits with or without Fury, so there is that. There's also going to be situations where that extra 2.1% damage will mean you kill the thing in 1 less hit. In those situations, you'd hit another minion to soften it up while your minions take care of the extra so you can switch back and last hit it. The same as if you didn't have Fury, except you do it faster and with less overkill. + Show Spoiler +For pushing towers, we're talking the same thing. 3 points in Fury is going to make you 0.9% better at pushing towers than Havoc is, if you're taking Destruction.
However, it's worth noting that in a siege situation, Havoc is going to be better, because you often won't get to just sit there autoattacking, you're going to be able to take a certain number of shots and then back out. That number of shots is not likely to change with a 3% attack speed difference. The damage multipliers on towers are: Havoc: 1*1.01*1.02=103.02% Destruction: 1*1.04*1.05=109.2% So no, taking Destruction with 4/4 fury is a little over 6% than than Havoc with 1/4 Fury. + Show Spoiler +Finally, to the statement that attack speed makes it easier to shoot and move, I don't know what game you're playing, but it's easier to shoot-move-shoot the slower your attack speed is, because you get more time to move between attacks and are losing less overall DPS by doing it.
If you think being 0.9% better at autoattacking towers at a standstill is worth doing more damage at all stages of the game, more power to you. I think I disagree. The only ADC I might argue for Fury on would be Vayne, since Havoc doesn't affect true damage (not sure why it doesn't) If you think that shooting 3% faster greatly impacts your mechanics when fighting, then I don't know what to tell you. The only time I see people having issues is at the least when the get Zerkers/Zeal. Auto attacks lost due to kiting most likely eclipse the 3% attack speed difference, making realistic theory crafting on it pointless at that stage. As stated above, the Destruction build is 6% better at taking towers. That's not the way the math works, FYI. Here, lets do some actual early game math, lets see how well a level 1 Caitlyn pushes down towers with two mastery builds. The builds in question: 1 - http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#gsUvlGvTvdd2 - http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#MGUvSGvTvddThese are very silly mastery pages that one would never actually take, but I want to illustrate the difference between specifically 3 points in Fury to 3 points in Havoc.
Then why are you discussing them?
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On July 03 2013 08:36 Scip wrote:
I am not sure if you did your math right Ketara. Once a champ has 50% attack speed bonus from other sources Havoc is better than fury. No questions asked. Fury can only be better before that point.
That may be true, lets check it out.
Same math, but with an extra 50% bonus attack speed.
With Fury, 0.98125 attack speed. Without, 0.9625
So, with 3 points in Fury and no Havoc, her DPS to towers is:
0.98125 * 79.114 * 1.05 = 81.5869058
With 3 points in Havoc and no Fury, her DPS to towers is:
0.9625 * 79.114 * 1.05 * 1.02 = 81.5536779
This is a difference of approximately 0.01%
So yeah, the more attack speed you get from items, the better Havoc actually gets against towers, too. Do correct me if my math is bad, I'm a History student, I use my hands for numbers n' stuff.
We are discussing it because I am showing you that PER POINT Havoc is simply giving you more stats than Fury, in basically all scenarios in which you are not literally standing still and autoattacking like you were AFK at the very start of the game. I don't think people do that very often.
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On July 03 2013 08:29 ReketSomething wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 08:28 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 08:25 ReketSomething wrote:Does anyone think that getting multiple sorc shoes will be a thing? Its the only non unique magic pen. Sure the MS doesn't stack but you can get 2 different types of enchantments and the boots are pretty cheap. + Show Spoiler +Not to mention champions have 2 feet. It's possible, but unlikely. Over half the cost of sorc shoes goes into the movespeed bonus, which obviously doesn't stack. It's just not worth it imo. There's no magic damage champion that has base damages so high to justify wasting ~580 gold on nothing. Elise! Imagine Elise, who can potentially have 8 legs, having both Alacrity and Furor enchantments chasing people down with true damage!
And Captain boots for your spiderlings!
I remember building Captain boots and Banner of Command. Well. That was certainly a dumb build.
I do like building lots of damage on Elise and playing her assassin style. In 3v3, DFG+Witchcap is great fun.
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On July 03 2013 08:29 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 08:03 Gahlo wrote:On July 03 2013 05:41 Ketara wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 03 2013 05:20 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:46 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 04:32 Lylat wrote:
I searched koreans pro on probuilds and most of them don't put point on havoc but 4 on fury, 2 on butcher and 1 on destruction. Then most of them are doing it wrong. Not the first time we've mathematically shown that pros aren't building the most efficient way. Fact is League players don't theorycraft enough, it's something we should be doing more often. Faster pushing and faster towers down have a greater effect on the game than the minor differences of gold worth of attack speed vs damage. This is a case where the #s are misleading. Lets examine these points. 3 points in Fury (3% attack speed) vs. 3 points in Havoc (2% damage) Fury is giving you an extra 1% overall damage on your autoattacks. In fact, for last hitting, it's actually giving you less damage. Since Executioner is giving you 5% more damage and these bonuses scale multiplicatively, you're actually getting 2.1% extra damage from Havoc, so a 0.9% overall damage increase with autoattacks. Except if you're pushing at an early stage, where masteries matter most, you're most likely making use of all you AS. Havoc: 1.08171*damage Fury: 1.092*damage So your individual auto attack damage may be lower, but your sustained damage is higher. I've missed more CS due to not having enough AS as opposed to ~2% damage from a single auto attack. + Show Spoiler +So, which makes you better at pushing?
Assuming that you are never going to use a single skill when you push, Fury would make you 0.9% better at pushing. This is blatantly not the case, everybody uses skills when they push minion waves.
Granted, a lot of the time you're going to be in situations where you'd kill the minion in the same number of hits with or without Fury, so there is that. There's also going to be situations where that extra 2.1% damage will mean you kill the thing in 1 less hit. In those situations, you'd hit another minion to soften it up while your minions take care of the extra so you can switch back and last hit it. The same as if you didn't have Fury, except you do it faster and with less overkill. + Show Spoiler +For pushing towers, we're talking the same thing. 3 points in Fury is going to make you 0.9% better at pushing towers than Havoc is, if you're taking Destruction.
However, it's worth noting that in a siege situation, Havoc is going to be better, because you often won't get to just sit there autoattacking, you're going to be able to take a certain number of shots and then back out. That number of shots is not likely to change with a 3% attack speed difference. The damage multipliers on towers are: Havoc: 1*1.01*1.02=103.02% Destruction: 1*1.04*1.05=109.2% So no, taking Destruction with 4/4 fury is a little over 6% than than Havoc with 1/4 Fury. + Show Spoiler +Finally, to the statement that attack speed makes it easier to shoot and move, I don't know what game you're playing, but it's easier to shoot-move-shoot the slower your attack speed is, because you get more time to move between attacks and are losing less overall DPS by doing it.
If you think being 0.9% better at autoattacking towers at a standstill is worth doing more damage at all stages of the game, more power to you. I think I disagree. The only ADC I might argue for Fury on would be Vayne, since Havoc doesn't affect true damage (not sure why it doesn't) If you think that shooting 3% faster greatly impacts your mechanics when fighting, then I don't know what to tell you. The only time I see people having issues is at the least when the get Zerkers/Zeal. Auto attacks lost due to kiting most likely eclipse the 3% attack speed difference, making realistic theory crafting on it pointless at that stage. As stated above, the Destruction build is 6% better at taking towers. That's not the way the math works, FYI. Here, lets do some actual early game math, lets see how well a level 1 Caitlyn pushes down towers with two mastery builds. The builds in question: 1 - http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#gsUvlGvTvdd2 - http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#MGUvSGvTvddThese are very silly mastery pages that one would never actually take, but I want to illustrate the difference between specifically 3 points in Fury to 3 points in Havoc.
Then why are you discussing them? I'm discussing this Havoc against this Destruction. They are realistic choices to make while still comparing 3 havoc to 3 fury.
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Havoc vs. Destruction is a dumb argument, because they do different things. It's also not what we're talking about. We're talking about Havoc vs. Fury.
If you want to take Destruction 2 points in Havoc on top of it would still be better than 2 points in Fury.
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On July 03 2013 08:48 Ketara wrote:
Havoc vs. Destruction is a dumb argument, because they do different things. It's also not what we're talking about. We're talking about Havoc vs. Fury.
If you want to take Destruction 2 points in Havoc on top of it would still be better than 2 points in Fury.
But why do that when I can put 2 points in Fury instead of Summoner or 1% cdr? Debating mastery setups that nobody would ever take is pointless.
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Voyboy in game against Cop+Edward. We hear a "Oooooooooooh !" in the background. Voy pans to bot with a live Xerath and goes "Oh I guess Cop [Vayne] just pushed Xerath out of Ori ult [Edward Ori support]", all chill. Hue.
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On July 03 2013 08:44 Flakes wrote:
Shikyo missed his chance to rant about Panth on pg. 300 -- I guess even a spartan can't keep a topic going for that long
Also for those wondering about his lategame playstyle in teamfights, I assume panth just goes for the enemies going for his team's AD carry. He doesn't have that much peel, but if the adc has enemy aggro it's probably super easy to line up HSS.
I decided to make way for a much more exciting and important mastery argument.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
You guys still didn't tell me what masteries do you get when you go 0/9/21 jungle
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I dont understand why the discussion is Fury vs Havoc when ADs need their first 4 points somewhere, and often don't take an offensive summoner and don't use the CDR. I also don't think butcher is that great on ADs either, so Fury is really the only option.
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On July 03 2013 08:26 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 08:23 komokun wrote:On July 03 2013 03:35 mr_tolkien wrote:
Btw, am I the only one running utility on pretty much everybody atm ?
Most mids and junglers really benefit from it. A bit late but utility is stupidly strong on any jungler (or anything for that matter). 0/9/21 and you can jungle any champ with ms quints, it's pretty ridiculous. I'm starting to run 9/0/21 on ap champ as well, 21 offense in magic damage feels like a waste. 21 in offense (actually only 19) is nice though. I even tried lee with the 0/9/21 set up and maxing E, works pretty well. And every lee player shed a tear.
:'(
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So, after all this Panth talk, I think it's time for me to bust it out again. I'm really curious if I can make it work against Jayce/Rammus :D
http://www.twitch.tv/mr_tolkien
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On July 03 2013 08:49 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 08:48 Ketara wrote:
Havoc vs. Destruction is a dumb argument, because they do different things. It's also not what we're talking about. We're talking about Havoc vs. Fury.
If you want to take Destruction 2 points in Havoc on top of it would still be better than 2 points in Fury. But why do that when I can put 2 points in Fury instead of Summoner or 1% cdr? Debating mastery setups that nobody would ever take is pointless.
Because THIS: http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#llUvGGvTvdd
Is better than THIS: http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#UlUvlGvTvdd
Get it?
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Lee tears are the most delicious.
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On July 03 2013 09:10 mr_tolkien wrote:So, after all this Panth talk, I think it's time for me to bust it out again. I'm really curious if I can make it work against Jayce/Rammus :D http://www.twitch.tv/mr_tolkien
are you going for the Hunter S. Thompson look?
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On July 03 2013 08:31 ReketSomething wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 08:30 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 08:29 ReketSomething wrote:On July 03 2013 08:28 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 08:25 ReketSomething wrote:Does anyone think that getting multiple sorc shoes will be a thing? Its the only non unique magic pen. Sure the MS doesn't stack but you can get 2 different types of enchantments and the boots are pretty cheap. + Show Spoiler +Not to mention champions have 2 feet. It's possible, but unlikely. Over half the cost of sorc shoes goes into the movespeed bonus, which obviously doesn't stack. It's just not worth it imo. There's no magic damage champion that has base damages so high to justify wasting ~580 gold on nothing. Elise! Imagine Elise, who can potentially have 8 legs, having both Alacrity and Furor enchantments chasing people down with true damage! Sure, but I'd rather have my Guise/Rylais/Zhonyas/Abyssal ~600 gold earlier. The thing is, every champion that wants sorc boots very likely would want some AP, as well. So there's honestly no reason to waste that gold when you can get more value by building a different item. Sigh...people that use logic.
why would you limit yourself to sorc shoes if you're gonna be putting boots on all your spiders.
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what champion is best to play a 1v5 with (from the very beginning). you'd probably lose but who might be able to pull it off
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Never lost vs Jayce as Pantheon, always denied to an extent where I can just tank shockblasts to deny farm. Opponents were bad but so am I. All you need to do is spam spears. After he uses shockblast with gate, you can ghost and allin if he's at like 60%
the best champion for 1v5 would be Poppy because she can bypass the disadvantage and kill everyone else while ulting the support if she's fed enough
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On July 03 2013 09:36 Kenpachi wrote:
what champion is best to play a 1v5 with (from the very beginning). you'd probably lose but who might be able to pull it off
Probably singed if you can stall it
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On July 03 2013 09:36 Kenpachi wrote:
what champion is best to play a 1v5 with (from the very beginning). you'd probably lose but who might be able to pull it off
Tryndamere, yi probably.
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EPT
