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On July 03 2013 05:41 Ketara wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 03 2013 05:20 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:46 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 04:32 Lylat wrote:
I searched koreans pro on probuilds and most of them don't put point on havoc but 4 on fury, 2 on butcher and 1 on destruction. Then most of them are doing it wrong. Not the first time we've mathematically shown that pros aren't building the most efficient way. Fact is League players don't theorycraft enough, it's something we should be doing more often. Faster pushing and faster towers down have a greater effect on the game than the minor differences of gold worth of attack speed vs damage. This is a case where the #s are misleading. Lets examine these points. 3 points in Fury (3% attack speed) vs. 3 points in Havoc (2% damage) Fury is giving you an extra 1% overall damage on your autoattacks. In fact, for last hitting, it's actually giving you less damage. Since Executioner is giving you 5% more damage and these bonuses scale multiplicatively, you're actually getting 2.1% extra damage from Havoc, so a 0.9% overall damage increase with autoattacks.
Except if you're pushing at an early stage, where masteries matter most, you're most likely making use of all you AS.
Havoc: 1.08171*damage
Fury: 1.092*damage
So your individual auto attack damage may be lower, but your sustained damage is higher. I've missed more CS due to not having enough AS as opposed to ~2% damage from a single auto attack.
+ Show Spoiler +So, which makes you better at pushing?
Assuming that you are never going to use a single skill when you push, Fury would make you 0.9% better at pushing. This is blatantly not the case, everybody uses skills when they push minion waves.
Granted, a lot of the time you're going to be in situations where you'd kill the minion in the same number of hits with or without Fury, so there is that. There's also going to be situations where that extra 2.1% damage will mean you kill the thing in 1 less hit.
In those situations, you'd hit another minion to soften it up while your minions take care of the extra so you can switch back and last hit it. The same as if you didn't have Fury, except you do it faster and with less overkill.
+ Show Spoiler +For pushing towers, we're talking the same thing. 3 points in Fury is going to make you 0.9% better at pushing towers than Havoc is, if you're taking Destruction.
However, it's worth noting that in a siege situation, Havoc is going to be better, because you often won't get to just sit there autoattacking, you're going to be able to take a certain number of shots and then back out. That number of shots is not likely to change with a 3% attack speed difference.
The damage multipliers on towers are:
Havoc: 1*1.01*1.02=103.02%
Destruction: 1*1.04*1.05=109.2%
So no, taking Destruction with 4/4 fury is a little over 6% than than Havoc with 1/4 Fury.
+ Show Spoiler +Finally, to the statement that attack speed makes it easier to shoot and move, I don't know what game you're playing, but it's easier to shoot-move-shoot the slower your attack speed is, because you get more time to move between attacks and are losing less overall DPS by doing it.
If you think being 0.9% better at autoattacking towers at a standstill is worth doing more damage at all stages of the game, more power to you. I think I disagree. The only ADC I might argue for Fury on would be Vayne, since Havoc doesn't affect true damage (not sure why it doesn't)
If you think that shooting 3% faster greatly impacts your mechanics when fighting, then I don't know what to tell you. The only time I see people having issues is at the least when the get Zerkers/Zeal. Auto attacks lost due to kiting most likely eclipse the 3% attack speed difference, making realistic theory crafting on it pointless at that stage.
As stated above, the Destruction build is 6% better at taking towers.
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On July 03 2013 07:58 mordek wrote:
Does anyone ever not get homeguard??
Sometimes get Furor if I really need extra chasing power on melee autoattackers, but generally this is late into the game because Homeguards are too efficient during early/mid.
I get Alacrity on champs where I get Swifties and if we're ahead enough that I don't need Homeguard. Swiftness Alacrity on Voli or Skarner is pretty good.
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On July 03 2013 08:08 Requizen wrote:Sometimes get Furor if I really need extra chasing power on melee autoattackers, but generally this is late into the game because Homeguards are too efficient during early/mid. I get Alacrity on champs where I get Swifties and if we're ahead enough that I don't need Homeguard. Swiftness Alacrity on Voli or Skarner is pretty good.
Udyr with rushed Alacrity Swifty is scary as fuck.
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On July 03 2013 07:59 Slusher wrote:
I go distortion on any champion that gets a lot of mileage out of Flash ult.
Yeah, I usually get it fairly quickly on someone like Annie.
It's also a good early pick up on someone running Teleport, like a Diana.
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On July 03 2013 08:13 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 07:59 Slusher wrote:
I go distortion on any champion that gets a lot of mileage out of Flash ult. Yeah, I usually get it fairly quickly on someone like Annie. It's also a good early pick up on someone running Teleport, like a Diana.
I usually get distortion on kennen, flash ult all the time.
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Man, I know Distortion is good in certain situations, but it feels so bad to buy something that won't have any effect for the next 225-425 seconds (there's no difference until flash comes off cooldown the second time, plus whatever cooldown flash is on currently when you buy Distortion)
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On July 03 2013 03:35 mr_tolkien wrote:
Btw, am I the only one running utility on pretty much everybody atm ?
Most mids and junglers really benefit from it.
A bit late but utility is stupidly strong on any jungler (or anything for that matter). 0/9/21 and you can jungle any champ with ms quints, it's pretty ridiculous.
I'm starting to run 9/0/21 on ap champ as well, 21 offense in magic damage feels like a waste. 21 in offense (actually only 19) is nice though.
I even tried lee with the 0/9/21 set up and maxing E, works pretty well.
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Does anyone think that getting multiple sorc shoes will be a thing? Its the only non unique magic pen. Sure the MS doesn't stack but you can get 2 different types of enchantments and the boots are pretty cheap.
+ Show Spoiler +Not to mention champions have 2 feet.
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On July 03 2013 08:23 komokun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 03:35 mr_tolkien wrote:
Btw, am I the only one running utility on pretty much everybody atm ?
Most mids and junglers really benefit from it. A bit late but utility is stupidly strong on any jungler (or anything for that matter). 0/9/21 and you can jungle any champ with ms quints, it's pretty ridiculous. I'm starting to run 9/0/21 on ap champ as well, 21 offense in magic damage feels like a waste. 21 in offense (actually only 19) is nice though. I even tried lee with the 0/9/21 set up and maxing E, works pretty well.
Also new nashors looks op. Makes me wanna try a power augment 9/0/21 Viktor kiting machine.
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On July 03 2013 08:23 komokun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 03:35 mr_tolkien wrote:
Btw, am I the only one running utility on pretty much everybody atm ?
Most mids and junglers really benefit from it. A bit late but utility is stupidly strong on any jungler (or anything for that matter). 0/9/21 and you can jungle any champ with ms quints, it's pretty ridiculous. I'm starting to run 9/0/21 on ap champ as well, 21 offense in magic damage feels like a waste. 21 in offense (actually only 19) is nice though. I even tried lee with the 0/9/21 set up and maxing E, works pretty well.
And every lee player shed a tear.
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On July 03 2013 08:25 ReketSomething wrote:Does anyone think that getting multiple sorc shoes will be a thing? Its the only non unique magic pen. Sure the MS doesn't stack but you can get 2 different types of enchantments and the boots are pretty cheap. + Show Spoiler +Not to mention champions have 2 feet.
Huh, I thought they changed that...
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On July 03 2013 08:25 ReketSomething wrote:Does anyone think that getting multiple sorc shoes will be a thing? Its the only non unique magic pen. + Show Spoiler +Not to mention champions have 2 feet.
It's possible, but unlikely. Over half the cost of sorc shoes goes into the movespeed bonus, which obviously doesn't stack. It's just not worth it imo. There's no magic damage champion that has base damages so high to justify wasting ~580 gold on nothing.
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On July 03 2013 08:28 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 08:25 ReketSomething wrote:Does anyone think that getting multiple sorc shoes will be a thing? Its the only non unique magic pen. Sure the MS doesn't stack but you can get 2 different types of enchantments and the boots are pretty cheap. + Show Spoiler +Not to mention champions have 2 feet. It's possible, but unlikely. Over half the cost of sorc shoes goes into the movespeed bonus, which obviously doesn't stack. It's just not worth it imo. There's no magic damage champion that has base damages so high to justify wasting ~580 gold on nothing.
Elise! Imagine Elise, who can potentially have 8 legs, having both Alacrity and Furor enchantments chasing people down with true damage!
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On July 03 2013 08:03 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 05:41 Ketara wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 03 2013 05:20 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:46 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 04:32 Lylat wrote:
I searched koreans pro on probuilds and most of them don't put point on havoc but 4 on fury, 2 on butcher and 1 on destruction. Then most of them are doing it wrong. Not the first time we've mathematically shown that pros aren't building the most efficient way. Fact is League players don't theorycraft enough, it's something we should be doing more often. Faster pushing and faster towers down have a greater effect on the game than the minor differences of gold worth of attack speed vs damage. This is a case where the #s are misleading. Lets examine these points. 3 points in Fury (3% attack speed) vs. 3 points in Havoc (2% damage) Fury is giving you an extra 1% overall damage on your autoattacks. In fact, for last hitting, it's actually giving you less damage. Since Executioner is giving you 5% more damage and these bonuses scale multiplicatively, you're actually getting 2.1% extra damage from Havoc, so a 0.9% overall damage increase with autoattacks. Except if you're pushing at an early stage, where masteries matter most, you're most likely making use of all you AS. Havoc: 1.08171*damage Fury: 1.092*damage So your individual auto attack damage may be lower, but your sustained damage is higher. I've missed more CS due to not having enough AS as opposed to ~2% damage from a single auto attack. Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +So, which makes you better at pushing?
Assuming that you are never going to use a single skill when you push, Fury would make you 0.9% better at pushing. This is blatantly not the case, everybody uses skills when they push minion waves.
Granted, a lot of the time you're going to be in situations where you'd kill the minion in the same number of hits with or without Fury, so there is that. There's also going to be situations where that extra 2.1% damage will mean you kill the thing in 1 less hit. In those situations, you'd hit another minion to soften it up while your minions take care of the extra so you can switch back and last hit it. The same as if you didn't have Fury, except you do it faster and with less overkill. Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +For pushing towers, we're talking the same thing. 3 points in Fury is going to make you 0.9% better at pushing towers than Havoc is, if you're taking Destruction.
However, it's worth noting that in a siege situation, Havoc is going to be better, because you often won't get to just sit there autoattacking, you're going to be able to take a certain number of shots and then back out. That number of shots is not likely to change with a 3% attack speed difference. The damage multipliers on towers are: Havoc: 1*1.01*1.02=103.02% Destruction: 1*1.04*1.05=109.2% So no, taking Destruction with 4/4 fury is a little over 6% than than Havoc with 1/4 Fury. Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +Finally, to the statement that attack speed makes it easier to shoot and move, I don't know what game you're playing, but it's easier to shoot-move-shoot the slower your attack speed is, because you get more time to move between attacks and are losing less overall DPS by doing it.
If you think being 0.9% better at autoattacking towers at a standstill is worth doing more damage at all stages of the game, more power to you. I think I disagree. The only ADC I might argue for Fury on would be Vayne, since Havoc doesn't affect true damage (not sure why it doesn't) If you think that shooting 3% faster greatly impacts your mechanics when fighting, then I don't know what to tell you. The only time I see people having issues is at the least when the get Zerkers/Zeal. Auto attacks lost due to kiting most likely eclipse the 3% attack speed difference, making realistic theory crafting on it pointless at that stage. As stated above, the Destruction build is 6% better at taking towers.
That's not the way the math works, FYI.
Here, lets do some actual early game math, lets see how well a level 1 Caitlyn pushes down towers with two mastery builds.
The builds in question:
1 - http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#gsUvlGvTvdd
2 - http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#MGUvSGvTvdd
These are very silly mastery pages that one would never actually take, but I want to illustrate the difference between specifically 3 points in Fury to 3 points in Havoc.
At level 1 Cait has 50 base AD, +10 from a Dorans Blade, +3 from Brute Force, +0.664 from Deadliness. Assuming an AD rune page since that's best for pushing, she also has 15.45 AD from runes. This totals 79.114 AD.
Her base attackspeed is 0.625, +4% per level. Without 3 points in Fury her attack speed is 0.65, with it her attack speed is 0.66875.
So, with 3 points in Fury and no Havoc, her DPS to towers is:
0.66875 * 79.114 * 1.05 = 55.552861875
With 3 points in Havoc and no Fury, her DPS to towers is:
0.65 * 79.114 * 1.05 * 1.02 = 55.0752111
This is a difference of approximately 0.85981308411215%
So again, if you think autoattacking towers 0.86% better is more important than doing more damage at all stages of the game, more power to you. I mean, Havoc is increasing the damage on all your skills by 2%, your Shiv chain lightning proc by 2%, your BotRK passive/active by 2%, your Muramana damage by 2%, etc etc. All Fury is giving you is a 0.86% damage increase when you're standing flatly still and autoattacking, and doing nothing else.
I mean, in order for Fury to be outdamaging Havoc, you have to be doing more than 98% of your damage with autoattacks. Even for Caitlyn who in late game teamfights is basically a pure AAer, even in a fight where you never Q, ult, or lay traps, lets say you hit one person with E once over the course of the fight.
That E does 280 magic damage. In order for that to be less than 2% of your overall damage you have to do at least 14,000 damage in the fight. If you've got 300 AD that means you have to autoattack 46 times during the fight. Pretty much not going to happen. Even accounting for armor vs. magic resist and such you're still not going to be autoing 20+ times in a given teamfight.
Not to mention in order for that to hold true you also have to stand perfectly still and never move for the entire 46 autos.
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On July 03 2013 08:29 ReketSomething wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 08:28 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 08:25 ReketSomething wrote:Does anyone think that getting multiple sorc shoes will be a thing? Its the only non unique magic pen. Sure the MS doesn't stack but you can get 2 different types of enchantments and the boots are pretty cheap. + Show Spoiler +Not to mention champions have 2 feet. It's possible, but unlikely. Over half the cost of sorc shoes goes into the movespeed bonus, which obviously doesn't stack. It's just not worth it imo. There's no magic damage champion that has base damages so high to justify wasting ~580 gold on nothing. Elise! Imagine Elise, who can potentially have 8 legs, having both Alacrity and Furor enchantments chasing people down with true damage!
Sure, but I'd rather have my Guise/Rylais/Zhonyas/Abyssal ~600 gold earlier. The thing is, every champion that wants sorc boots very likely would want some AP, as well. So there's honestly no reason to waste that gold when you can get more value by building a different item.
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On July 03 2013 08:30 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 08:29 ReketSomething wrote:On July 03 2013 08:28 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 08:25 ReketSomething wrote:Does anyone think that getting multiple sorc shoes will be a thing? Its the only non unique magic pen. Sure the MS doesn't stack but you can get 2 different types of enchantments and the boots are pretty cheap. + Show Spoiler +Not to mention champions have 2 feet. It's possible, but unlikely. Over half the cost of sorc shoes goes into the movespeed bonus, which obviously doesn't stack. It's just not worth it imo. There's no magic damage champion that has base damages so high to justify wasting ~580 gold on nothing. Elise! Imagine Elise, who can potentially have 8 legs, having both Alacrity and Furor enchantments chasing people down with true damage! Sure, but I'd rather have my Guise/Rylais/Zhonyas/Abyssal ~600 gold earlier. The thing is, every champion that wants sorc boots very likely would want some AP, as well. So there's honestly no reason to waste that gold when you can get more value by building a different item.
Sigh...people that use logic.
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I run 9-0-21 on some champs, esp. when I want utility or the additional exp. helps, but when you want to burst hard (for example Viktor) you really like the %AP and executioner for example (Viktor gets a bunch of mileage out of it for his midgame because Augment:Death inflates his AP).
Tried 9-0-21 on Ori too, thinking it would be good to have more CDR and stuff, but found you really want to have whatever little more AP it gives when against heavy pushing champs, since her Q base damage is so low and you can't really afford to spam it to compensate during the early laning phase. Liked it on Cass and Syndra too but that's because I'm bad so I use it to harass (additional MS, mana, CDR, etc.) whereas 21-0-9 on those would gift you early kills, especially on Cass, if you're decent.
CDR on Cass is nice as a crutch when you miss your Q or have a mistiming on E (for example poison disappear while E is in flight) but you shouldn't rely on it if you're good.
Wonder how Morgana would do with utility. MS would certainly help to get in ult range during the earlygame, and CDR never hurts considering her long as fuck cooldowns. Also she doesn't really need the 21 offense to farm, no idea how her kill potential is affected though. Brand is a no-brainer, you want to burst, you go 21 offense.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I am not sure if you did your math right Ketara. Once a champ has 50% attack speed bonus from other sources Havoc is better than fury. No questions asked. Fury can only be better before that point.
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Shikyo missed his chance to rant about Panth on pg. 300 -- I guess even a spartan can't keep a topic going for that long
Also for those wondering about his lategame playstyle in teamfights, I assume panth just goes for the enemies going for his team's AD carry. He doesn't have that much peel, but if the adc has enemy aggro it's probably super easy to line up HSS.
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EPT
