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On July 03 2013 11:53 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 11:50 wei2coolman wrote:On July 03 2013 11:48 Zdrastochye wrote:On July 03 2013 11:39 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 11:38 Slusher wrote:
I usually go Hydra + BC, I don't know where you are getting his E being good at waveclear tho, it really isn't. It's aoe+huge attack speed steroid. It's not a terrible waveclear. Besides, Wukong's role isn't to splitpush/afk farm. His role is to farm up his BC and just nonstop teamfight. The Hydra passive is pointless on Wukong. The way you described how you play Wukong is basically almost every single top laner wants to play and it doesn't require Tiamat or Hydra to do so. So Voyboy says he really likes Hydra's synergy with top lane Lee, in that it helps him wave clear well, and the burst is nice when combined with his E. Do you think he's playing sub-optimally and should get BT instead, and why? On top lane lee sin it's actually really good. Lee sin is all about mobility and play making; especially in midgame. If you can clear out a wave in 2 auto attacks; that give you an extra 10-15 seconds of roaming time. Well right, I agree with you totally, but Ryuu seems to have a more informed decision than I do, so I'm curious if he rates the burst of botrk or BT over Hydra on top lane Lee. I don't play him either way, this is more for sating my own knowledge thirst.
It's really dependent; if they have poor wave clear; and you're E maxing. BotRK is a better buy imo. If they can't push back on you when you roam, then BotRK is better for the roam. If they can wave clear quickly; Hydra is a better buy.
Hydra on Rengar is pretty absurd; but so is BotRK; I wonder what westrice thinks about it; since in his matches he used each of them once on the game.
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Regarding hydra. I used to get it on trynd but have been trying shiv recently any thoughts on which is better?
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On July 03 2013 11:55 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 11:52 wei2coolman wrote:
I think you seriously undervalue the pushing ability of Hydra. Hydra has immense pushing ability. I agree with you that it's the premier pushing item. I'm jsut saying that most champions that would build Hydra already have insane pushing power and simply don't need that extra pushing capability. When you already one-shot a wave as Zed, you really don't need Hydra. This is also why I said that I find Lee to be an exception to my Hydra is sub-optimal rule since Lee's innate waveclear isn't that great.
It's more the situations that its clear lets you play with. As Rengar you can sit at whatever Ferocity triple Q requires and just unload on people when they try to stop you while still having solid clear. As Riven, you can still push fast while saving your mobility to either leave or jump on people.
Hydra has intangibles because of its utility and flexibility that you can't just math around.
On July 03 2013 12:01 jaybrundage wrote:
Regarding hydra. I used to get it on trynd but have been trying shiv recently any thoughts on which is better?
BotRK/Shivv is what makes Trynd tick, currently.
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On July 03 2013 12:01 jaybrundage wrote:
Regarding hydra. I used to get it on trynd but have been trying shiv recently any thoughts on which is better?
Trynd's wave clear is pretty good; I don't see him really benefiting too much from Hydra as a first item.
On July 03 2013 12:01 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 11:55 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 11:52 wei2coolman wrote:
I think you seriously undervalue the pushing ability of Hydra. Hydra has immense pushing ability. I agree with you that it's the premier pushing item. I'm jsut saying that most champions that would build Hydra already have insane pushing power and simply don't need that extra pushing capability. When you already one-shot a wave as Zed, you really don't need Hydra. This is also why I said that I find Lee to be an exception to my Hydra is sub-optimal rule since Lee's innate waveclear isn't that great. It's more the situations that its clear lets you play with. As Rengar you can sit at whatever Ferocity triple Q requires and just unload on people when they try to stop you while still having solid clear. As Riven, you can still push fast while saving your mobility to either leave or jump on people. Hydra has intangibles because of its utility and flexibility that you can't just math around.
I've really liked Hydra on jungle Yi; at least the tiamat component of it. Spamming Q is so costly mana wise. Tiamat solves a lot of issues for Yi, also late game splitpush yi loves dat clear.
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On July 03 2013 12:01 jaybrundage wrote:
Regarding hydra. I used to get it on trynd but have been trying shiv recently any thoughts on which is better?
Shiv because Tryn has so much crit the Shiv proc is basically always going to do double damage. It's also more reliable aoe.
Basically here's what my thought process behind buying Hydra is:
1a. You want the active for your burst combo and Bork's active, for whatever reason, is inferior.
1b. You have good enough mobility/fast enough attack animation so that the Hydra animation isn't clunky.
2. You want pushing power because you don't have any.
The only champion I can think of that fulfills that is Lee Sin.
I honestly have never tried/seen a Rengar build Hydra so I can't say, but honestly, Rengar's triple Q with just Bork and/or BC insta-kills any relevant target regardless so I can't see the Hydra active being all that necessary. I suppose it gives you flexibility in that you don't have to use your abilities to push/wave clear, but building ferocity is not hard and you can triple Q at any level of ferocity. It's just that having 3~4 ferocity makes it easier to pull off.
I honestly didn't know that Hydra active gives Riven a tick of her passive. It might be worth it in that case since Riven's damage is like 75% being able to proc her passive.
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On July 03 2013 11:51 Ryuu314 wrote:
There's no denying that Hydra increases your burst. The question is whether or not it's better than the alternatives. In the most cases, it's not.
When you're playing a non-stomp game, you're not going to have all the gold in the world to buy everything you want. You have to prioritize. When you're on a burst champion, Bork is going to be better than Hydra for burst almost all the time. Bork active is 15% of the enemy's max health, while Hydra active is 1 auto attack. Unless one of your auto attacks are doing >15% of the target's max HP, which won't be until late game when you get 300+ AD, Bork is going to outperform Hydra in burst. Bork also has the slow/speed effect which helps you kill your target. Hydra makes you stand in place for however long your auto animation is.
I would say this is demonstrably false. Let's examine it.
I'm playing lets say Pantheon, since we've been talking about him all day. My burst combo is going to be Q>W>E>Q
This is a total of 920+660% bonus AD damage, if the second Q doesn't crit and kill the guy.
BotRK gives 25 AD, for 165 damage added to this combo.
Hydra gives 75 AD, for 495 damage added to this combo. A difference of 330 damage.
BT gives 100 AD, for 660 bonus damage. A difference of 495 damage.
In order for the BotRK active to do at least 330 damage, the target has to have at least 2200 HP. In order for it to do 495, they have to have at least 3300 HP. Few burst targets have over 3k health.
Neither of these calculations factor in the Hydra active at all. I'd be willing to say that in terms of Pantheon, if you think you can't use the Hydra active, the best damage item of the 3 would be BT>Hydra>BotRK, and if you think you can use the Hydra active, the best damage item of the 3 would be Hydra>BT>BotRK.
This is going to be true for a vast number of bursty AD Casters. I don't know what Zeds burst damage combo is, but if somebody would be willing to tell me about what it's like I'd be happy to show you that Hydra is going to outdamage BotRK there as well. I'm also willing to say with some certainty that it's also going to be better for Lee, and he actually autoattacks sometimes.
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On July 03 2013 12:03 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:01 jaybrundage wrote:
Regarding hydra. I used to get it on trynd but have been trying shiv recently any thoughts on which is better? Shiv because Tryn has so much crit the Shiv proc is basically always going to do double damage. It's also more reliable aoe.
That and spin gives Shiv charges.
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according to my Math,
assuming your living shadow Shuriken misses it would take 1400 health pre Hydra active if they have flash up (can't E twice) or 1800 health if they don't have flash up (E twice) for BotRK to do as much damage as Hydra in a combo, not counting the active or W AD amplification. Pretty sure BotRK is overrated on Zed.
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On July 03 2013 12:06 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 11:51 Ryuu314 wrote:
There's no denying that Hydra increases your burst. The question is whether or not it's better than the alternatives. In the most cases, it's not.
When you're playing a non-stomp game, you're not going to have all the gold in the world to buy everything you want. You have to prioritize. When you're on a burst champion, Bork is going to be better than Hydra for burst almost all the time. Bork active is 15% of the enemy's max health, while Hydra active is 1 auto attack. Unless one of your auto attacks are doing >15% of the target's max HP, which won't be until late game when you get 300+ AD, Bork is going to outperform Hydra in burst. Bork also has the slow/speed effect which helps you kill your target. Hydra makes you stand in place for however long your auto animation is. I would say this is demonstrably false. Let's examine it. I'm playing lets say Pantheon, since we've been talking about him all day. My burst combo is going to be Q>W>E>Q This is a total of 920+660% bonus AD damage, if the second Q doesn't crit and kill the guy. BotRK gives 25 AD, for 165 damage added to this combo. Hydra gives 75 AD, for 495 damage added to this combo. A difference of 330 damage. BT gives 100 AD, for 660 bonus damage. A difference of 495 damage. In order for the BotRK active to do at least 330 damage, the target has to have at least 2200 HP. In order for it to do 495, they have to have at least 3300 HP. Few burst targets have over 3k health. Neither of these calculations factor in the Hydra active at all. I'd be willing to say that in terms of Pantheon, if you think you can't use the Hydra active, the best damage item of the 3 would be BT>Hydra>BotRK, and if you think you can use the Hydra active, the best damage item of the 3 would be Hydra>BT>BotRK. This is going to be true for a vast number of bursty AD Casters. I don't know what Zeds burst damage combo is, but if somebody would be willing to tell me about what it's like I'd be happy to show you that Tiamat is going to outdamage BotRK there as well.
This work is hard to read. I've seen you post math on like all the past 5 pages. And it's a welcome change, but can you put it into a spreadsheet?
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I dun' kno how 2 spreadsheetz
Like seriously, I'm a nub.
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On July 03 2013 12:07 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:03 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:01 jaybrundage wrote:
Regarding hydra. I used to get it on trynd but have been trying shiv recently any thoughts on which is better? Shiv because Tryn has so much crit the Shiv proc is basically always going to do double damage. It's also more reliable aoe. That and spin gives Shiv charges.
This changes everything. Again. ™
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On July 03 2013 12:06 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 11:51 Ryuu314 wrote:
There's no denying that Hydra increases your burst. The question is whether or not it's better than the alternatives. In the most cases, it's not.
When you're playing a non-stomp game, you're not going to have all the gold in the world to buy everything you want. You have to prioritize. When you're on a burst champion, Bork is going to be better than Hydra for burst almost all the time. Bork active is 15% of the enemy's max health, while Hydra active is 1 auto attack. Unless one of your auto attacks are doing >15% of the target's max HP, which won't be until late game when you get 300+ AD, Bork is going to outperform Hydra in burst. Bork also has the slow/speed effect which helps you kill your target. Hydra makes you stand in place for however long your auto animation is. I would say this is demonstrably false. Let's examine it. I'm playing lets say Pantheon, since we've been talking about him all day. My burst combo is going to be Q>W>E>Q This is a total of 920+660% bonus AD damage, if the second Q doesn't crit and kill the guy. BotRK gives 25 AD, for 165 damage added to this combo. Hydra gives 75 AD, for 495 damage added to this combo. A difference of 330 damage. BT gives 100 AD, for 660 bonus damage. A difference of 495 damage. In order for the BotRK active to do at least 330 damage, the target has to have at least 2200 HP. In order for it to do 495, they have to have at least 3300 HP. Few burst targets have over 3k health. Neither of these calculations factor in the Hydra active at all. I'd be willing to say that in terms of Pantheon, if you think you can't use the Hydra active, the best damage item of the 3 would be BT>Hydra>BotRK, and if you think you can use the Hydra active, the best damage item of the 3 would be Hydra>BT>BotRK. This is going to be true for a vast number of bursty AD Casters. I don't know what Zeds burst damage combo is, but if somebody would be willing to tell me about what it's like I'd be happy to show you that Tiamat is going to outdamage BotRK there as well. I'm also willing to say with some certainty that it's also going to be better for Lee, and he actually autoattacks sometimes.
Sure, but if you're playing Panth you're going to be getting BT and BC, not Bork. You picked one of the worst Bork wielders as an example.
In Zed's case, Bork is so damn good because his ulti amplifies the 15% max hp nuke the item gives. On top of that, the sticking power Bork gives you is also incredibly good. So again, unless it's a lategame scenario where you have over 300 AD, Bork active is going to outperform Hydra active on Zed.
On July 03 2013 12:07 Slusher wrote:
according to my Math,
assuming your living shadow Shuriken misses it would take 1400 health pre Hydra active if they have flash up (can't E twice) or 1800 health if they don't have flash up (E twice) for BotRK to do as much damage as Hydra in a combo, not counting the active or W AD amplification. Pretty sure BotRK is overrated on Zed.
I don't follow your math/explanation....
Again, I have to stress that item builds aren't all just about raw numbers and what they provide. Prioritization also plays a HUGE part in what items you buy. If you're always going for late-game scenario where you're an assassin with 350 AD and 6 items then yea, Hydra is going to be worth it 'cause the active will give you a ton of burst. But that scenario is unrealistic. In the vast majority of cases, the timing of your first big AD item is such that Bork is going to outperform Hydra. The timing of your second big offensive item is usually when you want to get armor pen and survivability, which means you're likely getting BC. Your third item on any offensive AD champion is almost always going to be LW because at this point in the game, enemies will have enough armor (naturally and through items/auras) that without LW your damage is severely hindered. After that point, sure go ahead and get Hydra but the game is often decided by then.
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On July 03 2013 12:13 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:06 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 11:51 Ryuu314 wrote:
There's no denying that Hydra increases your burst. The question is whether or not it's better than the alternatives. In the most cases, it's not.
When you're playing a non-stomp game, you're not going to have all the gold in the world to buy everything you want. You have to prioritize. When you're on a burst champion, Bork is going to be better than Hydra for burst almost all the time. Bork active is 15% of the enemy's max health, while Hydra active is 1 auto attack. Unless one of your auto attacks are doing >15% of the target's max HP, which won't be until late game when you get 300+ AD, Bork is going to outperform Hydra in burst. Bork also has the slow/speed effect which helps you kill your target. Hydra makes you stand in place for however long your auto animation is. I would say this is demonstrably false. Let's examine it. I'm playing lets say Pantheon, since we've been talking about him all day. My burst combo is going to be Q>W>E>Q This is a total of 920+660% bonus AD damage, if the second Q doesn't crit and kill the guy. BotRK gives 25 AD, for 165 damage added to this combo. Hydra gives 75 AD, for 495 damage added to this combo. A difference of 330 damage. BT gives 100 AD, for 660 bonus damage. A difference of 495 damage. In order for the BotRK active to do at least 330 damage, the target has to have at least 2200 HP. In order for it to do 495, they have to have at least 3300 HP. Few burst targets have over 3k health. Neither of these calculations factor in the Hydra active at all. I'd be willing to say that in terms of Pantheon, if you think you can't use the Hydra active, the best damage item of the 3 would be BT>Hydra>BotRK, and if you think you can use the Hydra active, the best damage item of the 3 would be Hydra>BT>BotRK. This is going to be true for a vast number of bursty AD Casters. I don't know what Zeds burst damage combo is, but if somebody would be willing to tell me about what it's like I'd be happy to show you that Tiamat is going to outdamage BotRK there as well. I'm also willing to say with some certainty that it's also going to be better for Lee, and he actually autoattacks sometimes. Sure, but if you're playing Panth you're going to be getting BT and BC, not Bork. You picked one of the worst Bork wielders as an example. In Zed's case, Bork is so damn good because his ulti amplifies the 15% max hp nuke the item gives. So again, unless it's a lategame scenario where you have over 300 AD, Bork active is going to outperform Hydra active on Zed.
it amplifies the difference in damage via modifiers that I posted just the same.
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Is it?
What does Zeds burst combo look like? Let's actually do some math for this.
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Botrk's sticking power due to active is really strong. Even in season 2; Cris would get bildgewater cutlass on riven cuz of the active.
On July 03 2013 12:14 Ketara wrote:
Is it?
What does Zeds burst combo look like? Let's actually do some math for this.
If you keep this up; people will think you're asian. + Show Spoiler +unless of course you are?
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On July 03 2013 12:15 wei2coolman wrote:Botrk's sticking power due to active is really strong. Even in season 2; Cris would get bildgewater cutlass on riven cuz of the active. Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:14 Ketara wrote:
Is it?
What does Zeds burst combo look like? Let's actually do some math for this. If you keep this up; people will think you're asian. + Show Spoiler +unless of course you are?
HEY.
Some of us white devils also love math.
ALSO:
METEOS just confirmed as my favorite LCS player. Avril's Skater Boy come on "I love this song"
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Oh I'm totally super Asian. Ask Neo, he's met me.
I think Bilgewater Cutlass is another thing entirely. It's just painfully, painfully good for an early game laning item, it gives you everything you could possibly want.
In a lot of cases I think the ideal thing to be doing is probably building the Cutlass early and not finishing the BotRK until you have a bunch of other items.
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On July 03 2013 12:11 Ketara wrote:
I dun' kno how 2 spreadsheetz
Like seriously, I'm a nub.
Is EZPZ AD Corki
First make a spreadsheet of all the givens.
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On July 03 2013 12:19 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:11 Ketara wrote:
I dun' kno how 2 spreadsheetz
Like seriously, I'm a nub. Is EZPZ AD Corki First make a spreadsheet of all the givens.
If you want to make a spreadsheet you must first create the universe.
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On July 03 2013 12:20 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:19 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:11 Ketara wrote:
I dun' kno how 2 spreadsheetz
Like seriously, I'm a nub. Is EZPZ AD Corki First make a spreadsheet of all the givens. If you want to make a spreadsheet you must first create the universe.
+ Show Spoiler +
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EPT
