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On July 03 2013 12:20 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:19 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:11 Ketara wrote:
I dun' kno how 2 spreadsheetz
Like seriously, I'm a nub. Is EZPZ AD Corki First make a spreadsheet of all the givens. If you want to make a spreadsheet you must first create the universe.
Then his universe will expand forever and forever, untill it pulls itself together and creates itself again.
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On July 03 2013 12:18 Ketara wrote:
Oh I'm totally super Asian. Ask Neo, he's met me.
I think Bilgewater Cutlass is another thing entirely. It's just painfully, painfully good for an early game laning item, it gives you everything you could possibly want.
In a lot of cases I think the ideal thing to be doing is probably building the Cutlass early and not finishing the BotRK until you have a bunch of other items.
If you're not going to get Bork early, you might as well not get it at all. Bork's strongest point is ironically in the early/mid game rather than the late-game it was purportedly designed for. Early on, the 15% max hp nuke will outscale your autos and whatever bonus damage you'd get from AD ratios. Also due to multiplicative scaling of crits and the AD ratios, the % hp shred is more meaningful than raw AD early in the game, whereas late game when you have more AD/Crit chance, crit/AD ratios benefit more from raw AD than the % hp shred.
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On July 03 2013 12:27 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:18 Ketara wrote:
Oh I'm totally super Asian. Ask Neo, he's met me.
I think Bilgewater Cutlass is another thing entirely. It's just painfully, painfully good for an early game laning item, it gives you everything you could possibly want.
In a lot of cases I think the ideal thing to be doing is probably building the Cutlass early and not finishing the BotRK until you have a bunch of other items. If you're not going to get Bork early, you might as well not get it at all. Bork's strongest point is ironically in the early/mid game rather than the late-game it was purportedly designed for. Early on, the 15% max hp nuke will outscale your autos and due to multiplicative scaling of crits and the AD ratios on your abilities, the % hp shred is more meaningful than raw AD.
Are you going to tell me what a typical Zed burst damage combo is? I am kind of waiting.
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On July 03 2013 12:28 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:18 Ketara wrote:
Oh I'm totally super Asian. Ask Neo, he's met me.
I think Bilgewater Cutlass is another thing entirely. It's just painfully, painfully good for an early game laning item, it gives you everything you could possibly want.
In a lot of cases I think the ideal thing to be doing is probably building the Cutlass early and not finishing the BotRK until you have a bunch of other items. If you're not going to get Bork early, you might as well not get it at all. Bork's strongest point is ironically in the early/mid game rather than the late-game it was purportedly designed for. Early on, the 15% max hp nuke will outscale your autos and due to multiplicative scaling of crits and the AD ratios on your abilities, the % hp shred is more meaningful than raw AD. Are you going to tell me what a typical Zed burst damage combo is? I am kind of waiting.
R->Q+E+Bork->auto(s)->R proc; in the mid game, having just Bork+BC/LW is enough to kill a squishy with your full combo.
While Hydra effectively gives you an extra auto with the active, Bork's sticking power also lets you get in more auto attacks. It's not unreasonable that Bork's sticking power will let you get off 1~3 auto attack(s), while due to how Hydra's active works, you'll likely only get what effectively comes out to 2 autos. The difference is that Bork also has that extra nuke. Which is why I said unless your auto attacks outscale 15% of the target's max HP, which won't be til late game, Bork is very likely going to out damage Hydra.
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On July 03 2013 12:20 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:19 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:11 Ketara wrote:
I dun' kno how 2 spreadsheetz
Like seriously, I'm a nub. Is EZPZ AD Corki First make a spreadsheet of all the givens. If you want to make a spreadsheet you must first create the universe.
Instructions unclear. Now worshipped by several quintillion beings in a miniuniverse on my desk.
Just fill this in as much as you can:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtekUM_l-4IzdE5ZZUttRlBZRXBobE5sTWJCSFZvbUE&usp=sharing
Next step is to add formulas and copy and paste those formulas to all nearby cells
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I mean, there's a reason basically every single pro that plays Zed gets Bork, not Hydra. I doubt the Asians would still be doing the Bork/BC/LW build every single Zed game if Hydra really was more optimal.
You can't neglect the fact that Bork slows your enemy and speeds you up by 30% for 4 seconds, while Hydra's animation effectively keeps you still for its (variable) duration.
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On July 03 2013 12:33 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:28 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 12:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:18 Ketara wrote:
Oh I'm totally super Asian. Ask Neo, he's met me.
I think Bilgewater Cutlass is another thing entirely. It's just painfully, painfully good for an early game laning item, it gives you everything you could possibly want.
In a lot of cases I think the ideal thing to be doing is probably building the Cutlass early and not finishing the BotRK until you have a bunch of other items. If you're not going to get Bork early, you might as well not get it at all. Bork's strongest point is ironically in the early/mid game rather than the late-game it was purportedly designed for. Early on, the 15% max hp nuke will outscale your autos and due to multiplicative scaling of crits and the AD ratios on your abilities, the % hp shred is more meaningful than raw AD. Are you going to tell me what a typical Zed burst damage combo is? I am kind of waiting. R->Q+E+Bork->auto(s)->R proc; in the mid game, having just Bork+BC/LW is enough to kill a squishy with your full combo. While Hydra effectively gives you an extra auto with the active, Bork's sticking power also lets you get in more auto attacks. It's not unreasonable that Bork's sticking power will let you get off 1~3 auto attack(s), while due to how Hydra's active works, you'll likely only get what effectively comes out to 2 autos. The difference is that Bork also has that extra nuke. Which is why I said unless your auto attacks outscale 15% of the target's max HP, which won't be til late game, Bork is very likely going to out damage Hydra.
assuming your living shadow Shuriken misses it would take 1400 health pre Hydra active if they have flash up (can't E twice) or 1800 health if they don't have flash up (E twice) for BotRK to do as much damage as Hydra in a combo, not counting the active or W AD amplification. Pretty sure BotRK is overrated on Zed.
This is from ratios alone. also on ult unless they flash instantly you get the double E slow (when your shadow and you both hit with E you get 50% additional slow) so the slow on BotRK is really nothing to write home about here
honestly the only situation where BotrK has a chance to outdamage Hydra is if they flash instantly.
pls stop being so anecdotal.
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On July 03 2013 12:33 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:28 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 12:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:18 Ketara wrote:
Oh I'm totally super Asian. Ask Neo, he's met me.
I think Bilgewater Cutlass is another thing entirely. It's just painfully, painfully good for an early game laning item, it gives you everything you could possibly want.
In a lot of cases I think the ideal thing to be doing is probably building the Cutlass early and not finishing the BotRK until you have a bunch of other items. If you're not going to get Bork early, you might as well not get it at all. Bork's strongest point is ironically in the early/mid game rather than the late-game it was purportedly designed for. Early on, the 15% max hp nuke will outscale your autos and due to multiplicative scaling of crits and the AD ratios on your abilities, the % hp shred is more meaningful than raw AD. Are you going to tell me what a typical Zed burst damage combo is? I am kind of waiting. R->Q+E+Bork->auto(s)->R proc; in the mid game, having just Bork+BC/LW is enough to kill a squishy with your full combo. While Hydra effectively gives you an extra auto with the active, Bork's sticking power also lets you get in more auto attacks. It's not unreasonable that Bork's sticking power will let you get off 1~3 auto attack(s), while due to how Hydra's active works, you'll effectively get 2 autos. The difference is that Bork also has that extra nuke. Which is why I said unless your auto attacks outscale 15% of the target's max HP, which won't be til late game, Bork is very likely going to out damage Hydra.
Okay, lets check this out. I'm going to make this really really simple.
This combo is 100% AD (ult) + 150% bonus AD (2 shurikens hitting) + 80% bonus AD (E) + 1 auto lets say, for a total of 430% AD.
Hydra has 52.5 more AD than BotRK with Living Shadow.
It's doing 225.75 more damage in the combo.
In order for the BotRK active to do 225.75 damage, the target has to have at least 1500 HP.
But wait, lets say for that 3200g, I instead got a Tiamat and a Bilgewater Cutlass. This is totalling me 65 AD and the Bilgewater active.
That extra AD + the Bilgewater active is totalling 280.6 more damage in the combo.
In order for the BotRK active to do 280.6 damage, the target has to have at least 1875 HP.
It is also worth noting that the extra AD on the autoattacks is going to outdamage the BotRK passive effects, and I have completely ignored the Tiamat cleave active. The more autoattacks you get, the worse BotRK is going to be.
Unless you are telling me that your early game burst targets have more than 1875 max HP, it appears that the most damage per 3200g for Zed is actually going to be Tiamat+Bilgewater Cutlass. Shock and gasp!
PS: Apologies for not using that sexy spreadsheet, I'm doing this in the middle of packing for my trip tomorrow and don't have enough brainpower to use a sexy spreadsheet. SRY SRY SRY
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On July 03 2013 12:33 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:28 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 12:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:18 Ketara wrote:
Oh I'm totally super Asian. Ask Neo, he's met me.
I think Bilgewater Cutlass is another thing entirely. It's just painfully, painfully good for an early game laning item, it gives you everything you could possibly want.
In a lot of cases I think the ideal thing to be doing is probably building the Cutlass early and not finishing the BotRK until you have a bunch of other items. If you're not going to get Bork early, you might as well not get it at all. Bork's strongest point is ironically in the early/mid game rather than the late-game it was purportedly designed for. Early on, the 15% max hp nuke will outscale your autos and due to multiplicative scaling of crits and the AD ratios on your abilities, the % hp shred is more meaningful than raw AD. Are you going to tell me what a typical Zed burst damage combo is? I am kind of waiting. R->Q+E+Bork->auto(s)->R proc; in the mid game, having just Bork+BC/LW is enough to kill a squishy with your full combo. While Hydra effectively gives you an extra auto with the active, Bork's sticking power also lets you get in more auto attacks. It's not unreasonable that Bork's sticking power will let you get off 1~3 auto attack(s), while due to how Hydra's active works, you'll likely only get what effectively comes out to 2 autos. The difference is that Bork also has that extra nuke. Which is why I said unless your auto attacks outscale 15% of the target's max HP, which won't be til late game, Bork is very likely going to out damage Hydra.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying and do think that Bork is the tits on any champion who autoattacks in a fight,
but it seems really odd that you keep comparing the 60s cd active of Bork to the 10s cd active of Hydra in terms of damage. I'm sure that in a first-completed-item laning situation, there are many cases where the Hydra would lead to more won trades than Bork for get-in get-out champions like Lee
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On July 03 2013 12:38 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:33 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:28 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 12:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:18 Ketara wrote:
Oh I'm totally super Asian. Ask Neo, he's met me.
I think Bilgewater Cutlass is another thing entirely. It's just painfully, painfully good for an early game laning item, it gives you everything you could possibly want.
In a lot of cases I think the ideal thing to be doing is probably building the Cutlass early and not finishing the BotRK until you have a bunch of other items. If you're not going to get Bork early, you might as well not get it at all. Bork's strongest point is ironically in the early/mid game rather than the late-game it was purportedly designed for. Early on, the 15% max hp nuke will outscale your autos and due to multiplicative scaling of crits and the AD ratios on your abilities, the % hp shred is more meaningful than raw AD. Are you going to tell me what a typical Zed burst damage combo is? I am kind of waiting. R->Q+E+Bork->auto(s)->R proc; in the mid game, having just Bork+BC/LW is enough to kill a squishy with your full combo. While Hydra effectively gives you an extra auto with the active, Bork's sticking power also lets you get in more auto attacks. It's not unreasonable that Bork's sticking power will let you get off 1~3 auto attack(s), while due to how Hydra's active works, you'll likely only get what effectively comes out to 2 autos. The difference is that Bork also has that extra nuke. Which is why I said unless your auto attacks outscale 15% of the target's max HP, which won't be til late game, Bork is very likely going to out damage Hydra. assuming your living shadow Shuriken misses it would take 1400 health pre Hydra active if they have flash up (can't E twice) or 1800 health if they don't have flash up (E twice) for BotRK to do as much damage as Hydra in a combo, not counting the active or W AD amplification. Pretty sure BotRK is overrated on Zed. This is from ratios alone. also on ult unless they flash instantly you get the double E slow (when your shadow and you both hit with E you get 50% additional slow) so the slow on BotRK is really nothing to write home about here honestly the only situation where BotrK has a chance to outdamage Hydra is if they flash instantly. pls stop being so anecdotal.
How am I being anecdotal? Lol do you even know what anecdotal means? Anecdotal was you telling me about your Hydra Wukong build and how it works.
I also can't follow your math explanation. First of all, your E can't hit twice. From the skill description: "Overlapping Shadow Slashes striking the same enemy deal no additional damage but will apply a stronger slow and restore energy based on the level of Living Shadow."
Oops math wrong
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On July 03 2013 12:50 Flakes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:33 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:28 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 12:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:18 Ketara wrote:
Oh I'm totally super Asian. Ask Neo, he's met me.
I think Bilgewater Cutlass is another thing entirely. It's just painfully, painfully good for an early game laning item, it gives you everything you could possibly want.
In a lot of cases I think the ideal thing to be doing is probably building the Cutlass early and not finishing the BotRK until you have a bunch of other items. If you're not going to get Bork early, you might as well not get it at all. Bork's strongest point is ironically in the early/mid game rather than the late-game it was purportedly designed for. Early on, the 15% max hp nuke will outscale your autos and due to multiplicative scaling of crits and the AD ratios on your abilities, the % hp shred is more meaningful than raw AD. Are you going to tell me what a typical Zed burst damage combo is? I am kind of waiting. R->Q+E+Bork->auto(s)->R proc; in the mid game, having just Bork+BC/LW is enough to kill a squishy with your full combo. While Hydra effectively gives you an extra auto with the active, Bork's sticking power also lets you get in more auto attacks. It's not unreasonable that Bork's sticking power will let you get off 1~3 auto attack(s), while due to how Hydra's active works, you'll likely only get what effectively comes out to 2 autos. The difference is that Bork also has that extra nuke. Which is why I said unless your auto attacks outscale 15% of the target's max HP, which won't be til late game, Bork is very likely going to out damage Hydra. I agree with a lot of what you're saying and do think that Bork is the tits on any champion who autoattacks in a fight, but it seems really odd that you keep comparing the 60s cd active of Bork to the 10s cd active of Hydra in terms of damage. I'm sure that in a first-completed-item laning situation, there are many cases where the Hydra would lead to more won trades than Bork for get-in get-out champions like Lee
in this case the cd is irrelevant because you play Zed for the Ult
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On July 03 2013 12:52 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:38 Slusher wrote:On July 03 2013 12:33 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:28 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 12:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:18 Ketara wrote:
Oh I'm totally super Asian. Ask Neo, he's met me.
I think Bilgewater Cutlass is another thing entirely. It's just painfully, painfully good for an early game laning item, it gives you everything you could possibly want.
In a lot of cases I think the ideal thing to be doing is probably building the Cutlass early and not finishing the BotRK until you have a bunch of other items. If you're not going to get Bork early, you might as well not get it at all. Bork's strongest point is ironically in the early/mid game rather than the late-game it was purportedly designed for. Early on, the 15% max hp nuke will outscale your autos and due to multiplicative scaling of crits and the AD ratios on your abilities, the % hp shred is more meaningful than raw AD. Are you going to tell me what a typical Zed burst damage combo is? I am kind of waiting. R->Q+E+Bork->auto(s)->R proc; in the mid game, having just Bork+BC/LW is enough to kill a squishy with your full combo. While Hydra effectively gives you an extra auto with the active, Bork's sticking power also lets you get in more auto attacks. It's not unreasonable that Bork's sticking power will let you get off 1~3 auto attack(s), while due to how Hydra's active works, you'll likely only get what effectively comes out to 2 autos. The difference is that Bork also has that extra nuke. Which is why I said unless your auto attacks outscale 15% of the target's max HP, which won't be til late game, Bork is very likely going to out damage Hydra. assuming your living shadow Shuriken misses it would take 1400 health pre Hydra active if they have flash up (can't E twice) or 1800 health if they don't have flash up (E twice) for BotRK to do as much damage as Hydra in a combo, not counting the active or W AD amplification. Pretty sure BotRK is overrated on Zed. This is from ratios alone. also on ult unless they flash instantly you get the double E slow (when your shadow and you both hit with E you get 50% additional slow) so the slow on BotRK is really nothing to write home about here honestly the only situation where BotrK has a chance to outdamage Hydra is if they flash instantly. pls stop being so anecdotal. How am I being anecdotal? Lol do you even know what anecdotal means? Anecdotal was you telling me about your Hydra Wukong build and how it works. I also can't follow your math explanation. First of all, your E can't hit twice. From the skill description: "Overlapping Shadow Slashes striking the same enemy deal no additional damage but will apply a stronger slow and restore energy based on the level of Living Shadow." Secondly, I fail to see how 50 extra AD is going to outscale a 15% max hp nuke. The 50 extra AD, assuming you hit everything except the Hydra active will come out to 266 damage. This means that the enemy needs to have less than 1181 hp for just the difference in AD to favor Hydra (that number is so low because you have to keep in mind that the nuke from Bork is also amplified). Adding in the Hydra active is trickier since I'm saying that one of the key benefits of Bork is that it lets you get in more autos, not only because of the slow, but also because of the speed boost. But lets say you don't auto attack at all in either scenario and only use Hydra active. Hydra will deal 469 damage. Meaning the target will need less than 2084 hp for it to favor Hydra.
thats my mistake I thought E comes off cd if you use it at the start.
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The extra damage from the AD is also amplified.
saying it must be good because pros do it is anecdotal. My story from earlier was not only unrelated to this argument but aimed at receiving constructive criticism which was met with Wu's E is good at pushing at which point I just don't value your opinion on the champion.
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On July 03 2013 12:52 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:38 Slusher wrote:On July 03 2013 12:33 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:28 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 12:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:18 Ketara wrote:
Oh I'm totally super Asian. Ask Neo, he's met me.
I think Bilgewater Cutlass is another thing entirely. It's just painfully, painfully good for an early game laning item, it gives you everything you could possibly want.
In a lot of cases I think the ideal thing to be doing is probably building the Cutlass early and not finishing the BotRK until you have a bunch of other items. If you're not going to get Bork early, you might as well not get it at all. Bork's strongest point is ironically in the early/mid game rather than the late-game it was purportedly designed for. Early on, the 15% max hp nuke will outscale your autos and due to multiplicative scaling of crits and the AD ratios on your abilities, the % hp shred is more meaningful than raw AD. Are you going to tell me what a typical Zed burst damage combo is? I am kind of waiting. R->Q+E+Bork->auto(s)->R proc; in the mid game, having just Bork+BC/LW is enough to kill a squishy with your full combo. While Hydra effectively gives you an extra auto with the active, Bork's sticking power also lets you get in more auto attacks. It's not unreasonable that Bork's sticking power will let you get off 1~3 auto attack(s), while due to how Hydra's active works, you'll likely only get what effectively comes out to 2 autos. The difference is that Bork also has that extra nuke. Which is why I said unless your auto attacks outscale 15% of the target's max HP, which won't be til late game, Bork is very likely going to out damage Hydra. assuming your living shadow Shuriken misses it would take 1400 health pre Hydra active if they have flash up (can't E twice) or 1800 health if they don't have flash up (E twice) for BotRK to do as much damage as Hydra in a combo, not counting the active or W AD amplification. Pretty sure BotRK is overrated on Zed. This is from ratios alone. also on ult unless they flash instantly you get the double E slow (when your shadow and you both hit with E you get 50% additional slow) so the slow on BotRK is really nothing to write home about here honestly the only situation where BotrK has a chance to outdamage Hydra is if they flash instantly. pls stop being so anecdotal. How am I being anecdotal? Lol do you even know what anecdotal means? Anecdotal was you telling me about your Hydra Wukong build and how it works. I also can't follow your math explanation. First of all, your E can't hit twice. From the skill description: "Overlapping Shadow Slashes striking the same enemy deal no additional damage but will apply a stronger slow and restore energy based on the level of Living Shadow." Secondly, I fail to see how 50 extra AD is going to outscale a 15% max hp nuke. The 50 extra AD, assuming you hit everything except the Hydra active will come out to 266 damage. This means that the enemy needs to have less than 1181 hp for just the difference in AD to favor Hydra (that number is so low because you have to keep in mind that the nuke from Bork is also amplified). Adding in the Hydra active is trickier since I'm saying that one of the key benefits of Bork is that it lets you get in more autos, not only because of the slow, but also because of the speed boost. But lets say you don't auto attack at all in either scenario and only use Hydra active. Hydra will deal 469 damage. Meaning the target will need less than 2084 hp for it to favor Hydra. Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:50 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 12:33 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:28 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 12:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:18 Ketara wrote:
Oh I'm totally super Asian. Ask Neo, he's met me.
I think Bilgewater Cutlass is another thing entirely. It's just painfully, painfully good for an early game laning item, it gives you everything you could possibly want.
In a lot of cases I think the ideal thing to be doing is probably building the Cutlass early and not finishing the BotRK until you have a bunch of other items. If you're not going to get Bork early, you might as well not get it at all. Bork's strongest point is ironically in the early/mid game rather than the late-game it was purportedly designed for. Early on, the 15% max hp nuke will outscale your autos and due to multiplicative scaling of crits and the AD ratios on your abilities, the % hp shred is more meaningful than raw AD. Are you going to tell me what a typical Zed burst damage combo is? I am kind of waiting. R->Q+E+Bork->auto(s)->R proc; in the mid game, having just Bork+BC/LW is enough to kill a squishy with your full combo. While Hydra effectively gives you an extra auto with the active, Bork's sticking power also lets you get in more auto attacks. It's not unreasonable that Bork's sticking power will let you get off 1~3 auto attack(s), while due to how Hydra's active works, you'll effectively get 2 autos. The difference is that Bork also has that extra nuke. Which is why I said unless your auto attacks outscale 15% of the target's max HP, which won't be til late game, Bork is very likely going to out damage Hydra. Okay, lets check this out. I'm going to make this really really simple. This combo is 100% AD (ult) + 150% bonus AD (2 shurikens hitting) + 80% bonus AD (E) + 1 auto lets say, for a total of 430% AD. Hydra has 52.5 more AD than BotRK with Living Shadow. It's doing 225.75 more damage in the combo. In order for the BotRK active to do 225.75 damage, the target has to have at least 1500 HP. But wait, lets say for that 3200g, I instead got a Tiamat and a Bilgewater Cutlass. This is totalling me 65 AD and the Bilgewater active. That extra AD + the Bilgewater active is totalling 280.6 more damage in the combo. In order for the BotRK active to do 280.6 damage, the target has to have at least 1875 HP. It is also worth noting that the extra AD on the autoattacks is going to outdamage the BotRK passive effects, and I have completely ignored the Tiamat cleave active. The more autoattacks you get, the worse BotRK is going to be. Unless you are telling me that your early game burst targets have more than 1875 max HP, it appears that the most damage per 3200g for Zed is actually going to be Tiamat+Bilgewater Cutlass. Shock and gasp! PS: Apologies for not using that sexy spreadsheet, I'm doing this in the middle of packing for my trip tomorrow and don't have enough brainpower to use a sexy spreadsheet. SRY SRY SRY I don't think you're accounting for the amplification of Bork's damage.
The amplification is 20% of all damage caused. The amplification from the extra AD on Tiamat-etc is going to be the same as the amplification from the BotRK active. It does not need to be factored in.
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On July 03 2013 12:52 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:50 Flakes wrote:On July 03 2013 12:33 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:28 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 12:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:18 Ketara wrote:
Oh I'm totally super Asian. Ask Neo, he's met me.
I think Bilgewater Cutlass is another thing entirely. It's just painfully, painfully good for an early game laning item, it gives you everything you could possibly want.
In a lot of cases I think the ideal thing to be doing is probably building the Cutlass early and not finishing the BotRK until you have a bunch of other items. If you're not going to get Bork early, you might as well not get it at all. Bork's strongest point is ironically in the early/mid game rather than the late-game it was purportedly designed for. Early on, the 15% max hp nuke will outscale your autos and due to multiplicative scaling of crits and the AD ratios on your abilities, the % hp shred is more meaningful than raw AD. Are you going to tell me what a typical Zed burst damage combo is? I am kind of waiting. R->Q+E+Bork->auto(s)->R proc; in the mid game, having just Bork+BC/LW is enough to kill a squishy with your full combo. While Hydra effectively gives you an extra auto with the active, Bork's sticking power also lets you get in more auto attacks. It's not unreasonable that Bork's sticking power will let you get off 1~3 auto attack(s), while due to how Hydra's active works, you'll likely only get what effectively comes out to 2 autos. The difference is that Bork also has that extra nuke. Which is why I said unless your auto attacks outscale 15% of the target's max HP, which won't be til late game, Bork is very likely going to out damage Hydra. I agree with a lot of what you're saying and do think that Bork is the tits on any champion who autoattacks in a fight, but it seems really odd that you keep comparing the 60s cd active of Bork to the 10s cd active of Hydra in terms of damage. I'm sure that in a first-completed-item laning situation, there are many cases where the Hydra would lead to more won trades than Bork for get-in get-out champions like Lee in this case the cd is irrelevant because you play Zed for the Ult
Eh I was referring to that an previous arguments like + Show Spoiler +
There's no denying that Hydra increases your burst. The question is whether or not it's better than the alternatives. In the most cases, it's not.
When you're playing a non-stomp game, you're not going to have all the gold in the world to buy everything you want. You have to prioritize. When you're on a burst champion, Bork is going to be better than Hydra for burst almost all the time. Bork active is 15% of the enemy's max health, while Hydra active is 1 auto attack. Unless one of your auto attacks are doing >15% of the target's max HP, which won't be until late game when you get 300+ AD, Bork is going to outperform Hydra in burst. Bork also has the slow/speed effect which helps you kill your target. Hydra makes you stand in place for however long your auto animation is.
After Bork, you're probably going to want some armor pen because at that point everyone is going to start having significant amounts of armor, meaning armor pen is going to outscale raw AD. Which is when you're going to want BC/LW.
So basically you're going to be getting Hydra after Bork+BC/LW, at which point this discussion is rather moot. After that point, any of the top tier assassins will be able to one-shot any squishy target and will have a decently hard time combo-ing a tanky target regardless if you build BT or Hydra. But let's say you do want to fight a tanky target. At this point, BT is arguably better than Hydra since, generally speaking more lifesteal+more raw AD for autos means you do better in sustained fights.
but in reading earlier posts I guess he made an exception for Lee which would include other champions with similar kits/situations (I think Hydra would be better on Renekton as well)
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On July 03 2013 12:58 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:52 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:38 Slusher wrote:On July 03 2013 12:33 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:28 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 12:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:18 Ketara wrote:
Oh I'm totally super Asian. Ask Neo, he's met me.
I think Bilgewater Cutlass is another thing entirely. It's just painfully, painfully good for an early game laning item, it gives you everything you could possibly want.
In a lot of cases I think the ideal thing to be doing is probably building the Cutlass early and not finishing the BotRK until you have a bunch of other items. If you're not going to get Bork early, you might as well not get it at all. Bork's strongest point is ironically in the early/mid game rather than the late-game it was purportedly designed for. Early on, the 15% max hp nuke will outscale your autos and due to multiplicative scaling of crits and the AD ratios on your abilities, the % hp shred is more meaningful than raw AD. Are you going to tell me what a typical Zed burst damage combo is? I am kind of waiting. R->Q+E+Bork->auto(s)->R proc; in the mid game, having just Bork+BC/LW is enough to kill a squishy with your full combo. While Hydra effectively gives you an extra auto with the active, Bork's sticking power also lets you get in more auto attacks. It's not unreasonable that Bork's sticking power will let you get off 1~3 auto attack(s), while due to how Hydra's active works, you'll likely only get what effectively comes out to 2 autos. The difference is that Bork also has that extra nuke. Which is why I said unless your auto attacks outscale 15% of the target's max HP, which won't be til late game, Bork is very likely going to out damage Hydra. assuming your living shadow Shuriken misses it would take 1400 health pre Hydra active if they have flash up (can't E twice) or 1800 health if they don't have flash up (E twice) for BotRK to do as much damage as Hydra in a combo, not counting the active or W AD amplification. Pretty sure BotRK is overrated on Zed. This is from ratios alone. also on ult unless they flash instantly you get the double E slow (when your shadow and you both hit with E you get 50% additional slow) so the slow on BotRK is really nothing to write home about here honestly the only situation where BotrK has a chance to outdamage Hydra is if they flash instantly. pls stop being so anecdotal. How am I being anecdotal? Lol do you even know what anecdotal means? Anecdotal was you telling me about your Hydra Wukong build and how it works. I also can't follow your math explanation. First of all, your E can't hit twice. From the skill description: "Overlapping Shadow Slashes striking the same enemy deal no additional damage but will apply a stronger slow and restore energy based on the level of Living Shadow." Secondly, I fail to see how 50 extra AD is going to outscale a 15% max hp nuke. The 50 extra AD, assuming you hit everything except the Hydra active will come out to 266 damage. This means that the enemy needs to have less than 1181 hp for just the difference in AD to favor Hydra (that number is so low because you have to keep in mind that the nuke from Bork is also amplified). Adding in the Hydra active is trickier since I'm saying that one of the key benefits of Bork is that it lets you get in more autos, not only because of the slow, but also because of the speed boost. But lets say you don't auto attack at all in either scenario and only use Hydra active. Hydra will deal 469 damage. Meaning the target will need less than 2084 hp for it to favor Hydra. On July 03 2013 12:50 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 12:33 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:28 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 12:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 12:18 Ketara wrote:
Oh I'm totally super Asian. Ask Neo, he's met me.
I think Bilgewater Cutlass is another thing entirely. It's just painfully, painfully good for an early game laning item, it gives you everything you could possibly want.
In a lot of cases I think the ideal thing to be doing is probably building the Cutlass early and not finishing the BotRK until you have a bunch of other items. If you're not going to get Bork early, you might as well not get it at all. Bork's strongest point is ironically in the early/mid game rather than the late-game it was purportedly designed for. Early on, the 15% max hp nuke will outscale your autos and due to multiplicative scaling of crits and the AD ratios on your abilities, the % hp shred is more meaningful than raw AD. Are you going to tell me what a typical Zed burst damage combo is? I am kind of waiting. R->Q+E+Bork->auto(s)->R proc; in the mid game, having just Bork+BC/LW is enough to kill a squishy with your full combo. While Hydra effectively gives you an extra auto with the active, Bork's sticking power also lets you get in more auto attacks. It's not unreasonable that Bork's sticking power will let you get off 1~3 auto attack(s), while due to how Hydra's active works, you'll effectively get 2 autos. The difference is that Bork also has that extra nuke. Which is why I said unless your auto attacks outscale 15% of the target's max HP, which won't be til late game, Bork is very likely going to out damage Hydra. Okay, lets check this out. I'm going to make this really really simple. This combo is 100% AD (ult) + 150% bonus AD (2 shurikens hitting) + 80% bonus AD (E) + 1 auto lets say, for a total of 430% AD. Hydra has 52.5 more AD than BotRK with Living Shadow. It's doing 225.75 more damage in the combo. In order for the BotRK active to do 225.75 damage, the target has to have at least 1500 HP. But wait, lets say for that 3200g, I instead got a Tiamat and a Bilgewater Cutlass. This is totalling me 65 AD and the Bilgewater active. That extra AD + the Bilgewater active is totalling 280.6 more damage in the combo. In order for the BotRK active to do 280.6 damage, the target has to have at least 1875 HP. It is also worth noting that the extra AD on the autoattacks is going to outdamage the BotRK passive effects, and I have completely ignored the Tiamat cleave active. The more autoattacks you get, the worse BotRK is going to be. Unless you are telling me that your early game burst targets have more than 1875 max HP, it appears that the most damage per 3200g for Zed is actually going to be Tiamat+Bilgewater Cutlass. Shock and gasp! PS: Apologies for not using that sexy spreadsheet, I'm doing this in the middle of packing for my trip tomorrow and don't have enough brainpower to use a sexy spreadsheet. SRY SRY SRY I don't think you're accounting for the amplification of Bork's damage. The amplification is 20% of all damage caused. The amplification from the extra AD on Tiamat-etc is going to be the same as the amplification from the BotRK active. It does not need to be factored in.
It's 50% but I see what you mean. Nm you're using rank 1 ult but it doesn't matter.
I have no idea about the efficacy of Tiamat+Cutlass. But you yourself showed that Hydra is inferior to Bork at breakpoints of 1500 hp (which would possibly be lower due to Bork also doing bonus damage based on target's current hp; this is probably negligible though). Also operating under the assumption that you get the same amount of autos with Bork as with Hydra, which is not necessarily the case due to other factors like flash in which case the speed boost from Bork is much more valuable.
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The extra passive damage on BotRK is worthless because it's going to be less than 50 damage per hit, which is what your autos are doing by just having more AD on Tiamat.
But yes, the real question for Zed appears to be how many autoattacks do you get during the 3 second death mark, and does the extra slow / faster ASPD on BotRK allow you to get extra autos.
However, I'd be willing to bet, although I think I'm mathed out for one evening, that the very most bestest optimum damage for 3200g on Zed is actually going to be Bilgewater Cutlass + Brutalizer + a Longsword. Bilgewater + Brutalizer probably outdamages BotRK for less money. Armor pen is pretty good.
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On July 03 2013 13:10 Ketara wrote:
The extra passive damage on BotRK is worthless because it's going to be less than 50 damage per hit, which is what your autos are doing by just having more AD on Tiamat.
But yes, the real question for Zed appears to be how many autoattacks do you get during the 3 second death mark, and does the extra slow / faster ASPD on BotRK allow you to get extra autos.
However, I'd be willing to bet, although I think I'm mathed out for one evening, that the very most bestest optimum damage for 3200g on Zed is actually going to be Bilgewater Cutlass + Brutalizer + a Longsword. Bilgewater + Brutalizer probably outdamages BotRK for less money. Armor pen is pretty good.
I think a decent amount of Asian Zeds actually do get Brutalizer before finishing Bork.
Regardless, none of you have addressed my point about itemization priority. On paper, Hydra is a great item. In practice, it's not optimal in many cases with a few exceptions because of the fact that it's just so awkward to build. Tiamat is not a very good item and a large chunk of Hydra's cost is from Tiamat. If you get rush Tiamat/Hydra, it's sub-optimal in a lot of cases because other items are better at that stage in the game. You can't really get it 2nd or 3rd because you need armor pen. Also, Tiamat rushing likely hurts you more than anything because if you rush Tiamat first item the cleave passive isn't going to be significant enough for you to completely shove the wave to their tower. It'll more likely result in you being in an awkward position right outside their tower if they know how to freeze the lane properly.
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BT actually has LESS burst than hydra. Hydra's active is an extra 100% AD nuke which works well in lee sin's combo (it even gives flurry!) 25 extra AD of BT is only ~125 damage (pre-mitigation) to Lee's full combo, while the hydra active is ~150-200 damage.
Also, it lets you literally instantly clear any size creep wave at basically any point in the game, which opens up a lot more roaming options.
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